Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
35
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
First of all, I'm a Supercapital pilot. I own an Avatar and a Nyx.
Remove them from the game.
- Reprocess ships and place all minerals in "Redeemable Items" based on ME 0 Titan/Supercarrier BPO - Refund all skillbook costs & refund skillpoints - Place character in home station.
The Supercapital problem will not improve by simply nerfing these ships into uselessness as CCP has intended to do. My Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.
- The power of the Doomsday is fine as it is, but when you look at the numbers of Titans owned by any one corporation/alliance, it is unbalanced. When an alliance can drop 50 titans on an opposing fleet, there is something terribly wrong.
- I don't want to bring tracking titans back. This was a stupid mechanic and far too easy to make subcapital fleets inferior.
I want to bring back Dreadnought slugfeasts and the days when Carriers were considered something amazing. Remove Supercapitals from the game completely.
This will go a long way to balancing the game and giving newer alliances the chance to succeed. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
504
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd like to see a smaller set of capital weapons which cost less powergrid, and a capital armor plate and shield extender. So if you expect titans in the area, you could downgrade your weapons and fit your dreads with plates or extenders along with hardeners to push their EHP well above 2 mil, maybe over 4 mil, so that it takes more shots to kill em. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
93
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Removing Supers won't solve anything with blob warfare. And although you've probably played a good while, mega Corps/Alliances have been a thing since within a few months of Eve's launch day. Go back a good while when BoB was around and there were SO few Titans even in the game that it was actual news when one was used. The only thing removing Supers does is SP cap any toon over about 7-8 years old. Blob wars will ALWAYS happen, whether there are Capital ships or not. Capitals/Supers in the theatre of war add a unique combat orientation.
Take a point from RL. To say "remove all Aircraft Carriers from the world, they serve no purpose but a staging point for war and cost tens of billions" is ignorant as a Carrier IRL can be THE deciding factor in a war on foreign shores. Though the USA spends WAY too much of tax payer's money on "defense" but that's another Jenny Jones show.
There is no good reason for CCP to remove any ships from the game, from the smallest (some would say T1 Frigates are useless in blobs, but they would be mistaken as well) to the largest. If YOU don't like how much it costs for your Titan and think ti's useless then sell it and work on some other skills, maybe Invention or POS babysitting would suit you.
Quote:This will go a long way to balancing the game and giving newer alliances the chance to succeed.
Also removing Supers will NOT IN ANY WAY effect the sheer size of Alliances like Goons. Small Alliance will NEVER be able to compete against an Alliance of their size unless they merge with others to specifically take them out, just like what goes on in Eve on a weekly basis, territory changing hands and back again, the ebb and flow of Eve. Check out my post about some Drone lovin: Proposed Drone Improvement |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
155
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 02:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
As the owner of a Titan, I see the validity of the argument that Tib is making, but it will never happen.
I too remember the days when there were only a few Titans and Supercarriers. They were unbalanced and gamebreaking then, just as they are now that there are more of them. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
93
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:As the owner of a Titan, I see the validity of the argument that Tib is making, but it will never happen.
I too remember the days when there were only a few Titans and Supercarriers. They were unbalanced and gamebreaking then, just as they are now that there are more of them. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay.
I'm not saying the OP's point isn't valid I'm saying it won't solve anything when it comes to Alliances with well over 2000 members against Alliances with (if they're lucky) 500 members, and forget Alliances with less than 200 members. Gigantic Alliances will be able to steamroll smaller ones no matter what ship types they're using, period, because all that really matters in Eve's blob warfare is who has the biggest blob. That's not to say a smaller blob NEVER wins, but when faced with 1.5-1 or as much as 20-1 ratios the smaller Fleet with lose most of the time.
Also, SP capping out players basically gives them nothing to work for and thus CCP may lose subs, even if all they have to train for now is different Race's Supers. Check out my post about some Drone lovin: Proposed Drone Improvement |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
36
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 03:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:As the owner of a Titan, I see the validity of the argument that Tib is making, but it will never happen.
I too remember the days when there were only a few Titans and Supercarriers. They were unbalanced and gamebreaking then, just as they are now that there are more of them. Unfortunately, I think they are here to stay. I'm not saying the OP's point isn't valid I'm saying it won't solve anything when it comes to Alliances with well over 2000 members against Alliances with (if they're lucky) 500 members, and forget Alliances with less than 200 members. Gigantic Alliances will be able to steamroll smaller ones no matter what ship types they're using, period, because all that really matters in Eve's blob warfare is who has the biggest blob. That's not to say a smaller blob NEVER wins, but when faced with 1.5-1 or as much as 20-1 ratios the smaller Fleet with lose most of the time. Also, SP capping out players basically gives them nothing to work for and thus CCP may lose subs, even if all they have to train for now is different Race's Supers.
Alliances with 2,000 members wither and fail under their own weight. It is the circle of life.
Just because you have 10,000 people in your alliance doesn't mean you can get more in fleet than a 1,000 man alliance. Just saying.
When large groups of people get together to accomplish something, that's awesome. If they become too powerful, EVE unites against them. I would run out of room in this post before I could even begin providing examples. |
Alx Warlord
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY Last Resort.
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 09:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Don't you think that the biggest problems is the blob?
Here a few sugestions: SOV CHANGES and POS CHANGES
o7 Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1210
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 10:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Do you have to advertise your awful ideas in every thread you come across? |
Mascha Tzash
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 12:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Besides beeing a forum alt for paranoidic reasons and not flying something lager than a BS...
Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.
Having no cyno would hurt life in non-empire massively but would force the players to work much more together than they do now. Think of Convoys, outmanouvering enemy fleets, the need to produce the most of your stuff in the place you live in. Making your own space worthwile to live in, because you actively don't want to stick to empire rules that someone made up. Basically comitting yourself to that space.
I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 . |
Beaver Retriever
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mascha Tzash wrote:Besides beeing a forum alt for paranoidic reasons and not flying something lager than a BS...
Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.
Having no cyno would hurt life in non-empire massively but would force the players to work much more together than they do now. Think of Convoys, outmanouvering enemy fleets, the need to produce the most of your stuff in the place you live in. Making your own space worthwile to live in, because you actively don't want to stick to empire rules that someone made up. Basically comitting yourself to that space.
I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 . Yes, lets make people run MMO escort missions all day every day.
It's a game. Trying to turn it into world war one for the sake of making it less fun and more annoying.. why? |
|
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mascha Tzash wrote: Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size. ... I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 .
You have obviously NEVER done logistics to the butt-end of the universe, therefore your argument is invalid. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
500
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 17:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
remove supers and swarms of regular carriers will bloat out your sun. nothing solved |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 18:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:remove supers and swarms of regular carriers will bloat out your sun. nothing solved
Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet. |
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 20:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
OP +1
Personally if a blob of 200 vs blob of 50, yes the blob of 200 will win, atleast the blob of 50 wont get titaned and super carriered as well...
one thing you could do, is simply put in a from this date no more titans or supercarriers will ewer be able to built, then that are in the game, is those that exist, and on after one will they slovly disapear... that also will give those that have them, a sence of feeling special, maybe a compromise |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 22:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:one thing you could do, is simply put in a from this date no more titans or supercarriers will ewer be able to built, then that are in the game, is those that exist, and on after one will they slovly disapear... that also will give those that have them, a sence of feeling special, maybe a compromise
Although this still doesn't address the underlying issue the OP brought up about smaller Alliances having a chance, your suggestion is actually pretty good. There are NUMEROUS Supers in the game now and it's not like they go pop by the hundreds every week so even if CCP stopped all building of them with the launch of Odyssey or the next Xpac or w/e there'd still be a ton in game for quite some time to come.
Quote:Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet.
And regular Carriers + Dreads can't do much of anything against a large whelp fleet of sub caps. If some small Alliance trying to eek out an existence drop 50 Carriers/Dreads (with some escort obv) against say Goon's massive cannon fodder fleets they'd be toast, which is exactly how it happens now. The Goon's 200+ Neut Cane fleets are particularly devastating against Cap fleets and cost the Goons basically nothing, they don't even have to risk Cap ships other than to come in at the end and mop up what's left. Check out my post about some Drone lovin: Proposed Drone Improvement |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
92
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 22:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Beaver Retriever wrote:Mascha Tzash wrote:Besides beeing a forum alt for paranoidic reasons and not flying something lager than a BS...
Perhaps its not the supercaps that "ruin" the game. Perhaps its the cyno is the issue. Yeah it would require the gates to be able to handle every ship size.
Having no cyno would hurt life in non-empire massively but would force the players to work much more together than they do now. Think of Convoys, outmanouvering enemy fleets, the need to produce the most of your stuff in the place you live in. Making your own space worthwile to live in, because you actively don't want to stick to empire rules that someone made up. Basically comitting yourself to that space.
I believe that cynos are a the root of the evil stalemate in 0.0 . Yes, lets make people run MMO escort missions all day every day. It's a game. Trying to turn it into world war one for the sake of making it less fun and more annoying.. why?
this isnt a game. when someone has to work to earn a ship, then work to earn the mods and run the chance of loosing tons of money when it dies is not a game. when BOB fell, there was $16000 worth of cap ships stolen from their hangar...that is not a game. this is a simulator or sorts. it reflects real life economics, working towards a goal and actually putting real time into generating goods. a game was xwing vs tie fighter. if u blow up, you get another ship. you push redo. i have yet to be able to push redo and get a faction fit marauder back or an orca for that matter.
i remember the days when FIX was the king of 300 ship drive-by's. we worked with BOB on numerous occasions but when we wanted something, it was a blob fest even back in 03-04. more ships= more destruction.
the only way to stop the blob would be to limit the amount of bad guys who can target a single ship. i am in no way an advocate for this, but if only 1 person can attack 1 ship, then it wouldnt matter how many you brought. things would change. it wouldnt be fleet warfare anymore, it would be a bunch of 1v1.
blob warfare is here to stay.
and cyno's arent the root of evil. i dislike cynos because they force me to rely on someone else to come flag me in...i should be able to jump to that system if i choose without relying on another paying account. but thats my opinion. i like caps being able to jump, but i would love for them to be able to use a gate as well. i dont think thats over powered at all. if i wanna rat 1 system over, its stupid for me to have to get someone to cyno me in 1 system. having the ability to jump is a good thing, but limiting us to jumping as an ONLY means of transport is dumb.
all one would have to do is open the limit for gates. i would jump 2 systems and rat or jump if i have a cyno. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 23:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:Quote:Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet. And regular Carriers + Dreads can't do much of anything against a large whelp fleet of sub caps. If some small Alliance trying to eek out an existence drop 50 Carriers/Dreads (with some escort obv) against say Goon's massive cannon fodder fleets they'd be toast, which is exactly how it happens now. The Goon's 200+ Neut Cane fleets are particularly devastating against Cap fleets and cost the Goons basically nothing, they don't even have to risk Cap ships other than to come in at the end and mop up what's left.
You really are butt-hurt about Goons. Get over it. No one cares that some big, bad fleet touched you in a place the sun don't shine. If some big group of dudes want to use caps and you're afraid of Goons, get a spy and avoid being dropped altogether. If you want to play with the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys. |
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Quote:You really are butt-hurt about Goons. Get over it. No one cares that some big, bad fleet touched you in a place the sun don't shine. If some big group of dudes want to use caps and you're afraid of Goons, get a spy and avoid being dropped altogether. If you want to play with the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys.
No, I'm using Goons as an example because they are EXACTLY the type of Alliance that stands in the way of the smaller Alliances that YOU hope to help with the removal of Supers. And I was around when BoB was the evil of Eve and Goons were the good guys... Then we all learned differently once BoB was gone.
As plain as I can explain it, your idea simply will not work. Smaller Alliances will NEVER be competitive against much larger ones NO MATTER WHAT ship types are in the game, period. That is all. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 00:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:Quote:You really are butt-hurt about Goons. Get over it. No one cares that some big, bad fleet touched you in a place the sun don't shine. If some big group of dudes want to use caps and you're afraid of Goons, get a spy and avoid being dropped altogether. If you want to play with the big boys, you gotta play like the big boys.
No, I'm using Goons as an example because they are EXACTLY the type of Alliance that stands in the way of the smaller Alliances that YOU hope to help with the removal of Supers. And I was around when BoB was the evil of Eve and Goons were the good guys... Then we all learned differently once BoB was gone. As plain as I can explain it, your idea simply will not work. Smaller Alliances will NEVER be competitive against much larger ones NO MATTER WHAT ship types are in the game, period.
I will stop arguing with you as you obviously don't see the bigger picture. I'd suggest you save yourself plenty of heartache and continue running missions/incursions in high sec. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
510
|
Posted - 2013.05.12 21:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:remove supers and swarms of regular carriers will bloat out your sun. nothing solved Regular carriers can easily be killed by Dreads, no matter how many you have in fleet. RZR cant kill anything at all to begin with, crawl back under goons skirt.. |
|
Enidan Lost
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
DeLindsay wrote:No, I'm using Goons as an example because they are EXACTLY the type of Alliance that stands in the way of the smaller Alliances that YOU hope to help with the removal of Supers. And I was around when BoB was the evil of Eve and Goons were the good guys... Then we all learned differently once BoB was gone.
As plain as I can explain it, your idea simply will not work. Smaller Alliances will NEVER be competitive against much larger ones NO MATTER WHAT ship types are in the game, period.
yo bro, he never mentioned smaller alliances in his startpost. so why do you come up with that **** all day long??
@tib: u mad bro? |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 14:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sadly i think CCP have invested too much into them to simply agree to remove them. But at the same time it's difficult to see how they can ever really be put into proper balance.
Unless they are massively powerful they have no valuable.
But
If they are massively powerful there are too many which can be put into a overpowered concentrated force.
it's a shame, cos the early days of titans where pretty awsome, and it was a ship that struck fear into players. now there are hundreds of them, it's hard to be taken seriously if you can't field them. |
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 15:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
I doubt CCP will ever just remove Titans and Supercarriers, but they do need a very comprehensive rebalance pass. |
Marcus Junius
Nephilim Ordo
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Remove them all then reseed so only one of each type can exist.
Make them a unique item in which only one can exist at any given time.
|
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1251
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Marcus Junius wrote:Remove them all then reseed so only one of each type can exist.
Make them a unique item in which only one can exist at any given time.
And then when PL have all eight of them... |
Khan Farshatok
Dedicated Individuals Conditioned to Kill B O R G
9
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 16:38:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:
I want to bring back Dreadnought slugfeasts and the days when Carriers were considered something amazing. .
the only reason i support this is because of this one single line in his entire thread
|
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
100
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 17:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think the game needs fleet jump hull such as titan. But perhaps titans could be repurposed just as that make tham normal capitals lower their size less EHP than dreads but still capable to jump fleet and use DD. Also reduce the requirements and cost of course.
I think such oversized hull idea as titan cant really go any other way than wrong. Any MMO should have anything that just one can have. Few perhaps but how the titan concept is now its not really working out. Other discussions: Racial systems balancing and homogenization Bounty contracts |
Marcus Junius
Nephilim Ordo
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 17:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Marcus Junius wrote:Remove them all then reseed so only one of each type can exist.
Make them a unique item in which only one can exist at any given time.
And then when PL have all eight of them...
Far less of an issue that what we have now.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:Sadly i think CCP have invested too much into them to simply agree to remove them. But at the same time it's difficult to see how they can ever really be put into proper balance.
Unless they are massively powerful they have no valuable.
But
If they are massively powerful there are too many which can be put into a overpowered concentrated force.
it's a shame, cos the early days of titans where pretty awsome, and it was a ship that struck fear into players. now there are hundreds of them, it's hard to be taken seriously if you can't field them.
The key really is in the nature of the deployment - currently they can hit and run at will more or less and one super/titan can die all on its own unsupported to a sub capital fleet (quite often what happens the odd times one does die). When a super/titan is deployed it should stimulate gameplay - be a catalyst for further warfare.
On a related note, somewhat prompted by EVR - I do miss the whole "launching fighters" aspect of many movies, etc. when it comes to super deployment.
I've got a rough, completely off the wall concept in my head of facilities dotted around highsec that you can dock at as an NPC corp player, buy what is essentially a "fighter frig" wait in a queue to be bridged out to support a super in waves as though launched from it (obviously the idea would need a lot more development than that - none the least you'd be waiting quite awhile at the moment) |
Xeros Black
Forced Penetration Here Be Dragons
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
I have always thought that jump portals was a silly thing its one of those OP aspects of the game you can move huge forces with very little risk to the titan pilot in question.. My thought is make carriers/supers carry ships to combat instead of jump portals. (so ships dock with carriers and then undock when the jump is complete) I agree with the poster that mentioned that capital ships should be able to move themselves (which will never happen because CCP makes too much money off cyno alts)..
As for titans and supers being removed from the game i disagree i think you could balance both ships out pretty well just by removing their EWAR immunity. I never have agreed with anything in eve being immune to another effect in eve it doesn't make sense resistant but not immunity and this includes ships in triage and siege mode. If you balanced supers and titans to have a base warp strength of say 10+ and a sensor strength of 200+.
It seems to me like the last bit to balance supers and titans out would be an anti-capital ship counter something like a stealth bomber only anti titan / super. Maybe a Cruiser class ship that equips capital sized torps. Something a carrier could take out easy with a 10 hammer heads but would be less vulnerable to titan and fighter bomber tracking. They should be expensive though maybe 200-500 mil for a cruiser class ship extra specialized |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
256
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:38:00 -
[31] - Quote
Xeros Black wrote: It seems to me like the last bit to balance supers and titans out would be an anti-capital ship counter something like a stealth bomber only anti titan / super. Maybe a Cruiser class ship that equips capital sized torps. Something a carrier could take out easy with a 10 hammer heads but would be less vulnerable to titan and fighter bomber tracking. They should be expensive though maybe 200-500 mil for a cruiser class ship extra specialized
I'm not a fan of specialised ships designed purely to take out high end ships that people have spent a long time training and getting into unless they also take as much investment.
I think the main balancing factor should be that they can't be evacuated off the field as quickly and easily as they are now and using one in a fight is somewhat a proper commitment. Personally I think they should go into a reinforced mode once they've taken a certain amount of damage so that it is a catalyst for further fighting - I die a little inside when I see a capital die all on its own unsupported to a gank fleet. |
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:40:00 -
[32] - Quote
One proposal for Titans that I've thrown out in a couple of threads like this in the past is to require a Titan at either end of the jump bridge to send ships through. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:24:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:First of all, I'm a Supercapital pilot. I own an Avatar and a Nyx.
Remove them from the game.
- Reprocess ships and place all minerals in "Redeemable Items" based on ME 0 Titan/Supercarrier BPO - Refund all skillbook costs & refund skillpoints - Place character in home station.
The Supercapital problem will not improve by simply nerfing these ships into uselessness as CCP has intended to do. My Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.
- The power of the Doomsday is fine as it is, but when you look at the numbers of Titans owned by any one corporation/alliance, it is unbalanced. When an alliance can drop 50 titans on an opposing fleet, there is something terribly wrong.
- I don't want to bring tracking titans back. This was a stupid mechanic and far too easy to make subcapital fleets inferior.
I want to bring back Dreadnought slugfeasts and the days when Carriers were considered something amazing. Remove Supercapitals from the game completely.
This will go a long way to balancing the game and giving newer alliances the chance to succeed. I'm sort of in the mindset that mega-large supercap fleets (like the ones PL is fond of dropping) does hurt the overall gameplay, especially considering the effect TiDi has on Capital movements into a fight. (Shadoo is quoted as saying that with TiDi, no fight is too far away to bring the full cap fleet to bear.)
I don't think the solution would be to remove Supercaps, though. It wouldn't fit Eve. And although the power creep associated with Alliances having fleets of supers to drop into a battle is horrendous, the best solution--the one that gives smaller alliances at least some sort of chance would be to install some sort of mass limits on ships that cyno into the system per time period.
Not an overall mass, mind you, since that'd just lead to supers being deployed like drones when one goes down. It'd have to be an overarching "mass limit" on the cyno jumps into the system per time period. Once the cyno limit is reached (either through traditional bridging of subcaps or by cap or supercap jumps, the system is unable to take more mass via cynos for a given cooldown period.
I think another way to redistribute some of the supers' power is to require a titan on both ends to bridge a fleet in. This would mean that titan pilots would have to commit their ships to the fray or the support fleet couldn't just be magically "beamed" into battle.
Yes, this is a very "wormhole" way of looking at the ever-increasing supercap buildup problem, but the only way for fights to happen is to have some semblance of order. I know in a wormhole fight, for example, that the amount of Dreads that can come through that hole--indeed the amount of anything--is limited, so I can somewhat forecast what we may face even in the worst of times. Simply put, a small-to-medium alliance with moderate combat assets won't commit to a fight where they think "yeah we can probably take those two titans or supers" if there is a constant threat of PL dumping 70 supers in the battle and utterly obliterating them. It's not worth the whelp, especially considering that a supercarrier can deploy 12500 dps without having to commit to a siege timer or anything. If they going gets tough, they can cyno out. If the going gets tough for a dread or carrier, too bad. They're stuck there for 5 minutes. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
185
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
Xeros Black wrote:I have always thought that jump portals was a silly thing its one of those OP aspects of the game you can move huge forces with very little risk to the titan pilot in question... This is very true. It should be that smaller fleets are more mobile and can move more quickly vs large fleets that should move slowly. In fact, it's quite the opposite: the more wealth and power you have, the easier it is to move around. This is backward. There should be room for guerrilla tactics.
|
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 21:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Xeros Black wrote:I have always thought that jump portals was a silly thing its one of those OP aspects of the game you can move huge forces with very little risk to the titan pilot in question... This is very true. It should be that smaller fleets are more mobile and can move more quickly vs large fleets that should move slowly. In fact, it's quite the opposite: the more wealth and power you have, the easier it is to move around. This is backward. There should be room for guerrilla tactics.
I think there needs to be a balance though. Wealthy alliances and coalitions should also be able to put massive amounts of resources behind an operation to move ships quickly. The problem right now is that there is little risk associated with Titan bridges. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 21:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bump cuz this still needs to be addressed. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
165
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 22:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
Limiting something like titans would not be too difficult... but it would be impossible to insure they stay distributed without some very funky rules on how they are limited.
For instance, you could tie them to SOV, and allow x amount per whatever metric you like--moons mined, systems owned, etc... but sooner or later someone would gain the upper hand and own them all.
Something I like better is to actually buff them more, but give them an absolutely ruinous fuel cost to move them--- you get them where you want them, and they park there until another couple freighter loads of fuel arrive to allow them to move again. They become reinforced positions in space, and seeing one jump in would be headline news as you know it took the total fuel production of the alliance a week or more to get it there, and now it cannot even move from it's current location without more fuel.
Combined with a similar fuel cost for opening bridges, or only allowing Titans to be the end point of a bridge and making it a structure that opens them would limit those shenanigans. Alternatively, add a module with high fitting costs to allow jumps on regular hulls to keep the strategic mobility but force a trade off for it. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
647
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 17:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
All I got from this thread was "lower the amount of supercaps in game"
Simple, put a station realated tax on them, VOILA
BUT BUT BUT.
Why its never going to hapten? Im sorry I cant discus this because not only will CCP be Peed off but many old vets looking to quit.
Supercaps are the driving force for those players playing the game for 7+ years, take the force away and we end up with WoW and who knows what else.
the change would be so big, not in the form of big ships being removed but literally hearts broken.
Keep these crappy ships in the game, their just crappy, my naglfar does 1500 DPS and Im just bashing myself for ever going full ******, training for and getting any kind of capital ship. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
45
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:All I got from this thread was "lower the amount of supercaps in game"
Simple, put a station realated tax on them, VOILA
BUT BUT BUT.
Why its never going to hapten? Im sorry I cant discus this because not only will CCP be Peed off but many old vets looking to quit.
Supercaps are the driving force for those players playing the game for 7+ years, take the force away and we end up with WoW and who knows what else.
the change would be so big, not in the form of big ships being removed but literally hearts broken.
Keep these crappy ships in the game, their just crappy, my naglfar does 1500 DPS and Im just bashing myself for ever going full ******, training for and getting any kind of capital ship.
"Remove Titans & Supercarrier" |
Tilly Delnero
Licorne Ventures Ltd.
17
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 18:32:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:The Supercapital problem will not improve by simply nerfing these ships into uselessness as CCP has intended to do. My Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.
- The power of the Doomsday is fine as it is, but when you look at the numbers of Titans owned by any one corporation/alliance, it is unbalanced. When an alliance can drop 50 titans on an opposing fleet, there is something terribly wrong.
- I don't want to bring tracking titans back. This was a stupid mechanic and far too easy to make subcapital fleets inferior.
I want to bring back Dreadnought slugfeasts and the days when Carriers were considered something amazing. Remove Supercapitals from the game completely. I agree, NERF PL!
On a serious note, there are also plenty of people who want all capitals removed and want to revert to the days of old where battleships were the dominant heavy combat platform. Times change, capitals and supercapitals are part of the game and many alliance logistics and (IMHO) should remain so. Removing titans means removing bridging, and that would be a nerf too far for many people (unless POS bridges didn't require sov anymore). It would also make large, well-piloted pantheon/slowcat carrier fleets virtually indestructible, since the only real way to kill those is via massive alpha (doomsday) unless you happen to have a ridiculous number of dreads at hand. In which case people would complain about the number of dreads.
IIRC supercaps were a response to this type of capital escalation. If anything should be done about their proliferation, personally I'd like to see something more along the lines of supercapitals being subject to some form of ongoing tax like the alliance/sov system. Not necessarily ISK-based though. Maybe for the mechanics to treat them as a corp/alliance asset rather than a ship - perhaps even have ongoing fuel costs like a POS while they are online/in use?
Whatever happens, I'd like to see supers reclaiming their 'special' status as end-game goals and something unique people really go 'OOH' at when they see them. At the moment they're far too common and lack anything that makes them really stand out. Except titan bridges, which are awesome.
|
|
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
305
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
I'm sure there's a place for Supers and Titans. Maybe if they increased the cost of Supercarriers 4x and titans by 2x, and gave Titans a buff that would make them super rare yet justified for the price? Supers are too cheap. |
Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
45
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Shadow Lord77 wrote:I'm sure there's a place for Supers and Titans. Maybe if they increased the cost of Supercarriers 4x and titans by 2x, and gave Titans a buff that would make them super rare yet justified for the price? Supers are too cheap.
At this point price will not balance them, a large monthly upkeep cost may be helpful though, since it is the ever increasing nubers that people find offensive. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
264
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 21:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
Shadow Lord77 wrote:I'm sure there's a place for Supers and Titans. Maybe if they increased the cost of Supercarriers 4x and titans by 2x, and gave Titans a buff that would make them super rare yet justified for the price? Supers are too cheap. The cost really isn't the limiting factor. It's the fact that Eve is an over-time game combined with the fact that Super fleets--like those famed ones PL likes to drop--just don't get "used up." So, you have a situation where, over time, alliances build supers and distribute them with very little attrition. Without attrition, the game begins to suffer the sort of "supercap overpopulation" problem that its facing now.
I hate to say that arbitrary limits are the solution, but they are one possible solution. Limit the amount of Supers that are available in a battle, and one side may drop theirs, knowing that the maximum opposing force (supplied by supers) will be limited. I know there's a similar thought to wormhole space battles in that we know the maximum number of Dreads/Carriers that could theoretically be brought by one side or another, and knowing that risk helps us to decide to risk assets (since it's not just going to be an automatic wipe-fest).
Other than some spur to start super attrition, there's really nothing to stop the constant build-up and disuse of them. Hence, some sort of limit (cyno/jump bridge) limits would at least be somewhat effective, at least until an actual rebalance pass on supers can be made. And please no one think that I'm trying to limit the sizes of fights, since you can jump in all the subcaps you want the old fashioned way through a gate. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
If you make them more expensive it will still only be a matter of time before everyone gets them.
To be honest, I wouldn't see a problem if they made them 1/4 their current cost and 1/4 the EHP with the same bonuses/damage. This would make them easy to kill but also easy to replace.
Another thing, be able to build them in low-sec. This would allow smaller alliances to gain super capital power.
.......
Sounds pretty complicated, but I still think removing them is the best bet. |
Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice R O G U E
55
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 19:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:First of all, I'm a Supercapital pilot. I own an Avatar and a Nyx.
Remove them from the game.
- Reprocess ships and place all minerals in "Redeemable Items" based on ME 0 Titan/Supercarrier BPO - Refund all skillbook costs & refund skillpoints - Place character in home station.
The Supercapital problem will not improve by simply nerfing these ships into uselessness as CCP has intended to do. My Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.
- The power of the Doomsday is fine as it is, but when you look at the numbers of Titans owned by any one corporation/alliance, it is unbalanced. When an alliance can drop 50 titans on an opposing fleet, there is something terribly wrong.
- I don't want to bring tracking titans back. This was a stupid mechanic and far too easy to make subcapital fleets inferior.
I want to bring back Dreadnought slugfeasts and the days when Carriers were considered something amazing. Remove Supercapitals from the game completely.
This will go a long way to balancing the game and giving newer alliances the chance to succeed.
QFT Think it would be much cooler to see varieties of standard capitol ships and dreads than Titan/Scaps.
I would just say that the Titan/Scap hulls could be scaled down and reapplied for other on-the-field roles (literally, the visual hulls so they are not just "deleted" from the game). There are a lot of creative people who had posted things like Scout Carriers etc, too. Heck, maybe we could see Science Carriers and other whatnots too.
But yes, I think it would be a smart move. It is pretty much so that anybody who has more superduper ship wins - if we could break that ice and somehow spread the power across the board of new Dreads/Carriers, the territorial gameplay could become more interesting rather than just tossing in the few yet overpowered vessels. Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
49
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 07:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bump because Titans and Supers are still in game! |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 12:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
(@ original post) Hm, I'm working on a set of changes that would fix a lot of stuff ((a) boring structure shooting, (b) instapopping being all the fleet commander facilitates with some small unit-specific roles sprinkled on top, (c) not being able to feel like you're putting up a fight when dropped by huge fleets (you want to go out in a blaze of glory where you feel you did more than most would be able to), (d) active tanks having so low buffers they pop before the second and third rep cycle hits, and (e) the inherent SP cap which often has old players training stuff they won't really use while (f) the new players have a year of capacitor cap, capacitor recharge, shield HP, armor HP, agility, hull HP, etc, to train before they get properly competitive in whatever ship they wish to fly, and (g) also people are carbon-copies of each other because everyone has the same skills. Having everyone be the same is a lame but easy way to balance the game, but there are other options). Good games from real life allows players to adjust in accordance with conditions, this is what I want to incorporate into Eve. I'll spend a few days thinking about this problem also to see if I can incorporate something that fixes it in my set of changes. But could you come with some specific points which are the problems with Titans and supercarriers? Others are welcome to add points also. |
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
786
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 16:03:00 -
[48] - Quote
If you could use supers without being under threat of being dropped on by someone with MORE supers then I don't think it would be that big of a deal.
Make supers use stargates and reduce there align time by a lot.
Also make titan jump bridges work backwards, make it so you can use a pos mounted jump bridge to jump to a titan, and let the titan connect to a jump bridge.
Now your titan is a mobile beachhaed in enemy space, maybe it could go into an anchored deathstar mode or something. Now you only need a few titans for sov warfare and they act more like your fleets true flagship. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1257
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 19:43:00 -
[49] - Quote
If you remove the Super part from them they would be ok to keep in game. Basically nerf the EHP down to standard capital levels, remove the invulnerability to E-war, reduce the price and construction time, just all around bring them down to normal capital levels. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 20:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Hm, What we really have is a problem of escalation. All alliances are reluctant to escalate into supers and titans because that's what could be their downfall, losing a bunch of supers. Not because they don't have the resources to replace them, but because they only have as many supers as they have people to babysit them. They can't dock in any stations. So you alone can not have ten and bring them in to a fight one after the other like battleships. Supers require sitting alts and so you only have as many supers as you have alts. And while you have the resources to build ten Titans more right away, you don't have the alts for that. But since you must wait a month for a new Titan if you lose the one you have, you are reluctant to fight with the titan in an even fight. Because the enemy would know you lost your super and however many other supers, and then take advantage of that month taking territory.
I think making supers able to dock in particular huge stations would help, then they could have lots of supers and bring them in one after the other like battleships and triage carriers. Then the resources now built up as parts for supers, ready to put them together, would be put together, and we'd have lots of supers that can be brought in one by one to die in a jiffy. |
|
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
462
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 20:57:00 -
[51] - Quote
Add a mobile cyno jammer to titans. Make it similar to the one for FW where it cant be constant thus titans will be committed to fights as there is less fear of "escalation", so then you kill them by having enough on grid to kill them before the cyno jammer finishes.
Or for real fun, make the pos fuel idea true but when it runs out boom! the self destruct is activated and you better have some more fuel! Suddenly the proliferation slows as now you have to make sure they are fed, at a rate I would say equal to 100 blocks an hour. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 21:08:00 -
[52] - Quote
NEONOVUS (Novus like in that game?) I remind you that ships being destroyed is what makes the economy go, so that's the solution to capitals, make the players destroy more of them by daring to fly them even when its not a sure victory. Cyno jammers would just ensure they'd be even more careful on top of being careful because constructing supercaps take so long (the parts can be stacked mile high and are produced almost continually, but it takes so very long to put the parts together, and when you have the parts together you need someone to sit in it all the time, otherwise anyone could go up to it and take it). |
Vendictus Prime
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 23:05:00 -
[53] - Quote
Honestly, the best argument for removing Supers was the recent grind accomplished by PL, Nulli and NC. after losing their renters sov. Less than 2 days and they ground 200+ systems due to the use of supers.
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:If you make them more expensive it will still only be a matter of time before everyone gets them.
To be honest, I wouldn't see a problem if they made them 1/4 their current cost and 1/4 the EHP with the same bonuses/damage. This would make them easy to kill but also easy to replace.
.
I agree that cutting their EHP would be a good start as well as their ecm invulnerability and while I was reading this forum I thought of, what if you limited any Titan and Supers jump ability to only systems you own SOV in as well as a limit on the number in a given system. 1 maybe 2 titans to a system and less than 10 total supers at any given time. With the EHP nerf and ecm vulnerability that makes fleets of subcaps able to kill the bigger ships. The SOV ownership issue would affect low sec, but I really do not see why they need to be there either. You have to own SOV to build them, why not restrict them solely to Null and limit how many can be in any specific location at all times.
An invading group would have to establish a beachhead with subcaps if they want to bring in their supers and titans which require them taking control of a specific system with TCU's and or SBU's. Add some more mechanics to also not make the new features to benefit one side or the other. Titans and Supers would then be a limited defenses tool only.
These ideas are very very preliminary and are designed to be expanded on and /or reworked from this forums contributors. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.07.12 23:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vendictus Prime wrote:Honestly, the best argument for removing Supers was the recent grind accomplished by PL, Nulli and NC. after losing their renters sov. Less than 2 days and they ground 200+ systems due to the use of supers. Tiberu Stundrif wrote:If you make them more expensive it will still only be a matter of time before everyone gets them.
To be honest, I wouldn't see a problem if they made them 1/4 their current cost and 1/4 the EHP with the same bonuses/damage. This would make them easy to kill but also easy to replace.
. I agree that cutting their EHP would be a good start as well as their ecm invulnerability and while I was reading this forum I thought of, what if you limited any Titan and Supers jump ability to only systems you own SOV in as well as a limit on the number in a given system. 1 maybe 2 titans to a system and less than 10 total supers at any given time. With the EHP nerf and ecm vulnerability that makes fleets of subcaps able to kill the bigger ships. The SOV ownership issue would affect low sec, but I really do not see why they need to be there either. You have to own SOV to build them, why not restrict them solely to Null and limit how many can be in any specific location at all times. An invading group would have to establish a beachhead with subcaps if they want to bring in their supers and titans which require them taking control of a specific system with TCU's and or SBU's. Add some more mechanics to also not make the new features to benefit one side or the other. Titans and Supers would then be a limited defenses tool only. These ideas are very very preliminary and are designed to be expanded on and /or reworked from this forums contributors. The problem is not killing them, but getting the enemy to commit them to battle when you might win. If you might win, they don't commit them to the battle. Making them easier to kill would just worsen this. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
462
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 02:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:NEONOVUS (Novus like in that game?) I remind you that ships being destroyed is what makes the economy go, so that's the solution to capitals, make the players destroy more of them by daring to fly them even when its not a sure victory. Cyno jammers would just ensure they'd be even more careful on top of being careful because constructing supercaps take so long (the parts can be stacked mile high and are produced almost continually, but it takes so very long to put the parts together, and when you have the parts together you need someone to sit in it all the time, otherwise anyone could go up to it and take it). cyno jammers cut both ways and prevent all reinforcements. Of course if you happen to have a hic and a fleet.... But yeah the idea is embolden the pilots so they come out more, right now deaths canbe attributed to awoxing and really not much else, there is no screw it send in the supers as with bcs and even t3s instead you have people utterly freaked at the concept of putting them in anything but we win or leave there is no die also what game? |
Jinli mei
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
135
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vendictus Prime wrote:Honestly, the best argument for removing Supers was the recent grind accomplished by PL, Nulli and NC. after losing their renters sov. Less than 2 days and they ground 200+ systems due to the use of supers.
While we're at it, using this example we should make spying and metagaming a bannable offense because it dropped 200+ systems without the use of any ships. (See how silly that sounds?)
This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win." |
Prelate Hucel-Ge
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
25
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:17:00 -
[57] - Quote
Oh, what's that? You spent how many years hoarding all of that Tech ISK and you still can't achieve supercap superiority over Pandemic Legion and Northern CoalitionDOT in the Fountain War? Too bad, so sad. Maybe you should use your supers once in a while and you wouldn't have people unsubbing their titans/supers due to sheer boredom. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:30:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jinli mei wrote: This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."
I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game. |
Prelate Hucel-Ge
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
25
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Jinli mei wrote: This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."
I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game. Name three people that actually matter and quote where they said this. :allears: |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 04:43:00 -
[60] - Quote
Prelate Hucel-Ge wrote:Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Jinli mei wrote: This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."
I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game. Name three people that actually matter and quote where they said this. :allears:
Why would I go on a quote-hunt to appease someone who obviously doesn't understand how much supers impact the game in a negative way? |
|
supernova ranger
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 05:06:00 -
[61] - Quote
If CCP would introduce subsystems to capitals they'd become vulnerable to subcapitals.
They mentioned in one of the fanfests about this being what they wanted to come out of T3 but instead we got those cruisers. Don't get me wrong, the cruisers are great but are also nothing compared to being able to target individual parts of the ship.
I don't see anything in this thread referring to this... It doesn't fix the power projection problems of jump bridges but does provide a bridge to bring back sub-capital / capital / super-capital battle royal. I could even see them giving the ships more firepower and tanking with exploitable vulnerabilities like that. |
Prelate Hucel-Ge
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
25
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 06:00:00 -
[62] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Prelate Hucel-Ge wrote:Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Jinli mei wrote: This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."
I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game. Name three people that actually matter and quote where they said this. :allears: Why would I go on a quote-hunt to appease someone who obviously doesn't understand how much supers impact the game in a negative way? Why should I waste my time explaining why you're wrong when you're in the coalition that has no clue on how to use supercaptials effectively and safely? Hint: safely doesn't mean "never use them". |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 08:41:00 -
[63] - Quote
Prelate Hucel-Ge wrote: Why should I waste my time explaining why you're wrong when you're in the coalition that has no clue on how to use supercaptials effectively and safely? Hint: safely doesn't mean "never use them".
I'm just going to leave this here... http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18611012
Just because PL and NCdot may be helping your alliance while it huddles in low-sec, does not mean Supers & Titans are therefore awesome and shouldn't be removed.
Thankfully, there are plenty of us that play the long-game, actually own supers/titans and realize how they simply don't fit into this game. |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
7
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:08:00 -
[64] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Ronny Hugo wrote:NEONOVUS (Novus like in that game?) I remind you that ships being destroyed is what makes the economy go, so that's the solution to capitals, make the players destroy more of them by daring to fly them even when its not a sure victory. Cyno jammers would just ensure they'd be even more careful on top of being careful because constructing supercaps take so long (the parts can be stacked mile high and are produced almost continually, but it takes so very long to put the parts together, and when you have the parts together you need someone to sit in it all the time, otherwise anyone could go up to it and take it). cyno jammers cut both ways and prevent all reinforcements. Of course if you happen to have a hic and a fleet.... But yeah the idea is embolden the pilots so they come out more, right now deaths canbe attributed to awoxing and really not much else, there is no screw it send in the supers as with bcs and even t3s instead you have people utterly freaked at the concept of putting them in anything but we win or leave there is no die also what game?
"there is no screw it send in the supers" - Exactly. Supers are only sent in when its more or less a sure thing, and the enemy knows this, so they know their chance of winning by your willingness to escalate, which also provides a further mechanic that prevents people from committing supers to battles. If the supers could be stacked mile high in station like everything else then we would not have this problem, each super pilot who can lose a super would be out taking more risks with his super.
Nevermind, it was this game where a civilization called the novus kicked butt on Earth.
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Jinli mei wrote: This entire thread screams "move the goal post closer, I can't win."
I'm pretty sure many PL/NCdot super pilots agree with me on this. Removing them from game is really the only option for fixing a game mechanic broken the moment supers were introduced to this game. It is not the only mechanic that would fix supers. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
34
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Does this mean we can allow capitals back in high-sec? |
Galphii
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
168
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 11:47:00 -
[66] - Quote
As we've witnessed from the industrial ship tiericide, CCP are reluctant to remove ships from the game entirely. I wouldn't mind seeing tiericide on the carriers so that 'supercarriers' become 'assault carriers'. You know, shrink the model, make them like current carriers but with no logi ability and able to use fighter bombers (10-15 max tho). Give a choice between the current (logi) carriers and something to thump big ships with.
As for titans... ugh. I have no idea what could be done to make these 'balanced'. Take away bridging and reduce their cost to compensate maybe? Removal sounds more... humane. X |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2399
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 15:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
no.
Can i haz your stuff? Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Phee Phi PhoPhum
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.13 16:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote: Avatar is a giant logistics cannon and mobile jump bridge. It is a 80-100 billion ISK sink that simply isn't worth what it is intended for.
There is plenty you can be doing with that titan.
This guys gets it http://zkillboard.com/detail/31885989/
This guy too http://zkillboard.com/detail/26155560/
So shush. Get busy!
|
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2013.07.14 07:01:00 -
[69] - Quote
Galphii wrote:As we've witnessed from the industrial ship tiericide, CCP are reluctant to remove ships from the game entirely. I wouldn't mind seeing tiericide on the carriers so that 'supercarriers' become 'assault carriers'. You know, shrink the model, make them like current carriers but with no logi ability and able to use fighter bombers (10-15 max tho). Give a choice between the current (logi) carriers and something to thump big ships with.
Needing their ability to fit remote reps would be interesting for sure. Remove the remote reps and force carriers to support them. This would then essentially be a dreadnaught without a siege timer. Every way you look at it there needs to be something more taken from them. Simply removing them from the game still seems to be the only complete option per my OP. |
supernova ranger
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
44
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 03:44:00 -
[70] - Quote
I still think that adding target-able capital subsystems and keeping capitals nerfed in a way that lets them fire only on enemy capitals but also provide significant boosts to sub-cap performance would fix the problems you are seeing.
It's because capitals don't need sub-capitals to survive that we are having an issue... Me thinks at least... |
|
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 07:45:00 -
[71] - Quote
supernova ranger wrote:I still think that adding target-able capital subsystems and keeping capitals nerfed in a way that lets them fire only on enemy capitals but also provide significant boosts to sub-cap performance would fix the problems you are seeing.
It's because capitals don't need sub-capitals to survive that we are having an issue... Me thinks at least...
This is not a discussion about capitals, this is a discussion about the removal of supercarriers and titans. |
Siri Exotic
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.17 15:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
That's a tough one.
I've trained for years to fly them, I've still never stepped foot in one and can't be bothered to relegate an a character to logging out in one never to see the confines of a station again.
I saw a fleet of them once when in IT Alliance and was awstruck. (they are still aweinspiring when seen) ..but at the same time made me realize that they are supposed to be the pinnacle of the game and a way of showing massive dedication and team work to obtain just one, more than 1 seems excessive, more than 2 says to me something went wrong with the planck bubble generator....
they are too easy to obtain, and too unentertaining to fight against.
Lock them all in a wormhole system and close the holes for ever. |
Bryperium
RAZOR Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 13:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
A few thoughts:
-I'm not sure the market could likely not sustain such a large infusion of minerals if carried out as per the OP.
-This would likely proliferate the usage of t1 capitals on all scales of k-space fights. Though I love flying triage carriers and dreads in small gangs during the late USTZ, I'd rather not see them become more common then they already are.
-The evidence of the perceived issues super capitals cause is anecdotal. EVE was last free of capitals half a decade ago, and it is a far different game today then it was then.
-These ships are one of the last Representatives of the advantages of a faction holding ISK in the null sec game. You could make this argument for SRP as well, though I find that pilots can easily replace most sub-supercapital ships when motivated to do so.
The only thing I realistically see as an issue is the alleged over proliferation, But at the end of the day this is a pseudo sandbox game and I'd be more interested in the players reactions and adoptions then CCP's direct intervention. a¦á_a¦á |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1305
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 14:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
i'm kind of new to the discussion, so please pardon my na+»vet+¬. the way i see it, the main problem with supercaps is that they are built way faster than they explode. yes, they are difficult to kill but it's not impossible. if we were to limit the ability to actually build them, wouldn't this also fix the problem in the long run? (yes, i am aware that there are arguably too many of them in the game already.)
the first proposal that comes to mind would be to have the hulls produced by NPCs at a constant rate and then auctioned to the highest bidder. to keep the mineral sink, you could have the hulls "half-finished" and in need of costly upgrades which are necessary for anything but mere navigation.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death
108
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 15:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dyslike compensation from SC removal, just remove as is. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1306
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 23:25:00 -
[76] - Quote
i'll just bump this because i'd really like to know the problem with what i posted above *bump*
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Bryperium
RAZOR Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 00:11:00 -
[77] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:i'll just bump this because i'd really like to know the problem with what i posted above *bump*
I think it is a good idea (though I'd personally have npc's sell "certifications" of the hull to allow them to be launched from the CSAA instead),
But the most recent QEN has shown that the actual active super population of the game has been pretty consistent (actually falling slightly) as of late due to pilot's tendency to buy their shiny then burn out & log off, never too be seen again, in addition too an always increasing number of older players with said ships going inactive.
I may welcome such measures if we start to see the active supercapital population spike out of control, alongside production, but it seems possible that CCP has plans in place for this already (drone goo nerf for example?). - |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1306
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 11:43:00 -
[78] - Quote
Bryperium wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:i'll just bump this because i'd really like to know the problem with what i posted above *bump* I think it is a good idea (though I'd personally have npc's sell "certifications" of the hull to allow them to be launched from the CSAA instead), But the most recent QEN has shown that the actual active super population of the game has been pretty consistent (actually falling slightly) as of late due to pilot's tendency to buy their shiny then burn out & log off, never too be seen again, in addition too an always increasing number of older players with said ships going inactive. I may welcome such measures if we start to see the active supercapital population spike out of control, alongside production, but it seems possible that CCP has plans in place for this already (drone goo nerf for example?). well, our short term goal is to reduce the amount of supers, so if people burn out and leave and production is highly limited then that also fixes the problem. also, imagine coming back to eve after 5 years and realizing that your titan is now one of ~20 of its kind and worth trillions :D
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
7
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 11:57:00 -
[79] - Quote
Better introduce more T2 anti-capships in Destroyer size. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1306
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 12:23:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:Better introduce more T2 anti-capships in Destroyer size. you mean like stealth bombers with citadel launchers? that would be fun....
edit: except you have to make sure they are not abused for structure grinding. wouldn't want a fleet worth 200mil grind a large pos in under 15 minutes, now would we?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
|
fazeley
Empire Assault Corp Dead Terrorists
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 12:49:00 -
[81] - Quote
Xavier Thorm wrote:One proposal for Titans that I've thrown out in a couple of threads like this in the past is to require a Titan at either end of the jump bridge to send ships through.
Not often I am minded to post, but this is a great idea. It's always seemed odd to me that titan's may use their key ability whilst exposing themselves to no risk at all.
|
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
465
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 15:03:00 -
[82] - Quote
Why not add it so titans and supercap weapons can only be used on caps or biggers like with the DD? Then you can balance them amongst each other instead of having to deal with loki webs blap titans and so on? This way caps can blap BS with effective many man setups but then promptly get eaten like a plate of cupcakes made of bacon and steak by titans and supercaps where titans and supercaps get eaten by subcaps. Thus you end up with the triangle of power |
Tel Perion
Hazy Services Incorporated
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 15:57:00 -
[83] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:First of all, I'm a Supercapital pilot. I own an Avatar and a Nyx.
Remove them from the game.
I understand your reasoning for removing them from the game but why waste the artwork? Surely the reason you're advocating removing them from the game is because they're overpowered in combat and don't fit with the rock,paper,scissors,lizard,spock approach which is taken in the rest of the game?
Assuming this to be the case, why not just repurpose them instead so their primary role is a non-combat role? |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 18:32:00 -
[84] - Quote
Time to REMOVE Supers and Titans from the game. +1 my OP if you agree! |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
61
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 21:16:00 -
[85] - Quote
i would hate to see them go. i just wish there was a way to make them rarer and more valuable again. Something that coulodnt be abused by every major alliance/coalition. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
467
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:51:00 -
[86] - Quote
Rowells wrote:i would hate to see them go. i just wish there was a way to make them rarer and more valuable again. Something that coulodnt be abused by every major alliance/coalition. Scatter them adrift in space, set number. Have fun scanning for them everywhere, oh and try not to lose them, because CCP aint setting anymore adrift after whupping PL. |
Onocron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 15:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
What the game needs is a _serious_ nerf to jump range
What will become worse if the jump range is cut to one thirds of current jump range? Or what is so bad about limiting jump range to 3 systems for _any_ capital?
They will still be awesome IF you get them on-site, but you it will be way harder to instablob entire new-eden via a bunch of midpoints.
It will give way more windows of opportunity for smaller alliances to use their capitals, you will see less '50 supercap' drops. etc. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 17:03:00 -
[88] - Quote
How about placing a cap on the total number of Titans available in the sandbox, come up with some crazy lore for it.
The Titans that do exist should be in...more or less broadcasted.... systems or constellations, so that you can look on your map and see where they are. If your alliance wants to build one, you have to go blow up an existing.
And +1 for CCP not allowing any more to be built for a while (even ever); sounds better than what's happening right now. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
31
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 17:06:00 -
[89] - Quote
fazeley wrote:Xavier Thorm wrote:One proposal for Titans that I've thrown out in a couple of threads like this in the past is to require a Titan at either end of the jump bridge to send ships through. Not often I am minded to post, but this is a great idea. It's always seemed odd to me that titan's may use their key ability whilst exposing themselves to no risk at all.
+1 for this. Or even the Titan following through the bridge. I really like the "jump tethering" idea someone came up with. |
Tiberu Stundrif
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2013.08.10 12:41:00 -
[90] - Quote
Several decent ideas mentioned here, but none fully address the myriad of issues plaguing this neglected and uber-nerfed ship class.
Remove Supers and Titans from the game. |
|
Tiberu Stundrif
Repercussus RAZOR Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:21:00 -
[91] - Quote
Remove titans and supercarriers from the game!
Let's make it happen! |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
384
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 21:23:00 -
[92] - Quote
Tiberu Stundrif wrote:Remove titans and supercarriers from the game! Let's make it happen! I think they were working on it last night. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Angeal MacNova
XDraconis CombineX
97
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 22:16:00 -
[93] - Quote
Could it be something that can be capped?
Ensure that supers and titans can not be contracted or in any way be sold to, given to or even stolen by anyone. They are built by the corp/alliance and is owned by the corp/alliance. If a pilot ejects from one, only another corp/alliance member (with the skill set) can enter it (think of it like a POS bubble except there is no password to give out to people).
A corp must contain 500 members to be in control of 1 super A corp must contain 1000 members to be in control of 2 supers
A corp can not own more than two supers
An alliance must have a minimum of 5 corps in order to use a titan. Only when each corp in the alliance is in control of (or is capable of controlling) one super can the alliance make one titan. That is 2500 members minimum. Only when the corps in the alliance is in control of (or is capable of controlling) two supers can the alliance make the second titan.
A maximum of 2 titans per alliance.
Numbers subject to adjustment. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.23 23:32:00 -
[94] - Quote
^^ Good luck with that...! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 :: [one page] |