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![Susurrus Synaesthesia Susurrus Synaesthesia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90543832/portrait?size=64)
Susurrus Synaesthesia
Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N
0
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Posted - 2013.05.20 12:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to start a discussion on emergent game play that carebears could undertake. In addition, it is my hope that this post will shed some light on this dynamic that many people seem so obsessed with, and not to beat an already dead horse to a pulp. In the efforts of avoiding the TLDR problems, I'll give you a quick abstract on what I have to say:
EVE is a game based on 'risk vs. reward', without either the game is boring. Carebears and PvPers each need each other, not only economically [which is outside the purview of this post], but psychologically. PvPers provide the 'risk', and Carebears the 'reward'. Keep fighting, keep doing your thing, but stop bitching about it and stop petitioning CCP to remove one or the other. Emergent game play, like the 'burn jita' events is fan-bloody-tastic for the game. Carebears, maybe it is time you fought back in your own way: you form much of the economical backbone of EVE either by generating ISK through missioning or actually producing minerals, modules, ships and other such virtual property. Maybe, since null sec still depends on you, if only [post-odyssey mineral changes] for your delicious tears and money, you could find a way to mess with them...
Let's get one thing out of the way first so this thread doesn't immediately devolve into a 'carebears suck, nullsec blue donut' fight. I encourage carebears and null/low/WH denizens to keep arguing and fighting with each other, in space and on the forums. I also encourage the people who keep encouraging CCP to nerf or remove one or the other from the game to stop typing and try thinking for a little while. Its good for you, and everyone around you.
Here is some theory you can skip if lazy:
EVE is a game about weighing risk an reward - something it delightfully shares with real life without serious permanent consequences - each opposing side largely supplies one aspect of this relationship. PvPers largely provide the risk, and carebears mainly the reward. Carebears die and thus give the PvPers financial and psychological rewards [PvPers thrive on carebear tears]. Carebears, honestly, most things without any element of perceived risk are not fun. You're playing a game, so the real life risk is minimal to truly non-existent. You get your risk through entrepreneurial market manipulation, fighting rats and most importantly, from getting ganked by the PvP community.
Though some of these things go both ways, the carebear poses minute risk to the PvPer and the PvPer [if defeated] poses minute reward to the carebear.
Simply put, whichever side you belong to, you define yourself based on the fact that you do not belong in the other category. If you want to adopt a trite academic standby, you can call it "the Other". It is forming an identity by discerning yourself from a group you dislike or with whom you disagree.
PvPers look down upon carebears as being cowards, or perhaps not living up to the massively multiplayer and risk aspects of the game. In some cases I am sure that is true. There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks. This is good, it is what makes EVE a wonderful sandbox of opportunity, and not just a 3rd person shooter in spaceships.
Carebears, you too need the PvPers, for the same reason of self-identity. They [at least to some of you] are loathsome and malicious pirates who seemingly just want to do you harm and destroy your hard work. However, without them, you would not be carebears, you would just be industrialists, missioners who could be playing the game single-player. There would be no true risk to your operations. Without risk, there would be little reward other than accumulating absurd amounts of wealth that you would only use to make more wealth and so on... There would be no conquering of space, no rush that comes from defeating the odds, mastering danger and much less patting yourself on the back for making a wise decision. That risk-less fake money making game exists, it is called Excel. Or perhaps, if you are an unrealistically optimistic economist, that game is called 'mutual funds'. In EVE however, you would get bored, stop playing and the game would cease to exist. Carebears are the backbone of the EVE economy and provide much reason for PvPers to play in the first place.
End theory
So great, you need each other. Big deal, someone else has said this before, though maybe without considering this angle. What may be a new idea to some is that we need to keep fighting each other, but in new ways. Maybe however, there needs to be a new type of fighting. Carebear style.
Emergent game play. Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, ice interdictions and any massive culling of hi-sec is awesome for the game. Destroyed ships = money for CCP just as bored/absent carebears = less money for CCP. . Destroyed ISK means more people playing to get that ISK back and more people playing to destroy more ISK. More people in an MMO = better for everyone. It's also plain old fun and excitement.
I'm not a particularly good carebear or PvPer, but I have done both, and I know the notion of getting carebears [who are defined by their meekness] to do something like fight is a stretch. But for goodness sake, you probably have ********* underneath your Startrek tighty-whiteys, so use 'em! Someone in a different post here suggested that carebears suddenly climb into PvP fit T3s and blitz null sec. That is a great way to get ganked and pillaged and to feed null more hi-sec tears. Who enjoys spaceship gang ****? 9 out of 10 people.
Carebears, fight PvPers with your own weapons, not theirs. Your weapon is hi-sec space and most of what it contains. Use it.
So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up? |
![Lila Sujani Lila Sujani](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90842157/portrait?size=64)
Lila Sujani
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.05.20 12:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it. |
![Destination SkillQueue Destination SkillQueue](https://images.evetech.net/characters/199860708/portrait?size=64)
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4993
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: Carebears and PvPers each need each other, not only economically [which is outside the purview of this post], but psychologically.
That is nonsense. The game just needs people doing industry and significant portion of the PvP population I've met are industrials too. They like to PvP, but also mine, invent, produce and do PI with their spare time. There are very few people who actually just PvP or define themselves solely through it. Most players take part in various activities and other players don't feel the need to define them as other or put them in a confrontational position. They're just other players, that play the game in their own way and that's where it ends.
There is a lot of hate towards carebears, but that's because they aren't just people doing PvE activities. Carebears in EVE actively avoid any kind of PvP at all costs, complain endlessly when it happens to them and even try to remove it from certain areas of the game entirely. People who like EVE as a multiplayer sandbox have great reasons for hating them and carebears defined this way are in no way necessary to the game.
Your whole view of the situation just seems weird to me anyway. It's like you read some forum vomit and built your grand theory based on it. It might be a problem with you not defining your terms, so it's unclear what you exactly refer to with the term carebear. It could be, that you just meant people who do PvE, but since almost everyone does it, that isn't much of a problem to most EVE players if any. I think you might have some good points about how some people have adopted this confrontational attitude and used it to define who they are and who the other is, but that's about it.
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![GreenSeed GreenSeed](https://images.evetech.net/characters/756299536/portrait?size=64)
GreenSeed
296
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
confirming the word "emergent gameplay" now means some crap it didn't when it was first coined. |
![Haseo Antares Haseo Antares](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1815194448/portrait?size=64)
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
44
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Now I've never been the sharpest butter knife in the crayon box...but what is your point?
Play to have fun...anything else is pointless. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
![Nyancat Audeles Nyancat Audeles](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92120910/portrait?size=64)
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
224
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Another one of these threads? Lock for lack of content please |
![Felicity Love Felicity Love](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91029098/portrait?size=64)
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT Joint Venture Conglomerate
619
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
EVE is dying...
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
![Elinarien Elinarien](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91690256/portrait?size=64)
Elinarien
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yawn...
"Emergent Gameplay" is just another of those lazy phrases that serves no other purpose than to allow one to play bullshit bingo on these forums.... |
![Six Six Six Six Six Six](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92412832/portrait?size=64)
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it.
Actually both groups are as bad as each other, although to be more exact a small percentage of both groups. |
![Aemonchichi Aemonchichi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1291857628/portrait?size=64)
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
50
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be |
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![Doc Fury Doc Fury](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1004636318/portrait?size=64)
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1862
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meine augen!
/not this crap again
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
![Lady Areola Fappington Lady Areola Fappington](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92962088/portrait?size=64)
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
239
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be
Show me on the doll where the ganker touched you.
Actually, your name looks kind of familiar. We didn't get you, or one of your poorly named alts recently, did we?
As for your silly statistics, Most gankers are quite avid PVPers, Be it faction warfare, lowsec piracy, or null.
The ability to ruin someone's day has always been, and will continue to be, a core guiding principle of EVE Online. If nonconsensual PVP isn't your thing, this may not be the game for you. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
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![Adunh Slavy Adunh Slavy](https://images.evetech.net/characters/680860739/portrait?size=64)
Adunh Slavy
813
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?
Carebears don't care |
![Skeln Thargensen Skeln Thargensen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91870673/portrait?size=64)
Skeln Thargensen
Thargensen Plumbing Services
162
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
er, move more than two jumps and don't undock that expensive thing.
hth! freelance space bum |
![Infinity Ziona Infinity Ziona](https://images.evetech.net/characters/525352706/portrait?size=64)
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
6
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it. Actually both groups are as bad as each other, although to be more exact a largepercentage of both groups. fixed it for u |
![Andski Andski](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1498850496/portrait?size=64)
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7924
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be
Yes, we know, the feared "mass exodus of carebears" is always imminent. It's been imminent for a decade. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
![Murk Paradox Murk Paradox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92282405/portrait?size=64)
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
359
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:I would like to start a discussion on emergent game play that carebears could undertake.
James 315 has one of the best examples of emergent gameplay.
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing". "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6536
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:Carebears and PvPers each need each other
PvPers dont need bears. |
![TheGunslinger42 TheGunslinger42](https://images.evetech.net/characters/121550315/portrait?size=64)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1312
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be
What is this absurd notion of a "real pvper" you have? Shooting some scrub in a mining barge is as real and valid as engaging a supercap fleet. PVP is PVP. Carebears like to imply, through the use of the term "real pvp", that PVP done against them specifically is somehow less valid, less ~honourable~, etc but ... I think it's just bs they use to make themselves feel better about the poor (for the situation they found themselves in) decisions they made themselves.
It's very dishonest to claim PVP you don't like isn't "real". |
![silens vesica silens vesica](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1958910856/portrait?size=64)
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1786
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Oh look! Another hopeless optimist that thinks he can get carebears to play the game the way *he* wants to play.
Carebears are a force of nature - Like poison ivy and weeds. You simply have to learn to deal with them. Or avoid them. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
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![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6539
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
silens vesica wrote: Carebears are a force of nature - Like cattle and fish. You simply have to learn to farm them.
Fixed. |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1561
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: Emergent game play. Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, ice interdictions and any massive culling of hi-sec is awesome for the game. Destroyed ships = money for CCP just as bored/absent carebears = less money for CCP. . Destroyed ISK means more people playing to get that ISK back and more people playing to destroy more ISK. More people in an MMO = better for everyone. It's also plain old fun and excitement.
(stuff)
So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?
I think this puts it nicely:
Inferno wrote: ... millimeters, kilometers, headcounts, deathtolls.
This is progress.
Colonies burned, Ships destroyed, people killed.
Money earned.
It all comes at a price.
But in all honesty, there shouldn't be a distinction between "carebear" and "PVPer". What I mean is, we all PVP -- be it on the markets, or at belt 1, or moon 1-1.
Way I see it is that the marketeers, industrialists, traders, etc have their "home turf" on the market screen, and the combat pilots are at a disadvantage. Their "recourse" then is to take things outside, and settle things with antimatter. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1561
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![silens vesica silens vesica](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1958910856/portrait?size=64)
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1786
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:silens vesica wrote: Carebears are a force of nature - Like cattle and fish. You simply have to learn to farm them.
Fixed. Fair point, I suppose. They give me a rash and get in the way. You can farm 'em if you wish. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
![Zifrian Zifrian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/495828667/portrait?size=64)
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
933
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
So your suggestion is...get a bunch of non-social players in unaffiliated, single player, multi-character corporations with skills focused on non-pvp to leave the safety of high-sec space to go attack gate campers, et al and risk the wealth they have earned through their own version of enjoyable gameplay in the sandbox....for what exactly?
I like the idea that people play however they want. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
![TheGunslinger42 TheGunslinger42](https://images.evetech.net/characters/121550315/portrait?size=64)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1312
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
I believe he was called Sir Bartholomew Awoxington |
![Jarod Garamonde Jarod Garamonde](https://images.evetech.net/characters/866271368/portrait?size=64)
Jarod Garamonde
Action Bastards
187
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Posted - 2013.05.20 15:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
No.... Awox was actually his name. "you can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."-á --áBienator II |
![Murk Paradox Murk Paradox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92282405/portrait?size=64)
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
Yea I don't remember the guy's name, it was before my time, but I did come across it in an article once. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
![Ginger Barbarella Ginger Barbarella](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92167415/portrait?size=64)
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1310
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it.
That's cute... It's almost like you're trying to make people believe you have a clue what you're talking about!!
"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
![Andski Andski](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1498850496/portrait?size=64)
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7926
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
I don't particularly care if somebody isn't interested in PvP. I do care if they refuse to accept that they are not completely safe anywhere and that avoiding PvP is an active process, not a switch you turn on or off. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
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