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Sticky:New Dev Blog: ME SQUASH BUG: Improving the EVE experience

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Orisa Medeem Hedion University Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:46:00 - [31] - Quote While running the game on Sisi there is that extra "CCP Log Server" tool running. When the crash dump upload is triggered it could check if that log server was running and include more information from those logs. It would probably help finding the problem faster if the crash happened in the test server.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 40	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:49:00 - [32] - Quote Solo Drakban wrote: I assume that the uploading of this crash data will be optional? The applications you hold up as examples are opt-in for crash reporting. They do not automatically upload crash information without consent. In fact they bring up nice dialogue boxes on crashing that ask you if they can send the information and include a form for you to give more information on what you were doing when the crash occurred and allow you to review the information that's being sent. Also, a lot of these do include information not directly related to the application such as applications running at the same time. I know you stated in the blog that this isn't the case for the CCP's collection but give the track record of coding "incidents" (boot.ini anybody?) I'd just like to re-confirm that you've checked whatever library it is you're using to make sure that you actually unset all the flags you meant to. From a post in above yours. Quote: Technically speaking, unhandled C++ exceptions cause this to trigger. This would probably normally be when the client closes and it asks you if you want to upload the information and check for fixes. I've left the normal windows error reporting in case there is an issue with our stuff. To kill the enemy and break their toys! It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 702	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:50:00 - [33] - Quote I would also like to know if this is opt-in or mandatory.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 702	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:51:00 - [34] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: From a post in above yours. That refers to the standard Windows thing, and is unclear on the CCP error reporting.
Dr Mercy EC Riders Mech Alliance 6	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:52:00 - [35] - Quote Surprised you didn't have this tech already, but it's good that it's in at last.
Solo Drakban GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:53:00 - [36] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: From a post in above yours. This does not explicitly state that this is for EVE crash reporting, rather than Windows error reporting or 'this is normally what happens during a crash, but we've turned off the dialogue'.

CCP Redundancy C C P C C P Alliance 1	Posted - 2011.10.17 15:54:00 - [37] - Quote Weaselior wrote: That refers to the standard Windows thing, and is unclear on the CCP error reporting. It's currently mandatory, but we'll patch it asap to make it optional.

Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 702	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:01:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Redundancy wrote: Weaselior wrote: That refers to the standard Windows thing, and is unclear on the CCP error reporting. It's currently mandatory, but we'll patch it asap to make it optional. I appreciate that, thanks.
ShipSpinner Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:02:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Redundancy wrote: It's currently mandatory, but we'll patch it asap to make it optional. This, right here, is an example of the responsiveness and willingness to listen we've been waiting for from CCP for a very long time. I wanted to highlight it because I think that this should be pointed out, internally, as the kind of response the players like to see. You took an issue that could have become a source of much angst and rage (most of it admittedly irrational), acknowledged it, and immediately set out on fixing it. The only possible way this could have been a better dev response is if the opt-in was ready by tomorrow's patch, but that would be beyond unreasonable. This is the kind of behavior that gives us faith in Hilmar's statement. Keep it up.
Solo Drakban GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:04:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Redundancy wrote: Weaselior wrote: That refers to the standard Windows thing, and is unclear on the CCP error reporting. It's currently mandatory, but we'll patch it asap to make it optional. Thanks, it's good to hear that it will be optional, but there is still a little bit of ambiguity I'd like clarified: "We'll release with it being mandatory then patch it as some undetermined later date"? Or "we'll get this patched prior to the release"?


CCP Redundancy C C P C C P Alliance 4	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:07:00 - [41] - Quote Weaselior wrote: I appreciate that, thanks. I should probably mention: This doesn't cover the web-browser that we have built in to Eve (it's a different process) - I wouldn't even consider making that mandatory, since you could be interacting with a third party website that we have no business knowing anything about. Most of the rest of the cases of doing stuff in the Eve client already require you to interact with our servers. This change won't be ready for the patch tomorrow since it will need to be both done and tested.

Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 702	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:12:00 - [42] - Quote Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Important Internet Spaceship League 10	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:13:00 - [43] - Quote Will this report when the entire computer hangs up and becomes unresponsive and needs a reboot? I had one last week while playing Eve. I was going to write a bug report but I couldn't think of anything out of the ordinary that was happening when it crashed like that. CPU, GPU, case temps within norm...
Dennie Fleetfoot EVE University Ivy League 11	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:14:00 - [44] - Quote Kinda amazed (but not surprised) that this wasn't already in the game, working in the background. These last few blogs have really been a breath of fresh air and the best evidence yet that CCP have actually listened and fixing what's broke rather than giving us the Shiney stuff hoping we'll forget the bust stuff. Keep it up.
Solo Drakban GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 9	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:17:00 - [45] - Quote Bagehi wrote: Will this report when the entire computer hangs up and becomes unresponsive and needs a reboot? I had one last week while playing Eve. I was going to write a bug report but I couldn't think of anything out of the ordinary that was happening when it crashed like that. CPU, GPU, case temps within norm... If your entire system freezes it won't be possible for the bug reporting mechanism to fire, so, no. Though in general a complete system lock like this is rarely ever the fault of an application, but an indication of a lower-level issue with your system (faulty drivers, bad power, flakey RAM, RF interference, etc).
Omega Tron Amarr Mining Inc Technical Exploration Conglomerate of Hemera 0	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:22:00 - [46] - Quote Just so you know that there are those of us out here who do understand the value that comes from this sort of tooling, so I just adding my thank you to the rest you have. THANK YOU!!!

CCP Redundancy C C P C C P Alliance 4	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:24:00 - [47] - Quote Weaselior wrote: Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1 In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com This won't cause any issues with Eve, but it will mean that we won't be able to see and fix your crashes.

Crusa Alearf Avon Cosmetics 5	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:31:00 - [48] - Quote Awesome addition! Kind of supprised that this wasn't introduced earlier. I've many times thought to myself that the bug reporting process is kind of difficult. Which has kept me from reporting stuff. Good to know that it'll now be automated like oh-so-many of the programs we use these days! CCP you're really moving in the right direction now. I'm glad that I didn't stop believing!
Solo Drakban GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 9	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:34:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Redundancy wrote: Weaselior wrote: Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1 In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com Thank you. While not as good as implementing opt-in from the start, this is a refresh change from the wall of silence we used to receive from CCP from such concerns. Also, I want to say that I have no objections to providing crash information to CCP, in fact I believe it to be a valuable tool for developers to be able to quickly identify and kill bugs. What I do like is to be given the option of submitting the crash data, and reviewing it so that I can confirm that what is being sent is actually what is supposed to be sent. After I've verified this I have no issues about 'rubber stamping' the report until the next patch, during which I like to review the information again. Then again, I understand I'm in the minority, but still, asking permission is just the polite thing to do in any event.
Apollo Gabriel Mercatoris Etherium Cartel 58	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:36:00 - [50] - Quote Excellent addition. Now onto the test server and ease of using it ..?

Salpun Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects 41	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:43:00 - [51] - Quote Apollo Gabriel wrote: Excellent addition. Now onto the test server and ease of using it ..? What operating system are you using. Win = Sisilauncher a big win Mac I think is getting a launcher too- hopefully the new cider engine was requred before it could be released. CCP an update please
Salpun Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects 41	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:43:00 - [52] - Quote Salpun wrote: Apollo Gabriel wrote: Excellent addition. Now onto the test server and ease of using it ..? What operating system are you using. Win = Sisilauncher a big win Mac I think is getting a launcher too- hopefully the new cider engine was required before it could be released. CCP an update please
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 82	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:45:00 - [53] - Quote Confirming the current Sisi build runs on a Mac. CCP, what about bugs that do not result in crashes? Many times these bugs pop up and its unclear what I did that caused them, or how to recreate them, or even if I do figure out how to recreate them, its a low chance that they will happen. Are you planning on adding any tools that lets me save some sort of log data right after I see a bug? Something I do not have to prepare before hand, as I usually do not know beforehand when I will hit a bug. I'm thinking of some background process that's always running and keeps a running log of the last 5 minutes, and when I get a bug I can save that log and send it off to you. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should.
Addergebroed Republic University Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:45:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Redundancy wrote: Weaselior wrote: Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1 In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com This won't cause any issues with Eve, but it will mean that we won't be able to see and fix your crashes. Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes?
Flamehaired Death Caldari Provisions Caldari State 1	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:46:00 - [55] - Quote Good idea on the automatic crash reporter. Now how about a rolling snapshot log file that can be on 24x7 without filling a disk? Bug hunters and Devs are always wanting a log to see what set of circumstances caused an error (crash or not). If the user has some idea of how to consistently reproduce a error that is no problem. But when users have an intermittent bug that refuses to perform on demand and is not so frequent that its sure to happen in the next couple hours - there is a problem. Neither users nor bug hunters want to deal with hours and days worth of log files. When tracking an irksome issue, I personally would not mind a log file that ran continuously but only preserved only the most recent 30 minutes. Something that I can use like a screenshot (and probably with a screenshot) when I see an intermittent error occur. Something to which bug hunters can easily send a log reconfiguration file if the first log file fails to identify the fingerprints of the cause. Something users can reset to defaults with a button push that does not reset all of user cache. (Sounds sort of like what many routers and firewalls do for log files.) Users should not be asked to fill their disks with huge log files (do I even have the space), edit off the tail end of the file (does the user even have proper software to edit to massive log files), or dig in the guts of EVE to configure log files. But bug hunters do need all the info that is practical. EVE does not need more "Yes your screenshot shows an important error. But without a log file or user observed 100% reproducible steps, CCP bug hunters have to ignore your report." Say that automatic crash reporter could even send in that last 30 minute log automatically during next start up if a user option button was set. Of course not all errors crash the client so an easy manual attach needs to be available.
Weaselior BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation 793	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:48:00 - [56] - Quote Addergebroed wrote: CCP Redundancy wrote: Weaselior wrote: Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1 In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com This won't cause any issues with Eve, but it will mean that we won't be able to see and fix your crashes. Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes? Like Solo, I prefer to know what information is being collected from my computer before approving it.
Solo Drakban GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 453	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:48:00 - [57] - Quote Weaselior wrote: Addergebroed wrote: CCP Redundancy wrote: Weaselior wrote: Solo Drakban makes a good point - is mandatory reporting being patched out before release, or in winter expansion 1.1 In the short term, if you're worried about this feature then the best workaround would be to block your computer from accessing http://crashes.eveonline.com This won't cause any issues with Eve, but it will mean that we won't be able to see and fix your crashes. Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes? Like Solo, I prefer to know what information is being collected from my computer before approving it. Indeed.
Callic Veratar Power of the Phoenix 30	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:49:00 - [58] - Quote The advantage of having it mandatory in the short term is that unfiltered crash data frequency will be passed on. Once the number of crashes have (hopefully) been reduced, adding the opt-in filter should have less of an impact. That being said, it's unfortunate that we have to work in such an environment of paranoia where even a beneficial crash reporting tool could be perceived as having an evil ulterior motive.
KFenn Percussive Diplomacy 26	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:50:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Redundancy wrote: When clients stop responding but don't close, that's probably a deadlock or an infinite loop. Neither of these counts as a crash, even if they are sucky. Replace iteration with recursion. Infinite loops cause StackOverflowExceptions. Win. (In all honesty don't do that.) Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director
Phantom Slave Cryogenic Creations 15	Posted - 2011.10.17 16:51:00 - [60] - Quote Addergebroed wrote: Why on earth would you not want to help CCP to fix crashes? Some people aren't comfortable with information leaving their computer and going to somebody else when it has information about said computer. Privacy issues and all.



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