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snotty	Posted - 2003.07.26 01:06:00 - [1] hi, every time im aproaching a station or stargate i see this weird pattern flickering over the station, from far away it are dark lines or patches that move over the station (the amarr one's have it) and closer up the pattern becomes "smaller" and "denser" untill it is almost not noticable anymore. I fiddled around with some settings and have not been able to get any difference. Any1 know how to fix it?
Daemun Khanid	Posted - 2003.07.26 01:28:00 - [2] Good news is you're not the only one with the problem. Bad news is there is no known fix. Until they fix it in a patch we just have to ignore it. VADM. Daemun of Khanid
Entity	Posted - 2003.07.26 02:24:00 - [3] I get the same sort of glitching in some other games on my GeForce 2 GTS. For ex. in Q3, although it's not really apparent until you try some Terrain maps, or some of the base maps in Team Arena expansion. I think it has to do with the Z-Buffer not being 32 bit, but then, I only read that somewhere and that might as well be complete bull :-)
snotty	Posted - 2003.07.26 21:51:00 - [4] Edited by: snotty on 26/07/2003 22:37:43 about that 16 bit/ 24 bit z-buffer thing, i did some reading up on it and i noticed that it only affected open-gl games and according some stories it does not affect direct-3d games. It had something to do with a "bug that occured when you do a call to reserve a stencil buffer (8 bit) and after that a z-buffer (32 bit), the z-buffer call returns then a 16 bit buffer in stead of a 24 or 32 bit one. Ah, well, the realy weird thing was that the stories were about the GF4 and the GF3 and FX does not have it. I just upgraded from a GF3 to a FX5900 and both cards have this bug, to bad i dont have a ATI card at hand to check if they have it also.. looks more like a LOD defect then a texturing defect ...
Daemun Khanid	Posted - 2003.07.27 04:39:00 - [5] Ati has it aswell. VADM. Daemun of Khanid
Destro Temblin	Posted - 2003.07.27 11:08:00 - [6] Edited by: Destro Temblin on 27/07/2003 11:08:31 Yea, I get it badly on my 9700pro, I've tried every option on the driver setup with no success, so I think it must be an Eve problem.
DeltaFlux	Posted - 2003.08.02 00:29:00 - [7] It's definitely a z-buffer issue, could be resolution (16-bit maybe) or simply the range of the z-buffer being so large (i.e. stretching from your ship all the way to the edge of the solar system) that it's not accurate enough. Seems to happen with most or all cards. I reported it ages ago and never heard anything, I guess it's not high on CCPs list. Try going to another region, some gates /stations flicker more than others. No signature... yet.
darkk	Posted - 2003.08.17 06:54:00 - [8] but this is a heavy graphic bug, how its possible that this isnt on first place on list. and why did the devs never respond to this threads, r they ignoring it ? a simple "we know this problem and working on it" would be good ... eve looks terrible with it
Destro Temblin	Posted - 2003.08.18 13:28:00 - [9] agree with above - even just an acknowledgement of the problem would be a start -
Ivy Wynter	Posted - 2003.08.18 22:18:00 - [10] I have ATI Radeon Mobility 7500. Same textures problem as well, though it occurs in space, mainly around the sides of the graphical box that surrounds your ship and view. I have some minimal station texture flickering and some minor problems with portraits like eyes, clothing textures, and some details. Hope it gets fixed sometime. On the knowledgebase they say the problem is from drivers.
noise	Posted - 2003.08.19 07:37:00 - [11] My GeForce 4 Go has the same problem on my laptop, on all resoultions from 1024x746 - 1400x1050. :( ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big. Gypsys Website
Aelius	Posted - 2003.08.19 12:40:00 - [12] SAME THING HERE! I have a GF4 assus v9280/td TI 4200 and i am experiencing the same problems. I already filled a bug report AGES!!! ago. No reply or fix. i even sent the dx diag box and the log file! NO ANSWER SO FAR. its sad to have soo good graphics spoiled by this stupid BUG! . And as far as i know theres no work arround for it! FIX THIS ASAP Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Aelius	Posted - 2003.08.19 12:42:00 - [13] By the way. anyone knows how to fix this??? if so post here. we will give ingame contributions Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Nifleim	Posted - 2003.08.31 03:36:00 - [14] anyone made any progress on this?
Athan	Posted - 2003.08.31 04:33:00 - [15] I could be wrong, but I think this is unfixable at present. The problem is that each EvE solar system is just so darned big and/or that the viewing area (grid) is so big. This means that even a 24bit z-buffer (used to sort things correctly so that if A is in front of B it displays as such) isn't accurate enough. When you have curved surfaces like with many of the EvE models you get quantisation effects such that sometimes it thinks part of a surface is in front of part of another surface, and sometimes the other way around, all depending on the exact position and angle you're viewing it from. We'd need video card manufacturers to come out with cards that can use larger z-buffers, and then DirectX support for such, and for EvE to use such where possible. -Ath -- http://big.wayland.dk/Lottery.asp - The BIG Lottery
Armaki Kalear	Posted - 2003.09.01 16:33:00 - [16] Same problem here... GF3 Ti 500. I also observed this problem in the beta and reported it. So even significant changes in drivers (now using 44.03) haven't fixed the problem. It makes sense that it's a zbuffer issue given that the problem is occuring on both the major manufactuer's equipment. I also notice the framerate drops when this happens... -- Top 5 corporation improvements as requested by CEOÆs
DaGr	Posted - 2003.09.07 01:55:00 - [17] This is a little absurd that we don't even get any response from the devs. My guess is that they CAN'T fix it and they just don't want to admit it. It did it on my GF2 GTS, so i bought a Radeon 9700 and it still does it. It's a little embarassing when I try to show someone the graphics on this sweet looking (for the most part) game, and they're like, "WTF is that?" Chaos is a word we've invented for an order we cannot understand.
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.07 07:24:00 - [18] It sounds like they've addressed this before in support. It even mentions the Z-buffer, but they only say to set your card to 32bit and that obviously doesn't work. ------------------------------- Question Im having problems with textures. Answer If you have your system set to 16 bit color you might experience some problems. The distances in EVE are sometimes so great that the granularity of a 16 bit Z buffer is not enough to correctly render objects with surfaces close to each other, that are placed far away from the camera. The only fix is to have the card set to 32 bit color, but that will lower your frame rate. We are aware of this problem and try to build our geometries and set our shaders so that this doesn't happen, but some designs make it very hard. To set your video card to 32 bits simply right click the desktop >choose> Properties >find> Settings >Find> Color on the lower left side and change to 32 bit color. ------------------------------ I think they need to respond to this now. If this support post is actually talking about this problem and they believe that 32bit color solves it and we all know it doesn't, then this means we'll never get a fix since it under the category as fixed. I even download a tweak program and turned on support for 32bit z-buffer, even made sure no compression was in it or lower resolutions to save bandwidth. I'm assuming this game is D3D, right?
Aelius	Posted - 2003.09.07 23:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Aelius on 07/09/2003 23:42:06 We players have done EVERYTHING to fix this but IT DOESN'T º&#@ING WORK CCP Are YOU going to fix this or are you going to burrie your heads in the sand (ice) and continuing saying "It's a Z-buffer problem bla bla bla bla"? Perhaps it's more a "Z-CCPBUG" problem right Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.08 09:08:00 - [20] Didn't they say in the tech specs that for ati you should use 2.5 cats? That's from last December!!!. But I wonder if it would fix the problem, otherwise why the hell would they ask you to use that driver when there doesn't seem to be much wrong with 3.7 except the crashes we all have and this damn graphics bug. Anyone willing to try them out? Guru3D.com has an archive of nvidia and ati drivers. If you have a Nvidia card that has this problem, check the game with the drivers CCP recommends for that.
wismerhil	Posted - 2003.09.08 10:11:00 - [21] well for one I havent had the problem at all, you are talking about here, i find this a very strange thing and i only have a geforce 3 ti200, well i guess im just lucky than :)
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.09.08 13:58:00 - [22] Very lucky I'd say... I've got the problem with my 9700 Pro posted numerous times both on this board and in bug reports and had zero response back from anyone at CCP.
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.08 20:23:00 - [23] Well, I filed a response to that z-buffer 32bit thing in the support area. Giving it a 0% and why. This morning asking to please send screenshots so they can better understand what it is I'm talking about. Well, I'll let you see the shots I plan to send. IMAGE ONE- CLICK HERE IMAGE TWO- CLICK HERE IMAGE THREE- CLICK HERE IMAGE FOUR- CLICK HERE I'll let you all now how it goes.
Aelius	Posted - 2003.09.08 20:52:00 - [24] Edited by: Aelius on 08/09/2003 20:55:04 I don't want to be rude but... CCP WE NEED TO KNOW SOMETHING NOW. ARE YOU GOING TO FIX THIS OR NOT I JUST LOST MY PATIENCE IM FILLING BUG REPORTS ABOUT THIS SINCE THE STONE AGE AND NO %#@ºING REPLY!!!!! PERHAPS THIS POST FINALLY GETS YOUR ATTENTION Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
NGRU Rix	Posted - 2003.09.09 13:18:00 - [25] The game uses a 32 bit Z-Buffer and GeForce Cards only do up to 24 bit. You may be able to force an ATI Card to 32 bit, but I don't have one of those so I am not sure. I know you used to be able to force NVIDIA cards to 32 bit a large number of drivers ago. I have talked to NVIDIA about this for my own personal knowledge and that is the problem. They are aware of the graphic issues in EVE with the cards. They call it 'Texture Fighting', and it most defintely Z-Buffer related; however, being that is is a 'D' bug game wise, it won't get too much attention. It is a graphical glitch only and does not affect actual gameplay outside of the eye-candy factor. Annoying - yes. Causes gameplay issues - no.
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.09 19:54:00 - [26] Yes it affects gameplay. This game is supposed to make you feel like you in space, in another world. And the great graphics help immerse you into it, but if your approaching a station and seeing these textures fight everywhere it really breaks the immersion. If the graphics weren't important to the game, especially the feeling of the game, you could just have a big white box with station printed on it and it would not affect gameplay as you would say.
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.09 19:57:00 - [27] On another note. My screenshots were passed on to the developers. Now they want my DxDiag, which I knew I should have sent in the begining. They also asked about how I said other people are having the problem, so now they would like to know the cards they are using. So I'm going to post a link here, so please reply with you system specs and settings to help out.
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.09 20:29:00 - [28] Also, here's another thread I gave them and you all might want to read too. It even includes some more pics: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/a=topic&threadID=19599
Bon Hedus	Posted - 2003.09.09 21:04:00 - [29] I had something similar when I had anisotropic filtering turned on with my Geforce 4 4200. It went away after I turned it off. The key word here is similar, and I don't know if this will fix your problems, but it is worth a try. -------------------------------------- "This is obviously the work of some Psycho, Weedsmoking, Voodoo Midget Aliens from Corporate America." JC
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.09 23:16:00 - [30] I tried no AA and AF, it did seem like the artifacts would become less detailed. Like the screenshot I posted with the station that has the triangle artifacts all over it, well the number of triangles went lower and more stretched to fill the area.
Nagor Surin	Posted - 2003.09.09 23:29:00 - [31] Edited by: Nagor Surin on 09/09/2003 23:31:46 Hi there So you keep fighting with them ? wish you luck... maby when this topic gets 100 pages and 1000 reports will be sent, maby then we'll get some reply... You found my post here :) but link is corrupted (missing '?' in "asp?a") Since then I tried catalyst 3.0 with no changes and 'hacked' omega drivers 2.4.74a with bunch of crashes during battle... now im using 'normal' omega 2.4.74a - no crashes but still the same hell... I just remind im on 1800+,nforce2, 512mb, sapphire r9500pro I try not to think about that bug but when it comes to my head - its trilling that my powerfull machine, bought especially for EVE and its glowing pixel shader now is corrupted by this outraging THING... just how beauthifull it would be without that constant flicking 'zebra' on every object ...... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA -------------------------------------------- www.eve.mpm.net.pl
Destro Temblin	Posted - 2003.09.10 11:53:00 - [32] I've got some much better pics than that :) I've got a load which clearly show the diagonal black stripes going across the Minmatar stations. I'll post them when I get a chance. Since this bug seriously effects the graphics of a game which was billed largely on its graphics, I'm quite surprised the topic hasn't been made sticky (its 3 pages long)! Everyone I know who plays Eve gets this bug, so I can't believe they don't know about it.
Ermenegildo Zenya	Posted - 2003.09.11 11:47:00 - [33] What more can I say to what have been written by all of u earlier. I've got the same problems with GFX floating stripes mostly on minimatar stations less likely on gallente. My tech Specs AMD XP 2500 +, 1024MB DDR RAM, ASUS GF FX 5200 128MB - I assume that it may be a partial problem of my "Value" card :) As far for now I will look forward to see how it will look after my GFX card upgrade. Hope to hear any dev comment on this issue - cos even though it cannot be fixed so far, Devs should respond to topics on that forum. If they don't why to bother to write anything here - maybe it's high time to leave... "Log-in trap" is baaad, mkay? Chimera Core Commander Human Resources Coordinator
Daemun Khanid	Posted - 2003.09.13 06:17:00 - [34] bump VADM. Daemun of Khanid
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.13 07:22:00 - [35] My screenshots, dxdiag and bug report have been forwarded to the developers a couple days ago by some mods. I'll let you guys know when I hear something new.
Destro Temblin	Posted - 2003.09.13 11:56:00 - [36] Nasty pics as promised: Scrolling black stripes Obviously this is just one side effect of a problem which effect almost every large structure in the game
Nomaar	Posted - 2003.09.13 15:19:00 - [37] The strange thing about these artifacts is that they didn't exist in early beta. It wasn't until the Eve engine was converted to DirectX 9, way back in January, that they appeared. Before then, everything was rendered perfectly.
Gauguin	Posted - 2003.09.13 16:36:00 - [38] Quote: Nasty pics as promised: Scrolling black stripes Obviously this is just one side effect of a problem which effect almost every large structure in the game I get the exact same thing. Min structures are the most 'active', Cal are the least. WinXP, 9700 PRO, cat 3.7
NGRU Rix	Posted - 2003.09.14 14:43:00 - [39] I would not expect to see this fixed any time in the near future simply because, as I said earlier, it is a 'D' Bug. It is graphical only in nature and it has no effect on gameplay. On the immersive nature of the game and the feeling that you are in space, yes, it does bugger that a bit. However, the important part is that it does not prevent you from doing anything in the game. You can still dock at the station, you can still jump through the gate; therefore, it is purely cosmetic and will be on the lower end of the fix priotity list. Sad but true - I would like to see it fixed becuase it is annoying as hell. I would also like to see 32 bit color in the game becuase some of the backdrops are ugly as sin in 16 bit color.
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.09.15 08:30:00 - [40] "D" bug or not, the fact it seems to affect around 50% of the playing community should be enough for the Developers to Aknowledge the problem. I wonder if in the magazine reviews the screenshots printed showed these problems whether CCP would put this slightly higher up their list of priorities. I've been playing the game 3 months now and I've had this problem from day 1... pull your finger out CCP and do something about this please.
Aakon	Posted - 2003.09.15 21:29:00 - [41] i found a solution about this problem, that works with my radeon 9500 pro. I think this would work for any higher ati card. Download this tweaker: Rage3D Tweak 3.9 (http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=391), install it and use the option to enable 32 bits Z-buffer. Now the Z-fight glitches almost disappeared in Eve ! I had one drawback though; i can no more have antialiasing... seems the radeon has not enough memory for 32 bits Z-buff + FSAA.
Daemun Khanid	Posted - 2003.09.15 22:38:00 - [42] Been there, tried that, it had no effect on my 9700 pro. VADM. Daemun of Khanid
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.16 02:46:00 - [43] I tried it the 32bit z-buffer option, as I think I mentioned before. It aslo says it only enables support for it, not forced. Also I think I mentioned before in reply to how this doesn't effect gameplay because it is only cosmetic thing. If this is true, then we really don't need textures and different designs for ship, just a cube with lables on it saying station, frigate, planet and etc if it really doesn't matter. Plus I didn't pay good money for 9700pro to say the graphics doesn't matter. Every next game is about beating the previous graphics in the last game, including gameplay, though a game usually wins when it has both, not just one of those.
Tim Maser	Posted - 2003.09.16 02:51:00 - [44] Edited by: Tim Maser on 16/09/2003 02:57:02 Also about it being as simple as the z-buffer thing. I specifically replied to CCP in the support area that mentions overlapping textures and the cause being the z-buffer and the need to change your display to 32bit. But they replied, at least a GM, to send more info, screens, other threads, dxdiag, about it so to be passed onto developers. I was expecting them to say this is a known problem and is being worked on. But I was being treated like it was known yet or at least devs had not given the tech support any info on it to respond with when asked about. At the moment I'm still waiting for the response from devs. I know it will take longer with them since it isn't just the simple tech support.
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.09.16 08:48:00 - [45] Hi Tim, They must know about this... I think it's just a case of them burying their heads in the sand and hoping it goes away. There have been numerous threads on this board and in the technical forum regarding this problem. I think the Devs just aren't interested personally. I'd be a lot happier if CCP were to just admit at least the problem exists, but no they plead ignorance... Look in these forums CCP you will learn a lot.
Nomaar	Posted - 2003.09.17 19:49:00 - [46] One of the developers did indeed respond to this issue, but it was several months ago and there's no way to retrieve the post with the current forum setup. In summary, he said they know about the problem, it's caused by the extreme draw distances in EVE without the ability to use "fogging" to cover up the dancing textures, and that they've been trying to find a solution. This answer still leaves me mystified as to why the problem didn't exist in early beta, before the conversion to DirectX 9.
Aelius	Posted - 2003.09.23 12:01:00 - [47] with this last patch the problem became less evident. but it's still there. i would like to know if they are going to fix that for good. of course if they care about players... Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.09.24 09:52:00 - [48] Aelius, I think we'd all like an answer to this one. CCP care to comment please?
Ezuriah	Posted - 2003.09.25 15:49:00 - [49] I've seen models and maps do this before when making mods for Q3A for example. It occurs when you have two objects of similar size and shape occupying the same space. It's a very easy mistake to make and very easy to overlook... and looks exactly like you described. The Keepers Alliance
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.10.07 08:27:00 - [50] Let's hope so, although still no confirmation of this even being a problems from CCP.
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.07 11:17:00 - [51] This is rude and unpolite CCP. At least give us an answer on this post. please say something. this tread has 2 months and no reply yet. thats is very unpolite from you guys. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
DeeCo	Posted - 2003.10.07 15:11:00 - [52] All you Geforce owners, go and download the latest Detonators, under the setting select best performance, and the glitching reduces to a tiny flash now and again. you can aloso whack antiostropic filtering all the way upto 8x and that reduces it too Click my sig for stats
Stonyvision	Posted - 2003.10.07 16:03:00 - [53] Ok we have a 4 pages thread here and it sure Is a game problem and not a user problem. I get it one one system with a radeon 9700 PRO and on a Geforce FX system as well. How can the devs ignore such a HUGE glitch. I mean, this is horrible! Not even a comment from CCP so far. What the hell are they thinking. Ignoring paying costumers when they have problems is not good for buisness! I understand that they can't fix it from now to tomorrow but stating that there EXISTS a problem and that it is worked on it would help a lot.
Onejob	Posted - 2003.10.07 16:11:00 - [54] COME ON CCP. Get your thumbs out of your backside and do something. Your still taking my money.
Peirce	Posted - 2003.10.07 17:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Peirce on 07/10/2003 17:05:39 I have the exact same problem with the sliced up textures. The funny thing is my problem is with amarr and caldari stations, i hardly notice it at all with gallente and minmatar stations. The biggest problem i have is with Amarr stations. i get compleatly missing textures on some surfaces and my frame rate goes down to almost nill when i face / fly to a amarr style station witht he camera. When i face away everythign runs fine, turn the camera back and it's like a 5th grade slide show. i have tried every catylist driver for my ati radeon 7500 agp card i could find. verson 2.5 that tech support "recommended" makes the game totally unplayable, and none of the settings on my card seem to help. personally i don't care too much about the texture tearing on the stations i can tolerate that, but slowing down to 2-5 frames a sec when approching amarr stations really drives me nuts.
chichang	Posted - 2003.10.08 00:10:00 - [56] I have it also with my geforce 4. but only with ammar stations?
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.10 06:15:00 - [57] still waiting for an answer........ Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.14 14:38:00 - [58] Just to add the I am also having this problem, I really hope it gets fixed soon. ATi Radeon 9800 Pro Geforce 4 Ti4400 Geforce 2 GTS All cards the same.
qrac	Posted - 2003.10.14 22:22:00 - [59] check this out it explains everything. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Bubba Fett	Posted - 2003.10.15 02:07:00 - [60] It seems everyone has graphic problems and CCP's not interested. :( Perhaps if we get the news of this outside the EVE community it will get a higher priority when it starts costing them customers. When you post screenshots of the game, post the bad ones that show the error rather than only showing scenes where it doesn't show up. When you tell everyone how cool the game is, qualify it by mentioning the crappy graphics that they don't intend to fix. I remember when I was thinking of getting this game. I asked a lot of questions about it and got lots of favorable comments. Nobody said anything about unfixable graphic errors or bugs that would wipe out weeks of work in an instant. Perhaps if they had I'd have choosen a different online game.
qrac	Posted - 2003.10.15 07:37:00 - [61] Bubba fett, if u read my post... which u didn't... then u should've known that this isn't for ccp to fix but for microsoft (directx) and graphic card makers to fix. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.16 09:35:00 - [62] Edited by: Torgar Delzoun on 16/10/2003 09:35:50 Qrac - Sorry if I'm just being thick here, but doesn't the article to which you kindly linked us show that CCP have set zNear too close to the eye, resulting in 'flimmering'?
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.16 10:15:00 - [63] Edited by: Torgar Delzoun on 16/10/2003 10:17:55 Edited by: Torgar Delzoun on 16/10/2003 10:16:33 For a little more background, here is a similar problem with SS2 described on Tom's Hardware. http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030127/geforce_fx-11.html It seems that if we are given the option to set the z-buffer precision in the driver, that potentially solves the problem. However, I only ever hear about this problem occurring with OpenGL. Does EVE use OpenGL?!
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.16 10:22:00 - [64] Perhaps the problem is that EVE does not define the z-buffer precisely. Serious Sam will select the first z-depth available, 16 bits, maybe EVE does too. Perhaps if EVE were to specify a 24-bit Z, rather than leaving it to the default, flimmering would be reduced.
qrac	Posted - 2003.10.16 11:04:00 - [65] the problem is that the distances in eve are extreme compared to other games and therefore eve needs a big z-buffer. the bigger the z-buffer is the bigger the accuracy is. let's say we have two asteroids. A is in front of the other (B) by 500m. from a 10 km viewing distance they give two separate values. for example 10 km can be 10km +- 0.1 km. but as the viewing distance grows the accuracy is reduced. let's say at 30 km then 30 km can be 30 +- 0.6 km. that means A and B give the same value because they're both within the 30 +- 0.6 km distance. most games also use a fog so that graphical glitches aren't noticed at great distances and it'd look strange if they were to use a fog in space. eve is a directx game. the problem with ss2 is with the nvidia drivers as explained at tom's hardware guide. i hope i explained it better this time. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.16 11:27:00 - [66] Thanks Qrac. Although you explained very well, I'm sure that there are possible solutions that could be implemented by CCP. EVE is not the first game set in space, but it is the first that I have ever seen this 'flimmering' phenomenon. Also, many EVE players don't see any 'z-fighting' so there must be a satisfactory solution, but without specialist advice, that will never be reached by the likes of me. It's a shame that the devs never read or reply to these posts. I would be fascinated by their account of the limitations of the EVE engine and the limitations imposed by DirectX and hardware. I love to play EVE, and I have no complaints about down-time, getting stuck, ore thieves, or anything else. But every time I see a jump gate 'swimming' it dumps me straight back to RL and reminds me that I'm looking at a graphical scene that my expensive graphics card can't seem to handle. Is anyone playing w/o 'z-fighting', if so, what graphics card are you using?
Voltaire Leriel	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:38:00 - [67] CCP should possibly just add a feature to the game where you can select what z-buffer you want to use, this might help te problem a bit, though i doubt it will solve it completely. I've been having this problem since beta too... using a geforce 4 ti4600. Voltaire's EVE Online Desktop Wallpapers http://www.big-eve.com
Voltaire Leriel	Posted - 2003.10.16 23:40:00 - [68] btw i jacked my AF up to 8x and nothing changes, still have the flimmering effect. Voltaire's EVE Online Desktop Wallpapers http://www.big-eve.com
Bubba Fett	Posted - 2003.10.18 00:45:00 - [69] Qrac, I read your post and it seems that the graphic errors are caused by the stations surfaces being too close together for the z buffer to display properly. That's an excuse all right, but in my opinion it's not a good enough one. If these stations are beyond the abilities of current hardware/software to display, then why are they in the game? When they were building the 3D models for this game did they look at all these graphic errors and hope nobody would notice? Since you can fly through stations, you can get a good look at how these stations are put together and it doesn't look like anyone bothered to cut away any of the interior surfaces that shouldn't be shown. There are plenty of space based games that allow you to see a station from a long distance and fly right up close to it (Iwar, Freelancer, Freespace, ect) without seeing these kind of graphic errors. Perhaps their models aren't as detailed as EVE's, but they were build to display on current hardware and they look a LOT better because of it. It's funny how everyone else seems to be able to overcome this z buffer problem, but when it comes to EVE it's an insurmountable problem and we have to wait a few years for hardware/directX to get better. :(
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.19 07:39:00 - [70] Here here Bubba Fett, I whole-heartedly agree! I have been trying desperately to try and fix this problem. I have now noticed it in other games, but it's not so glaringly obvious. I think it must be possible for CCP to make a change to the graphics engine to at least force a higher resolution z-buffer. Or manufacturers of gfx cards could fix it in the drivers to use the highest res z-buffer poss for EVE.
Voltaire Leriel	Posted - 2003.10.19 20:57:00 - [71] ok i've been researching this problem and there IS a solution for the developers! (nothing we can do though :/) there is such a thing as a "W-Buffer" i've heard of it before but did not really understand it. what it does however is exactly the same as the z-buffer. its more percise, much more so, but impedes performance a bit. if CP where to activate this feature on the game, it would probobly eliminate the problem! AS TAKEN FROM TOMSHARDWARE FORUMS: Quote: basically, a zbuffer loses precision as objects get further away from the point of view. a w-buffer does the same job as a z-buffer but doesnt lose precision.. its not quite as fast, but you dont get artifacts like that. Anarchy Online has the option to use the w-buffer.. you can turn it off, but you get artifacts exactly like you describe above in those pictures. I will be e-mailing thedev team with this suggestion ASAP, i suggest that everyone please encourage them to allow a W-buffer option to be enabled so that this game can truely grasp the graphical beuaty that it deserves! NOTE: when you e-mail them do not flame them, I am not asking for you to burn down CCP's office building. KIND ENCOURAGEMENT will go alot further than rude remarks. Voltaire's EVE Online Desktop Wallpapers http://www.big-eve.com
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.10.20 10:57:00 - [72] Hi Voltaire Leriel, Can you post any replies you get from CCP. I would do the same but as yet I've not had any response. Glad to see this thread is still alive though, the longer it's alive the more chance there is it could be noticed.
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.21 14:38:00 - [73] I too have sent an e-mail to the CCP support team. I will post any replies here.
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.27 11:36:00 - [74] no reply yet? Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
london	Posted - 2003.10.27 18:35:00 - [75] I have the same problem with the 'swimming textures'. Detracts from the game world :\| ATi 9700pro 3.8omega 4xAA 8xAF 1200x1024/85Hz (monitor native) london:jericho
Nomaar	Posted - 2003.10.27 19:26:00 - [76] A W-buffer option might indeed work. Anarchy Online is the only game I've seen to offer that option, and when I used it it cleared up a lot of flickering issues.
NGRU Rix	Posted - 2003.10.27 20:54:00 - [77] There is also no distance fogging in this game. The textures for a station, ship, gate and whatever else we see is the same at 5km as it is at 50km. In a normal game there would be fogging in the distance and those textures that would be fighting otherwise, are not visible due to the distance thing. There is also no blurring of items at a distance in this game. AF has no use whatsoever in here becuase of it. These, combined with the Z-buffer issue is why we see all these fighting textures.
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.28 06:40:00 - [78] I got a response from CCP: Hi, The best way for your idea to be heard is to submit a post on the "idea lab" forum on www.eve-online.com as the devs read this forum and have already implemented a lot of ideas from there. Also, this way you will get input from other players, voicing their opinion and sharing their knowledge on the subject. Hope this helps. Best regards GM Flatboy Bah Thanks for the stock answer for any problem
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.29 10:52:00 - [79] Im just wondering why CCP doesnt answer to us on this tread... Perhaps they dont know **** about this problem and they dont want to be embarased. There's no shame in not knowing everything but is rude to leave the paying players on their own trying to find ALL the answers to this. Come on guys dont you think a 5 pages tread deserves an official answer? Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
qrac	Posted - 2003.10.29 12:03:00 - [80] they know about it.. i think they even responded in an older thread.. but since there's no search function on these forums it's kind of hard to find it. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Moph	Posted - 2003.10.29 13:44:00 - [81] Lets create these kinds of threads on all forums and bump them everyday :) Surely CCP WILL notice I agree to that "We need W-Buffer support"
Hellmar	Posted - 2003.10.29 15:53:00 - [82] Edited by: Hellmar on 29/10/2003 16:10:16 Sorry for not addressing this sooner, but here goes: We are aware of the problem and are fixing it. The reason for the problem is, as many have stated the coordinate span of EVE, meaning that you have relatively small things close and huge things far away. We have a special way to handle planets were we render them in different transform/scaling space and clear the z buffer afterwards. This works fine as there is no visible overlapping of planets and other objects in the scene (much to small in relation and planets being convex). Doing the same with stations is a little bit more complex, as battleships and Titans overlap with stations (as most of the stations are concave), even at great distances. With improvements to out scene ordering logic it can still be done to a better extent than we are doing now. We looked at using w-buffering in the beginning but at the time, cards had problems with cubemaps and w-buffering being mutually exclusive. And EVE is nothing with out cubemaps. This leaves us with: 1. Increasing the options of available device creation options, based on hw capability. This we are more or less done with and will allow you to create device surfaces with 16,24,32 z-buffer, thus increasing the resolution of the buffer and eliminating a lot of the problem 2. Have more coordinate-split regions in the scene graph were we use different scale/transform matrixes and clear the buffer in-between thus rationing the resolution to each layer. This solution has the cylinder-inside-a-doughnut problem, or in EVE terms Tempest-in-the-middle-of the-circle-the-angelice-prime-station-makes, i.e. object in one resolution space being encircled by the concavity of another. 3. use w-buffering on HW that supports it in conjunction with cubemaps. the w-buffer is none-linear and preserves resolution for the places were it matters the most. At this moment we are doing all of this and the problem will be history soon
Al Kaline	Posted - 2003.10.29 16:18:00 - [83] Hurray -at last -I consider myself very lucky as today was the first day I read this thread and all the annoyed people waiting for a reply and today it finally got a reply - can't wait to see the update - P.S I noticed this prob the first day I played eve but just thought it was the age of my card.
Moph	Posted - 2003.10.29 17:08:00 - [84] Edited by: Ia 'Ras on 29/10/2003 17:09:47 Hurray At last an offical response from CCP Dev team! Great you are working on a solution; but please, hurry up! Hellmar's post should be a new thread in this forum, and sticky Hello moderators
Destro Temblin	Posted - 2003.10.29 19:30:00 - [85] Many thanks for replying - we look forward to a possible fix. Maybe then we can show off this great game without people going - "yeah but what are all those black triangles and stripes?"
Voltaire Leriel	Posted - 2003.10.29 21:45:00 - [86] yes awsome, thank you so much for answering our pleas. you really have a stunning game here, graphically. Even if some people complain alot about gameplay, i'm sure that everyone can agree the game LOOKS AWSOME. This one little glitch throws a wrentch in all of it though! so dissapointing. Interresting though, of all the games that have ever been released, i've never seen this problem before, which just goes to show what a unique game this really is. That is probobly why there are so many bugs and gameplay balance issues. Everyone must acknowlage that this game is somthing that NO ONE has ever done before, an MMO enviroment that is this massive in scale and scope has never been accomplished before or even attempted to my knowlage. Just as Ultima Online was the first MMO, and had alot of problems, so will EVE. This is because they are both "firsts" you cant expect it to be perfect when we dont even have a perfect example to compare it to! Voltaire's EVE Online Desktop Wallpapers http://www.big-eve.com
Rickenbacker	Posted - 2003.10.30 13:35:00 - [87] Thanks for the reply. I didn't understand any of it, but if you can fix the problem, I'll be happy :).
Tor	Posted - 2003.10.30 15:15:00 - [88] Hellmar... I love you
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.31 20:50:00 - [89] Hurray, i thought you guys were sleeping (hibernating) in Iceland... well better late than never i always say... so... JOB WELL DONE Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Lu Tze	Posted - 2003.11.13 22:44:00 - [90] I'm playing on Chaos at the moment, and by playing with the complex looking options in the ESC config screen, this problem has gone away!! I dance for joy.
Gavilan	Posted - 2003.11.17 15:26:00 - [91] Edited by: Gavilan on 17/11/2003 15:29:16 Nice one ladies & gents, Our perseverance paid off in the end... looking forward to the patch with great anticipation. :)
Scalor Valentis	Posted - 2003.11.18 12:50:00 - [92] This is currently 'almost' fixed on Chaos. There are new choises on the graphs tab which let you choose the depth of you z-buffer. The Minmatar stations and stargates no longer have the texturing problem on my GeForce 4. Great job CCP!
london	Posted - 2003.11.18 18:16:00 - [93] is using the new setting (32bit buffer instead of 24) rid the entire problem? thanks london:jericho
Golgrath	Posted - 2003.11.19 08:24:00 - [94] I can only select 24bit depth buffer on my ti4200. This gets rid of most flickering in stations but some huge stations still have it. I think some Ati cards support 32bit depth buffer (select D3DFMT_D32). Redundancy's post about the d3d formats
Nifleim	Posted - 2003.12.14 03:01:00 - [95] any updates on this?
Scalor Valentis	Posted - 2003.12.15 07:06:00 - [96] Hellmar, you had this fixed when we had those multiple options to choose from on Chaos. Now it's broken again!!! This latest 1349 let's us choose between 16bit and 32bit color moders, but the flickering is still there.
Nifleim	Posted - 2003.12.17 02:33:00 - [97] anyone else still having problems with this????? i sure as hell AM!!!
Nifleim	Posted - 2003.12.17 02:47:00 - [98] Edited by: Nifleim on 17/12/2003 22:14:46 oops
london	Posted - 2003.12.17 02:53:00 - [99] Edited by: london on 17/12/2003 16:33:21 Yah, I like the new color depth options (24bit+8bit alpha=32bit) plus the dither option is supposed to make the light cones on pixels smoother/look better?? (someone wanna explain to me dither?) But still no Z-Buffer options... arg london:jericho
Eoa Rena	Posted - 2003.12.17 03:29:00 - [100] Sometimes i get awsome mining drones mereged with my ships mesh :)
london	Posted - 2003.12.17 16:30:00 - [101] Edited by: london on 17/12/2003 18:33:54 (!) found this in general forum! Quote: Edited by: Ia 'Ras on 17/12/2003 12:40:16 Don't forget to add this to your prefs.ini advancedDevice=1 edit: Remember! It's case sensitive! then go to graphic options, and turn 32bit Z-buffer on together with some stencil buffer or whateva you call it You'll love it even more No more "fighting textures".. NEVER cheers, london:jericho
Krilos Nereth	Posted - 2003.12.23 23:14:00 - [102] This fix seems to introduce some texture flickering and other problems being discussed here.

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