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Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
419
   |
Posted - 2013.04.18 21:31:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Louise Antwoord wrote:Just remove local ! This wouldn't really change anything. The OP would just have to do their PvE the way players do in a wormhole. Instead of having the local chat window front and center, they would have the d-scan window front and center. Instead of warping out as soon as an unfamiliar name appears in local, OP would warp out when an unfamiliar ship appears on d-scan. And the only thing that makes d-scan less "free" than local is having to spam the scan button. Yeah but the difference is that the OP would be actively doing something to gather intel. Plus, the range of D-scan is limited to 14AU and you can't see cloaked ships on D. I don't think local should be removed but it should be changed in a way that involved a players active participation.
Because mashing the d-scan button over and over is so much effort and such a noticeable level of participation. |
KuroVolt
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 21:39:00 -
[32] - Quote
They do have a chance to get you.
You are just really good at not getting got! |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
633
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 21:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nuela wrote:His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.
well. he is right.
And eve Online already gives a chance to them to catch you.
Just imagine: you aligned, they appeared and... disconnect/lag.... You killed.
No reimbursement (logs show nothing).
This is the chance they have all the time to catch you and the chance you have all the time to get caught.
Nothing to worry about
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
8721
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 21:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nuela wrote:Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.
I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:
- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.
So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.
His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.
Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.
The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?
If they get you, you didn't do everything right.
If they don't get you, they didn't do everything right,
If they really, truly want to get you and they're prepared to put the work in, they will; then you'll have to buy another ship.
Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Polarized.
677
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Louise Antwoord wrote:Just remove local ! This wouldn't really change anything. The OP would just have to do their PvE the way players do in a wormhole. Instead of having the local chat window front and center, they would have the d-scan window front and center. Instead of warping out as soon as an unfamiliar name appears in local, OP would warp out when an unfamiliar ship appears on d-scan. And the only thing that makes d-scan less "free" than local is having to spam the scan button. Yeah but the difference is that the OP would be actively doing something to gather intel. Plus, the range of D-scan is limited to 14AU and you can't see cloaked ships on D. I don't think local should be removed but it should be changed in a way that involved a players active participation. Because mashing the d-scan button over and over is so much effort and such a noticeable level of participation.
Sarcasm is the lowest for of whit...
I wasn't suggesting that d-scanning was the most skill based and interesting thing to do but what i did was a fact, like it or not.
Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Polarized.
677
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Nuela wrote:His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd. well. he is right. And eve Online already gives a chance to them to catch you. Just imagine: you aligned, they appeared and... disconnect/lag.... You killed.
No reimbursement (logs show nothing).This is the chance they have all the time to catch you and the chance you have all the time to get caught. Nothing to worry about
LMAO so lag and disconnects are a game balancing method now? Ridiculous 
Is my bitter vet membership card in the mail? |
Markku Laaksonen
EVE University
Ivy League
115
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Rek Seven wrote:He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you. Has there ever been a thread about brainstorming ideas intelligence gathering methods in the hypothetical case that local gets removed/nerfed? If not, we definitely need one.
Such a thing has never before been attempted. You and I shall embark on this endeavor and emerge with such fame and glory as we cannot yet imagine. No man will be our forum equal. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics
K162
1648
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
Trust me, there is no such thing as 100% safe.
Just because theyre not smart enough to catch you does not mean it is impossible. No issue here. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1393
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:March rabbit wrote:Nuela wrote:His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd. well. he is right. And eve Online already gives a chance to them to catch you. Just imagine: you aligned, they appeared and... disconnect/lag.... You killed.
No reimbursement (logs show nothing).This is the chance they have all the time to catch you and the chance you have all the time to get caught. Nothing to worry about LMAO so lag and disconnects are a game balancing method now? Ridiculous
I think the point was "you're aligned, they show up and anything makes you slip by a second will probably get you killed"
Really, if they were good, they'd meet you at fanfest this year and somehow get your home or mobile phone number (it's "so and so" in your corp, can't believe that we live on the other side of town ... etc), then give you a ring just as they were getting ready to hop into system so that they know you're distracted by either a) having to answer the phone or b) the conversation itself.
Alternatively, they'll just cut the power to your house. 
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Malcanis for CSM8 |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
Cosmic Consortium
3258
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 01:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
Just point out to them that the tactics you are using are exactly the same tactics they use to avoid blobs.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Spurty
V0LTA
Verge of Collapse
840
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 03:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Because mashing the d-scan button over and over is so much effort and such a noticeable level of participation.
The ultimate dumb down
Turn the game into daily thompsons Olympics (mash mash mash).
CCP make it a game if button mashing, they can say good bye to those that play a game where brain beats brawn.
Tl;dr if you think mashing d scan is the fix for local you better get used to playing with arcade beat me up types
---
GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥
GÇò Philip K. **** |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1559
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 04:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:You've covered all the important safety measures used in null there. I'd be extremely surprised if someone not blue were able to get you. Good old life in the blue donut huh?  Still waiting on them removal local for null, that would be sweet.
People catch folk all the time. You are just bad at video games. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
572
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 05:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Nuela wrote:..but I'm thinking more broad...like local being removed, dscan gimped something that makes it so one CAN'T be perfectly prepared.
Should a predator be able to catch prey in Eve where the Prey is doing everything in his/her power to not be caught or should the Prey have to make a mistake or not be fully cautious?
I think my OP is poorly phrased becuase that is the question I'd like to see what people think.
The OP goes wrong when he asks "should". In the real world, there "should" be candy crapping unicorns that give us anything our heart desires.
What he should ask is, "If you are one of the players that is careful, because you really, really don't want to lose ships, would you continue to do the things you do now, if it became way easier to kill you, while you are doing those things?".
To find out the answer to this question, simply look at the amount of PvE and mining that occurs in a null system with a single cloaky camper. (NONE!)
That is the level of activity there would be if it was not possible to "do everything right".
Any mechanic that makes it easier to kill people, will simply result in fewer people doing that activity. Make it impossible to avoid going boom, even if doing everything right, and you cease the activity.
You can't make people play in a way that they are easy to kill.
EVE would be way more fun for PvPers, if they spent more time figuring out how to PvP other players that are looking for a fight, instead of wasting so much time fretting over how hard it is to kill people that are trying to avoid PvP.
The people that want to avoid PvP will find a way to do it, by not playing EVE, if no other mechanisms are available.
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2577
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 06:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
Watch local, warp off, 100% safety without any effort. So easy a bot could do it.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Moneta Curran
Lunar Industries Ltd
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 07:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
If you manage, though alertness, experience and cunning, to stay one step ahead, props to you.
Aggressors are no more entitled to a gank than targets are to immunity from harm. This is the basic premise of the game. |
Anunzi
High House Of Shadows
Tribal Band
108
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 07:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Nah, you did everything correctly OP. I donGÇÖt see why they should catch you unless you drop the ball.
Malcanis for CSM8, Its about damn time.
A vote for Malcanis is a vote for bacon! |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:25:00 -
[47] - Quote
A hunter's best weapon is his patience. It sounds like they need to spend some more time sharpening their spears.
With that said, practically, your question breaks down to: Should you be able to instantly know who is in a given system without any specialized ships, modules, or other cumbersome devices that would add cost for acquiring that knowledge? Should you be able to create a place anywhere in EVE like a POS, where you are immune to virtually any interaction for potentially almost 2 days? Should you or your devices (i.e. combat probes) ever be rendered completely hidden from other players while still "in play"? |
Uzbeg Khan
Spartan Advanced Mining
R O G U E
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:30:00 -
[48] - Quote
You're not doing it right unless you dock up when not everyone in local is blue 
Things I hate:
- Forums
- Irony
- Lists |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
762
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:34:00 -
[49] - Quote
Think about it like this; if you're doing everything right, and that still leaves a window of opportunity, then an attacker doing everything right is always going to land point and kill you.
As it is, we don't have that window, so 'defenders' are rewarded for doing their job. ... I think it's much better this way. Sloppy mission runners still die in droves. Why should it be that a mission runner doing everything in their power to stay safe should be a free kill? That would be terrible and drive away a lot of people.
Hunting mission runners is pretty lowly anyway. Why does he want his low risk activity to be even more rewarding? You should probably just give him some smack about being a peasant and move on.
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
634
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:41:00 -
[50] - Quote
Halete wrote:Think about it like this; if you're doing everything right, and that still leaves a window of opportunity, then an attacker doing everything right is always going to land point and kill you.
wouldn't it be more interesting if window of opportunity is present for both parties?
- target does 100% right but it has small chance to be caught
- attacker does 100% right but it has small chance to miss?
|
Uzbeg Khan
Spartan Advanced Mining
R O G U E
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
Halete wrote:
Dude above me: your signature ought to read;
Things I hate:
- Signatures
- Irony
- Lists
<3
Chick below me, you're right. Chicks below me always are 
Things I hate:
- Signatures
- Irony
- Lists |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
763
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
What do you mean 'small chance'? Without introducing a random element, landing tackle is just a numbers game. If you give mission pockets some kind a spool up time on warp, one of three things will happen;
- Mission runners will die in droves
- Mission runners will just more frequently warp when non-blues are in Local, instead of on long-scan; this isn't good for either party
- Mission runners will keep alts in chokes and watch intel, warping off before people even enter Local
Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Dave Stark
2674
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:03:00 -
[53] - Quote
seems i'm late to the party.
has any one stated the obvious yet? if you were doing everything right, you wouldn't get tackled? |
Nuglord
Heretic University
Atrocitas
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:09:00 -
[54] - Quote
In a short answer - no.
A pilot flying perfectly still falls within the constraints of the game's mechanics. Should a player that participates in PvP be provided a free opportunity to attack a ship that is fully prepared and a pilot that is adequately aware of the way the game works? Obviously the answer is no, and the same is true in all solar systems, Nullsec or otherwise. You're taking steps to protect your investment, and naturally this decreases the risk you're taking. As you're fully aware, there's still a chance your enemies could still pull off some elaborate scheme, but at that point, the time invested on their part is probably not even worth it. |
Aracimia Wolfe
The Cursed Navy
236
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:19:00 -
[55] - Quote
Roime wrote:spam dscan, warp off, 100% safety without any effort. So easy a bot could do it.
There I fixed that for you.
Also: Effort = reward
Malcanis for CSM 8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717
\o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ m8m8m8m8m8m8m8 o7
|
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Drunk 'n' Disorderly
642
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
They fail, You prevail.
Simple as that.
/thread
"Also, your boobs  " -á
CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Azura Dante
SuperCapital Transfers Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:24:00 -
[57] - Quote
Erik Kaassan wrote:The answer to this one is just obvious. The game doesn't take sides.
If he surprises you and turns you into a pile of scrap metal then you were obviously unprepared. If not then he was unprepared. There is no reason you should be punished for playing smarter than him.
Perfectly sentenced :) |
Old Fellow
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:27:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nuela wrote:Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.
I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:
- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.
So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.
His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.
Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.
The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?
You did everything perfectly, and yes if they played smarter they may have got you with log off tactics, well played.
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
4610
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Because mashing the d-scan button over and over is so much effort and such a noticeable level of participation.
The ultimate dumb down Turn the game into daily thompsons Olympics (mash mash mash). CCP make it a game if button mashing, they can say good bye to those that play a game where brain beats brawn. Tl;dr if you think mashing d scan is the fix for local you better get used to playing with arcade beat me up types
Welp, that's pretty much what'll happen if local gets removed.
You can't remove local without giving us something that gives us a reasonable amount of information.
The bare minimum is something that tells you that there are ships within a certain radius (5 AU seems like a minimum acceptable range for this), whether they are cloaked or not. Uncloaked ships may give more information than cloaked ships.
Things that are stupid would be any chance-based mechanic to include or miss ships, minimum times between scans any longer than a few seconds (depending on the range), and anything that would exclude cloaked ships.
Dscan works for wormhole space as a replacement for local because of the limitations of wormhole space, specifically because of things like the group nature of PVE content there, the fact that hot drops are impossible, and because of mass limitations and how the links between systems are always changing and require scanning.
A good portion of PVE content also requires probes to scan down, which are also of course visible on dscan.
Malcanis for CSM 8
Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
66
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 22:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:[
To find out the answer to this question, simply look at the amount of PvE and mining that occurs in a null system with a single cloaky camper. (NONE!)
That is the level of activity there would be if it was not possible to "do everything right".
In a Wormhole, it's already not possible to always do everything right. There is always a chance there is a cloaky in system, that will point you long enough for a dictor to get on grid from outside dscan range. Then bring enough friends to send you to K space on the pod express.
And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.
So no. |
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