Nah. That's the whole point of GÇ£doing everything right.GÇ¥

His failure is not indicative of a broken game.

Should a predator be able to catch prey in Eve where the Prey is doing everything in his/her power to not be caught or should the Prey have to make a mistake or not be fully cautious?

He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you.

He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you.

Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.

I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:

- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.

So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.

His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.

Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.

The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?

He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you.

Has there ever been a thread about brainstorming ideas intelligence gathering methods in the hypothetical case that local gets removed/nerfed? If not, we definitely need one.

I'm thinking more broad...like local being removed, dscan gimped something that makes it so one CAN'T be perfectly prepared.

Step 1: add you as a contact on watchlist to know when you are usually only.

Step 2: run locator agents to know what systems you pve in.

Step 3: monitor the evemap statistics in that area to see when the vest time to sneak a force in is.

Step 4: sneak in a known pve haunt when you are offline with combat ships and some good probers.

Step 5: log off, go play on alt accounts that have you on their watch list.

Step 6: whenever you log in, run locator agents.

Step 7: once you seem to busy with pve, send Convo invite as distraction, log in and attempt to trap you.


Optional steps, try to sneak some drag bubbles in.

Not sure what else you could do, but that is probably the best way to try to trap someone. Probably won't work.

Should someone have a chance to tackle a PvE'r that is doing everything right?

Chess is a simple game. and has its limitations.

Should a predator be able to catch prey in Eve where the Prey is doing everything in his/her power to not be caught or should the Prey have to make a mistake or not be fully cautious?

Just remove local !

So they should be punished for using a game provided resource to get a leg up on potential predators? Did I get redirected to the World of Warcrap forums?

This wouldn't really change anything. The OP would just have to do their PvE the way players do in a wormhole. Instead of having the local chat window front and center, they would have the d-scan window front and center. Instead of warping out as soon as an unfamiliar name appears in local, OP would warp out when an unfamiliar ship appears on d-scan.

And the only thing that makes d-scan less "free" than local is having to spam the scan button.

Yeah but the difference is that the OP would be actively doing something to gather intel. Plus, the range of D-scan is limited to 14AU and you can't see cloaked ships on D.

I don't think local should be removed but it should be changed in a way that involved a players active participation.

His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.

Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.

I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:

- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.

So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.

His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.

Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.

The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?

Because mashing the d-scan button over and over is so much effort and such a noticeable level of participation.

well. he is right.

And eve Online already gives a chance to them to catch you.

Just imagine: you aligned, they appeared and... disconnect/lag.... You killed.
No reimbursement (logs show nothing).

This is the chance they have all the time to catch you and the chance you have all the time to get caught.

Nothing to worry about

Has there ever been a thread about brainstorming ideas intelligence gathering methods in the hypothetical case that local gets removed/nerfed? If not, we definitely need one.

LMAO so lag and disconnects are a game balancing method now? Ridiculous

Because mashing the d-scan button over and over is so much effort and such a noticeable level of participation.

You've covered all the important safety measures used in null there. I'd be extremely surprised if someone not blue were able to get you.

Good old life in the blue donut huh?

Still waiting on them removal local for null, that would be sweet.

..but I'm thinking more broad...like local being removed, dscan gimped something that makes it so one CAN'T be perfectly prepared.

Should a predator be able to catch prey in Eve where the Prey is doing everything in his/her power to not be caught or should the Prey have to make a mistake or not be fully cautious?

I think my OP is poorly phrased becuase that is the question I'd like to see what people think.

Think about it like this; if you're doing everything right, and that still leaves a window of opportunity, then an attacker doing everything right is always going to land point and kill you.

Dude above me: your signature ought to read;

Things I hate:

- Signatures
- Irony
- Lists

<3

spam dscan, warp off, 100% safety without any effort. So easy a bot could do it.

The answer to this one is just obvious. The game doesn't take sides.

If he surprises you and turns you into a pile of scrap metal then you were obviously unprepared. If not then he was unprepared. There is no reason you should be punished for playing smarter than him.

Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.

I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:

- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.

So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.

His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.

Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.

The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?

The ultimate dumb down

Turn the game into daily thompsons Olympics (mash mash mash).

CCP make it a game if button mashing, they can say good bye to those that play a game where brain beats brawn.

Tl;dr if you think mashing d scan is the fix for local you better get used to playing with arcade beat me up types

[
To find out the answer to this question, simply look at the amount of PvE and mining that occurs in a null system with a single cloaky camper. (NONE!)

That is the level of activity there would be if it was not possible to "do everything right".

If pre-emptive tactical preparations can be planned out as precisely as yours. Then I would think that is why they cannot track you. Chess is a simple game. and has its limitations. If you know what to do as well as what not to do. The complexity of the challenge is what thrills many players. Me included. However to become so sure of your tactical wits protecting you from every scenario you could come up with. You may as well taunt your opponent until they flip the table over and claim its broken.

And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.

So no.

The trick is that the people in wormholes are the ones who want that style of play. The ones who aren't in wormholes have already expressed their lack of attraction toward that style of play.

Your sample is self-selecting, which means your conclusion is not valid.

Of course, without local you can still D-scan, use intel channels, etc to stay virtually 100% safe, but it would go a long way to giving the game a bit more fog of war.

Just pointing out the blatant fallacy of "risk = deserted wasteland".

Nah. That's the whole point of GÇ£doing everything right.GÇ¥

His failure is not indicative of a broken game.

If the prey is doing everything 'right' and the predator is doing everything 'right'; the prey easily evades the predator every time.

I would say that is not balanced.

In a Wormhole, it's already not possible to always do everything right. There is always a chance there is a cloaky in system, that will point you long enough for a dictor to get on grid from outside dscan range. Then bring enough friends to send you to K space on the pod express.

And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.

So no.

Making usage tied straight to Sovereignty will fix a lot of these problems.

If a single neut will stop you doing anything, you will lose sov, simple as that, then risk will very much equal reward, for both parties.

My answer would be that Local is a terrible system that needs to go.

Making usage tied straight to Sovereignty will fix a lot of these problems.

If a single neut will stop you doing anything, you will lose sov, simple as that, then risk will very much equal reward, for both parties.

70% of players living in high sec isn't enough for you? You want to move even MORE people to high sec? Really?

Risk without proportional reward = deserted wasteland.

If CCP hamfistedly removed local I'd just grab a bomber, fit a covert cyno and scram on it and decloak right next to somebody running an anomaly, tackle them, light the cyno for a bunch of blackops BS (which have conveniently been given titan range) and kill ratters in easy mode. This isn't a difficult tactic requiring ~skill~, it's hilariously easy. The blackops BS aren't really at risk either, since they can dip to safespots and cloak.

You can say "WELL WITHOUT LOCAL HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY'RE THERE" but you can easily determine that just by looking at the map.

Just to play devil's advocate. The map could equally tell the ratter there's more people around than there should be based on friendlies around. It may also lead to revolutionary things like ratting in a group of pvp fit ships, solo ratting with warp stabs fit (lol), or in a ship that can drop a scramming bomber. Or ECM. Or staying on the move away from celestials so that a cloaked bomber can't get in scram range from the warp-in.

But yeah, 9 out of 10 people would probably just be free food. At least at first.

Clearly the ones who feel the reward is insubstantial would just go to high sec, and the ones who feel it is would expose themselves to go after it. If the rewards did not justify the risk, it would be a clear and separate imbalance.

Let's make 90% of nullsec even more irrelevant, that's a great idea!

You mean the fact that every time I go out into Null, I find a completely deserted system with an TCU in it.

You mean irrelevant like that...Use the space or lose it.

And what % of toons live in wormhole? 5%? You think you prove me wrong, but actually, you prove me right.

Not to mention, if you've not opened your out, and there is no generic in... the odds of that cloaky being there is pretty darn small.

Do you honestly think someone else will see an opportunity to hold a system by "only" getting together a bunch of dudes to run ****** anomalies for 20m/hour

Hint: they won't and your idea is Bad

The point is that (some) people will take any and all risks if the reward is big enough.

The idea that you must mine, rat, do anoms ect in space is a hell of a lot better than the one we have right now, which is large alliances take everything and then pay the fees with isk generated by moon mining. Leaving no space for smaller corps and null empty as hell.

Let's say for a moment, there is a fully upgrade system.. then a cloaky camper shows up with cynos. The owners try to mine, rat, etc, they get hot dropped. They put out a defense fleet, but that of course, is just feeding more kills to the cloaky because they 100% control whether there is an engagement or not, and only engage when they win.

So... you go weeks cloaky camped in, not mining or ratting, because the complete inability to find a cloaky camper is the is the single most stupid mechanic in the history of MMOs. AND, let's say you then lose sov due to inactivity.

Who gets the sov? The cloaky camper? Why? He's not done anything but sit cloaked up, ready to pop a cyno should a target appear, but they don't , because the cloaky camper mechanic is the stupidest game mechanic in the history of MMOs.


Let's say the cloaky camper DOES get sov? Okay, to what end? To sit cloaked up in a system that they can't use, because the original owners put their own cloaky camper in system, so he can't do anything with that system he just took control of?


Before we can even THINK of making activity tied to sov, there has to be a way to counter cloaky campers... Otherwise, no one will hold any sov.

Yeah, 5% of the player base, or so. And those people are already in wormholes.

No of course people shouldn't be punished for playing the game within the rules but the real question is; is a free and instant intel gathering tool (local) a good game mechanic?

It's not a game mechanic at all. It's an unintended consequence of an otherwise normal function.

Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.

I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:

- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.

So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.

His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.

Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.

The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?

In answer to the OP, you did everything right, my feeling is that if you do everything correct you should get away, simple as that.

WH's are not a good example to use to make a case for no local, because in WH's you do not have hot drops, if you ignore that then you are a complete and uttter idiot.

Even without local people could AFK cloaky camp, if you look at the map details you can see the number of people in system and in station, so all you have to do is check how many blues and then compare, easy that, oh we have someone in system, but what does that mean, more sitting around doing nothing until people find that out due to the number of AFK people. So we can spend longer not playing the game...

At the end of the day I could live without local, however the issue is that the map data and Dotlan gives people a quick way to find activity, free intel like local, so they do not have to send scouts to find people, if you classify local as free intel then what about that data, if you ignore that then you are a hyprocrite gank bear looking for easy kills.

And James Amril-Kesh is so very correct in all his replies, the reward will have to go up by a huge margin as the risk is just too great.

The impact would be that even more people would just head back to HS, which is not a good thing...

How does that make it not a game mechanic?

To give some contrast to the example in the OP, when I'm prowling for ratters to gank, I can jump into a system, get my system scanner running, and during those 10 seconds determine what ranges any ratters on my d-scanner are at, compare those to the results from my system scanner, and be in warp to the anomaly a ratter is in less than 15 seconds after jumping into the system. Without resorting to tactics like awoxing, it is as right as you can possibly get when it comes to ganking. Nevertheless, between those 12-15 seconds to locate a target and the 10-15 seconds required for even a very short (<1AU) warp, he's long gone...because he's got a minimum twenty second head start in which to be "right". That same head start means that the PvEr doesn't even have to do everything right to escape - he can be slow and sloppy and still get away.

Food for thought

Tell him:

Well I wasn't 100% prepared, as I left myself vulnerable to receiving your whiny ass convo, so there you go, you got me, with words at least. If your tears were a weapon they'd be a snowball CXV, doing negative damage, but damage nonetheless.

Congrats.

Won't happen again, as you're now on /ignore.

Still, this is only one of the issues. Another is local - the cancer of this game.