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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
2192
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Posted - 2013.04.01 16:07:00 -
[91] - Quote
Randy Wray wrote:To mare wrote:Liafcipe9000 wrote:rupture needs more powergrid. rupture need an extra gun, same fittings. the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad. I must've been thinking wrong then... for some reason I remember having fitting problems meh, ignore that post... |
To mare
Advanced Technology
180
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Posted - 2013.04.01 19:21:00 -
[92] - Quote
Randy Wray wrote:To mare wrote:Liafcipe9000 wrote:rupture needs more powergrid. rupture need an extra gun, same fittings. the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.
Now compare that to a maller/moa/vexor
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Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
171
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Posted - 2013.04.01 20:40:00 -
[93] - Quote
To mare wrote:Randy Wray wrote: Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad.
Now compare that to a maller/moa/vexor This will be my baseline Rupture: [Rupture, test] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II
10MN Afterburner II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M 5W Infectious Power System Malfunction Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Warrior II x5 Warrior II x1
Lets see. First off lets get the Moa out of the way. Moa's shield, ruppies armour. Difficult comparison there to begin with.
Neutron AB Moa. [Moa, fleet] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II 10MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Warrior II x3
Moa has less tank by 7k EHP. Rupture's off to a good start. It also has similar utility, but lacks a neut. It also has a smaller base HP buffer. In exchange it gets more damage projection in close range. Damage levels out at 15km range with close range ammo, 25km with barrage/null.
So I see more damage, less tank, slightly faster... but doesn't have the MWD that the Rupture does.
Ion/MWD Moa, dropped the web for another LSE [Moa, fleet] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Warp Scrambler II Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Antimatter Charge M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Warrior II x3
Alright. So now it gets a MWD, making it slightly faster than the Rupture. It also gets 8k more EHP. But it lost its web. Won't be holding anybody down this time. It also doesn't have an AB, so it gets stopped by a scram. Damage with close range guns levels out at 8km, long range ammo at 15km. Trades utility and projection for close range damage and tank.
Overall, I'd say the comparison between the Moa and Rupture is that you have to trade one thing for another. Also, ones shield and one's armour (I'm not going to even bother try and compare an armour Moa).
Now for the Maller. Not going to bother with fits for this one. It comes down to: more damage, more projection, more tank. But, in exchange for less utility, less cap life, worse tracking, slower. I'll give the advantage here to the Maller for fleets, but it's weaker in smaller gangs where every bit of utility counts, and you won't always have someone else to top up your cap.
As for the Vexor? I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure the Vexor won't get much more tank than the Rupture using a similar fit, and is countered by smartbombs, in exchange for better projection and similar if not more utility. Again, I'll give the advantage to the Vexor, but there are still uses for the Rupture. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
506
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Posted - 2013.04.01 23:58:00 -
[94] - Quote
This thread is confusing and hilarious. T1 Logi is hilariously beatable on many fronts. Whether or not it truly needs a nerf is a question unto it's own, but everything i've read here suggests that you guys need to fly cruiser gangs and get better at disrupting logi chains.
When Retribution first dropped, there was an over an hr long 50-man fight we had. I for one was afraid that this would become the norm and that the Aug was indeed OP. Then we kept flying them as much as we could against anything that would be a decent fight and taking experience from our losses as well as our wins we started making some tweaks and changes to how we flew our fleets.
It's extremely difficult to judge just how effective your disruption efforts are on logi. Good ewar is something you don't always realize when its there, but you definitely notice when its not. With that being said, all i'm going to say is that more people need to pay attention to damage projection and skill of their ewar pilots. T1 logi reps a suprisingly low amount and isn't difficult to break. Most of the fights we've had, probably a third of our logi is either damped or jammed by EC- drones, but we still usually pull through. Likewise, a well trained Celestis pilot with all the secondary supports and Gal Cruiser V versus having someone who can get into a Celestis is the difference between winning a fight and being completely useless.
Personally, I think that T1 logi is already quite distinguished from it's T2 counterparts, mainly in how much it's able to rep. For example, an Augoror reps 60% as much as a Guardian does. While I personally think that at least the scan res and lock range nerfs might be a bit much in the context of many of the Cruiser fights we've had, at least it will make beating people who rely on logi easier as well.
EDIT: I do caution though, the upcoming booster nerf combined with the logi changes might end up being too big of a hit to their effectiveness.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Yun Kuai
Justified Chaos
38
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Posted - 2013.04.03 08:22:00 -
[95] - Quote
I didn't see anyone bring it up so it may just be a concern with me., but I'll throw it out there anyways. I believe the caracal should not have its ship bonus' applied to rapid light missile launchers.
As much as I find it a lot of fun to fly a frig-killing machine (and trust me when I say this, I've been that guy), but I don't feel the Caracal should excell at this role. As it stands now, you are hard pressed to find a HML or HAM caracal solo/fleet flying around. Instead, you find Carcals picking on frigs and destroyers and blatantly running from cruisers
There are plenty of modules that aren't bonused on ship hulls, and the RLM's should be added to that list. Even if they're not ship bonused, RLM Caracals would still be viable and allow it to continue to be a frig killer, but just a reduced effectiveness. This would also shake uip the meta and add a lot of variety in which kind of caracal you'll see as people would actually attempt a HML or HAM fit and see that it's effective. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
57
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Posted - 2013.04.03 10:40:00 -
[96] - Quote
Yun Kuai wrote:I didn't see anyone bring it up so it may just be a concern with me., but I'll throw it out there anyways. I believe the caracal should not have its ship bonus' applied to rapid light missile launchers. As much as I find it a lot of fun to fly a frig-killing machine (and trust me when I say this, I've been that guy), but I don't feel the Caracal should excell at this role. As it stands now, you are hard pressed to find a HML or HAM caracal solo/fleet flying around. Instead, you find Carcals picking on frigs and destroyers and blatantly running from cruisers There are plenty of modules that aren't bonused on ship hulls, and the RLM's should be added to that list. Even if they're not ship bonused, RLM Caracals would still be viable and allow it to continue to be a frig killer, but just a reduced effectiveness. This would also shake uip the meta and add a lot of variety in which kind of caracal you'll see as people would actually attempt a HML or HAM fit and see that it's effective.
Well SOME cruisers must be better against frigates, and some against larger ships. Blasters tend to be superior against larger ships ... why not the caracal for anti frig role? |
Severice
Crushed Ambitions Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
0
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Posted - 2013.04.03 11:09:00 -
[97] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:mynnna wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote: We are also giving some moderate improvements to the two lowest performing attack cruisers, the Stabber and Omen.
Those look like some decidedly potent changes. But I'm more interested in the bolded - I'm curious how you're coming up with the "lowest performing"? Couple of ways. The more subjective judgement from flying with them and watching for them on TQ (and following feedback in multiple places) plays a part, but objectively I can say for instance that the number of people getting on killmails with Omens and Stabbers on a daily basis is clustered quite significantly lower than Caracals and Thorax.
I'm sure this has nothing to do with the SFI being so damn popular that who would fly a stabber? |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
705
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Posted - 2013.04.03 11:09:00 -
[98] - Quote
To mare wrote:Randy Wray wrote:To mare wrote:Liafcipe9000 wrote:rupture needs more powergrid. rupture need an extra gun, same fittings. the tank would still be bad but at least it would have a purpose as a damage platform Proper 1600mm plate rupture gets more than 40k ehp iirc, thats nowhere close to bad. Now compare that to a maller/moa/vexor
Maller caps out before it can kill a rupture if it doesn't have a cap booster and can't track it properly if it does. And it can just scramkite the moa.
Severice wrote: I'm sure this has nothing to do with the SFI being so damn popular that who would fly a stabber?
Stabber and SFI have two completely different roles so what one does well should have no effect on the other. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
212
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Posted - 2013.04.03 22:18:00 -
[99] - Quote
Slightly off-topic, but this has been bothering me for months:
Why does the Augoror have two utility mids, and the Osprey two utility lows, when their T2 counterparts have only one utility slot each?
On the whole the support cruisers are very nicely balanced, and are sufficiently effective to be welcome in fleets alongside T2 Logistics, without eclipsing T2 Logistics entirely. All support cruiser pilots are very much encouraged to skill up for the T2 Logistics, since they have almost twice as much EHP and substantially superior resistances, and about 40% better repair output.
I will note that the Scythe treads a bit more on the Scimitar's position than do the other support cruisers on their T2 counterparts. Shield logistics usually rely on kiting hostile fire to stay alive, where the Scimitar's superior resistance profile and tank are not as significant. The Basilisk is less popular in shield fleets largely because it's obscenely slow relative to other logistics, and so is less effective at kiting, but does not have the armor logistics' superior tank and so is not as effective at brawling, while suffering from shield tank sig radius bloom. Granted, the Basilisk's bad rep is mostly undeserved -- when flown properly it can be superior to a Scimitar, but something to keep in mind.
The difference in cost between T1 and T2 support cruisers is not as high as some may think, unless we compare faction-fit T2 Logistics with T2-fit support cruisers. A properly-outfitted Augoror runs about 50M ISK at today's prices, a T2-fit Guardian runs somewhere around 200M ISK. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
705
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 23:00:00 -
[100] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:Slightly off-topic, but this has been bothering me for months:
Why does the Augoror have two utility mids, and the Osprey two utility lows, when their T2 counterparts have only one utility slot each?
On the whole the support cruisers are very nicely balanced, and are sufficiently effective to be welcome in fleets alongside T2 Logistics, without eclipsing T2 Logistics entirely. All support cruiser pilots are very much encouraged to skill up for the T2 Logistics, since they have almost twice as much EHP and substantially superior resistances, and about 40% better repair output.
I will note that the Scythe treads a bit more on the Scimitar's position than do the other support cruisers on their T2 counterparts. Shield logistics usually rely on kiting hostile fire to stay alive, where the Scimitar's superior resistance profile and tank are not as significant. The Basilisk is less popular in shield fleets largely because it's obscenely slow relative to other logistics, and so is less effective at kiting, but does not have the armor logistics' superior tank and so is not as effective at brawling, while suffering from shield tank sig radius bloom. Granted, the Basilisk's bad rep is mostly undeserved -- when flown properly it can be superior to a Scimitar, but something to keep in mind.
The difference in cost between T1 and T2 support cruisers is not as high as some may think, unless we compare faction-fit T2 Logistics with T2-fit support cruisers. A properly-outfitted Augoror runs about 50M ISK at today's prices, a T2-fit Guardian runs somewhere around 200M ISK.
I'm guessing t1 is supposed to be less focused.
I do hope you're not suggesting t2 logistics are underpowered.. because you would be very wrong. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Unclaimed.
214
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Posted - 2013.04.04 06:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:I'm guessing t1 is supposed to be less focused. I do hope you're not suggesting t2 logistics are underpowered.. because you would be very wrong.
Not at all. They're right where they should be. T2 logistics are probably the most balanced class in the game, both against other ships and against one another. They have plenty of counters and a fleet commander has to make a meaningful tradeoff between repair power, damage output, and utility. ECM, remote sensor dampeners, energy neutralizers, alpha, and raw dps can all neutralize a logistics squad or at the least greatly diminish its effectiveness, especially when combined with one another (i.e. ECM and dampeners).
The second utility mid slot allows the Augoror to quadruple its sensor strength, to about 56 or so with perfect skills, better than even an ECCM-fit Basilisk (51 sensor strength). For comparison, a Guardian comes in at 44. The Osprey isn't quite as resilient to ECM, since it only reaches 39 sensor strength using dual sensor backup arrays. |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
697
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Posted - 2013.04.05 23:01:00 -
[102] - Quote
How about not making the rep range of the logis cruisers so long or considering adding falloff/optimal to remote reppers (as they already are for many EWars.).
yk |
sten mattson
1st Praetorian Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
26
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Posted - 2013.04.06 17:29:00 -
[103] - Quote
is it normal that the stabber has 10 times less mass than every other cruiser?
Quote:stabber: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 / 0.5 / 1140000 / 5.3 s
omen: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3) IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |
Jon Joringer
Zero-K
24
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Posted - 2013.04.06 19:36:00 -
[104] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:is it normal that the stabber has 10 times less mass than every other cruiser? Quote:stabber: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 / 0.5 / 1140000 / 5.3 s
omen: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3) It's not as if it has the dps or staying power to kill anything. So, I guess it's fast at least. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
267
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Posted - 2013.04.06 23:49:00 -
[105] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:is it normal that the stabber has 10 times less mass than every other cruiser? Quote:stabber: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 / 0.5 / 1140000 / 5.3 s
omen: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3) It's a typo. A zero is missing.
The Omen will be lighter than the stabber, though the stabber is still faster than most destroyers. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
712
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 02:17:00 -
[106] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:sten mattson wrote:is it normal that the stabber has 10 times less mass than every other cruiser? Quote:stabber: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 / 0.5 / 1140000 / 5.3 s
omen: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3) It's a typo. A zero is missing. The Omen will be lighter than the stabber, though the stabber is still faster than most destroyers.
Its faster than all destroyers. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts Hegemonous Pandorum
132
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Posted - 2013.04.07 08:51:00 -
[107] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:sten mattson wrote:is it normal that the stabber has 10 times less mass than every other cruiser? Quote:stabber: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 / 0.5 / 1140000 / 5.3 s
omen: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3) It's a typo. A zero is missing. The Omen will be lighter than the stabber, though the stabber is still faster than most destroyers. Its faster than all destroyers.
gotta go fast!
Also, looking good Omen, all those days in the gym space dock really paying off! |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
5143
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Posted - 2013.04.08 14:07:00 -
[108] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:is it normal that the stabber has 10 times less mass than every other cruiser? Quote:stabber: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290 / 0.5 / 1140000 / 5.3 s
omen: [...] Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 0.51 / 11050000 (-600,000) / 5.3s (-0.3)
Oops
Fixed Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie |
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Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
126
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Posted - 2013.04.08 21:37:00 -
[109] - Quote
Wow, drones on the stabber now. Why not just give it a bonus to damage for its guns, would make more sense seeing as minmatar usually are weak on drones. |
Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
130
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Posted - 2013.04.11 16:30:00 -
[110] - Quote
Noooo, what are you doing to the glorious Augoror? It will only take like 1-and-a-half Falcon now to jam one out? |
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Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
130
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Posted - 2013.04.11 16:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Wow, drones on the stabber now. Why not just give it a bonus to damage for its guns, would make more sense seeing as minmatar usually are weak on drones.
As for an artilleryplatform, a damage bonus would make sense. However i think the stabber is more of an autocannon platform. In which case the Falloff bonus works like a damage bonus. It's just not as obvious. |
Nightfox BloodRaven
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry Templis Dragonaors
6
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Posted - 2013.04.14 04:12:00 -
[112] - Quote
The stabber is just weak right now.... you can barely have enough room to fit anything on the guns... only guns u can fit without implants is dual 180mms.. tank is also weak... if you want to improve the stabber a bit more fitting room would be nice... |
Laura Belle
Vectis Covert Solutions
3
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Posted - 2013.04.14 11:33:00 -
[113] - Quote
all good, but i think that amarr and minmatar energy booster greatly overpowers the drone rep bonus of the other races and thus should have the lowest sensor strength |
Gal'o Sengen
State War Academy Caldari State
96
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Posted - 2013.04.20 15:05:00 -
[114] - Quote
The Stabber is still going to be completely worthless. The buff offsets the nerf to TE's, but doesn't change the fact that it has a paper tank, does no damage at all (even though a flight of Light drones is likely enough to double its applied DPS at point range), has no fitting, and tracks badly. At least it's fast.
Too bad you can't kill another ship by running away from it. |
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy Caldari State
69
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Posted - 2013.04.20 23:27:00 -
[115] - Quote
Fozzie,
Stabber +25m3 Dronebay and 25mbit bandwidth
Change falloff bonus from the 7.5% per level to the standard 10% per level
First off... \o/ YAY DRONES!!!
Second... I'm still of the mind that the missile launchers should be replaced with a 5th turret (plus any needed PG and CPU) In my opinion, with a 5th turret, the Stabber is able to keep up DPS wise at close range with the others of its class and doesn't seem so miserably bad at long (barrage) range. Whether the remaining slot stays intact as a high, that's kind of a toss up. It's neat but not necessary. Maybe move the slot to the mids for another shield tank mod or allowance of a small cap booster to run the cap hungry MWD a bit longer.
Cheers |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2013.04.20 23:43:00 -
[116] - Quote
you could always increase the stabbers ROF bonus to 7.5% or replace it with a 10% damage bonus. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
SpeedY G0nZaleZ
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
17
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Posted - 2013.04.21 15:36:00 -
[117] - Quote
Nobody else is talking about this so I will.
The Maller should have missiles. The entire hull line seems to have it except for the Maller. Vengeance -> Maller -> Sac -> Legion
There is a huge gap in hams in the cruiser lineup.
That is all. |
Donedy
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
41
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Posted - 2013.04.23 08:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
Im waiting to see what you gonna do with T2, but honestly im kinda worried about the "final rebalance" according to how T1 had been buffed.
Also same slots layout for all different ship types is not what i call rebalance.
Edit : Note that i should have done this comment some monthes ago. |
Telemachus Rheade
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
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Posted - 2013.04.27 08:12:00 -
[119] - Quote
For the stabber, I would suggest switching a high for a low. That way you can actually effectively armor tank it too (on top of shield tanking), which would be more minmatar style. How necessary is the second utility high really? On most fits it's a medium neut + a small neut (just like the previous Hurricanes. The drones are a nice buff for sure! Not complaining about any of the changes, just thinking of how to make it better, according to minmatar playstyles. |
Meldorn Vaash
State War Academy Caldari State
69
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Posted - 2013.04.27 22:53:00 -
[120] - Quote
Telemachus Rheade wrote:For the stabber, I would suggest switching a high for a low. That way you can actually effectively armor tank it too (on top of shield tanking), which would be more minmatar style. How necessary is the second utility high really? On most fits it's a medium neut + a small neut (just like the previous Hurricanes. The drones are a nice buff for sure! Not complaining about any of the changes, just thinking of how to make it better, according to minmatar playstyles.
They already have a ship like that. The Rupture
In my opinion, the standard Stabber should be more along the lines of a mini-Vagabond.
Guns, shields, drones and speed.
These are a few of my favorite things...
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