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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1514
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Posted - 2013.05.07 21:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Verified reports state that at approximately 19:45 CONCORD time on 05.07.YC115, 14-17 (reports vary) Republic Fleet Naglfars jumped into the Federation sovereign territory of Colelie above the rings of the sixth planet, a gas giant. They were met by a roughly equal force of Federation Navy Moros, to the count of 15-18.
Federation Navy commander Stolle Colalle demanded the Minmatar forces withdraw back to Republic space, while Republic commander Leralduin Olf rejected the ultimatum and demanded free passage through Federation space. Neither side was willing to stand down, resulting in the outbreak of hostilities.
From the outset, the tactical situation strongly favored the Federation fleet, with the Moros well within firing range and sporting a much higher raw damage output. After siege modules were activated, both fleets were locked in the brawl. The Republic fleet was destroyed to the last man, with 6 Moros remaining on field.
Non-lethal ECM intervention by the FCORD fleet proved impossible due to the EWAR immunity provided by siege modules. After a failed attempt to resolve the situation using energy neutralizers, FCORD fleet commander "Grideris" ordered open guns on specified Naglfars. Electus Matari and assorted Republic supporters were also on field openly engaging the Moros in defense of their kin. Various independent capsuleers engaged at will.
While the final death toll is still being tallied, the engagement resulted in a minor victory for the Federation with a heavy loss of life. It remains to be seen how the respective governments will treat the situation.
ADDENDUM:
Roughly ten to twenty minutes after the final Naglfar was destroyed, CONCORD DED Brigadier General Odo Korachi arrived on the scene, ordering all pilots to cease fire or risk a global criminal flag. It is assumed the order was directed at capsuleers, as the remaining Moros who had not yet succumbed were not firing on capsuleers. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
118
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mentas Blaque and Thoun Gatarau.... How many souls have you slaughtered today? Now and in the future?
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Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
61
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Posted - 2013.05.07 21:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Exactly what did the Republic hope to achieve with this reprehensible attack? I have to wonder.
One thing is perfectly clear. All aid of any sort given by the Federation to the Republic, be it economic or material, needs to be stopped right now, if it hasn't been stopped already, until severe reparations are made.
We are arming these people. We have been arming them for a long time, far too long. It needs to stop, now. |
Sixx Vicious
Fallen Supremacy
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
This was a sads sad day...
Soter, how about you do not point the fingers at Blaque or Gatarau. They did not launch an assault at us, they did not pull the republic fleets trigger when they chose to attack the Federation forces. The Republic forces given many chances to stand down, yet they persisted their attack. they claimed their orders came high up the chain of command.
Federation pushed back the assault, but this day should have never happened. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Just going to copypaste this here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=233306
Today at about 16:00 I and some other known loyalists received a request from the Republic Fleet to assist in an operation to forcibly extradite the shooter of Karin Midular from Federation care. The leader of the operation was given as General Aruko Aruman of the Republic Fleet; point of contact was Heder Elislar. I stated my opinion that I thought the operation was madness and that the Fleet should stand down, but under what for me counts as orders gathered a patrol force to support.
I was at no point given further intel about the exact plans of the Fleet. I went into Bei with the goal of coming out of this without having to engage and without betraying my oath to the Minmatar Republic. I failed in the first.
At about 20:00 local a Republic Fleet capital wing entered Colelie and demanded passage further. Federation Navy capital wing denied. Words were exchanged. Both in public and in private I and others from Electus Matari pleaded for the Republic Fleet to stand down, but this was in vain. When the Republic Fleet engaged, I was told by the officers in charge of the capitals that this was under orders "from the top".
Being an oath-bound warrior of the Republic I could personally see no other option than to follow the Fleet. I did not agree with the order and I agree with our current leadership even less, but to refuse simply because I found the order disagreeable would have gone against everything I have spoken for during my career in space.
I gave the order to the EM fleet to engage; the pilots with me should not be blamed.
We lost.
To whom it may concern: Electus Matari does not agree with this course of action. This is not the way to treat our allies. This is not the way to win the war with the real enemy. This is not the way to honor the legacy of the Ray. We followed our leaders now, but we warn you to remember that you can only lead free people to where they are willing to follow. The Matari people in space have always been divided into two: those who cherish war for the sake of honor and emotion, and those who rather avoid it for the sake of long-turn survival of our people. When the Ray was in charge, she managed to balance the two for a long time. The "Sanmatar" now needs to do the same.
Elsebeth Rhiannon Director, Gradient Diplomat, Electus Matari |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
118
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
The problem is, there was a solution to this problem. Mentas Blaque simply placed the priority of his Black Eagles above that of an alliance that has lasted for decades. When you start placing your misguided paranoia above the needs of your friends, that is when you have gone disasterously wrong. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
40
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Soter, stop talking sense!
I'm not surprised by what happened today. Disappointed? Maybe. Surprised? No. Lately it seems like both the Republic and the Federation are all too willing to throw the other to the wolves for fairly trivial reasons.
The Federation-Republic alliance is decades old, as Soter says. All the same, history is littered with wars between former allies with at least as much history. Perhaps this alliance's time has simply come. Bio and writing |
Graelyn
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
441
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
It's unfortunate that it took the Federation this long to to encounter a scenario that would show them the true face of Shakor's Republic.
The Caldari State is now the ONLY one of the Empires that has not been forcibly invaded by this government. Not this nation, but This Government.
I do not lightly make this statement given the closeness of recent tragedy, but the Republic led by Karin Midular would never have been this stupid, bloodthirsty, or reckless. The magnitude of her loss is made painfully evident not 24 hours after her passing; she was the only hope that any disciple of peace had for Amarr and Matari. It is apparent now that there is also little hope for peace between the Matari and anyone else.
CONCORD should take a long hard look at the members of it's charter. Then they should remember how many lives they lost to a sneak attack by a Shakorite Warfleet.
In a few short years, this government has boldly and blatantly attacked nearly every other CONCORD signatory entity, and CONCORD itself.
CONCORD should remove the Minmatar Republic as a member state of the Yulai Convention until this chaotic rouge regime can be ended. + Cardinal Graelyn + Owner/Operator, "The Summit" YR113 Amarr Loyalist of the Year
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BloodBird
Mixed Metaphor
175
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:Mentas Blaque and Thoun Gatarau.... How many souls have you slaughtered today? Now and in the future?
Disgusting, treasonous bastard, why don't you get off your high horse for a while and smell the crisp, burning flesh for a bit?
Tonight, the only ones smiling and laughing are the repugnant Angel and Sansha loyalists running around our space shooting our navies at will in the middle of a gigantic political incident with hundreds of thousands of lives as a price-tag.
Inability to see the other side of an argument lead to the utter obliteration of an alliance lasting for the better part of a century, if not more. Pointing fingers and complaining serves no purpose tonight. You personally called for "Freedom of Information" that the FIO share case-sensitive intel with the Capsuleer community - and soon after leaked specops intel right to the public like a complete moron. We may very well have you to thank for the undesirables showing up to abduct surviving crews right out of the breaking wrecks on the field.
You have no credibility anymore, and no authority that I feel any need to acknowledge. Shut the hell up, stop pointing fingers, and let the widows weep in peace.
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Sakura Nihil
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
208
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
"Free passage" for a small dreadnought fleet... usually, regardless of whether that passage is granted or not, things tend to end badly.
I suggest both sides pull their heads out of their asses before the Amarrians get any ideas. 10 Thoraxes, 3 Minutes Star Fraction vs. Band of Brothers
https://truestories.eveonline.com/ideas/940-10-thoraxes-3-minutes |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2731
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Immediate AAR SSTG Field Report: Broadcast: Sisters of Eve Bureau, Arnon.
On 5.7.YC115 an engagement between the Federation and Republic fleet ensued for reasons not yet fully UNDERSTOOD. While not equipped with any equipment for mitigating damage as a means of deescalation to the conflict, SSTG Ballistica was assigned to a rescue mission of picking up escaped crew from all sides of the conflict.
Sansha and Blood raider pirates and capsuleer sympathizers were also reported on the field kidnapping escaped crew. How many were kidnapped is not yet know, and there are no estimates.
13,504 escaped crew were rescued, 377 perished from injuries afterwards. During this rescue mission, SSTG Ballstica began to experience multiple electrical shorts due to blood seeping below the deck plates of the cargo hold. Firefighting efforts were also hindered from the halls being crowded with rescued crew and hence burning sections could not be vented to space as a firefighting method. An additional 157 rescued crew perished from smoke inhalation by the time of arrival at the Sisters of Eve Bureau in Arnon. The Sisters of Eve Bureau was the nearest station with the proper resources to take this many wounded at once.
All rescued crew are granted sanctuary in SSTG hangar facilities until such time that transport is arranged for their return to their homes. Republic crew are NOT to be taken as prisoners of war.
Federation crew members are released once they are fit to do so.
Federal security assets seeking to interrogate Republic crew will only be permitted to do so under a signed warrant.
A report for Sister Alitura will be sent to propose that, given the situation that developed on board SSTG Ballistica regarding the electrical shorts and resulting fires from blood seeping through deck plates, new ship designs for the purpose of evacuation of casualties, or some kind of equipment that can be used to modify existing hulls, are long overdue. It's asked that other capsule pilots involved in humanitarian missions of this nature or will be should also lend a message of support for this endeavor.
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Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 21:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sakura Nihil wrote:"Free passage" for a small dreadnought fleet... usually, regardless of whether that passage is granted or not, things tend to end badly.
I suggest both sides pull their heads out of their asses before the Amarrians get any ideas.
I agree. |
Tarren Vetal
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Stolle Collale should be ashamed of himsef--he needlessly escalated the confrontation while communicating with the Minmatar fleet, and I am of the opinion the whole fight could have been avoided, or would have remained an uneasy standoff, if he had chosen his words with even a modicum of care.
Regardless, however, the Republic Fleet acted shamefully as well. They cannot have expected the Federation Navy to have allowed a large, hostile force enter Gallente space unchallenged, and the disregard of certain elements of the Minmatar government for due process and the rule of law in the wake of the Midular tragedy is shameful. If the leadership of the Republic wants respect, they should afford basic respect to their allies. The Gallente, as much as it pains me to say, have been exemplary in their handling of this affair, before today.
I have nothing but utmost respect for the capsuleers who tried to stop this fight today. As for the Minmatar partisans and the chaos-seekers who endorsed bloodshed, for no clear goal other than patching up their injured sense of pride, you should be ashamed of yourselves. If the Republic squanders what goodwill it retains in such fits of pique, it will not be long for this world. |
TomHorn
Caldari Waffen Legion
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
Quote:=Julianus Soter]Mentas Blaque and Thoun Gatarau.... How many souls have you slaughtered today? Now and in the future?
You cant keep blaming Black Eagles and FIO Soter. They work for the Goverment. The current Gallente Federation President is Jacus Roden. The buck stops with him . |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2731
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
For once in a long time I actually have fear for the future, and not over strengths of our foes - for there are always foes, but the weaknesses of our allies.
Ambition can be quenched by defeat and fatigue, greed can be cured by loss, hate is beaten by love. Ignorance falls to enlightenment.
But nothing has ever defeated human weakness.
|
Grideris
Fleet Coordination Commission Fleet Coordination Coalition
623
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
I did what I could to keep the peace. I tried to reason with them. I tried to suck the energy from them, remove their will to fight. But they would not listen. It wasn't enough. Blood has been spilt this day by my hands, and now they are stained. Now I'm not sure what I can do.
All I can do is hope this doesn't escalate to another war. There is already enough conflict in this cluster, more violence is not the answer. Think of what Karin Midular would have wanted. The last thing she would want is more death, especially in the wake of her own. http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com - the blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
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Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
343
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Today I stood beside my brothers and sisters of the Republic Fleet and called upon the Gallente to recognise our claim to justice. Not for the first time in recent months have the Gallente shown an insitutional failure to understand the force of a Minmatar cultural imperative at work here. The death of a Ray of Matar is a sacred matter to us, for want of a better word they might grasp. The importance of this matter cannot be overstated.
Our brave brothers of the Fleet who stood their ground at Colelie tonight knew that they could and would not back down from this gesture, this plea for the Gallente to reconsider their position. We must have justice, if we shall not be heard, as we have not been throughout this ordeal, then our point had to be made. That is why I chose to stand by them today, and that is why at the end I disabled my safety switch and allowed for my ship and capsule to be destroyed alongside them.
Doubtless many of you will think this senseless. If so, you do not understand the demands of honour and respect. To do anything less would have been a disservice to their sacrifice.
Today is no victory, but neither is it a defeat. To be defeated would have been to not stand at all. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.-á Join channel JORIS to learn more! |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
895
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Multiple pilots claimed to want a peaceful resolution to this conflict, and when push came to shove most were firing guns into one of either fleets.
Granted the ships could not be jammed due to entering siege mode, but the option to neutralise and repair were both available, and few pilots took the opportunity to do so. My thanks to those who did, and risked their ships repairing despite CONCORD penalties.
With regret CONCORD took to the field itself too late, I had hoped more lives could be saved by this point. Regardless, whether it was terrible diplomacy from members of the Federal Fleet, or the fact the Republic Fleet had no right to be there in the first place. Today was a pointless exchange of bloodshed and casualty counts, a hit to an alliance that does not need further weakening, and a terrible way to honour a woman who spent her life striving for peace.
Great ******* job the lot of you. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
431
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Quote:=Julianus Soter]Mentas Blaque and Thoun Gatarau.... How many souls have you slaughtered today? Now and in the future? You cant keep blaming Black Eagles and FIO Soter. They work for the Goverment. The current Gallente Federation President is Jacus Roden. The buck stops with him . I fail to see how it's their fault that their "allies" invaded their space with intent to fire and then acted upon that intent. |
Tala Kordes
Kordes Pharmaceutical
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
I suppose both sides in this horrible conflict had governments and people to stand up for. I just hope this wont escalate further and destroy the friendship of these two glorious nations! |
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Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
I thought it would be a sad day to see Karin Midular die. Sadly the day just got worse.
I'm most frustrated and angry towards the Republic Fleet, all the while I understand their position, there was no need for all this violence. If they truly cared for Midular they would not have engaged in hostilities in her name, with the Republic's allies, no less. Republic commanders threw their crews life away for what? For nothing. All they achieved was to dishonor Karin Midular's memory, shame themselves and cause more needless destruction and suffering in a universe that is already filled to the brim of the same. |
Marie D'Artois
D'Artois Legal Services
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
TomHorn wrote:Quote:=Julianus Soter]Mentas Blaque and Thoun Gatarau.... How many souls have you slaughtered today? Now and in the future? You cant keep blaming Black Eagles and FIO Soter. They work for the Goverment. The current Gallente Federation President is Jacus Roden. The buck stops with him .
Indeed, interstellar diplomacy is not in FIO's mandate. This failure is Roden's, not Blaque's. |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
171
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tala Kordes wrote:I suppose both sides in this horrible conflict had governments and people to stand up for. I just hope this wont escalate further and destroy the friendship of these two glorious nations!
Oh yes, I'm sure they'll just forget all about it and have awkward moments of silence when a third party mentions it at a cocktail table. Because that's what happens when someone goes and destroys a sizeable amount of your capital vessels, not to mention all the lives of the citizens of your glorious nations aboard. - Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim ___________________________ Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation recruitment open. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 22:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:Not for the first time in recent months have the Gallente shown an insitutional failure to understand the force of a Minmatar cultural imperative at work here. The death of a Ray of Matar is a sacred matter to us, for want of a better word they might grasp. The importance of this matter cannot be overstated.
Oh, I couldn't agree with you more, Ugleb. The importance of this matter can not be overstated. But at least, as you point out, the families of all those crewmembers killed have had an opportunity to develop a better understanding of the force of a Minmatar cultural imperative at work. Nice work! Bio and writing |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
I cannot fully express the level of sadness I feel at this grievous betrayal of my ancestral homeland by the Republic I've been fighting for these past months and the nation I grew up in. All I can say is that I must question my loyalties were the conflict to heighten further. |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 23:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
Deleted. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
I'm terribly accustomed to being right, of course, but it is still fun. Time is a weapon. We Amarr understand these things. Going back in time a wee bit:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Captain Noh, are you really that simple, or do you just pretend?
The longer this is kept out of tribal hands, the longer we risk a conflict that we cannot afford.
That is not a threat. I voice my disagreement with the Federal decisions, but if it is my call, I will not start a war over them.
Am I still pretending, you poor, simple-minded little fool? Turns out I know you better than you know yourself, now, doesn't it, sweet pea. Catching up to the present:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I gave the order to the EM fleet to engage
I so love moments like this.
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ColonelNick
Providence Guard Templis Dragonaors
12
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
So the Fed and Matar are done cupping each others balls? Looks like the romance is getting rough.
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Caroline Grace
Almost Approved
294
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
I love Minmatars.
But if they think they will hotdrop at our territory, ninja-avoid cyno jammers and fly a whole dread army into our space like mad goats, they are dead wrong.
What happened today is an escalation of frustated Minmatars, which I completely understand. There should be some investigation, there should be some heavy apologies from Gallente side for lack of sharing intel.
But invading our space because of this, threatening our peace-keeping forces (we didn't start the shooting, remember?) and being rude is not what a friend does to his friend.
I hope this is not a war. I hope this can be solved through diplomacy now. The shooting was a disaster. The dead of your Ray of Matar was a disaster. We acted as arrogant goats. We are arrogant goats! We surely deserved some "cold" standing reset. But not inviding forces. Not like this. Not with violence. Let's keep it real. |
Derek Quaid
Discreet Bounties
156
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 00:33:00 -
[30] - Quote
Savages can't get enough fights with their enemies, so they go pick a fight with their allies. Predictable. CEO, Discreet Bounties In-game Channel: Discreet Bounties |
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Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
891
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
The Ray of Matar has not even been put into her grave yet and she is already rolling over in it. The utter disgust and sadness her spirit must be feeling at the moment is too much for one to even fathom.
(For the sake of clarification, in the following, I am referring to the Republic as a government entity and am making no reference to the Minmatar people or tribes.)
This blatant and unjustifiable action by the Republic shows what little regard the government has for the laws, practices, and sovereignty of their allies. Decades of political, economic, and military support and this is how we are re-payed for it? Generations of giving to the Republic expecting nothing but friendship in return and these despicable acts are how they say thank you?
The Republic is a nation of hypocrites to the highest degree! Constantly accusing others of not respecting their culture, laws, and sovereignty while not hesitating for even a moment to completely butcher the culture, laws, and sovereignty of others.
I say, all bets are off. It's time to cut ties with the Republic unless reparations and reforms regarding an alliance are properly made.
Ugh, first Tibus Heth's plan to nationalize Caldari Corps, now this. How the heck am I going to keep the serious-yet-lighthearted tone of Fred Fred Frederation this week when everything is making my blood boil? Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
I cant say i knew the Ray of Matar, or that the Federation in this matter couldent have acted better, but having read up abit of her acts in life and what she were standing for, to me this action carried out by Matar pilots, is anything but honoring the Ray of Matar, if She were alive, and a equal situation had happened, do you think that this was how she would have handled it ?, or would have like it to be handled ?
I probably think she might have said something like a "eye for an eye, doesent equal justice, it will just make the universe blind !" |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
366
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 01:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:Mentas Blaque and Thoun Gatarau.... How many souls have you slaughtered today? Now and in the future? So you would justify the Tribals actions? For Gods sake!
I am a Cartel member a known criminal, suspected assassin and admitted murderer, and still a better friend to the Federation than you.
What twisted logic can you be following.
The Federation denies extradition to the former Republic of a criminal who committed crimes in the Federation, and for that offence you blame the very men who would defend us from the barbarians at the pounding at the gate. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
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Valdezi
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
127
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 02:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Great ******* job the lot of you.
Indeed. ******* idiots to a man. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
124
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 02:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote: I am a Cartel member a known criminal, suspected assassin and admitted murderer, and still a better friend to the Federation than you.
"better friend".
It amazes me that this fact does not tell you about the priorities of the Federal Intelligence Office are misguided. . .
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
9
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Posted - 2013.05.08 05:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
In light of this second surprise attack on the part of Shakor's government, I would strongly suggest that the Republic's best course of action is to remove the tyrant Shakor from power, try him as a war criminal, and sue for peace.
As long as Shakor lives in power, there can be no peace. With him gone, there might be hope. Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good.Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land.The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood.-á |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1329
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 06:34:00 -
[37] - Quote
First the Minmatars attacked Yulai and the Federation did nothing, because Yulai is not a Federation system.
Then the Minmatars attacked Domain, and the Federation did nothing because Domain is not a Federation region.
Now the Minmatars have attacked Colelie, and there is no excuse for the Federation to not act.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1329
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 06:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:The death of a Ray of Matar is a sacred matter to us, for want of a better word they might grasp.
Weren't you a member of Ushra'Khan when they put a bounty on Midular's head?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 06:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
What surprises me is that during this highly political conflict, there where no diplomats on the scene. Several times either side choose their words very poorly, escalating the conflict where a decent diplomat would not have. |
Amseln deBrabant
Ochsenbruegger
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 06:53:00 -
[40] - Quote
I personally fired my Weapons at the Minmatar Naglfars, they invaded the teritory of my loved Federation and shoot at our Navy. THAT has to be answered, and the answer was given.
Nethertheless i understand what was the cause for the action of this Minmatar fleet and we must say that our authorities had enough time to bring forward information and punishment about the shooting. So in "making a point" i fully agree with the Minmatar standpoint, but not in what was actually done. To "make a point" there would have been many much better options.
So how to go on? I leave this for the government of the Federation in which i have full trust. I will support any actions, even a war against Minmatar. But surely i hope for a peaceful solution of this mess.
But i also see the honor as well in the personal actions of the Minmatar people who died in Colelie. They only did what they thought was needed for their nation. As i respect this, i offer to pay for the rents of any relatives of ordinary crewmemebers of the Naglfars i shoot upon. |
|
Amseln deBrabant
Ochsenbruegger
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 06:55:00 -
[41] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:First the Minmatars attacked Yulai and the Federation did nothing, because Yulai is not a Federation system.
Then the Minmatars attacked Domain, and the Federation did nothing because Domain is not a Federation region.
Now the Minmatars have attacked Colelie, and there is no excuse for the Federation to not act.
Shut up slaver!
Its soo obvious you Amar will try to make the best out of this situation. This is a internal affair between the Minmatar and the Federation.
You, slaver, just shut up. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 07:12:00 -
[42] - Quote
And you wouldn't do exactly the same if our positions were reversed? My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Laerise
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 07:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'd like to extend my condolences to the families of the crewmen slaughtered by the minmatar fleet.
Many of you will remember that the loyalist capsuleers have warned you about the blood thirsty nature of the minmatar.
The Amarr empire offered these subhumans refuge and enlightenment for decades in the hope to uplift them from their tribal savagery. This kindness was repayed with bloodshed and violence.
Now, many years later these barbarians are repaying your kindness in the same manner. We have warned you about this, again and again.
However, it is not yet too late to take descisive action. Allow the Amarr Empire to bring an end to this tribal menace.
Let there be peace in this wartorn galaxy once more. |
Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 07:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
I was there with the Fcord fleet, intending to jam down both sides in case of fighting. However, due to the fact that Dreadnoughts were involved, this strategy proved fruitless.
Before the engagement there were desperate pleas from all sides to the Republic Taskforce to stand down and not commit this folly. These pleas fell on deaf ears.
In the end, the Republic Taskforce opened fire and was defeated by the combined forces of the Federation and its supporting Capsuleers.
Some questions remain;
- Who ordered this incursion? Is it from the Top of the Republic Leadership or was it ordered from a lower echelon without the Republic Leadership's knowledge? The answer to this question will be very important for future Federation-Republic relations.
- What was exactly the plan? Barging in with Dreadnoughts seems highly provocative. It would be very easy to detect and the response would be very clear to all involved. Republic planners must have given green light to the fleet commander in order to use force or the Republic fleet would not have committed this folly.
Was it an attempt to brow-beat the Federation? From a tactical and strategic point of view, the operation made no sense.
Tactical; it would have been much more wise to use stealth and guile in order to "retrieve" the shooter. Not use an easy detectable and unsupported fleet of Dreadnoughts.
Unless this attack was a diversion while the stealth and guile was used to retrieve the shooter, but no information regarding this is known at this time.
Strategic; This would heavily hurt relations between the Federation and the Republic. Even if there was no fighting, even if the shooter would be retrieved, this would have dire consequences for Republic-Federation relations.
|
Laria Raven
Utopian Research I.E.L.
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 09:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Well, I was fantastic and it was a very pretty show. Better than fireworks, any day. -- Fallen from grace. And as night comes, may flights of Angels visit your sleep... shoot your ships and steal all of your stuff. |
Karmilla Strife
Utopian Research I.E.L.
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 09:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
I'm not used to being jealous of Laria. I always seem to miss the best shows. |
Dahacai Laguz
Aliastra Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 10:14:00 -
[47] - Quote
Friendships and alliances come and go and nothing lasts forever. This simply had to happen and I for one am glad that the outcome wasn't significantly affected by outside capsuleer action. My motive for being there was to try and stop this kind of interference. Taking a side with your chosen faction is fine but thinking that you can simply disable two massive fighting forces from clashing is both ridiculous and arrogant. |
Denak Calamari
Ozark Cartel White Mountain Coalition
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 10:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
While I'm not Matari, I fail to see the point of this engagement from either side. I am not going to condemn how the Minmatar people see their justice, but I am fairly sure that the Ray of Matar would not condemn to this kind of pointless bikcering over a single person, regardless of what he did and where.
I just hope the Federation and the Republic can come to a conclusion and not have their dispute escalate to a war, especially after the whole Caldari Prime incident. Immortality is overrated. |
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
895
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 11:59:00 -
[49] - Quote
Denak Calamari wrote:While I'm not Matari, I fail to see the point of this engagement from either side.
Well when your own friend opens fire on you with dreadnoughts it's pretty hard not to want to fight back. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Denak Calamari
Ozark Cartel White Mountain Coalition
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 12:02:00 -
[50] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Denak Calamari wrote:While I'm not Matari, I fail to see the point of this engagement from either side. Well when your own friend opens fire on you with dreadnoughts it's pretty hard not to want to fight back.
I was more curious on the fact that the Matari were willing to open fire on their own allies to gain a single man from them. Immortality is overrated. |
|
Fredfredbug4
Eve Defence Force Tribal Band
896
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 12:13:00 -
[51] - Quote
Denak Calamari wrote:
I was more curious on the fact that the Matari were willing to open fire on their own allies to gain a single man from them.
Ah, I see what you meant. I too wonder why they did this, nothing could justify it of course.
Yulai was just the beginning, and Colelie was just the end of Act One. The Republic (particularly the Shakor administration) is on a quest to achieve domination through creating chaos and usurping peace and stability. Watch Fred Fred Frederation and stop cryptozoologist! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it! |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1337
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
Denak Calamari wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:Denak Calamari wrote:While I'm not Matari, I fail to see the point of this engagement from either side. Well when your own friend opens fire on you with dreadnoughts it's pretty hard not to want to fight back. I was more curious on the fact that the Matari were willing to open fire on their own allies to gain a single man from them.
It's almost as though that single man knows something that the Shakorites don't want revealed - at any cost.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1117
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
It indicates that the "Republic Fleet was acting under direct orders from the Tribal Council" and they are responsible for this unnecessary loss of lives. The one that we recently greeted with with joy. |
Tootenh'amon
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 13:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
As an imigrant in Federation space I have to say that this is a terrible turn of events, but truth be said, the issue of the assassin's identity and custody should have been resolved long ago. Federation really isn't living up to it's reputation as an ally. |
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Nulli Legio
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 16:56:00 -
[55] - Quote
With the amount of assistance the Federation has given the Republic since their independence (and I suspect even before that) I can't believe they would be stupid enough to do this again. I'm deeply sorry that Midular is dead but nothing justifies launching an attack on what until recently was your closest ally.
As for the outbreak of violence, I don't condone it one bit but I can understand why over the last few years we have had a Caldari invasion of Luminaire, Uriam Kador invading Solitude, Sansha and his mad hordes and that doesn't cover the ongoing militia war. If you keep poking even the most restrained bear it will snap at some point.
If this does turn out to have been an order from the highest levels of Republic government I hope the Federation starts demanding the extradition of those responsible, it was the Republic that took down the jammer, it was the Republic that crossed the boarder and it was the Republic that fired first. The death of one person does not give anyone the right to kill 36,000+ people, no matter how sacred their position is. |
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
345
|
Posted - 2013.05.08 20:57:00 -
[56] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:Ugleb wrote:The death of a Ray of Matar is a sacred matter to us, for want of a better word they might grasp. Weren't you a member of Ushra'Khan when they put a bounty on Midular's head?
Yes, and I do not regret it at all. I do not consider Midular to have lived up to her potential and at times she has fallen far short of it.
The 1 ISK 'bounty' I have always considered symbolic, we never attempted to end Midular's life nor did we, or anyone with any sense, ever expect that bounty to actually provide a motive for someone to go out and claim it. If I were seriously attempting to hasten a death with ISK, then I would go about it differently.
I do not grieve for Midular, as I never came to see eye to eye with her. But I draw a distinction between the politician and the spiritual symbol of our ways. As a Ray I her passing moves me in a way her office does not. It was ever my hope that as she lived she might yet offer a greater contribution than her political career ever did. That possibility was taken from us, and that I mourn. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/
The Jotunn Risi are now recruiting, Brutor ancestry required in order to best represent the Brutor interest.-á Join channel JORIS to learn more! |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
117
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 00:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
The next time you empire 'allies' are going to lose your **** and start destroying eachother' capital ships can I be given a bit more advanced notification? My Purifier had to make trips to offload rescued crew and other valuable things pulled from the wrecks. I cannot give out numbers to the community here as to souls saved, but I can attest to being first responder to four of the downed Naglfars.
I think I will order combat and rescue capable Noctis's for future high sec space engagements. This will make my rescue efforts far quicker and more effective. Each time you empires start firing at each other allows me to perfect my methods. Thank you. |
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:The next time you empire 'allies' are going to lose your **** and start destroying eachother' capital ships can I be given a bit more advanced notification? My Purifier had to make trips to offload rescued crew and other valuable things pulled from the wrecks. I cannot give out numbers to the community here as to souls saved, but I can attest to being first responder to four of the downed Naglfars.
I think I will order combat and rescue capable Noctis's for future high sec space engagements. This will make my rescue efforts far quicker and more effective. Each time you empires start firing at each other allows me to perfect my methods. Thank you.
Thanks for reminding me to make a note to shoot you down before you have a chance next time.
|
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
119
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 04:03:00 -
[59] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:The next time you empire 'allies' are going to lose your **** and start destroying eachother' capital ships can I be given a bit more advanced notification? My Purifier had to make trips to offload rescued crew and other valuable things pulled from the wrecks. I cannot give out numbers to the community here as to souls saved, but I can attest to being first responder to four of the downed Naglfars.
I think I will order combat and rescue capable Noctis's for future high sec space engagements. This will make my rescue efforts far quicker and more effective. Each time you empires start firing at each other allows me to perfect my methods. Thank you. Thanks for reminding me to make a note to shoot you down before you have a chance next time.
The greatest irony of our time. Fire at me in Colelie and your precious CONCORD will vaporize you. |
Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
101
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 07:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:The next time you empire 'allies' are going to lose your **** and start destroying eachother' capital ships can I be given a bit more advanced notification? My Purifier had to make trips to offload rescued crew and other valuable things pulled from the wrecks. I cannot give out numbers to the community here as to souls saved, but I can attest to being first responder to four of the downed Naglfars.
I think I will order combat and rescue capable Noctis's for future high sec space engagements. This will make my rescue efforts far quicker and more effective. Each time you empires start firing at each other allows me to perfect my methods. Thank you. I think Master Sansha needs to tweak your neural implants a bit. You seem to be displaying a larger-than-normal level of poor manners in comparison to your ilk. After all, with such a demeanor I doubt people would find Nation appealing! |
|
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
233
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 10:12:00 -
[61] - Quote
I know the Naglfar design was slightly improved recently, but firing first on a numerically equal force of Moros at their optimal range is just madness.
As is, in fact, the whole situation. Nationalism is such a flawed notion; we are human.
Personally I would see the shooter sent to Yulai. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
121
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 12:09:00 -
[62] - Quote
Korsavius wrote: I think Master Sansha needs to tweak your neural implants a bit. You seem to be displaying a larger-than-normal level of poor manners in comparison to your ilk. After all, with such a demeanor I doubt people would find Nation appealing!
What 'appeals' to the average Capsuleer is stomach churning and nightmare inducing. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 13:02:00 -
[63] - Quote
We have enough enemies in the universe to start shooting each other.
C7 |
Katarina Musana
Phyrean Logistics Inc.
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 15:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:The greatest irony of our time. Fire at me in Colelie and your precious CONCORD will vaporize you.
It would be worth a ship loss to stop you from enslaving more people. |
Aynen
Federal Guard and Recon Corporation
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 16:11:00 -
[65] - Quote
I haven't seen this mentioned yet but I also find out very odd that there was radio silence on the Minmattar fleet for the latter half of the battle, as the Naglfar fought to the death. Does anyone else find this odd? |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
440
|
Posted - 2013.05.09 19:42:00 -
[66] - Quote
Does anyone have logs of the communications between the Republic and Federation fleets? I am very interested in seeing them as I've heard rumours that the Gallente were not very diplomatic. Nightmares - A short story by Ch+¬ Biko |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2789
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 08:42:00 -
[67] - Quote
Some images from the camera drones from that horrible day, if anybody is interested.
One, Two, Three, Four |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1367
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 10:06:00 -
[68] - Quote
Che Biko wrote:Does anyone have logs of the communications between the Republic and Federation fleets? I am very interested in seeing them as I've heard rumours that the Gallente were not very diplomatic.
Edit: I have received the logs.
A fleet of large warships invades your territory and starts making demands.
Would you be diplomatic?
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
463
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 10:24:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have spent half of my career in space being diplomatic to people who opened fire on me or allies. Often, I have managed to convince them to cease hostilities altogether or leave Republic territory.
Your point is?
Elsebeth |
Rodj Blake
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
1367
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 15:36:00 -
[70] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I have spent half of my career in space being diplomatic to people who opened fire on me or allies. Often, I have managed to convince them to cease hostilities altogether or leave Republic territory.
And you destroyed your reputation for diplomacy when you took part in an illegal and immoral assault on Gallentean territory without first exploring other options.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
|
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:08:00 -
[71] - Quote
The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
If it was real invasion, they would not jump 15 dred into Colleile, they would be alot more tactical, hit and run, cut supply lines etc.
This battle was ceremonial, for honor and to make a statement.
The Naglfar crews knew they were in inferior tactical position. They did not expect to win.
They martyr themselves, as Ray of Matar fedayeen.
And the Gallente go "duh why did they invade us."
This was not a hostile act, from certain point of view within the tribes. The "moderm" factions in the Republic will be horrified, but the traditionalists will say "It's just a ceremony, it needed to be done for honor."
It's just part of the old ways, that many won't understand. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:09:00 -
[72] - Quote
Aynen wrote:I haven't seen this mentioned yet but I also find out very odd that there was radio silence on the Minmattar fleet for the latter half of the battle, as the Naglfar fought to the death. Does anyone else find this odd?
Nope
Read my explanation just above this one. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:42:00 -
[73] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
Of course. It was just a Courier mission for Pator Tech School gone horribly awry. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 17:57:00 -
[74] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
Of course. It was just a Courier mission for Pator Tech School gone horribly awry.
I wouldn't say it went awry.
They accomplished their purpose. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
956
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 19:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
Of course. It was just a Courier mission for Pator Tech School gone horribly awry. I wouldn't say it went awry. They accomplished their purpose.
They didn't get the shooter.
How did they accomplish their purpose? Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
401
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 19:05:00 -
[76] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
Of course. It was just a Courier mission for Pator Tech School gone horribly awry. I wouldn't say it went awry. They accomplished their purpose. The real horror is that he may be correct in his assessment.
We hear allot of, GÇ£you donGÇÖt understand our cultureGÇ¥, GÇ£you donGÇÖt respect our waysGÇ¥. Perhaps those in the former Republic should listen to their own advice.
Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.
Minmatar culture, especially the variant that expresses itself in the former Republic, has become nothing more than a cliche, that has devolved into a self entitled cult of perpetual victim-hood. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
463
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 20:27:00 -
[77] - Quote
Rodj Blake wrote:And you destroyed your reputation for diplomacy when you took part in an illegal and immoral assault on Gallentean territory without first exploring other options. To do or not do diplomacy on that one was not my call.
However, I admit to a failure in convincing people with words in that my attempts to talk sense into the commanders on both sides were completely in vain.
It does not unfortunately work every time. Not even with the independents I usually work with. I'd say the success rate is closer to 1 or 2 in 10.
Elsebeth |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:39:00 -
[78] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Cipher7 wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
Of course. It was just a Courier mission for Pator Tech School gone horribly awry. I wouldn't say it went awry. They accomplished their purpose. They didn't get the shooter. How did they accomplish their purpose?
They came to make a statement, and they made it. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 21:51:00 -
[79] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Cipher7 wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
Of course. It was just a Courier mission for Pator Tech School gone horribly awry. I wouldn't say it went awry. They accomplished their purpose. The real horror is that he may be correct in his assessment. We hear allot of, GÇ£you donGÇÖt understand our cultureGÇ¥, GÇ£you donGÇÖt respect our waysGÇ¥. Perhaps those in the former Republic should listen to their own advice. Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary. Minmatar culture, especially the variant that expresses itself in the former Republic, has become nothing more than a cliche, that has devolved into a self entitled cult of perpetual victim-hood.
I don't know what this gobbledy-crap means.
We don't need benefits, we need justice.
As so often thru history "justice" has become "just us." |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
90
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 23:46:00 -
[80] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
If it was real invasion, they would not jump 15 dred into Colleile, they would be alot more tactical, hit and run, cut supply lines etc.
This battle was ceremonial, for honor and to make a statement.
The Naglfar crews knew they were in inferior tactical position. They did not expect to win.
They martyr themselves, as Ray of Matar fedayeen.
And the Gallente go "duh why did they invade us."
This was not a hostile act, from certain point of view within the tribes. The "moderm" factions in the Republic will be horrified, but the traditionalists will say "It's just a ceremony, it needed to be done for honor."
This is some of the most ludicrous drivel I've ever read. It's obvious that, while you sit there in your armchair complaining that the Federation (not the Gallente, but the Federation, let's be precise here) doesn't understand the Republic, that you show a failure to understand the Federation that is equally as great.
If this was not a hostile act, then what was it? If it was not an invasion in miniature, then what was it? A statement? That's the excuse that terrorists always trot out to justify their acts. Is that how the Federation should view this? Are you sure that's what you want? The Federation doesn't exactly have the best record of responding proportionally to acts of terrorism - I mean to violence for symbolic purposes.
How should the Federation respond to this? I'm curious to know what you think. Now that the Republic has "made a statement", how should the Federation respond? To the tens of thousands of Federation citizens killed in the attack? How should the families of those citizens respond? How should their friends respond?
If you're suggesting the Republic wanted to make a statement, I'd say that they were successful. However, I don't thin that statement meant what they thought it meant.
Cipher, I would like to meet you some day. I would like to sit you down, and buy you a drink, and tell you a story about a friend of mine who was killed at Colelie. Then I would like to slap your face and never speak to you again. I'm sure you understand, I merely want to make a statement. Bio and writing |
|
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 23:52:00 -
[81] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.
The problem isn't the generosity and benevolence. The problem is the condescending, patronizing attitude that tends to build up among those being generous and benevolent. We're not the Federation's children to be talked down to when they don't like our ways or methods. We don't owe them perfect obedience just because they've helped us out. We do not belong to the Federation. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 00:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote: The Gallente will erroneously see this as "invasion."
If it was real invasion, they would not jump 15 dred into Colleile, they would be alot more tactical, hit and run, cut supply lines etc.
This battle was ceremonial, for honor and to make a statement.
The Naglfar crews knew they were in inferior tactical position. They did not expect to win.
They martyr themselves, as Ray of Matar fedayeen.
And the Gallente go "duh why did they invade us."
This was not a hostile act, from certain point of view within the tribes. The "moderm" factions in the Republic will be horrified, but the traditionalists will say "It's just a ceremony, it needed to be done for honor."
It's just part of the old ways, that many won't understand.
I see myself as a traditionalist, but I don't agree with this being simply ceremony. There was nothing honorable about what I saw in Colelie. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
772
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 00:22:00 -
[83] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.
The problem isn't the generosity and benevolence. The problem is the condescending, patronizing attitude that tends to build up among those being generous and benevolent. We're not the Federation's children to be talked down to when they don't like our ways or methods. We don't owe them perfect obedience just because they've helped us out. We do not belong to the Federation.
^^Thisthisthisthisthis.^^ Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
956
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 02:35:00 -
[84] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:
They didn't get the shooter.
How did they accomplish their purpose?
They came to make a statement, and they made it.
That they don't give a damn about the way their allies conduct their business?
That they have no problems breaking CONCORD law, risking their alliance and murdering thousands of men and women and throwing sending twice as many to their deaths, because they won't get their way when others than themselves are in the right?
That they're incompetent and have no idea how to conduct capital warfare?
Which statement did they make?
Katarina Musana wrote:James Syagrius wrote:Proponents of Gallentean civilization must learn that generosity and benevolence often breeds resentment in the beneficiary.
The problem isn't the generosity and benevolence. The problem is the condescending, patronizing attitude that tends to build up among those being generous and benevolent.
Both sides are condescending and patronising to the other, neither side has the right to point fingers and make complaints there. Surely it'd be better if you both, instead of applying the sarcasm and downtalk to one another, promote a sense of understanding with some patience, hmm?
If you don't want to be treated like children, perhaps you should look to your own conduct when you don't get your way. You're right, you don't belong to them, but they're not obliged to agree to your every demand just because they're in the mentality to offer help and aid. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 02:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:This is some of the most ludicrous drivel I've ever read. It's obvious that, while you sit there in your armchair complaining that the Federation (not the Gallente, but the Federation, let's be precise here) doesn't understand the Republic, that you show a failure to understand the Federation that is equally as great.
If this was not a hostile act, then what was it? If it was not an invasion in miniature, then what was it? A statement? That's the excuse that terrorists always trot out to justify their acts. Is that how the Federation should view this? Are you sure that's what you want? The Federation doesn't exactly have the best record of responding proportionally to acts of terrorism - I mean to violence for symbolic purposes.
How should the Federation respond to this? I'm curious to know what you think. Now that the Republic has "made a statement", how should the Federation respond? To the tens of thousands of Federation citizens killed in the attack? How should the families of those citizens respond? How should their friends respond?
If you're suggesting the Republic wanted to make a statement, I'd say that they were successful. However, I don't thin that statement meant what they thought it meant.
Cipher, I would like to meet you some day. I would like to sit you down, and buy you a drink, and tell you a story about a friend of mine who was killed at Colelie. Then I would like to slap your face and never speak to you again. I'm sure you understand, I merely want to make a statement.
Our culture is rather fragmented, customs vary from tribe to tribe, clan to clan. I don't think any one person knows all of it.
I do know that mock battles are fairly common during disputes.
One village will send warriors to another village and call them out, then they will have a battle that feels pretty real, but nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the chiefs sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the chiefs come to an agreement on their dispute.
Now imagine there is a Gallente village, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.
In my opinion that is essentially what happened in Coleile.
How should the Federation respond.
If the Federation is smart, they'll see it within its cultural context for what it is, and understand that mistakes were made on both sides.
If they're dumb, they'll view it from their own ethnocentric angle, get pushy and end up losing an ally.
On the Republic side, I know there's alot of arguing in the top brass.
I just hope it doesn't endanger my R&D with Duvolle and Creodron, or my security gig with Transstellar Shipping.
I'll be happy to have that drink but if you slap me I'll knock you into next week.
k bye |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 03:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote: That they don't give a damn about the way their allies conduct their business?
That they have no problems breaking CONCORD law, risking their alliance and murdering thousands of men and women and throwing sending twice as many to their deaths, because they won't get their way when others than themselves are in the right?
That they're incompetent and have no idea how to conduct capital warfare?
Which statement did they make?
That some things are worth dying for.
That ally is not a synonym for lapdog.
That we handle our business.
You didn't see warfare yet. If you see warfare, your stations will be wreckage before your fleet can respond. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
48
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 03:08:00 -
[87] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote: I see myself as a traditionalist, but I don't agree with this being simply ceremony. There was nothing honorable about what I saw in Colelie.
I think it was honorable, but I think such gesture is wasted on the Federation. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 04:37:00 -
[88] - Quote
Interesting definition of honourable you have there sir. I would consider shooting at the only friends you have to be a rather idiotic move myself. I'm not saying stop, far from it. Keep going and the war will be over that much sooner. You won't win though.
I find it interesting that no one has tried to shut you up yet, they probably should. Your speeches are a propaganda gold mine for the imperial press office. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 06:13:00 -
[89] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:
Our culture is rather fragmented, customs vary from tribe to tribe, clan to clan. I don't think any one person knows all of it.
I do know that mock battles are fairly common during disputes.
One village will send warriors to another village and call them out, then they will have a battle that feels pretty real, but nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the chiefs sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the chiefs come to an agreement on their dispute.
Now imagine there is a Gallente village, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.
In my opinion that is essentially what happened in Coleile.
How should the Federation respond.
If the Federation is smart, they'll see it within its cultural context for what it is, and understand that mistakes were made on both sides.
If they're dumb, they'll view it from their own ethnocentric angle, get pushy and end up losing an ally.
On the Republic side, I know there's alot of arguing in the top brass.
I just hope it doesn't endanger my R&D with Duvolle and Creodron, or my security gor what it isig with Transstellar Shipping.
I'll be happy to have that drink but if you slap me I'll knock you into next week.
k bye
Let me get this straight, you expect the Federation to "see it within the cultural context for what it is" but can't see what the Gallente (and every other people in New Eden as well) would see it as? The Coleile incident was nothing less than mass murder committed by one ally upon another. If the alliance breaks or disintegrates into outright war it will be on the Republic's head and no one else. If you keep pushing the Federation, no one will come to your aid when the Golden Fleet returns.
I don't deny that the Federation has made mistakes here but the violation of Federal sovereignty and the murder of thousands of people makes the Federal mistakes pale by comparison.
This idea that the Federation see the Republic as some sort of pet is beyond ridiculous as well. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
516
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 10:03:00 -
[90] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:This is some of the most ludicrous drivel I've ever read. It's obvious that, while you sit there in your armchair complaining that the Federation (not the Gallente, but the Federation, let's be precise here) doesn't understand the Republic, that you show a failure to understand the Federation that is equally as great.
If this was not a hostile act, then what was it? If it was not an invasion in miniature, then what was it? A statement? That's the excuse that terrorists always trot out to justify their acts. Is that how the Federation should view this? Are you sure that's what you want? The Federation doesn't exactly have the best record of responding proportionally to acts of terrorism - I mean to violence for symbolic purposes.
How should the Federation respond to this? I'm curious to know what you think. Now that the Republic has "made a statement", how should the Federation respond? To the tens of thousands of Federation citizens killed in the attack? How should the families of those citizens respond? How should their friends respond?
If you're suggesting the Republic wanted to make a statement, I'd say that they were successful. However, I don't thin that statement meant what they thought it meant.
Cipher, I would like to meet you some day. I would like to sit you down, and buy you a drink, and tell you a story about a friend of mine who was killed at Colelie. Then I would like to slap your face and never speak to you again. I'm sure you understand, I merely want to make a statement. Our culture is rather fragmented, customs vary from tribe to tribe, clan to clan. I don't think any one person knows all of it. I do know that mock battles are fairly common during disputes. One village will send warriors to another village and call them out, then they will have a battle that feels pretty real, but nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the chiefs sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the chiefs come to an agreement on their dispute. Now imagine there is a Gallente village, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive. In my opinion that is essentially what happened in Coleile. How should the Federation respond. If the Federation is smart, they'll see it within its cultural context for what it is, and understand that mistakes were made on both sides. If they're dumb, they'll view it from their own ethnocentric angle, get pushy and end up losing an ally. On the Republic side, I know there's alot of arguing in the top brass. I just hope it doesn't endanger my R&D with Duvolle and Creodron, or my security gig with Transstellar Shipping. I'll be happy to have that drink but if you slap me I'll knock you into next week. k bye
That is an interesting point of view, actually. One I have not considered yet.
However, I do know that legal disputes are fairly common during disputes in the Federation.
One Federal State will send envoys and lawyers to another Federal State and call them out, then they will face trials and lawsuits, and nobody actually dies. It's a symbolic battle. Then the leaders sit down and talk. The battles happen every night until the leaders come to an agreement on their dispute.
Now imagine there is a Minmatar State, and tribal warriors show up bristling with armor and weapons. The police show up and tell them to stand down, the warriors refuse, then the cops open up with automatic fire and a /real/ battle ensues where every single one of the tribal warriors is gunned down and 6 cops are left alive.
It mostly depends of the light it is presented in. In yours, federal leaders are shown negatively, in mine, it is the contrary. |
|
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
463
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 11:48:00 -
[91] - Quote
While symbolic battles indeed do happen in parts of the Republic, I think we have to give our Fleet and leaders a little more credit than assuming they'd not realize such a party would not get the response it receives in the Federation. After all, we have been Federation allies for long, and if something is integral to the culture of the Republic (not Minmatar, but the alliance of multiple tribes that is the Republic), it is the ability to understand and negotiate in the web of differing customs.
The Fleet would not simply barge into Colelie following one symbolic battle custom from gods know what part of which planet, and expect to be treated in the appropriate response. They would contact the opposition first and ask whether such a custom would also be acceptable to them.
We are not barbarians. We can talk about such things. We can negotiate for a mutually acceptable solution when customs differ. Every clan chief worth the air they breath knows how to do that with neighboring clans. The Republic has managed to do so between tribes for over a century. We have even now offered to negotiate about jurisdiction with the Federation.
Elsebeth |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 12:11:00 -
[92] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:While symbolic battles indeed do happen in parts of the Republic, I think we have to give our Fleet and leaders a little more credit than assuming they'd not realize such a party would not get the response it receives in the Federation. After all, we have been Federation allies for long, and if something is integral to the culture of the Republic (not Minmatar, but the alliance of multiple tribes that is the Republic), it is the ability to understand and negotiate in the web of differing customs.
The Fleet would not simply barge into Colelie following one symbolic battle custom from gods know what part of which planet, and expect to be treated in the appropriate response. They would contact the opposition first and ask whether such a custom would also be acceptable to them.
We are not barbarians. We can talk about such things. We can negotiate for a mutually acceptable solution when customs differ. Every clan chief worth the air they breath knows how to do that with neighboring clans. The Republic has managed to do so between tribes for over a century. We have even now offered to negotiate about jurisdiction with the Federation.
Elsebeth
But that is EXACTLY what the republic failed to do. You (the Republic) didn't negotiate with the Feds, you just said "Gimme" and when you were met with "no", you promptly displayed behaviour that the parents of all children know all too well. That is, the temper tantrum. Except you didn't bellow "I'm going to scream until I'm sick!" Or stamp your feet or slam doors or wail and scream. You dispatched a dreadnought fleet against the sovereign space of your oldest ally.
The republic failed to negotiate or arrange a compromise, otherwise those Dreadnoughts would have been dispatched quite some time later. But what do I know about these things. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:02:00 -
[93] - Quote
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:Interesting definition of honourable you have there sir. I would consider shooting at the only friends you have to be a rather idiotic move myself. I'm not saying stop, far from it. Keep going and the war will be over that much sooner. You won't win though.
I find it interesting that no one has tried to shut you up yet, they probably should. Your speeches are a propaganda gold mine for the imperial press office.
Allies deserve straight talk.
We are not imperials who talk thru both sides of our mouth "buhu sorry about the attack" while planning the next one.
Either we'll honorably bang out a concensus with the Gallente or honorably disassociate ourselves from them.
No spin, no doubletalk.
Haha imperial press. Your own people don't even read that schit. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:39:00 -
[94] - Quote
You're the ones who shot up your allies, not us. We may have disagreements with our State brothers now and again but we haven't shot them yet. We're also not the ones who broke the Yulai agreements before diving behind the skirts of Concord when it went badly for you. I don't think you could get any more dishonourable if you tried.
And by all means, honourably disassociate yourself from the Gallente, I'm not stopping you. Just keep in mind that they may not be so kindly inclined to assist you when our golden fleet comes knocking. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
191
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:40:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:[ Either we'll honorably bang out a concensus with the Gallente...
Would that be a 6x2500mm bang or a 4x3500mm one?
Just wondering, as a couple posts ago you mentioned throwing a task force into gallente space and firing at them as 'honourable'. I believe 'concensus' here is the odd one out. - Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim ___________________________ Angels are never far... Stillwater Corporation recruitment open. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:52:00 -
[96] - Quote
Rioghal Morgan wrote: Let me get this straight, you expect the Federation to "see it within the cultural context for what it is" but can't see what the Gallente (and every other people in New Eden as well) would see it as? The Coleile incident was nothing less than mass murder committed by one ally upon another. If the alliance breaks or disintegrates into outright war it will be on the Republic's head and no one else. If you keep pushing the Federation, no one will come to your aid when the Golden Fleet returns.
I don't deny that the Federation has made mistakes here but the violation of Federal sovereignty and the murder of thousands of people makes the Federal mistakes pale by comparison.
This idea that the Federation see the Republic as some sort of pet is beyond ridiculous as well.
Three weeks.
Over 3 weeks since the shooting and we STILL have no access to the shooter, no access to raw intel, no access to anything.
What the hell kind of alliance is this?
Are we junkyard hounds only to use during hostilities, but show no consideration otherwise?
Your president needs to start acting like a friend, and he better start real soon. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:59:00 -
[97] - Quote
Considering you actively engaged federal units in hostilities... He doesn't really have any reason to treat you like a friend at this point. You shot at his ships and you're surprised he offers you no intel
Also Sebiestor tribesmen are present at the trial as observers so you do have acess to the shooter... You just can't hand him over to a lynch mob is all. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:02:00 -
[98] - Quote
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:You're the ones who shot up your allies, not us. We may have disagreements with our State brothers now and again but we haven't shot them yet. We're also not the ones who broke the Yulai agreements before diving behind the skirts of Concord when it went badly for you. I don't think you could get any more dishonourable if you tried.
And by all means, honourably disassociate yourself from the Gallente, I'm not stopping you. Just keep in mind that they may not be so kindly inclined to assist you when our golden fleet comes knocking.
lol @ "state brothers"
Sure, bring the golden fleet, could always use more spare parts. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:22:00 -
[99] - Quote
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:Considering you actively engaged federal units in hostilities... He doesn't really have any reason to treat you like a friend at this point. You shot at his ships and you're surprised he offers you no intel
Also Sebiestor tribesmen are present at the trial as observers so you do have acess to the shooter... You just can't hand him over to a lynch mob is all.
It was 3 weeks /before/ the Coleile incident.
3 weeks of no consideration, no cooperation, no communication.
There is no "lynch mob" we have our own interrogators and investigators, who could do a better job of extracting information out of the shooter.
Now he gets to sit in a cushy federal prison and exercise his "rights" to not tell anybody anything.
Bravo. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:37:00 -
[100] - Quote
Leopold Caine wrote:Cipher7 wrote:[ Either we'll honorably bang out a concensus with the Gallente... Would that be a 6x2500mm bang or a 4x3500mm one? Just wondering, as a couple posts ago you mentioned throwing a task force into gallente space and firing at them as 'honourable'. I believe 'concensus' here is the odd one out.
Facing certain death and holding your ground?
I think that's pretty honorable. |
|
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
958
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:49:00 -
[101] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:
That ally is not a synonym for lapdog.
That we handle our business.
Indeed it isn't, you don't get to make demands and expect the Federation to go "ok" every time.
They handle their business too, their borders, their jurisdiction, their rules.
I believe there is a phrase, deal with it. There's no justification for you breaking CONCORD law in this respect.
None. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
91
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:51:00 -
[102] - Quote
You sure talk a lot, Cypher.
Have you noticed, when you read the news, that Shakor never said anything about the Federation not sharing information about the investigation or the shooter? No, I never noticed that, either. Shakor issued a demand for Midular to be moved to a Republic hospital (which was met) and a demand that the shooter to be extradited (which was not), but he never complained that the Federation wasn't sharing information. I think your complaint here is that the Federation wasn't sharing information with you, and that's an entirely different issue.
Earlier you mentioned that, if the Federation was smart, it would understand the battle in the context which you assume it took place in, otherwise they would lose an ally. Speaking personally, I think the Republic under the Shakor administration has shown exactly what kind of ally it is, and the Federation would be far better off without them.
Here's a bit of context for you: I've despised slavery for my entire life. I've supported the Minmatar Republic. Hell, I've flown with Electus Matari in the past. In the course of one hour-long battle and the very loud justifications for it that followed, my long-term support has been completely lost. I have gone from a supporter of the Republic and a proponent of Federation/Republic relations to what I am now: convinced that the Federation would be far better off without the Republic. I understand your pleas to have the battle considered in terms of its cultural context, but you have to understand all of the context. I am not the only Federation citizen by far to feel this way. That is how bad Colelie was. Bio and writing |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:50:00 -
[103] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:You sure talk a lot, Cypher.
Have you noticed, when you read the news, that Shakor never said anything about the Federation not sharing information about the investigation or the shooter? No, I never noticed that, either. Shakor issued a demand for Midular to be moved to a Republic hospital (which was met) and a demand that the shooter to be extradited (which was not), but he never complained that the Federation wasn't sharing information. I think your complaint here is that the Federation wasn't sharing information with you, and that's an entirely different issue.
Earlier you mentioned that, if the Federation was smart, it would understand the battle in the context which you assume it took place in, otherwise they would lose an ally. Speaking personally, I think the Republic under the Shakor administration has shown exactly what kind of ally it is, and the Federation would be far better off without them.
Here's a bit of context for you: I've despised slavery for my entire life. I've supported the Minmatar Republic. Hell, I've flown with Electus Matari in the past. In the course of one hour-long battle and the very loud justifications for it that followed, my long-term support has been completely lost. I have gone from a supporter of the Republic and a proponent of Federation/Republic relations to what I am now: convinced that the Federation would be far better off without the Republic. I understand your pleas to have the battle considered in terms of its cultural context, but you have to understand all of the context. I am not the only Federation citizen by far to feel this way. That is how bad Colelie was.
There's no need for the Federation to share intel with me, if the fleet got its orders "from the top" then obviously Shakor wasn't happy with the level of cooperation he was getting, and that has consequences.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist?
As a sentient being you have every right to your own convictions and loyalties. But you've lost the right to moral outrage over the circumstances of "your people."
I totally understand and sympathize with the Gallente point of view.
Just saying it's their own govt's fault that it even escalated to this stage. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
134
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:58:00 -
[104] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote: Just saying it's their own govt's fault that it even escalated to this stage.
Maybe Kybernetes is right about you lot. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
958
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:07:00 -
[105] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Just saying it's their own govt's fault that it even escalated to this stage.
Perhaps when you stop trying to always be the victim and claim it's never your fault, you'll be worth further dialogue. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:59:00 -
[106] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:
Three weeks.
Over 3 weeks since the shooting and we STILL have no access to the shooter, no access to raw intel, no access to anything.
What the hell kind of alliance is this?
Are we junkyard hounds only to use during hostilities, but show no consideration otherwise?
Your president needs to start acting like a friend, and he better start real soon.
Three weeks of foolish mishandling by the Federal government justifies the Republic sending in a capital fleet and murdering tens of thousands of their oldest allies' citizens? Are you insane? In what world does a just and honorable ally do this? There's no excuse for such an atrocity and it makes this whole situation even more tragic than it was before the incident in Coleile.
Start acting like a friend? You mean the kind of friend which actually acts like a friend or the kind the Republic is acting like?
Mind you, this is coming from a Gallentean fighting for the Minmatar in the militia wars. Just imagine how much more enraged the Gallente not so deeply invested in this alliance are. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
91
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 17:54:00 -
[107] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist?
I wouldn't expect you to understand the subtleties involved. Suffice it to say that flying for Pyre gives me a satisfying opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia. Bio and writing |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 17:58:00 -
[108] - Quote
Rioghal Morgan wrote:Cipher7 wrote:
Three weeks.
Over 3 weeks since the shooting and we STILL have no access to the shooter, no access to raw intel, no access to anything.
What the hell kind of alliance is this?
Are we junkyard hounds only to use during hostilities, but show no consideration otherwise?
Your president needs to start acting like a friend, and he better start real soon.
Three weeks of foolish mishandling by the Federal government justifies the Republic sending in a capital fleet and murdering tens of thousands of their oldest allies' citizens? Are you insane? In what world does a just and honorable ally do this? There's no excuse for such an atrocity and it makes this whole situation even more tragic than it was before the incident in Coleile. Start acting like a friend? You mean the kind of friend which actually acts like a friend or the kind the Republic is acting like? Mind you, this is coming from a Gallentean fighting for the Minmatar in the militia wars. Just imagine how much more enraged the Gallente not so deeply invested in this alliance are.
See bold.
No it wouldn't justify that.
But let me ask you this, does a Republic fleet in Federation space justify a Federation "get off my lawn" armed response?
If they showed up and started shooting Fed citizens, I would say that's wrong.
But they sat there, vociferously as they please, demanding access to the suspect.
I'd be interested to know who fired the first salvo.
What I'm seeing in this thread is a tendency towards legalities and technicalities like the Yulai accords, but zero human empathy, zero understanding.
It's like showing up at a friend's house, and they shoot you, and you say it's ok because you're on their property.
Where's the love?
I'm heavily invested in the Federation, haven't been involved in Minmatar politics for a long time. Look at my profile photo, I paid 800 mil for that shirt, you know why? Because I'm a Quafe-a-holic.
It irks the hell out of me, that even after many years of cross-cultural pursuits, mixed fleets, naval execises, a united front - the presence of a minnie fleet still causes Fed citizens to run for the safe-room and hit 911.
These two fleets shouldn't even lock each other, much less shoot.
Why it it that null sov entities set each other blue, but those two fleets weren't blue. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:09:00 -
[109] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:Cipher7 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist? I wouldn't expect you to understand the subtleties involved. Suffice it to say that flying for Pyre gives me a satisfying opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia.
You stated that you were a Republic-Federation supporter until the Coleile incident, which is about 3 weeks after you joined Pyre.
You stated that you were outraged at the deaths of "your people" (whom you now also get to shoot.)
Good luck with the subtleties. |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:20:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:
See bold.
No it wouldn't justify that.
But let me ask you this, does a Republic fleet in Federation space justify a Federation "get off my lawn" armed response?
If they showed up and started shooting Fed citizens, I would say that's wrong.
But they sat there, vociferously as they please, demanding access to the suspect.
I'd be interested to know who fired the first salvo.
What I'm seeing in this thread is a tendency towards legalities and technicalities like the Yulai accords, but zero human empathy, zero understanding.
It's like showing up at a friend's house, and they shoot you, and you say it's ok because you're on their property.
Where's the love?
I'm heavily invested in the Federation, haven't been involved in Minmatar politics for a long time. Look at my profile photo, I paid 800 mil for that shirt, you know why? Because I'm a Quafe-a-holic.
It irks the hell out of me, that even after many years of cross-cultural pursuits, mixed fleets, naval execises, a united front - the presence of a minnie fleet still causes Fed citizens to run for the safe-room and hit 911.
These two fleets shouldn't even lock each other, much less shoot.
Why it it that null sov entities set each other blue, but those two fleets weren't blue.
The Republic fleet fired first on the Federals after yet another attempt to violate our sovereignty and forcefully extradite the shooter. So yes, the Republic is in the wrong there. They entered into allied space and started murdering people when they were denied their request. That's barbaric. Despite the Federals offering several times to allow the Republicans to fall back and cease hostilities, the Minmatar just kept right on murdering allied citizens until the last one of them was put down.
Regarding the "get off my lawn" comment, yes, that's kind of how countries work. When you step over the boundaries of a sovereign state with a large force, they are entitled to respond in kind.
I do agree that it's ridiculous that this situation ever came to this however. It shows an astonishingly large amount of incompetence on the part of both governments. |
|
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:53:00 -
[111] - Quote
Rioghal Morgan wrote:The Republic fleet fired first on the Federals after yet another attempt to violate our sovereignty and forcefully extradite the shooter. So yes, the Republic is in the wrong there. They entered into allied space and started murdering people when they were denied their request. That's barbaric. Despite the Federals offering several times to allow the Republicans to fall back and cease hostilities, the Minmatar just kept right on murdering allied citizens until the last one of them was put down. Regarding the "get off my lawn" comment, yes, that's kind of how countries work. When you step over the boundaries of a sovereign state with a large force, they are entitled to respond in kind. I do agree that it's ridiculous that this situation ever came to this however. It shows an astonishingly large amount of incompetence on the part of both governments. edit: Here's the link to the report of the battle http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/republic-fleet-force-destroyed-entering-federation-despite-capsuleer-pleas-for-peace/
That's incredible. I had assumed the Feds fired first.
I am deeply saddened.
If it's alright, I would like to attend Federation day with you all, in solidarity. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:06:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:Cipher7 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a caldari loyalist? I wouldn't expect you to understand the subtleties involved. Suffice it to say that flying for Pyre gives me a satisfying opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia. You stated that you were a Republic-Federation supporter until the Coleile incident, which is about 3 weeks after you joined Pyre. You stated that you were outraged at the deaths of "your people" (whom you now also get to shoot.) Good luck with the subtleties.
And yet public records show that I didn't start shooting Republic Militia until after Colelie. Funny, that.
For the record, by the way, I said I was a supporter of the Republic, not a supporter of the Federation. An examination of my past employment records as well as statements made should make that clear.
I understand that you may not "get" how I can be angry in the case of Colelie, yet be satisfied at having worked with State-affiliated agencies. It's really a matter of intent. I've declared my intention to shoot the Federation Militia (and now the Republic Militia). I'm registered with CONCORD as intending to do that. Said militia pilots see me on their overviews with an angry red star. There's no way that they can be surprised by my firing upon them. The Republic Fleet, on the other hand, opened fire on allies (and yes, in answer to your question about who fired first, the Republic Fleet fired first) apparently on a whim. They sidled up to their ally and and slid a knife in their back, and in doing so they lost any moral high ground they may have held. Bio and writing |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
464
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:13:00 -
[113] - Quote
1) Before the attack, communications between the Tribal Council and the Federation had been going on for days. Ultimatums were on the table and negotiations had been stopped. By then it was clear to everyone in space that if the situation will not be resolved, it will come to blows - and that certainly includes the Federation.
2) Even if they somehow managed to miss that, the information that the Federation knew the Republic attack was coming leaked to general public hours before the events. They certainly did expect it, even if they did not heed the diplomatic warnings.
3) Therefore, calling this a surprise attack is somewhat exaggerated. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:23:00 -
[114] - Quote
I never claimed it was a surprise attack. I think everyone involved knew that it would come to blows, as you pointed out. It wasn't a surprise. Unwarranted attack by the Republic Fleet without declaration of war? Yes. Surprise? No. Bio and writing |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
465
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:44:00 -
[115] - Quote
According to my information, the Tribal Council had negotiated with the Federation for a long time before the events, and that those negotiations had ended unsuccessful. The ultimatums were on the table, from both sides. We have still not (thankfully) seen intent from either side to enter into a state of war. Distasteful as quarrels between allies are, there is much room between perfectly harmonious co-existence and total war.
Elsebeth |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
50
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:53:00 -
[116] - Quote
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:But that is EXACTLY what the republic failed to do. You (the Republic) didn't negotiate with the Feds, you just said "Gimme" and when you were met with "no", you promptly displayed behaviour that the parents of all children know all too well. That is, the temper tantrum. Except you didn't bellow "I'm going to scream until I'm sick!" Or stamp your feet or slam doors or wail and scream. You dispatched a dreadnought fleet against the sovereign space of your oldest ally.
The republic failed to negotiate or arrange a compromise, otherwise those Dreadnoughts would have been dispatched quite some time later. But what do I know about these things.
No, Ms. Adrelana. The Republic had been trying to negotiate and arrange a compromise the ever since the Federation's court refused extradition. The Gallente refused all attempts at negotiation and compromise.
And it was hardly an immediate thing. Quite a bit of time had already passed between the denial of extradition and the events at Colelie.
Since I wasn't personally privy to the negotiations, i can't comment on just how thorough and complete they were, but they were going on, and what we have been told so far is that the Tribal Council had determined that negotiation was not going to succeed. |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:54:00 -
[117] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Distasteful as quarrels between allies are, there is much room between perfectly harmonious co-existence and total war.
Quarrels? I don't think I'd really call Colelie a quarrel. You and I arguing about whose turn it is to wash the dishes is a quarrel. You and I getting into a fist fight over the dishes would not be a quarrel. And any battle in which the death count runs into the tens of thousands is seriously, seriously far beyond a quarrel.
In any case, it doesn't really matter. You and all the other like-minded Republic supporters are going to continue to feel justified for this new page in Republic-Federation relations. You and I, we're never really going to see eye to eye on this. We're just both speaking into the wind here, and I for one am fine with leaving it at that. Bio and writing |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
61
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 05:58:00 -
[118] - Quote
Three weeks? In diplo terms that's barely enough time to get your feet under the table and start eyeing up the aides. Processes like this take months with all kinds of hearings, discussions and intel gathering. Not to mention back room dealings, power playing and agendas of various kinds. Part of this is largely intentional, so that by the time the diplos have made their verdict, the public can be braced to accept an unpopular decision largely because public interest has moved on to other things. Its also so that the diplos can take each other out to dinner and build rapport which can then be used as diplomatic capital when it comes to making agreements not just now but in the future. But in short, three weeks is not enough time for the diplos to do their thing. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 17:17:00 -
[119] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:Distasteful as quarrels between allies are, there is much room between perfectly harmonious co-existence and total war. Quarrels? I don't think I'd really call Colelie a quarrel. You and I arguing about whose turn it is to wash the dishes is a quarrel. You and I getting into a fist fight over the dishes would not be a quarrel. And any battle in which the death count runs into the tens of thousands is seriously, seriously far beyond a quarrel. In any case, it doesn't really matter. You and all the other like-minded Republic supporters are going to continue to feel justified for this new page in Republic-Federation relations. You and I, we're never really going to see eye to eye on this. We're just both speaking into the wind here, and I for one am fine with leaving it at that.
I don't think any of us have called the incident justified. I know I won't be unless I hear some compelling explanation from the Tribal Council as to why it was necessary to send a suicide force into Colelie.
Our displeasure with the Federation is the only thing we've stated as justified. |
Ragnar STS
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
54
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 01:57:00 -
[120] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:
That's incredible. I had assumed the Feds fired first.
I am deeply saddened.
If it's alright, I would like to attend Federation day with you all, in solidarity.
I would actually believe that the Feds did fire first...just that the Republic's weapons tend to land first. |
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Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
966
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 03:17:00 -
[121] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Our displeasure with the Federation is the only thing we've stated as justified.
Jumping fleets into foreign space on two separate occasions is a statement of a bit more than displeasure, it's also not justified.
You don't get to make the law because someone else won't act in their house to your whims. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
503
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 03:26:00 -
[122] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Our displeasure with the Federation is the only thing we've stated as justified. Jumping fleets into foreign space on two separate occasions is a statement of a bit more than displeasure Usually doing something like that is an act of war. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
55
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 17:58:00 -
[123] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Our displeasure with the Federation is the only thing we've stated as justified. Jumping fleets into foreign space on two separate occasions is a statement of a bit more than displeasure, it's also not justified. You don't get to make the law because someone else won't act in their house to your whims.
Seems you need to go back to school and learn to read. I stated very clearly that I don't consider the fleet's incursion into Federation space to be justified, nor does anyone I know.
In fact, if you look at the post I made which you quoted, you very clearly left out a very important part of the post.
Katarina Musana wrote:I don't think any of us have called the incident justified. I know I won't be unless I hear some compelling explanation from the Tribal Council as to why it was necessary to send a suicide force into Colelie.
Calling the incident justified and stating that our displeasure, even anger, with the Federation is justified are two entirely separate things. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
968
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 19:11:00 -
[124] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Our displeasure with the Federation is the only thing we've stated as justified. Jumping fleets into foreign space on two separate occasions is a statement of a bit more than displeasure, it's also not justified. You don't get to make the law because someone else won't act in their house to your whims. Seems you need to go back to school and learn to read. I stated very clearly that I don't consider the fleet's incursion into Federation space to be justified, nor does anyone I know. In fact, if you look at the post I made which you quoted, you very clearly left out a very important part of the post. Katarina Musana wrote:I don't think any of us have called the incident justified. I know I won't be unless I hear some compelling explanation from the Tribal Council as to why it was necessary to send a suicide force into Colelie. Calling the incident justified and stating that our displeasure, even anger, with the Federation is justified are two entirely separate things.
I think you've missed my point too, I'll explain for you without even using petty insults.
When you jump a fleet into your allies territory and kill thousands of their citizens, you don't get to justify your displeasure, because when you pull a stunt like that you don't have a leg to stand on.
Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy of the cause of your original displeasure, for a civilisation that constantly snarls and claims people are infringing on it's ways and meddling in it's affairs, and decry their allies as attempting to control them, you sure damn well make demands that they did things your way in their land, and got pissy when they said no.
So no, your displeasure isn't justified, at all really. Midular was returned home at the earliest possible time she could be moved, that was a justified request. Demanding the Federation adhere to your law in their land does is not cause for justified displeasure when they denied your request. And that was before your fleet broke CONCORD law and murdered Federal citizens, at which point your displeasure can go throw itself out of an airlock.
See, if you had a leg to stand on in the first place because for example, it was a case of Roden being an egotistical prick, or he'd gone back to his alleged underhanded dealings, or possibly that slime Blaque had orchestrated the whole thing, and this had happened in the Republic and the gunman had fled to Federal space you'd actually be justified, in some cases for just about everything. But none of that happened, so you aren't.
And if that was all too long for you, I'll summarise. Your displeasure is irrelevant. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 20:19:00 -
[125] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote: I think you've missed my point too, I'll explain for you without even using petty insults.
When you jump a fleet into your allies territory and kill thousands of their citizens, you don't get to justify your displeasure, because when you pull a stunt like that you don't have a leg to stand on.
Wrong. Making a wrong decision when angered does not invalidate the anger. Neither does the anger justify the wrong decision. The justification of the two are separate from each other. It's even possible, though perhaps unlikely, to make a justifiable decision while unjustifiably angry.
We are justifiably angry/frustrated with the Federationi. This has no bearing on the bearing on the justification or lack thereof in regards to Colelie.
Quote:Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy of the cause of your original displeasure, for a civilisation that constantly snarls and claims people are infringing on it's ways and meddling in it's affairs, and decry their allies as attempting to control them, you sure damn well make demands that they did things your way in their land, and got pissy when they said no.
You don't even realize what our original displeasure is.
Quote:So no, your displeasure isn't justified, at all really. Midular was returned home at the earliest possible time she could be moved, that was a justified request. Demanding the Federation adhere to your law in their land does is not cause for justified displeasure when they denied your request. And that was before your fleet broke CONCORD law and murdered Federal citizens, at which point your displeasure can go throw itself out of an airlock.
There's no point in arguing this with you because you clearly don't even understand or know what all has been going on for a long time now.
Quote:See, if you had a leg to stand on in the first place because for example, it was a case of Roden being an egotistical prick, or he'd gone back to his alleged underhanded dealings, or possibly that slime Blaque had orchestrated the whole thing, and this had happened in the Republic and the gunman had fled to Federal space you'd actually be justified, in some cases for just about everything. But none of that happened, so you aren't.
Your example of Blaque is actually a possibility, though I wouldn't have any idea how to go about discovering if that were the actually the case. But, this is why I have stated that I will only consider Colelie justifiable if the Tribal Council brings forth some pretty damning evidence to justify their decision.
Quote:And if that was all too long for you, I'll summarise. Your displeasure is irrelevant.
It really isn't, because our displeasure is not a localized incident, and goes far beyond the events of colelie or even the way the Federation handled things in regards to the shooting of Midular and others of our people.
|
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 14:32:00 -
[126] - Quote
I've been thinking about your statements here, Musana, and trying to make sense of them. It sounds like you're both defending the Republic's anger (I'm assuming your "we" meant "the Republic") as well as it's behavior during the battle of Colelie, while trying to distance yourself from the appearance of support of the attack. That's an interesting spin, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I knew a woman once with an abusive boyfriend. He'd excuse his behavior by saying things like "I hate it when we quarrel. If only you hadn't made me so angry...". That seems like a good analogy here.
My friend, by the way, ended up leaving her boyfriend and was far better off for it, too. Seems to me that is a good analogy here, as well. Bio and writing |
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
473
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 15:06:00 -
[127] - Quote
I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach to two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting.
It is quite possible to at the same time thing Republic's anger has a good reason, and to think that what happened in Colelie was crossing the line. You do not need to say we are wrong in being angry to say we were wrong in Colelie.
Elsebeth |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:02:00 -
[128] - Quote
Oh, that's not what I'm saying at all, Elsebeth, and you were pretty clear in your official EM statement about the battle of Colelie. I'm addressing what seems to me to be a common position among Shakorites that the battle itself was justified and that anyone questioning that justification is also questioning the justification of the Republic to be angry that Midular's shooter was not extradited.
Bio and writing |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
973
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 17:17:00 -
[129] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting.
You also teach a two year old that it's not ok to throw a tantrum when they don't get something their way. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
52
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 18:47:00 -
[130] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting. You also teach a two year old that it's not ok to throw a tantrum when they don't get something their way.
Maybe if you didn't treat your allies like 2 year old's they wouldn't be shooting at you.
Just sayin. |
|
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
522
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 19:34:00 -
[131] - Quote
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting.
Where I come from "it is not ok to be angry, but it is understandable". |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
974
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 01:07:00 -
[132] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting. You also teach a two year old that it's not ok to throw a tantrum when they don't get something their way. Maybe if you didn't treat your allies like 2 year old's they wouldn't be shooting at you. Just sayin.
Still making a fatal error in your argumentation.
Just sayin. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
James Syagrius
Stillwater Corporation That Escalated Quickly
409
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 04:03:00 -
[133] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting. You also teach a two year old that it's not ok to throw a tantrum when they don't get something their way. Maybe if you didn't treat your allies like 2 year old's they wouldn't be shooting at you. Just sayin. Perhaps if GÇ£theyGÇ¥ meaning the Tribals acted less like petulant children your point would be relevant.
The long and short of it is that "they" attacked those "they" called ally, killing many of their people.
That wonGÇÖt be forgotten or forgiven. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
http://syagrius-eve.blogspot.com/
|
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
53
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:28:00 -
[134] - Quote
James Syagrius wrote:Cipher7 wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:I don't know about you guys, but where I come from "It is ok to be angry; it is not ok to scream and hit" is stuff we teach two-year-olds. That some of you have not learned separate between emotion and action yet is... interesting. You also teach a two year old that it's not ok to throw a tantrum when they don't get something their way. Maybe if you didn't treat your allies like 2 year old's they wouldn't be shooting at you. Just sayin. Perhaps if GÇ£theyGÇ¥ meaning the Tribals acted less like petulant children your point would be relevant. The long and short of it is that "they" attacked those "they" called ally, killing many of their people. That wonGÇÖt be forgotten or forgiven.
So smug, so superior, you sound just like an Amarr.
Fraternity is a two-way street. Respect is a two-way street. And reconciliation is a two-way street.
Maybe it is we who are not ready to forgive yet. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
57
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 14:54:00 -
[135] - Quote
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:I've been thinking about your statements here, Musana, and trying to make sense of them. It sounds like you're both defending the Republic's anger (I'm assuming your "we" meant "the Republic") as well as it's behavior during the battle of Colelie, while trying to distance yourself from the appearance of support of the attack. That's an interesting spin, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
I knew a woman once with an abusive boyfriend. He'd excuse his behavior by saying things like "I hate it when we quarrel. If only you hadn't made me so angry...". That seems like a good analogy here.
My friend, by the way, ended up leaving her boyfriend and was far better off for it, too. Seems to me that is a good analogy here, as well.
Your analogy doesn't hold up for one primary reason. You're comparing an example of a pattern with a single event. If anything, the pattern in the "relationship" between the Federation and the Republic goes the other way, though instead of "direct physical abuse" it would be psychological/emotional abuse.
As for your assessment of my statements, I have made it quite clear that I currently do not see Colelie as being justified. This view is unlikely to change unless the Tribal Council comes forth with a damn good explanation and particularly damning evidence to support the explanation.
Our anger and frustration with how the Federation has treated us over the years, however, is justified, and is in no way limited to the issue of how the Federation has handled the situation regarding the shooter.
|
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
152
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 15:53:00 -
[136] - Quote
I am still confused why Angel Cartel sycophants are being given the position of spokespersons for Federal capsuleers. If only Director Damith could see this now... |
Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 16:53:00 -
[137] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote:I am still confused why Angel Cartel sycophants are being given the position of spokespersons for Federal capsuleers. If only Director Damith could see this now...
It's quite simple. There's often more to people than the hats they wear, and some of us have the capacity to take the person as we find them.
If I take your example of James, he's someone that misses home and I have a feeling he suspects he made the wrong decision in leaving the Federation. I really hope he comes back to us, and when he does I'll welcome him.
Then there's you, Mr Soter. You claim to be a Federation loyalist, and assure everyone that you wear the "right" hat. Underneath that veneer though, I suspect there's something quite ugly lurking.
|
Aurora Fatalis
Black Dawn Rising
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.25 17:25:00 -
[138] - Quote
Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion? |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
58
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 03:25:00 -
[139] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?
It's hard to describe without spending time in the field.
Most joint-ops are classified but generally, having worked with Gallente it's like being the hired help. You are told "go here, cover this gate" without any knowledge of the overall operation. You are a gun, period. And if Gallente personnel are in danger, you cover their retreat. You get to escape only when they cyno out. Often I found myself wondering "Why am I putting up with this?" but you do it, because in the end you're hurting slavers and other galactic pieces of schit.
Politics wise you'll have to ask someone else, but I'm sure their experience is similar.
Does it justify Coleile? No.
But just speaking for myself
1. I am certain the Ray of Matar was assassinated by elements of the Federation govt. 2. I am certain hundreds of Republic and Gallente citizens were killed by elements of the Federation govt. 3. I am certain the lone suspect is being protected from a proper investigation by elements of the Federation govt. 4. I am certain the lone suspect will be killed in prison to silence him. 5. I am certain both Roden and Shakor know all of the above
Does THAT justify Coleile? No but....
We still don't know what exactly the Coleile operation was. Whether it was a warning, a jailbreak gone awry, a ceremonial battle, an ultimatum.
We don't bloody know.
The tribal council is like your parliament, these are sober, strategic individuals with alot of political finesse. If they approved it then we are all missing critical information regarding the why and wherefor.
I personally would not have approved it, but I am no politician or tactician, I don't know all the classified information. And therefor I am hesitant to condemn the operation as well, knowing almost nothing of its reasons. |
Zsaryna Adrelana
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
66
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 07:46:00 -
[140] - Quote
Once again your knowledge of military doctrine has shown itself to be extremely lacking. When I was in the Navy, I worked with elements from MIO and various other imperial organisations and what you have just described is pretty much the accepted doctrine when regular forces work alongside SF units. We would hold a gate, we would cover a system or keep a perimeter whilst they went in to do whatever they needed to do, we were never told what the mission was because we never needed to know. This is established military good practice. The Caldari do it, the Gallente do it and we do it.
Covering their retreat is part of the job, since their lives and ships are more expensive than ours, in the same way as my life was worth more than that of a line grunt purely because I cost more to replace and take more time to retrain.
Your government has a lot of political finesse? In comparison to what, a fedo?
Openings expressed herein are not representative of policy decisions by The Royal Navy and its affiliates and shareholders. My alt has two Gnosis, how does he smell?Awful. |
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Lyn Farel
Kitzless
532
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 09:31:00 -
[141] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?
Echo chambers and viral ideological propagation. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 09:50:00 -
[142] - Quote
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:Once again your knowledge of military doctrine has shown itself to be extremely lacking. When I was in the Navy, I worked with elements from MIO and various other imperial organisations and what you have just described is pretty much the accepted doctrine when regular forces work alongside SF units. We would hold a gate, we would cover a system or keep a perimeter whilst they went in to do whatever they needed to do, we were never told what the mission was because we never needed to know. This is established military good practice. The Caldari do it, the Gallente do it and we do it.
Covering their retreat is part of the job, since their lives and ships are more expensive than ours, in the same way as my life was worth more than that of a line grunt purely because I cost more to replace and take more time to retrain.
Your government has a lot of political finesse? In comparison to what, a fedo?
Openings expressed herein are not representative of policy decisions by The Royal Navy and its affiliates and shareholders.
We not talking about opsec, we talking basic combined-fleet collaboration.
Only thing "special" about the Gallente I've worked with is their attitude. "Gallente special forces" we had another name for those guys, we call them "Minmatar contractors."
Fedo haha cute.
Yeah your govt is very subtle "we gonna reclaim the whole galaxy" maybe the tribal council should try that angle "hey guys we gonna kill and enslave you all" see how that works out for political discourse. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 21:57:00 -
[143] - Quote
Aurora Fatalis wrote:Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion?
First off, most Matari I know, including me, do not consider our grievances with the Federation to be justification for what happened in Colelie.
I would also only describe some of it as outright bullying, which would include the attitude the Federation seems to have that we owe them complete obedience and deference because of the help they've given us in the past, as well as the arrogant manner in which the Federation repeatedly reminds us of all the help they've given us in the past, expecting us to be good little lapdogs they can show off as an example of how their ideals of "democracy" and "complete freedom" can "civilize" primitive tribals.
They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies, expecting us to simply toss all that aside and adopt their own culture and philosophies purely out of gratitude for the help they gave us. They spent a long time trying to convince us to do away with our most important traditions, such as the voluval, as part of their attempts to "civilize" us, and continue to treat us like children because we won't just toss aside our tribal culture.
Contrary to popular belief, we actually are very grateful to the Federation for their help in so many of our people regaining their freedom. But their help and well-deserved gratitude doesn't give them any right to the condescending, arrogant behavior they've been directing at us ever since., and we are, quite frankly, getting tired of it.
And, because I know someone will ignore what I said at the start of this post (and probably what I say here, too), I'll reiterate. These grievances we have with the Federation are legitimate and significant, but no, they don't justify what happened at Colelie. Nothing that I am aware of justifies what happened at Colelie. And I'm not sure I want Colelie to be justified as that may well prove the Federation to be something much worse than simply arrogant pricks who think their way is the only civilized way. |
BloodBird
Duty.
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.26 22:46:00 -
[144] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Aurora Fatalis wrote:Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion? First off, most Matari I know, including me, do not consider our grievances with the Federation to be justification for what happened in Colelie. I would also only describe some of it as outright bullying, which would include the attitude the Federation seems to have that we owe them complete obedience and deference because of the help they've given us in the past, as well as the arrogant manner in which the Federation repeatedly reminds us of all the help they've given us in the past, expecting us to be good little lapdogs they can show off as an example of how their ideals of "democracy" and "complete freedom" can "civilize" primitive tribals. They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies, expecting us to simply toss all that aside and adopt their own culture and philosophies purely out of gratitude for the help they gave us. They spent a long time trying to convince us to do away with our most important traditions, such as the voluval, as part of their attempts to "civilize" us, and continue to treat us like children because we won't just toss aside our tribal culture. Contrary to popular belief, we actually are very grateful to the Federation for their help in so many of our people regaining their freedom. But their help and well-deserved gratitude doesn't give them any right to the condescending, arrogant behavior they've been directing at us ever since., and we are, quite frankly, getting tired of it. And, because I know someone will ignore what I said at the start of this post (and probably what I say here, too), I'll reiterate. These grievances we have with the Federation are legitimate and significant, but no, they don't justify what happened at Colelie. Nothing that I am aware of justifies what happened at Colelie. And I'm not sure I want Colelie to be justified as that may well prove the Federation to be something much worse than simply arrogant pricks who think their way is the only civilized way.
I am assuming here you have concrete examples of this torrent of accusations. I would further appreciate it if you would share them.
|
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
989
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 00:09:00 -
[145] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies
The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 02:19:00 -
[146] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law.
So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along? |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
990
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 02:31:00 -
[147] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law. So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?
Why should they respect yours when you don't even acknowledge theirs?
It's blind pettiness and ignorance from both sides. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Edwin Sterrick
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 03:36:00 -
[148] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law. So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along?
Of course! After all, this all started when the Federation demanded that the Minmatar extradite a Matari suspect, over a crime committed in Matari space, whose victims were overwhelmingly Republic citizens.
...no, wait, silly me! That's what actually disrespecting someone's culture looks like. |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
Edwin Sterrick wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law. So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along? Of course! After all, this all started when the Federation demanded that the Minmatar extradite a Matari suspect, over a crime committed in Matari space, whose victims were overwhelmingly Republic citizens. ...no, wait, silly me! That's what actually disrespecting someone's culture looks like.
First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship. Second, a Matari Tribal Chief was one of the victims. Third, the crime has been made clear to have been anti-Matari in purpose.
Insisting on extradition was in no way disrespectful of Federation culture. It had nothing to do with Federation culture, only Federal Law.
And it was a situation where both sides should've been willing to compromise, though once the Ray died, releasing the shooter over to the Republic should've been a foregone conclusion. He killed a Tribal Chief. I would hope that if your President were killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, the Federation would insist on extradition, or does the Federation really have so little respect for its leaders? |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 08:14:00 -
[150] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law. So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along? Why should they respect yours when you don't even acknowledge theirs? It's blind pettiness and ignorance from both sides.
We have never refused to acknowledge Federation culture. They have actively tried to get us to abandon our culture altogether ever since we became free and were finally able to live according to our culture and traditions again. |
|
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
990
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 11:38:00 -
[151] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:
We have never refused to acknowledge Federation culture.
Katarina Musana wrote:
Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that)
Uhuh. Helps to remember what you wrote the day before. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
BloodBird
Duty.
201
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 12:25:00 -
[152] - Quote
BloodBird wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Aurora Fatalis wrote:Pardon me for being uneducated in history (Mine was a science major), but I see a lot of vague talk of how the Federation has bullied the Minmatar republic, with few specifics being referenced, and those few hardly being of the let's murder thousands of Gallentean citizens caliber. How, I wonder, has the Federation treated you terribly enough that your forget the bonds we made during the original rebellion? First off, most Matari I know, including me, do not consider our grievances with the Federation to be justification for what happened in Colelie. I would also only describe some of it as outright bullying, which would include the attitude the Federation seems to have that we owe them complete obedience and deference because of the help they've given us in the past, as well as the arrogant manner in which the Federation repeatedly reminds us of all the help they've given us in the past, expecting us to be good little lapdogs they can show off as an example of how their ideals of "democracy" and "complete freedom" can "civilize" primitive tribals. They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies, expecting us to simply toss all that aside and adopt their own culture and philosophies purely out of gratitude for the help they gave us. They spent a long time trying to convince us to do away with our most important traditions, such as the voluval, as part of their attempts to "civilize" us, and continue to treat us like children because we won't just toss aside our tribal culture. Contrary to popular belief, we actually are very grateful to the Federation for their help in so many of our people regaining their freedom. But their help and well-deserved gratitude doesn't give them any right to the condescending, arrogant behavior they've been directing at us ever since., and we are, quite frankly, getting tired of it. And, because I know someone will ignore what I said at the start of this post (and probably what I say here, too), I'll reiterate. These grievances we have with the Federation are legitimate and significant, but no, they don't justify what happened at Colelie. Nothing that I am aware of justifies what happened at Colelie. And I'm not sure I want Colelie to be justified as that may well prove the Federation to be something much worse than simply arrogant pricks who think their way is the only civilized way. I am assuming here you have concrete examples of this torrent of accusations. I would further appreciate it if you would share them.
I notice that you are yet to even attempt to do this, or acknowledge that I even asked you to do so.
I'll give you a bit more time. Say, a day or so, before I just draw my own conclusions about your claims.
|
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:05:00 -
[153] - Quote
A long pattern of cultural imperialism is hard to break down into "incidents."
Aliastra stores shuttin down local merchants Egonics screwin wit traditional songs Quafe factories dumpin crap in the water
Our politicians say "the community needs jobs," I say "When did Matari ever have to 'clock in' and why should we start now?"
Your kind say we are backwards.
I say backwards is when you tink you know everything. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
991
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 14:18:00 -
[154] - Quote
You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.
Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Edwin Sterrick
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 15:14:00 -
[155] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:Edwin Sterrick wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:They've frequently shown blatant disregard for our culture and philosophies The irony in this line alone is the major objection I've had with the Republic throughout this incident, before they were breaking CONCORD law. So, tell me, why should we respect Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that) and philosophy when the Federation has refused to respect ours all along? Of course! After all, this all started when the Federation demanded that the Minmatar extradite a Matari suspect, over a crime committed in Matari space, whose victims were overwhelmingly Republic citizens. ...no, wait, silly me! That's what actually disrespecting someone's culture looks like. First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship. Second, a Matari Tribal Chief was one of the victims. Third, the crime has been made clear to have been anti-Matari in purpose. Insisting on extradition was in no way disrespectful of Federation culture. It had nothing to do with Federation culture, only Federal Law. And it was a situation where both sides should've been willing to compromise, though once the Ray died, releasing the shooter over to the Republic should've been a foregone conclusion. He killed a Tribal Chief. I would hope that if your President were killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, the Federation would insist on extradition, or does the Federation really have so little respect for its leaders?
Do I look like a Feddie to you?
Obviously, if Heth were to be killed in some other nation's space, we wouldn't want his killer extradited, except possibly to give them a medal. But even if it was a leader we actually cared about, we're not so arrogant as to completely ignore some other people's laws and customs.
|
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 17:37:00 -
[156] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.
Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations.
We not in court mon.
Jus tellin how it is, one human to another.
Anyway
An incident this big is sure to attract all sorts of agencies, resources and big shots, we'll know more in the coming weeks, and if I end up being wrong about a Federation conspiracy to assassinate the Ray then I'll pony up an apology.
Till then I think it's wise to reserve judgements (fat chance, I know, just speakin for me personally.) |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
534
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 18:37:00 -
[157] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote: First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship.
Pardon me to interrupt, but they were also for most of them Federal citizens. This is part of the crux of the matter.
Cipher7 wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.
Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations. We not in court mon. Jus tellin how it is, one human to another.
I must be dreaming. |
Rioghal Morgan
Full Artificial Intelligence
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 18:58:00 -
[158] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote:
First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship. Second, a Matari Tribal Chief was one of the victims. Third, the crime has been made clear to have been anti-Matari in purpose.
Insisting on extradition was in no way disrespectful of Federation culture. It had nothing to do with Federation culture, only Federal Law.
And it was a situation where both sides should've been willing to compromise, though once the Ray died, releasing the shooter over to the Republic should've been a foregone conclusion. He killed a Tribal Chief. I would hope that if your President were killed on Republic soil by a Republic citizen, the Federation would insist on extradition, or does the Federation really have so little respect for its leaders?
You mention the ethnic origin of some but not all of the victims as if that somehow entitles you to spit on the traditional judicial system of your oldest ally and then claim that that's not obviously disrespectful of Gallentean culture? That's disrespect of the worst kind. An ally trusts their friends to take care of their own business that happens in their sovereign territory.
And yes, I think the Federation would respect the Republic's sovereignty and let the prosecution happen in the Republic. That's how allies act.
Furthermore, you don't get to send two fleets over our border and somehow insist that the Minmatar are still the most grievously wronged party here. They murdered thousands! I don't deny the Federation has mishandled this but insisting on how you''re still being victimized after your government committed a war-crime is just insane. Do you not think the Federation deserves justice or is that something only Minmatar deserve out of this whole tragedy? Are we just supposed to grin and bear it while we bury our dead while catering to your needs all the time? I hear scarcely a peep from anyone about that. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
995
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 20:28:00 -
[159] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:You make a lot of accusations with little fact to support them you know.
Still want reference that the Federal Navy was using the Matari as a meatshield to cover their own tails, because I've not found reference to anything like that in previous joint operations. We not in court mon. Jus tellin how it is, one human to another.
I don't deal in your fantasy make believe conspiracy bullshit.
Give me facts, or don't waste my time with your inane prattle. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 23:07:00 -
[160] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Katarina Musana wrote:
We have never refused to acknowledge Federation culture.
Katarina Musana wrote:
Federation "culture" (if you can even call it that)
Uhuh. Helps to remember what you wrote the day before.
I fully acknowledged they have something they call culture. Also, I am not the Republic. I am merely one citizen, who's not even directly involved in Government. |
|
Katarina Musana
Gradient Electus Matari
63
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 00:34:00 -
[161] - Quote
Lyn Farel wrote:Katarina Musana wrote: First off, the majority, if not all, of the victims were Matari, regardless of citizenship.
Pardon me to interrupt, but they were also for most of them Federal citizens. This is part of the crux of the matter..
Yes, that's where the disagreement over jurisdiction comes in, at least before a Tribal Chief died as a direct result of the shooting. Had Midular not been involved, I, for one, would be very much in agreement with the idea of a joint investigation on what happened.
I'm not privy to exactly what was being negotiated between the Federation and the Republic, but everything points to the Republic being unwilling to share any information in regards to the shooter, something that there was every reason for them to do.
Rioghal Morgan wrote:You mention the ethnic origin of some but not all of the victims as if that somehow entitles you to spit on the traditional judicial system of your oldest ally and then claim that that's not obviously disrespectful of Gallentean culture?
Most, if not all, of them were ethnically Matari, not simply "some." Many of them were Republic Citizens. One of them was a Tribal Chief.
And no one was spitting on the judicial system of the Federation, at least not until after they spat on our judicial system with their condescending and insulting statements when making their denial of extradition known.
And no, asking for extradition in the first place was not disrespectful, but a legitimate thing to do considering one of our Tribal Chiefs was severely injured.
Quote:Furthermore, you don't get to send two fleets over our border and somehow insist that the Minmatar are still the most grievously wronged party here.
In the specific incidents revolving around the Battle of Colelie? No, we weren't the most grievously wounded there. Or at least, based on how things look currently. I still wonder if there wasn't some legitimate reason the Tribal Council hasn't come forth with yet that justifies the events of Colelie, but unless they come forth with proof of it, there's just no way to justify it.
That, however, does not change nearly a century of condescension and other mistreatment by our allies.
Quote:And yes, I think the Federation would respect the Republic's sovereignty and let the prosecution happen in the Republic. That's how allies act.
If you really think this, you're clueless about how governments work. |
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
62
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 11:40:00 -
[162] - Quote
Katarina Musana wrote: I'm not privy to exactly what was being negotiated between the Federation and the Republic, but everything points to the Republic being unwilling to share any information in regards to the shooter, something that there was every reason for them to do.
Think you means Federation |
Shintoko Akahoshi
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
111
|
Posted - 2013.05.28 14:31:00 -
[163] - Quote
Cipher7 wrote:Katarina Musana wrote: I'm not privy to exactly what was being negotiated between the Federation and the Republic, but everything points to the Republic being unwilling to share any information in regards to the shooter, something that there was every reason for them to do.
Think you means Federation
Typo aside, I would like to see the evidence of this. I've seen individual pilots complaining that the Federation hasn't shared information with the republic, but I hadn't seen anything out of the Shakor administration on that. There have been very public demands by Shakor to transfer Midular to a Republic hospital, and to extradite the shooter. There has not been any complaint that I have seen by the Republic government that the Federation was not sharing information about the shooter or its investigation. I'm not saying that the Federation did share information, but I'd like to see the evidence behind these accusations. Bio and writing |
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