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Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:35:00 -
[121] - Quote
Yet you are still here.
And do you want my opinion based on what my corp has indicated? They will whine and scream in corp chat when it comes to AFK cloakers but are too lazy to actually care when someone steps up to offer a solution.
Maybe you are right. Maybe these lazy good for little small potatoes alliances need to be AFKed to hell and back before they realize the issue is not going away on it's own and that it gives the big alliances huge power over the little ones. Maybe JUST maybe then they will actually care to discuss solutions instead of just expecting CCP to bring out the nerf bat one day.
Thing is. In reality my main has never been seriously harmed by AFK cloaking. And I have the RL financial resources to run a small power use computer to AFK cloak if I wanted to. Yet I don't because I think it is wrong and I KNOW it is giving the huge alliances unbalanced power.
With my main I can get into the big alliances that can put up the big fleets to prevent free hotdrops and have cyno jammers on without issue.
Yet I will continue to push this issue and these ideas for solutions. |

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
42
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 18:57:00 -
[122] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote: Thing is. In reality my main has never been seriously harmed by AFK cloaking. And I have the RL financial resources to run a small power use computer to AFK cloak if I wanted to. Yet I don't because I think it is wrong and I KNOW it is giving the huge alliances unbalanced power.
actually, its exactly the other way around. Big alliances dont need afk cloakers, they shoot your stuff to shreds and install their own TCU, if they wanted to. But they cant remove people from NPC space, they cant remove afk cloakers/cloakers, they cant blob the **** everyone they dont like from the space. Those small entities sit in NPC space and do their guerilla warfare, which is only possible due to cloak.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:With my main I can get into the big alliances that can put up the big fleets to prevent free hotdrops and have cyno jammers on without issue.
no. you can do a **** against covert hotdrops, regardless how big your alliance is, somewhere is always an unoccupied system for a mid cyno to move the fleet. And even if there is none, you wont stop a fleet moving by a covert cyno/BO.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Yet I will continue to push this issue and these ideas for solutions. there is no issue, p*ssy |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
762
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 19:35:00 -
[123] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet you seem to have missed my questions to you.
1. You're breaking cloaks, but still want full, 100%, risk free, instant intel from local? Are you saying that is a balanced approach?
2. What mechanic are they using to interact with you, whilst they are AFK?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 20:25:00 -
[124] - Quote
Cloaks are fine..... There are only two issues that need work:
1.) Intel -- The intel tools in this game pretty much consist of metagaming, local, and dscan. Metagaming is about big fights, sov battles, and alliance level warfare. Dscan is great for active intel, good for getting approximate locations and ship types. Local is our passive intel tool.... providing instant knowledge of who's in local. The balance between active and passive intel has much room for improvement, although its not Broken. ... IMO the only change that really should be made is a 10-15s delay between people entering local and appearing in local. This gives the hunter a boon, but doesn't make the hunted hopelessly vulnerable.
2.) Jump Portals -- Jump portals (Titan and BO) provide an interesting mechanic to transport groups of ships directly onto the field of combat. This mechanic is awesome... but it puts the people being hotdropped at a severe disadvantage. Truth be told, they should be at a severe disadvantage. The problem is, the counters to this are destroy the cyno or have a counter hotdrop. Counter hotdrops are only applicable under specific conditions, and there is typically too little time to destroy the cyno before grid fills up with enemies. ... IMO the only change that is needed here is a 15-45s delay between a cyno being lit and enemy ships appearing on grid. The exact timing probably should depend on ship type lighting the cyno, the type of cyno, and testing. Lets assume 30s for as standard BO cyno... If you can't destroy the cyno ship, nor escape the tackle within that time period, you deserve death.
These changes would solve most afk cloaking issues. Hunting for targets, system by system, is no longer so overwhelmingly futile, as you can load grid and start scanning for targets before they initiate warp to a POS. Fighting off the hotdrop from an AFK cloaker would only require a prop mod or a buddy to help kill the cyno before his backup can arrive.
Methods to decloak the afk cloaker are really unnecessary, and over the top. |

Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 20:40:00 -
[125] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I don't wan't AFK cloakers in WH not to be affected. At best give them 3-4 minutes on grid before a cloak probe scan can even register that a random point exists. Otherwise if you AFK in a "hole" as apparently y'all like to call it. You ought to be able to be found and destroyed. WH hisec, lull and null OK, now you're babbling incoherently. There are no afk cloakers in wormholes. There may or may not be ships in the hole cloaked... that's a simple fact of life you learn to accept and deal with. Hell, I've had the crap startled out of me by a stealth bomber uncloaking while I was running my PI. Fortunately, I keep my haulers prepared for that contingency, survived the first torpedo hit and warped off while the second set was in flight. It's simply the way it is. The problem with your idea is you break cloaking, which is working (at least in wormholes) quite fine as is. The problem you're failing to address is that cloaking isn't working well enough in empire space... people can still see you in local when cloaked.
You weren't in a Badger by chance?
I was in a WH quite a while ago in a SB looking for a few kills. The hole I was in had a drake at the POS, hulking minig in a belt, and a maelstorm standing watch over it.
Then I scanned down an indy that looked like it was just sitting there, begging to be shot at. I declocked, and after my first or second salvo, away it went. Surrender is still your slightly less painful option. |

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
403
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 21:29:00 -
[126] - Quote
Marie Hartinez wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I don't wan't AFK cloakers in WH not to be affected. At best give them 3-4 minutes on grid before a cloak probe scan can even register that a random point exists. Otherwise if you AFK in a "hole" as apparently y'all like to call it. You ought to be able to be found and destroyed. WH hisec, lull and null OK, now you're babbling incoherently. There are no afk cloakers in wormholes. There may or may not be ships in the hole cloaked... that's a simple fact of life you learn to accept and deal with. Hell, I've had the crap startled out of me by a stealth bomber uncloaking while I was running my PI. Fortunately, I keep my haulers prepared for that contingency, survived the first torpedo hit and warped off while the second set was in flight. It's simply the way it is. The problem with your idea is you break cloaking, which is working (at least in wormholes) quite fine as is. The problem you're failing to address is that cloaking isn't working well enough in empire space... people can still see you in local when cloaked. You weren't in a Badger by chance? I was in a WH quite a while ago in a SB looking for a few kills. The hole I was in had a drake at the POS, hulking minig in a belt, and a maelstorm standing watch over it. Then I scanned down an indy that looked like it was just sitting there, begging to be shot at. I declocked, and after my first or second salvo, away it went.
You know... my alt has a badger, but he's only been shot at once (caught the bomber pilot's name)... but he's also the drake pilot, so odds are that wasn't us. That one time I was already in warp doing PI runs before he got the shot off too.
Got the ol' heart pumping though, I'll tell you that! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |

Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 22:16:00 -
[127] - Quote
People really are running instantly for the next dock and refuse to come out because somewhere in the system a ship is sitting around doing effectively nothing?
 And are complaining about this?
  For real?
   Seriously, i think there is something wrong with you. "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |

Gilentajsa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 14:05:00 -
[128] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote:People really are running instantly for the next dock and refuse to come out because somewhere in the system a ship is sitting around doing effectively nothing?  And are complaining about this?   For real?    Seriously, i think there is something wrong with you.
I fully agree with this guy, you know, stop being terrified of any neutral in system, stop shooting everyone you see and maybe you'll stop pissing people off and making them want to do things like jump a cap in your face and pillage all your stuffz.
It's simple, you're living in NULL SECURITY space, grow some balls or learn to cloak. s |

Azrael Dinn
19th Star Logistics Elite Space Guild
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 14:11:00 -
[129] - Quote
No offence to the guys who want to cloak and stuff BUT if almost everyone is thinking ideas how to counter afk cloaking doesn't that mean there is a problem in the game mechanics? |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
815
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 16:48:00 -
[130] - Quote
Azrael Dinn wrote:No offence to the guys who want to cloak and stuff BUT if almost everyone is thinking ideas how to counter afk cloaking doesn't that mean there is a problem in the game mechanics? Yes, but not when they focus on the wrong mechanic. Which this idea thread and many like it do.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
297
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 16:51:00 -
[131] - Quote
Azrael Dinn wrote:No offence to the guys who want to cloak and stuff BUT if almost everyone is thinking ideas how to counter afk cloaking doesn't that mean there is a problem in the game mechanics?
So ~50 = "almost everyone" now? While a comparable number are vehemently arguing against changing things?
|

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 13:19:00 -
[132] - Quote
Azrael Dinn wrote:No offence to the guys who want to cloak and stuff BUT if almost everyone is thinking ideas how to counter afk cloaking doesn't that mean there is a problem in the game mechanics?
Sadly the thing is it is not almost everyone. Many while and complain in corp chat but are too damn lazy to get out and discuss in the topics discussing the issue of AFK cloaking.
Hell the people who are doing AFK cloaking are atleast putting the time in to defend their unbalanced activity. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
881
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:48:00 -
[133] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Azrael Dinn wrote:No offence to the guys who want to cloak and stuff BUT if almost everyone is thinking ideas how to counter afk cloaking doesn't that mean there is a problem in the game mechanics? Sadly the thing is it is not almost everyone. Many while and complain in corp chat but are too damn lazy to get out and discuss in the topics discussing the issue of AFK cloaking. Hell the people who are doing AFK cloaking are atleast putting the time in to defend their unbalanced activity. Where as you don't put in the time, to answer pertinent questions regarding your unbalanced approach. 
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow The Revenant Order
81
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:00:00 -
[134] - Quote
The only thing necessary to "balance" or "fix" cloaking is to remove the pilot of the cloaked ship from Local.
Other than that, cloaking is probably one of the most balanced mechanics in the game. Just because people are as afraid of AFK cloakies as they are of their own shadow doesn't mean it should be nerfed.
GTFO here with that weak ****. "War is not measured in terms of who wins or loses, who is right or wrong.-á It is measured in terms of who survives." |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 10:17:00 -
[135] - Quote
Jack Carrigan wrote:The only thing necessary to "balance" or "fix" cloaking is to remove the pilot of the cloaked ship from Local.
Other than that, cloaking is probably one of the most balanced mechanics in the game. Just because people are as afraid of AFK cloakies as they are of their own shadow doesn't mean it should be nerfed.
GTFO here with that weak ****.
So your solution for AFK cloaking giving advantage after advantage is to give them MORE advantages. Ya I think my idea is better.
Also http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Forum_rules Know them. |

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.24 10:45:00 -
[136] - Quote
The object of cloaking is to be undetectatble. The PROBLEM is that local displays you regardless of if you are cloaked or not. Think about any sci-fi movie or programme. The ship that has the cloak is allways totally undectable to the others in the area.
So there really is no need to do anything with cloaking.
Also think of the black ops.... there ability is kinda mute as the second you jump / bridge into a system the whole world knows about it as you show up as a fleet in local. There is nothing black-ops about that.
FIX LOCAL CLOAKING! |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 21:21:00 -
[137] - Quote
I am bumping this because it was revealed today that CCP is taking the first steps against AFK cloaking by preventing cloaked camps of cosmic anomalies to prevent their despawn and respawn.
I would like to again propose my idea to further that effort and remove most incentives to cloak while AFK. |

Miss CEO
Eternum Noctem
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.11 23:45:00 -
[138] - Quote
Cloaking it self is fine.
Fixing anomalies etc. so that they ignore cloaked ships on grid is a good thing too.
Completely destroying cloaking with some kind of probe is the very definition of unbalanced. Only reason these ideas keep coming to surface is the real problem with the whole information gathering business. It is the one single greatest thing that messes up a simple attempt to do anything undetected. It is the local chat.
Fix that and no one will care who's cloaked while making food for kids or changing diapers, or seeing why your kid is suddenly crying, etc... |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 13:05:00 -
[139] - Quote
The solution to AFK Cloaking is not to remove local. That will just boost huge alliances and make it more prevalent.
My probe idea is fair. Because if you cant be bothered to get off grid in the silly long time it takes to scan this random point then you are not just temp AFK you are away from the area or away from the idea of EVE.
Don't remove or delay local. Remove the incentive to go AFK while cloaked. |

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
540
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 13:09:00 -
[140] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:The solution to AFK Cloaking is not to remove local. That will just boost huge alliances and make it more prevalent.
My probe idea is fair. Because if you cant be bothered to get off grid in the silly long time it takes to scan this random point then you are not just temp AFK you are away from the area or away from the idea of EVE.
Don't remove or delay local. Remove the incentive to go AFK while cloaked.
Holy crap, you bumped this cloak-breaking piece of crap suggestion?
The majority agrees... cloaks are fine. Probing out cloaked vessels breaks the entire concept of cloaking and only feeds the botters wallets even more by making null space even safer for them to operate in.
The problem isn't cloaks... it's the fact that you can tell a cloaked ship is there in the first place. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 13:27:00 -
[141] - Quote
I replied to someone again stating the "solution" is some big alliance buffing "remove local" deal. Similar to your idea I might add. Both aid the big alliances just differ in how much they "buff"
My idea targets the incentive to walk away while cloaked for long periods of time. It needs to be implemented or another idea that isn't some part "remove my ass from local so I can getz mah free solo kills for the few months they will line up and be mah target"
|

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
540
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 14:30:00 -
[142] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I replied to someone again stating the "solution" is some big alliance buffing "remove local" deal. Similar to your idea I might add. Both aid the big alliances just differ in how much they "buff"
My idea targets the incentive to walk away while cloaked for long periods of time. It needs to be implemented or another idea that isn't some part "remove my ass from local so I can getz mah free solo kills for the few months they will line up and be mah target"
Not similar. I don't think, personally, that local should be removed in empire space... it does serve a purpose there. However, it shouldn't be infallible. If you remove cloaked vessels from local (and remove the availability of local to cloaked vessels) you also remove the incentive to afk for extended periods of time... namely griefing systems. That's the only reason people AFK cloak... to keep the cowards in systems docked up (bots as well), thus it's a method of isk-denial that depends on the target system's inhabitants inability to function out of fear... in null sec.
The real problem with your proposal is that you make null and wormhole spaces safer. That's the LAST thing they need! The moment you add something like this, you mandate that all wormholes keep a continual net of these probes active to detect whether or not a cloaked vessel is even present... and that's just wrong. You want to change a variety of playstyles simply out of fear of the seen-yet-unknown.
Now... I heard they're making a change so that if someone is cloaked in a plex in null they won't be able to keep it from despawning/respawning elsewhere... that's a good move, I like it. That's taking afk cloaking and abusing it in my personal opinion. But there's nothing wrong with being able to park cloaked in a system for as long as you wish somewhere and simply observe, take notes, and wait... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
59
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:58:00 -
[143] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:I replied to someone again stating the "solution" is some big alliance buffing "remove local" deal. Similar to your idea I might add. Both aid the big alliances just differ in how much they "buff"
My idea targets the incentive to walk away while cloaked for long periods of time. It needs to be implemented or another idea that isn't some part "remove my ass from local so I can getz mah free solo kills for the few months they will line up and be mah target"
why not cloak and walk away from the PC if this gives you kills?? I mean, its how the game is played, if ppl watch local and hide as soon as one enters local, going afk in the said system is only logical step, there is nothing wrong with that! If you dont like bothering about neutrals in local, go back to empire instead of crying to CCP about changing the game to your favors. |

Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 20:20:00 -
[144] - Quote
Because that was not what cloaking was intended for. AFK cloaking really exploded on the scene when the big alliances recently discovered just how useful it is against the smaller ones.
This isn't just Ingvar hiding in his "hole" somewhere. If you are or were in nullsec recently you will see it has become an epidemic. People in alliance chat asking for plex to do AFK cloaking on alts for petes sakes.
The incentive has to go. And removing local wont do that. Just give more incentive to AFK cloak to do real damage against those weaker than the huge alliances in game.
Edit: If it was just Ingvar doing it or just the small potatoes it would be ok. But you cant claim what is going on right now is normal. |

Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
2151
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 08:19:00 -
[145] - Quote
What mechanic are they using to interact with you, whilst AFK?
Come on Endeavour Starfleet, answer the question.
Edit: I'm fully behind CCP, in regards cloaked vessels and the anomaly issue. An AFKer on the other hand, doesn't stop anything.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:19:00 -
[146] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:The whole idea is removing the incentive to AFK. That includes wormholes which are plagued by the practice just as much.
Edit: Also remember that it is a random point. There is no way you can maintain an umbrella over just the area of OPs and expect to uncloak the person. Also the huge scan times would prevent that. Remove the incentive to AFK while docked or in a pos while you're at it. It's only fair. Come put the POS into reinforced. Bubble up the station and destroy the players who eventually undock. Capture the station system and force the player to try to undock to escape or clone jump to do anything. Many ways to counter those types. None to remove an AFK cloak contact that can hotdrop or attack at any time he chooses after a relaxing bath, a night out, or good sleep.
Bubble up the system gates and destroy the cloaker who eventually leaves the system.
I am still seeing no difference between somone using a cloak and you using a station.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |

Charles Edisson
Isk Incorporated
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:15:00 -
[147] - Quote
FFS these are the most unstable forums I've ever used. only about 1 in 3 posts actualy work.
How about fixing your forums CCP aswell as fixing(Breaking) the game. |

Charles Edisson
Isk Incorporated
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:25:00 -
[148] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:The whole idea is removing the incentive to AFK. That includes wormholes which are plagued by the practice just as much.
Edit: Also remember that it is a random point. There is no way you can maintain an umbrella over just the area of OPs and expect to uncloak the person. Also the huge scan times would prevent that. Remove the incentive to AFK while docked or in a pos while you're at it. It's only fair. Come put the POS into reinforced. Bubble up the station and destroy the players who eventually undock. Capture the station system and force the player to try to undock to escape or clone jump to do anything. Many ways to counter those types. None to remove an AFK cloak contact that can hotdrop or attack at any time he chooses after a relaxing bath, a night out, or good sleep. Bubble up the system gates and destroy the cloaker who eventually leaves the system. I am still seeing no difference between somone using a cloak and you using a station.
A station is a fixed visible ATTACKABLE point in space. |

Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
145
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:30:00 -
[149] - Quote
Jint Hikaru wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Endeavour Starfleet wrote:The whole idea is removing the incentive to AFK. That includes wormholes which are plagued by the practice just as much.
Edit: Also remember that it is a random point. There is no way you can maintain an umbrella over just the area of OPs and expect to uncloak the person. Also the huge scan times would prevent that. Remove the incentive to AFK while docked or in a pos while you're at it. It's only fair. Come put the POS into reinforced. Bubble up the station and destroy the players who eventually undock. Capture the station system and force the player to try to undock to escape or clone jump to do anything. Many ways to counter those types. None to remove an AFK cloak contact that can hotdrop or attack at any time he chooses after a relaxing bath, a night out, or good sleep. Bubble up the system gates and destroy the cloaker who eventually leaves the system. I am still seeing no difference between somone using a cloak and you using a station.
^This. Alternatively, get friends and kill the cloaker who eventually decides to attack you.
|

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:53:00 -
[150] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Because that was not what cloaking was intended for. AFK cloaking really exploded on the scene when the big alliances recently discovered just how useful it is against the smaller ones. so you exactly know what CCP intended cloak for?? How that? Larger alliances dont need afk cloakers in order to kick you in the balls, they just come, put SBUs in your system, shoot your crap and take the sov.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:The incentive has to go why?? If he decides to pay a whole account just for camping one single system of eve, why not?? Its a valid decision.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:And removing local wont do that ofc. Most people do afk cloaking because the people in that system arent killable at all, thanks to local. So if you use the local for your safely, why should an attacker not use the same local for stalking?? Thats all fine.
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:Just give more incentive to AFK cloak to do real damage against those weaker than the huge alliances in game. look above, those "huge alliances" dont need crap like afk cloakers, if they want, they come and steamroll you. Its rather the other way around, afk cloaking is the way to harass larger alliances by smaller ones, because you cant remove them as easy as the sov can be removed, assumed you got a huge amount of people on your side. You have no clue.
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