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Stop whinningf about T2 BS screwing balance up !!

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V0RL0N	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:16:00 - [1] I've noticed alot of comments lately about how an elite BS with HAC like stats will screw the game ! Arguments for this were: soloing lvl4 missions again, very easy rat hunting in 0.0, needs 4-6 normal BS to take out an elite one, etc. Theese arguments are as shallow as one can be: 1. New NPC ships and effects will compensate for soloing lvl4 missions in an Elite BS. Same goes for rat hunting. 2. Soloing lvl4 missions is not that bad. The problem when they were first introduced was that the rewards were too high compared to the risk involved. Now, bounties are very low and the loot almost non existant. Problem fixed. 3. Its very hard to kill. Isnt that a normal thing for an elite ship ? Or you need an useless T2 BS like a logistic type one ? If your corp/alliance cant kill it in normal BS then you always have the obtion to aquire an elite. They arent restricted to your ENEMIES only you know. 4. They dont make T1 version useless. Because the T2 BS will have a high price compare to the T1 one. The normal BS will still have its own market/target player. 5. Damage Inflation. This is normal with any MMO game that needs to add content on a regular basis. Any subscription based game will need to add content constatly. And this content always require damage inflation. We, as human beings, always need for something more damaging, more powerfull, etc to "play" with. So please stop whining. Stop using words like: "The day Elite BS with HAC like stats enters the game is the day i quit" !! Why didnt you quit when there were only cruisers and the first BS came in the game ?? Its the same situation. This is only Game Content Evolution, and if eve will last for another few good years, then you will see ships that outdamage even the newly "to be inserted" T2 BS or even dreads. PS: Sorry for my spelling/grammar mistakes. I'm not an english native.
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:22:00 - [2] Very well said Vorlon and an "agreed" to all of your points! Sums up my feelings about the issue pretty well. Bring on the SHACs!
pwnz0r	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:27:00 - [3] I'm all for them if we can call them SHACs.
Emno	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:43:00 - [4] SHAC = Super Heavy Assault Cruiser?
Nero Scuro	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:45:00 - [5] Correct me if I'm wrong, but when did CCP even say T2 BSes would be HAC-like? I was under the impression they would be specialised in some way, like logistics or co-ops..? _________ I'm going to kill you in the face!
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:46:00 - [6] SuperHAC/SHAC sounds like "suck" Ultra(or Uber)HAC/UHAC sounds like "you hack" I really don't envy the Devs... Wonder what they're going to call them?
VossKarr	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:50:00 - [7] Originally by: Emno SHAC = Super Heavy Assault Cruiser? Oops! Then how about: SHAB SHAS UHAB UHAS... or . . . . REHAB = Really Elite Heavy Assault Battleship
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:57:00 - [8] Originally by: V0RL0N 1. New NPC ships and effects will compensate for soloing lvl4 missions in an Elite BS. Same goes for rat hunting. and what will this do to t1 BS missioning/ratting? Originally by: V0RL0N 2. Soloing lvl4 missions is not that bad. The problem when they were first introduced was that the rewards were too high compared to the risk involved. Now, bounties are very low and the loot almost non existant. Problem fixed. so u can either make no money for high risk in a cheap(ish) t1 BS, or make no money for low risk in a very expensive and highly skilled t2 BS? Originally by: V0RL0N 3. Its very hard to kill. Isnt that a normal thing for an elite ship ? Or you need an useless T2 BS like a logistic type one ? If your corp/alliance cant kill it in normal BS then you always have the obtion to aquire an elite. They arent restricted to your ENEMIES only you know. so the only way of killing a t2 BS for less rich/experienced corps will be the uberblob? this is simply another way of making it less likely new players will get anywhere in the game Originally by: V0RL0N 4. They dont make T1 version useless. Because the T2 BS will have a high price compare to the T1 one. The normal BS will still have its own market/target player. no, but they do make it completely outclassed, which will almost certainly lead to stuff being made harder (lvl4s, high lvl complexes, 0.0 ratting) so that it is a challenge for t2 BSs. this would make it impossible to do in t1 BSs, or require a larger group to do, making it unprofitable Originally by: V0RL0N 5. Damage Inflation. This is normal with any MMO game that needs to add content on a regular basis. Any subscription based game will need to add content constatly. And this content always require damage inflation. We, as human beings, always need for something more damaging, more powerfull, etc to "play" with. ZOMG - i have played seven months! waaaaaaah - i want a death star! Originally by: V0RL0N So please stop whining. Stop using words like: "The day Elite BS with HAC like stats enters the game is the day i quit" !! i wouldn't quit, but i'll definetely mumble quite loudly Originally by: V0RL0N Why didnt you quit when there were only cruisers and the first BS came in the game ?? Its the same situation. cos i wasn't playing then. that makes it hard to quit (which i wouldn't do anyway) Originally by: V0RL0N This is only Game Content Evolution, and if eve will last for another few good years, then you will see ships that outdamage even the newly "to be inserted" T2 BS or even dreads. oh, so i will get my death star
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.09.03 11:58:00 - [9] Originally by: VossKarr REHAB = Really Elite Heavy Assault Battleship ok, u can have t2 assault BSs as long as you call them that
El Yatta	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:12:00 - [10] I was with you, even agreeing with you right up until.... Originally by: V0RL0N Why didnt you quit when there were only cruisers and the first BS came in the game ?? Its the same situation. This is only Game Content Evolution, and if eve will last for another few good years, then you will see ships that outdamage even the newly "to be inserted" T2 BS or even dreads. This is completely untrue. we have ENOUGH damage dealing as it is - nobody wants a Gankageddon that has lost its only weakness- no defence. If its got more damage, and can afford one slot for a repairer, its resistances would allow it to slaughter anything that it met. Why do you think the dreads have LOW dps against ships, and only really do the damage when in seige mode against POS? Because the devs did not want to overbalance the already horrible ganka-everything situion. ---:::---
V0RL0N	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:14:00 - [11] Quote: and what will this do to t1 BS missioning/ratting? My point exactly. New NPCs effect will be in no matter how T2 BS will look like (Assaul stats or not). T1 missioning and ratting will be the same with or without T2 BS, harder. Quote: so u can either make no money for high risk in a cheap(ish) t1 BS, or make no money for low risk in a very expensive and highly skilled t2 BS? Yup. Making little money with T2 high skilled BS should be an option. If you want to train that hard and pay that much for a ship just to do lvl4 missions that SUCK now, fine by me. Quote: so the only way of killing a t2 BS for less rich/experienced corps will be the uberblob? this is simply another way of making it less likely new players will get anywhere in the game How do you kill a normal T1 BS if your corp has only cruisers/frig, 1v1 ?? Killing an advance ship would require a gang of lesser ships dont you think ? Quote: no, but they do make it completely outclassed, which will almost certainly lead to stuff being made harder (lvl4s, high lvl complexes, 0.0 ratting) so that it is a challenge for t2 BSs. this would make it impossible to do in t1 BSs, or require a larger group to do, making it unprofitable There are many outclassed ships. Tbh, all ships are outclassed be the newest addition to the game in their class. And all current ships will be outclassed sooner or later by the future addition. Quote: ZOMG - i have played seven months! waaaaaaah - i want a death star! Go to the last level of the Sansha 10/10 complex. There is your deathstar Quote: oh, so i will get my death star Told you where to get it already
V0RL0N	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:23:00 - [12] Use EW. Make the ganka be a sitting duck. There is not an "I win button" Buy yourself a t2 ganka to be a match.
MOS DEF	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:28:00 - [13] Originally by: V0RL0N Use EW. Make the ganka be a sitting duck. There is not an "I win button" Buy yourself a t2 ganka to be a match. Well said and therefore QFTT.
RedClaws	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:29:00 - [14] Originally by: V0RL0N Use EW. Make the ganka be a sitting duck. There is not an "I win button" EW itself comes pretty close atm
Lagar	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:31:00 - [15] OMG peeps... They are not even Final and you still complain!?!? CHILL.... just sugest against it... the resistances... gezz
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.09.03 12:36:00 - [16] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 03/09/2005 12:37:10 Who cares about what theyll do to NPC hunting? T2 Bs will ruin the balance of everything, i dont care all that much because ill be getting one anyway if CCP ever releases Hac Style t2 bs, i feel sorry for those who wont though On the other hand, CCP did say they would never release hac style bs. They where gonna be leadership/command flagship style ships. Plus, T2 doesnt always have to mean more damage. Hell at this point releasing anything that does more damage is silly. ------------------ [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
R31D	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:03:00 - [17] I'm not whining because I know CCP won't make REHABs (well, not HAC-like resistances). Simple enough Free bumpage for all
The Praetor	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:04:00 - [18] Originally by: V0RL0N 5. Damage Inflation. This is normal with any MMO game that needs to add content on a regular basis. Any subscription based game will need to add content constatly. And this content always require damage inflation. We, as human beings, always need for something more damaging, more powerfull, etc to "play" with. Yes I can see it now: 2006.01.01 12:14:55combatYour Galactic Anihilation Cannon I barely scratches Some Dude<FUK>(Revelation), causing 6548941291902348701928374098709187234.1 damage. 2006.01.01 12:14:57combatYour Mobile Genocide Unit I barely scratches Some Dude<FUK>(Revelation), causing 6548979751515489484132165198484561511235165489789.1 damage. (Stay tuned for the Tech II models of these, coming soon!)
V0RL0N	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:29:00 - [19] Originally by: The Praetor Originally by: V0RL0N 5. Damage Inflation. This is normal with any MMO game that needs to add content on a regular basis. Any subscription based game will need to add content constatly. And this content always require damage inflation. We, as human beings, always need for something more damaging, more powerfull, etc to "play" with. Yes I can see it now: 2006.01.01 12:14:55combatYour Galactic Anihilation Cannon I barely scratches Some Dude<FUK>(Revelation), causing 6548941291902348701928374098709187234.1 damage. 2006.01.01 12:14:57combatYour Mobile Genocide Unit I barely scratches Some Dude<FUK>(Revelation), causing 6548979751515489484132165198484561511235165489789.1 damage. (Stay tuned for the Tech II models of these, coming soon!) Yeah, every comunity has its "wise" guys. If you cant think in resonable limits then dont post and make a full out of yourself. In old age: One slinger barely strikes a person doing few kgf/cm2. Now a naval gun is doing gazzilion times more damage !! How about nuclear bombs? But for your narrow thinking, YES if Eve will be still playing in 10,000 years, then YES this damage will happen. When i was talking about damage inflation, then i was talking about it at resonable increment steps. Nuff said about a "clever" comment.
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:41:00 - [20] Original poster is right. Anyone arguing is wrong.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:49:00 - [21] Uber-BSs would surely widen the gap further between new players and 'vets.' Whilst everyone points out 'diminishing returns' the T2 introduction meant that was no longer completely the case and T2 battleships with what will be high skill requirements will make it even harder for newer players to compete. ---------------------------
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:55:00 - [22] Originally by: VossKarr Originally by: Emno SHAC = Super Heavy Assault Cruiser? Oops! Then how about: SHAB SHAS UHAB UHAS... or . . . . REHAB = Really Elite Heavy Assault Battleship SHAG = super heavy assault gankship There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.09.03 13:56:00 - [23] Edited by: babyblue on 03/09/2005 13:57:34 Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Original poster is right. Anyone arguing is wrong. Even for these forums, thats response is probably the most arrogant and idiotic I can imagine. JUSTIFY. Your name alone doesn't mean **** to me, so this statement of yours is superfluous. I don't want to see Battleships with HAC like resists, unless the role is narrowly defined and the fittings extremely restricted. Anything else would be too unbalancing. The OP argument about Cruisers/Frigates and Battleships does not take into account the HUGE amount of balancing that has occcurred since Tech 1 BS were released that has got us to the state we are in now.
The Praetor	Posted - 2005.09.03 14:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Vilserx Uber-BSs would surely widen the gap further between new players and 'vets.' Whilst everyone points out 'diminishing returns' the T2 introduction meant that was no longer completely the case and T2 battleships with what will be high skill requirements will make it even harder for newer players to compete. Exactly. The current skillgap already discourages many new players (actual new players, not new alts!) from continuing beyond their 1st month.
V0RL0N	Posted - 2005.09.03 14:44:00 - [25] Originally by: babyblue Even for these forums, thats response is probably the most arrogant and idiotic I can imagine. JUSTIFY. Your name alone doesn't mean ** to me, so this statement of yours is superfluous. I don't want to see Battleships with HAC like resists, unless the role is narrowly defined and the fittings extremely restricted. Anything else would be too unbalancing. The OP argument about Cruisers/Frigates and Battleships does not take into account the HUGE amount of balancing that has occcurred since Tech 1 BS were released that has got us to the state we are in now. And how is your response babyblue ? And i assume you took it personally because you're one of the whinners ?? Jesus, you're soooo kewl. You're my raw model in life now. How could i have lived without you as my LIGHT. On the serious note, what are you trying to say, the game is perfect and balanced as it is now ?? So dont add new content EVER cuz wer dont want the balance being screwed ?? What balance are you talking about tbh ?? Can you take a BS in a frig ? Can you take a Dread in a cruiser ? Can you take down a POS in a BS ? **, this game is so UNBALANCED !!! CCP what are you doing ? New content means new situations. It always does. Adapt or go play Solitaire. New stuff can create unbalance, among other things, but it will be FIXED. What are you paying the devs for ? I prefer new stuff that its unbalance then fixed then no new stuff at all ! And who are you babyblue ?? What "the name" has to do with everything ? What's you name "meaning" beside a blue unmatured ? As for the gap between vets and new players, why is there a problem ?? Do you think the game should be/feel the same for vets and new ones alike ?? After 2 and a half year of existance AND in a skill based game ?? Come on think twice before you speak. Beside that, new players always have the option to specialize. First be a good frigate pilot (they are still needed and will always be) then go AF, then HAC and so on. Why do new players must have the same options like the old ones ? Why doesnt anyone speaks from the Vets point of view ? What is the reward for playing this game for more then 2 years if i cant have a NORMAL GAP between me and a newbie ? And how about industrial gap ?? How about those 2-3 persons that have more then 20 T2 BPOs each ?? Should we confiscate their hard worked aquired stuff just to be righteous about things and not to create a gap for new industrial players ? What is with this Robinhood like attitude ?? Dont think utopic !
V0RL0N	Posted - 2005.09.03 14:52:00 - [26] Quote: The OP argument about Cruisers/Frigates and Battleships does not take into account the HUGE amount of balancing that has occcurred since Tech 1 BS were released that has got us to the state we are in now. Forgot to ask you blue kid, what would you prefered, that BS wouldn't have been inserted in the game at all ?? CCP, lets rollback to frigs and cruiser cuz we dont want any unbalance in the game... oh, and no gap !
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.09.03 15:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Vilsix Originally by: V0RL0N As for the gap between vets and new players, why is there a problem ?? Do you think the game should be/feel the same for vets and new ones alike ?? After 2 and a half year of existance AND in a skill based game ?? Come on think twice before you speak. Beside that, new players always have the option to specialize. First be a good frigate pilot (they are still needed and will always be) then go AF, then HAC and so on. Why do new players must have the same options like the old ones ? Why doesnt anyone speaks from the Vets point of view ? What is the reward for playing this game for more then 2 years if i cant have a NORMAL GAP between me and a newbie ? And how about industrial gap ?? How about those 2-3 persons that have more then 20 T2 BPOs each ?? Should we confiscate their hard worked aquired stuff just to be righteous about things and not to create a gap for new industrial players ? What is with this Robinhood like attitude ?? Dont think utopic ! Yep, I'm sorry. New players don't matter. Let's forget about them and just continually add high-end content and discourage newer players. Whilst the problem is small at the moment, hugely powerful T2 BSs would make the problem larger. Yes you can specialise but that will take months. Level 5 frig, level 5 cruiser, level 5 battleship, all the relevant skills to pilot the battleship effectively... Until they get a T2 Battleship it will be hard to be competitive. Oops, alt post. ---------------------------
Vilsix	Posted - 2005.09.03 15:00:00 - [28] Originally by: V0RL0N As for the gap between vets and new players, why is there a problem ?? Do you think the game should be/feel the same for vets and new ones alike ?? After 2 and a half year of existance AND in a skill based game ?? Come on think twice before you speak. Beside that, new players always have the option to specialize. First be a good frigate pilot (they are still needed and will always be) then go AF, then HAC and so on. Why do new players must have the same options like the old ones ? Why doesnt anyone speaks from the Vets point of view ? What is the reward for playing this game for more then 2 years if i cant have a NORMAL GAP between me and a newbie ? And how about industrial gap ?? How about those 2-3 persons that have more then 20 T2 BPOs each ?? Should we confiscate their hard worked aquired stuff just to be righteous about things and not to create a gap for new industrial players ? What is with this Robinhood like attitude ?? Dont think utopic ! Yep, I'm sorry. New players don't matter. Let's forget about them and just continually add high-end content and discourage newer players. Whilst the problem is small at the moment, hugely powerful T2 BSs would make the problem larger. Yes you can specialise but that will take months. Level 5 frig, level 5 cruiser, level 5 battleship, all the relevant skills to pilot the battleship effectively... Until they get a T2 Battleship it will be hard to be competitive.
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.09.03 15:07:00 - [29] Originally by: Vilsix Yep, I'm sorry. New players don't matter. Let's forget about them and just continually add high-end content and discourage newer players. I agree with you, I think its totally unfair that more high-end content is added at this point. I think the devs should wait till everyone has got BS lvl 5 before releasing the tech II BS.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.09.03 15:08:00 - [30] "5. Damage Inflation. This is normal with any MMO game that needs to add content on a regular basis. Any subscription based game will need to add content constatly. And this content always require damage inflation. We, as human beings, always need for something more damaging, more powerfull, etc to "play" with." No, the game expansion doesn't require damage inflation. The mudflation you speak of is a result of very limited creativity of people who design these games, and of time constraints... it's just much easier to add Sword of Extreme Pwnage +1 than to add completely new set of mechanics enhancing the original game. mudflation content is Sword of Even More Extreme Pwnage, where the only thing that changes is the tiny number in your "X hits Y for Z points" popup, and maybe the colour of hat on your wood elf. game enhancing content are things like POS, scanner probes, warp disruptor bubbles, tech.2 production chains... things that can have considerable impact on how the game is played. The former is hardly needed, as all it does is making the players feel they're on never ending treadmill chasing after next shiny gadget that'll become crap once next expansion hits. The latter keeps the game fresh... it's just too bad it's the former that's now considered "normal" :/

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