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![Susurrus Synaesthesia Susurrus Synaesthesia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90543832/portrait?size=64)
Susurrus Synaesthesia
Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N
0
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Posted - 2013.05.20 12:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
I would like to start a discussion on emergent game play that carebears could undertake. In addition, it is my hope that this post will shed some light on this dynamic that many people seem so obsessed with, and not to beat an already dead horse to a pulp. In the efforts of avoiding the TLDR problems, I'll give you a quick abstract on what I have to say:
EVE is a game based on 'risk vs. reward', without either the game is boring. Carebears and PvPers each need each other, not only economically [which is outside the purview of this post], but psychologically. PvPers provide the 'risk', and Carebears the 'reward'. Keep fighting, keep doing your thing, but stop bitching about it and stop petitioning CCP to remove one or the other. Emergent game play, like the 'burn jita' events is fan-bloody-tastic for the game. Carebears, maybe it is time you fought back in your own way: you form much of the economical backbone of EVE either by generating ISK through missioning or actually producing minerals, modules, ships and other such virtual property. Maybe, since null sec still depends on you, if only [post-odyssey mineral changes] for your delicious tears and money, you could find a way to mess with them...
Let's get one thing out of the way first so this thread doesn't immediately devolve into a 'carebears suck, nullsec blue donut' fight. I encourage carebears and null/low/WH denizens to keep arguing and fighting with each other, in space and on the forums. I also encourage the people who keep encouraging CCP to nerf or remove one or the other from the game to stop typing and try thinking for a little while. Its good for you, and everyone around you.
Here is some theory you can skip if lazy:
EVE is a game about weighing risk an reward - something it delightfully shares with real life without serious permanent consequences - each opposing side largely supplies one aspect of this relationship. PvPers largely provide the risk, and carebears mainly the reward. Carebears die and thus give the PvPers financial and psychological rewards [PvPers thrive on carebear tears]. Carebears, honestly, most things without any element of perceived risk are not fun. You're playing a game, so the real life risk is minimal to truly non-existent. You get your risk through entrepreneurial market manipulation, fighting rats and most importantly, from getting ganked by the PvP community.
Though some of these things go both ways, the carebear poses minute risk to the PvPer and the PvPer [if defeated] poses minute reward to the carebear.
Simply put, whichever side you belong to, you define yourself based on the fact that you do not belong in the other category. If you want to adopt a trite academic standby, you can call it "the Other". It is forming an identity by discerning yourself from a group you dislike or with whom you disagree.
PvPers look down upon carebears as being cowards, or perhaps not living up to the massively multiplayer and risk aspects of the game. In some cases I am sure that is true. There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks. This is good, it is what makes EVE a wonderful sandbox of opportunity, and not just a 3rd person shooter in spaceships.
Carebears, you too need the PvPers, for the same reason of self-identity. They [at least to some of you] are loathsome and malicious pirates who seemingly just want to do you harm and destroy your hard work. However, without them, you would not be carebears, you would just be industrialists, missioners who could be playing the game single-player. There would be no true risk to your operations. Without risk, there would be little reward other than accumulating absurd amounts of wealth that you would only use to make more wealth and so on... There would be no conquering of space, no rush that comes from defeating the odds, mastering danger and much less patting yourself on the back for making a wise decision. That risk-less fake money making game exists, it is called Excel. Or perhaps, if you are an unrealistically optimistic economist, that game is called 'mutual funds'. In EVE however, you would get bored, stop playing and the game would cease to exist. Carebears are the backbone of the EVE economy and provide much reason for PvPers to play in the first place.
End theory
So great, you need each other. Big deal, someone else has said this before, though maybe without considering this angle. What may be a new idea to some is that we need to keep fighting each other, but in new ways. Maybe however, there needs to be a new type of fighting. Carebear style.
Emergent game play. Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, ice interdictions and any massive culling of hi-sec is awesome for the game. Destroyed ships = money for CCP just as bored/absent carebears = less money for CCP. . Destroyed ISK means more people playing to get that ISK back and more people playing to destroy more ISK. More people in an MMO = better for everyone. It's also plain old fun and excitement.
I'm not a particularly good carebear or PvPer, but I have done both, and I know the notion of getting carebears [who are defined by their meekness] to do something like fight is a stretch. But for goodness sake, you probably have ********* underneath your Startrek tighty-whiteys, so use 'em! Someone in a different post here suggested that carebears suddenly climb into PvP fit T3s and blitz null sec. That is a great way to get ganked and pillaged and to feed null more hi-sec tears. Who enjoys spaceship gang ****? 9 out of 10 people.
Carebears, fight PvPers with your own weapons, not theirs. Your weapon is hi-sec space and most of what it contains. Use it.
So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up? |
![Lila Sujani Lila Sujani](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90842157/portrait?size=64)
Lila Sujani
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.05.20 12:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it. |
![Destination SkillQueue Destination SkillQueue](https://images.evetech.net/characters/199860708/portrait?size=64)
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
4993
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: Carebears and PvPers each need each other, not only economically [which is outside the purview of this post], but psychologically.
That is nonsense. The game just needs people doing industry and significant portion of the PvP population I've met are industrials too. They like to PvP, but also mine, invent, produce and do PI with their spare time. There are very few people who actually just PvP or define themselves solely through it. Most players take part in various activities and other players don't feel the need to define them as other or put them in a confrontational position. They're just other players, that play the game in their own way and that's where it ends.
There is a lot of hate towards carebears, but that's because they aren't just people doing PvE activities. Carebears in EVE actively avoid any kind of PvP at all costs, complain endlessly when it happens to them and even try to remove it from certain areas of the game entirely. People who like EVE as a multiplayer sandbox have great reasons for hating them and carebears defined this way are in no way necessary to the game.
Your whole view of the situation just seems weird to me anyway. It's like you read some forum vomit and built your grand theory based on it. It might be a problem with you not defining your terms, so it's unclear what you exactly refer to with the term carebear. It could be, that you just meant people who do PvE, but since almost everyone does it, that isn't much of a problem to most EVE players if any. I think you might have some good points about how some people have adopted this confrontational attitude and used it to define who they are and who the other is, but that's about it.
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![GreenSeed GreenSeed](https://images.evetech.net/characters/756299536/portrait?size=64)
GreenSeed
296
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
confirming the word "emergent gameplay" now means some crap it didn't when it was first coined. |
![Haseo Antares Haseo Antares](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1815194448/portrait?size=64)
Haseo Antares
Corollary Forest Fairytail.
44
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Now I've never been the sharpest butter knife in the crayon box...but what is your point?
Play to have fun...anything else is pointless. We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode whatn++ you just said. |
![Nyancat Audeles Nyancat Audeles](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92120910/portrait?size=64)
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
224
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Another one of these threads? Lock for lack of content please |
![Felicity Love Felicity Love](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91029098/portrait?size=64)
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT Joint Venture Conglomerate
619
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 13:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
EVE is dying...
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
![Elinarien Elinarien](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91690256/portrait?size=64)
Elinarien
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yawn...
"Emergent Gameplay" is just another of those lazy phrases that serves no other purpose than to allow one to play bullshit bingo on these forums.... |
![Six Six Six Six Six Six](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92412832/portrait?size=64)
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it.
Actually both groups are as bad as each other, although to be more exact a small percentage of both groups. |
![Aemonchichi Aemonchichi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1291857628/portrait?size=64)
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
50
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be |
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![Doc Fury Doc Fury](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1004636318/portrait?size=64)
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1862
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Posted - 2013.05.20 13:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Meine augen!
/not this crap again
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
![Lady Areola Fappington Lady Areola Fappington](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92962088/portrait?size=64)
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
239
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be
Show me on the doll where the ganker touched you.
Actually, your name looks kind of familiar. We didn't get you, or one of your poorly named alts recently, did we?
As for your silly statistics, Most gankers are quite avid PVPers, Be it faction warfare, lowsec piracy, or null.
The ability to ruin someone's day has always been, and will continue to be, a core guiding principle of EVE Online. If nonconsensual PVP isn't your thing, this may not be the game for you. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
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![Adunh Slavy Adunh Slavy](https://images.evetech.net/characters/680860739/portrait?size=64)
Adunh Slavy
813
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?
Carebears don't care |
![Skeln Thargensen Skeln Thargensen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91870673/portrait?size=64)
Skeln Thargensen
Thargensen Plumbing Services
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
er, move more than two jumps and don't undock that expensive thing.
hth! freelance space bum |
![Infinity Ziona Infinity Ziona](https://images.evetech.net/characters/525352706/portrait?size=64)
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
6
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Posted - 2013.05.20 14:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it. Actually both groups are as bad as each other, although to be more exact a largepercentage of both groups. fixed it for u |
![Andski Andski](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1498850496/portrait?size=64)
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7924
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be
Yes, we know, the feared "mass exodus of carebears" is always imminent. It's been imminent for a decade. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
![Murk Paradox Murk Paradox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92282405/portrait?size=64)
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:I would like to start a discussion on emergent game play that carebears could undertake.
James 315 has one of the best examples of emergent gameplay.
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing". "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6536
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 14:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:Carebears and PvPers each need each other
PvPers dont need bears. |
![TheGunslinger42 TheGunslinger42](https://images.evetech.net/characters/121550315/portrait?size=64)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1312
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be
What is this absurd notion of a "real pvper" you have? Shooting some scrub in a mining barge is as real and valid as engaging a supercap fleet. PVP is PVP. Carebears like to imply, through the use of the term "real pvp", that PVP done against them specifically is somehow less valid, less ~honourable~, etc but ... I think it's just bs they use to make themselves feel better about the poor (for the situation they found themselves in) decisions they made themselves.
It's very dishonest to claim PVP you don't like isn't "real". |
![silens vesica silens vesica](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1958910856/portrait?size=64)
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1786
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Oh look! Another hopeless optimist that thinks he can get carebears to play the game the way *he* wants to play.
Carebears are a force of nature - Like poison ivy and weeds. You simply have to learn to deal with them. Or avoid them. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
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![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6539
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
silens vesica wrote: Carebears are a force of nature - Like cattle and fish. You simply have to learn to farm them.
Fixed. |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1561
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: Emergent game play. Burn Jita, Hulkageddon, ice interdictions and any massive culling of hi-sec is awesome for the game. Destroyed ships = money for CCP just as bored/absent carebears = less money for CCP. . Destroyed ISK means more people playing to get that ISK back and more people playing to destroy more ISK. More people in an MMO = better for everyone. It's also plain old fun and excitement.
(stuff)
So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?
I think this puts it nicely:
Inferno wrote: ... millimeters, kilometers, headcounts, deathtolls.
This is progress.
Colonies burned, Ships destroyed, people killed.
Money earned.
It all comes at a price.
But in all honesty, there shouldn't be a distinction between "carebear" and "PVPer". What I mean is, we all PVP -- be it on the markets, or at belt 1, or moon 1-1.
Way I see it is that the marketeers, industrialists, traders, etc have their "home turf" on the market screen, and the combat pilots are at a disadvantage. Their "recourse" then is to take things outside, and settle things with antimatter. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1561
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![silens vesica silens vesica](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1958910856/portrait?size=64)
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1786
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:silens vesica wrote: Carebears are a force of nature - Like cattle and fish. You simply have to learn to farm them.
Fixed. Fair point, I suppose. They give me a rash and get in the way. You can farm 'em if you wish. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
![Zifrian Zifrian](https://images.evetech.net/characters/495828667/portrait?size=64)
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
933
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
So your suggestion is...get a bunch of non-social players in unaffiliated, single player, multi-character corporations with skills focused on non-pvp to leave the safety of high-sec space to go attack gate campers, et al and risk the wealth they have earned through their own version of enjoyable gameplay in the sandbox....for what exactly?
I like the idea that people play however they want. Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
![TheGunslinger42 TheGunslinger42](https://images.evetech.net/characters/121550315/portrait?size=64)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1312
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
I believe he was called Sir Bartholomew Awoxington |
![Jarod Garamonde Jarod Garamonde](https://images.evetech.net/characters/866271368/portrait?size=64)
Jarod Garamonde
Action Bastards
187
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
No.... Awox was actually his name. "you can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."-á --áBienator II |
![Murk Paradox Murk Paradox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92282405/portrait?size=64)
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
So did the dude who came up with "awoxing".
that would have been "Awox" (or something along those lines, can't recall if that was his name, or a shortening of it)
Yea I don't remember the guy's name, it was before my time, but I did come across it in an article once. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
![Ginger Barbarella Ginger Barbarella](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92167415/portrait?size=64)
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1310
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 15:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it.
That's cute... It's almost like you're trying to make people believe you have a clue what you're talking about!!
"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
![Andski Andski](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1498850496/portrait?size=64)
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7926
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
I don't particularly care if somebody isn't interested in PvP. I do care if they refuse to accept that they are not completely safe anywhere and that avoiding PvP is an active process, not a switch you turn on or off. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
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![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1562
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 16:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Andski wrote:I don't particularly care if somebody isn't interested in PvP. I do care if they refuse to accept that they are not completely safe anywhere and that avoiding PvP is an active process, not a switch you turn on or off.
This pretty much sums up most eve players, I think.
Also, **** all you people who're making me agree with goons. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![Calgrissom Torvec Calgrissom Torvec](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91184011/portrait?size=64)
Calgrissom Torvec
1
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Posted - 2013.05.20 18:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Carebears are the one who actually take the risk in this game. Undocking in ship fitting that are unable to perform PVP and PVE to and acceptable level put them in a place where they cannot defend themselves from pvp pilots and perform PVE combat. Ganking is most of the pvp in the game outside of Null and the carebear is always at a disadvantage. Own a freighter or pve BS? 6 trash fit sebo/T2 Gyro tornadoes can pop you with little trouble they don't need tank or acceptable combat fittings . The ganker fleet will be out much less ISK than the lone carebear who has no chance to fight back.
Miner / mission/ freighter ganking has proven this time and time again as if it wasn't profitable and easy to perform it would not happen multiple times every day.
|
![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6543
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 18:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Calgrissom Torvec wrote:Carebears are the one who actually take the risk in this game. Undocking in ship fitting that are unable to perform PVP and PVE to and acceptable level put them in a place where they cannot defend themselves from pvp pilots and perform PVE combat. Ganking is most of the pvp in the game outside of Null and the carebear is always at a disadvantage. Own a freighter or pve BS? 6 trash fit sebo/T2 Gyro tornadoes can pop you with little trouble they don't need tank or acceptable combat fittings . The ganker fleet will be out much less ISK than the lone carebear who has no chance to fight back.
Miner / mission/ freighter ganking has proven this time and time again as if it wasn't profitable and easy to perform it would not happen multiple times every day.
Fun fact.
The ganking of barges and exhumers have never been lower than today. You are also more likely to be involved in a road accident than ganked unless you do something stupid. |
![Susurrus Synaesthesia Susurrus Synaesthesia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90543832/portrait?size=64)
Susurrus Synaesthesia
Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:So your suggestion is...get a bunch of non-social players in unaffiliated, single player, multi-character corporations with skills focused on non-pvp to leave the safety of high-sec space to go attack gate campers, et al as a group with people they do not know and risk the wealth they have earned through their own version of enjoyable gameplay in the sandbox....for what exactly?
I like the idea that people play however they want.
I don't know if you were responding to my original post, but my idea was just opposite of that. And I do think people should play how they want, they just might consider not complaining about their choice publicly. Example: your date decides to wear high heels out to dinner. Fine, nice even. She should not however, get to whine about it all night and blame YOU for it. It was her decision. Extrapolate then: It is my belief that carebears and PvPers alike shouldn't whine about the legitimate play styles of their counterparts. As you said, play how you want.
I was hoping this thread might generate ideas for those complaining (carebears being those who avoid PvP and complain having to) a way to vent their frustration more productively. A trade embargo with null sec players obviously wouldn't work. I've already established that the idea of industrialists fighting gate camps is ludicrous... I can't think of a solution, thus the challenge. Is there some resource PvPers need and can only get from carebears that the carebears could control? A hi sec technetium? Broader market manipulation? Obviously their delicious tears are an example but that cannot be regimented. Carebears would never log on - the equivalent of curing the disease by killing the patient. I guess I was optimistic that the carebears would even read this and additionally that someone could offer ideas about a tactical recourse to ganking besides whining on the forums and avoiding certain systems. I'm starting to think that this has no solution and has too many logical holes to contend with (if care bears stop whining, do they cease to be carebears?).
Maybe people just like whining. But for the amount of people who whine about OTEC, the 'blue donut' and the Goons, they sure don't seem to do **** about it. If ya can't beat em...
|
![Cipher Jones Cipher Jones](https://images.evetech.net/characters/928056758/portrait?size=64)
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
644
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 19:46:00 -
[35] - Quote
Quote: Emergent game play, like the 'burn jita' events is fan-bloody-tastic for the game.
That's why Hilmar got on stage, cried like a girl, said it almost killed the company, and ditched WoD and Wis.
I was seriously giving you the benefit the doubt till I got that sentence. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha |
![Jonah Gravenstein Jonah Gravenstein](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90810822/portrait?size=64)
Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8309
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
Calgrissom Torvec wrote:Carebears are the one who actually take the risk in this game. Undocking in ship fitting that are unable to perform PVP and PVE to an acceptable level put them in a place where they cannot defend themselves from pvp pilots and perform PVE combat. As a pretty much dyed in the wool "carebear", you're wrong. Don't want your PvE ship to explode? don't tank solely for the rats you're fighting, don't be afk, know about game mechanics that let others gain legitimate aggro timers on you, don't fit overly shiny modules, be aware of who the ganking groups are and set them to bad or terribad standings so that they show up differently in local and on the overview, don't cry in chat when you die, ask your opponent where you went wrong and above all don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
Quote: Ganking is most of the pvp in the game outside of Null and the carebear is always at a disadvantage. Own a freighter or pve BS? 6 trash fit sebo/T2 Gyro tornadoes can pop you with little trouble they don't need tank or acceptable combat fittings . The ganker fleet will be out much less ISK than the lone carebear who has no chance to fight back. Once again you're wrong, if you're hauling an excessive ISK value in a ship that is made of paper mache then it's entirely on you when you get ganked, the gankers don't determine if a gank is profitable or not, the person being ganked does. I carry no more than 10,000 isk per EHP of my hauler (200,000,000 isk in a 20,000 EHP ship for example) usually less, anything more than that is the equivalent to having a neon sign on the back inviting people to 'splode my arse.
Quote:Miner / mission/ freighter ganking has proven this time and time again as if it wasn't profitable and easy to perform it would not happen multiple times every day.
Don't call it easy until you've tried it, a gank squad of destroyers or tier 3 battlecruisers requires organisation, planning, pre planned undocks, concord baiting, scouts who ship scan and a good knowledge of game mechanics, teamwork is pretty much always going to triumph over a solo effort. It happens multiple times per day purely because people take no precautions against it.
Last but not least, consider your ship dead when you undock in it, if you get to dock back up in it, consider that a bonus.
A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
![Yokai Mitsuhide Yokai Mitsuhide](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91597220/portrait?size=64)
Yokai Mitsuhide
Smegnet Corp
4078
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Lila Sujani wrote:Carebears fight PvPers by complaining and sperging on these forums. Haven't we established that long ago?
Here they cannot be ganked, their ISK/hr is unaffected, and they can ignore facts and declare victory whenever they feel like it.
90% of the time I see you "elite" pvpers are the ones on the forums with your constant complaining and demands of things being balanced to be in your favor.
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![Vincent R'lyeh Vincent R'lyeh](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91170036/portrait?size=64)
Vincent R'lyeh
Screaming Hayabusa
187
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
What this thread needs is more beards I have deliberately developed an air of cynicism that I originally intended to make me appear somewhat louche and caddish but actually comes across as irritable hostility combined with the unspoken threat of sudden violence..... |
![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6546
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
90% of the time I see you "elite" pvpers are the ones on the forums with your constant complaining and demands of things being balanced to be in your favor.
So how does our calls for tech to be nerfed work into your logic? |
![Yokai Mitsuhide Yokai Mitsuhide](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91597220/portrait?size=64)
Yokai Mitsuhide
Smegnet Corp
4078
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
90% of the time I see you "elite" pvpers are the ones on the forums with your constant complaining and demands of things being balanced to be in your favor.
So how does our calls for tech to be nerfed work into your logic?
Well...it pokes some rather large holes in it actually. |
|
![Jonah Gravenstein Jonah Gravenstein](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90810822/portrait?size=64)
Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8309
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
90% of the time I see you "elite" pvpers are the ones on the forums with your constant complaining and demands of things being balanced to be in your favor.
So how does our calls for tech to be nerfed work into your logic? It doesn't match his world view and is therefore considered irrelevant, some people make the rest of us carebears look bad, which is why I gank them occasionally, lols and profit are also in the equation of course.
A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
![Captain Tardbar Captain Tardbar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/453693366/portrait?size=64)
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
400
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 20:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
People don't understand. Its not supposed to be "Risk versus Reward", its "Bored versus Reward"
Take FW LP whoring. All you do is risk a cheap frigate with warp stabs and a clone with no SP so if you're podded there is no isk loss involved.
You can makes hundreds of millions in a day, but it involved you watching 20 minute timers hours on end per day. I did it for a while, but found it more boring than mining.
Sure you say "But you risk a frigate!" but the rewards are quite more than you get if you were missioning with a battleship.
The real trade off is doing boring tasks for a reward.
Gate camping is an example of this as well. Boring as hell most of the time, but eventualy you get rewarded for doing a boring task.
Do you think people would really mine if it didn't pay anything?
[edit]
Also there is no risk in ganking. You go into knowing what you are going to lose and if you know the right targets, you know its 100% reward rate. Unless you fail horribly at ganking which I have seen people brag about using hurricanes to kill ventures.
Still there is no risk. Your loss is 100% guaranteed. There is no doubt on the loss of your ship. Thats not risk. That is just expenditures. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
![Gealbhan Gealbhan](https://images.evetech.net/characters/809987554/portrait?size=64)
Gealbhan
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:48:00 -
[43] - Quote
tl;dr carebears come out and fight I want easy targets. ![Arrow](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_arrow.png) |
![Aemonchichi Aemonchichi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1291857628/portrait?size=64)
Aemonchichi
Limited Access Guardian Society
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 22:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote: Also there is no risk in ganking. You go into knowing what you are going to lose and if you know the right targets, you know its 100% reward rate. Unless you fail horribly at ganking which I have seen people brag about using hurricanes to kill ventures.
Still there is no risk. Your loss is 100% guaranteed. There is no doubt on the loss of your ship. Thats not risk. That is just expenditures.
if only, after years, ccp would finally understand this maybe their 1000$ designer jeans were too tight in some spots |
![Skeln Thargensen Skeln Thargensen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91870673/portrait?size=64)
Skeln Thargensen
Thargensen Plumbing Services
166
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
yeah the ISK/hr thing is just completely boring. it's what broke me as a carebear. don't want to do it, happy that other people do though. ![Twisted](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_twisted.png)
I just don't get the high sec ganking thing. it just seems like more grim arithmetic. freelance space bum |
![Mara Rinn Mara Rinn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1923774236/portrait?size=64)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3375
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:25:00 -
[46] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:EVE is a game based on 'risk vs. reward'
Nope.
EVE is a sci fi virtual world with its own economy. There is no game rule that states that those who take the most risk get the biggest rewards. Neither is there any game rule that states that those who expend the most effort get the biggest rewards.
Where is the risk in scamming people using margin trading, station trading of "faction" ships, or "I'll double your ISK"?
The only risk in suicide ganking the 30B ISK officer-fit marauder in a hisec mission hub is that the loot fairy will look upon you unkindly.
Where is the reward in mining Jaspet in low sec while flying a Covetor?
Your assumption is easily falsified.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
![Alavaria Fera Alavaria Fera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91492021/portrait?size=64)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3592
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
Skeln Thargensen wrote:yeah the ISK/hr thing is just completely boring. it's what broke me as a carebear. don't want to do it, happy that other people do though. ![Twisted](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_twisted.png) I just don't get the high sec ganking thing. it just seems like more grim arithmetic. ISK/gank thing. Completely boring. It's what broke people as a ganker.
I am a nullsec zealot. |
![Sidrat Flush Sidrat Flush](https://images.evetech.net/characters/716630529/portrait?size=64)
Sidrat Flush
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
143
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 00:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
It's not the carebears or pvprs thst are bad for the game.
Its the poor CEO in empire who hasn't read a dev blog or been on the test server or actually tries and encourages their members to think for themselves and try something new and different, beyond moving to a different agent to spend another year shooting red crosses.
New players join the game after reading our awesome headlines and then they meet rubbish CEOs who convince them to mine or shoot red crosses.
Instead of asking if they've completed the tutorial linked a frig fit asked if they can fly it and if they can't provide skill book and ir ship snd fit. Show them how to set up their overview and get thrm on voice comms.
Take em to low sec snd find something to shoot at. Customs offices grab peoples attention if theres no one else around in belts.
Teach them how to dscan from a safe spot to find the badger picking up pi mats and loot the wreck. Theres or the badgers.
This is the only game that instills a mode of thinking that involves a sense of fair play. Even Dust players arent immune when infiltrated by spies.
Typed on phone (. The new home of the Eve Industrial Organiser is here. Enjoy the first in a series, EIO:Refinery now http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Sidrat/ Read about it http://eveindustrialorganiser.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0 |
![Andski Andski](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1498850496/portrait?size=64)
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7932
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 00:19:00 -
[49] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:The only risk in suicide ganking the 30B ISK officer-fit marauder in a hisec mission hub is that the loot fairy will look upon you unkindly.
So you mean that it's just like market trading where you risk losing your investment and not getting any return?
There are so many holes in the "suicide ganking is risk-free" whine. I thought you'd be smarter than that. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
![Herzog Wolfhammer Herzog Wolfhammer](https://images.evetech.net/characters/805810401/portrait?size=64)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2797
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 01:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
What exactly is a carebear anyway?
Is this a term for people who avoid any and all PVP at all costs? I think this is a rare player.
If a carebear is someone deemed "risk averse", then it's a player that is found across the board. Let's face it, being in a large fleet is protection. No big deal.
Very often the complaints about carebears appear to come from bored gate campers who want somehow for people to be funneled into their overviews for target practice, but anybody who is involved in the game enough to care about it that much should know better, that it's never so simple.
But to understand the question then is to try to understand what a carebear is not, but then, from the so-called "other side", all that the PVP crowd has demonstrated is stupid ship loss for which refitting takes time, and where does the ISK come from? (Usually from a highsec carebear alt - like every PVPer has a fat girlfriend they don't want anybody to find out about)
If you want to blur the lines and make more PVP/Emergence happen, you have to change the missions.
Yes the missions.
Missions are from whence everybody starts out you see. If this was a total kill or be killed space fest (guild wars in space, go figure) it would be different - we'd have instead a majority of PVPers and people trying to mine and produce things coming into the forums wondering why there weren't more people in industry.
So that mission, whether you can malign it as "easy loot" or a boring grind that causes bad habits, is the core of the game. There are people who grind missions and have time for little else, and they resent that. There are those for whom PVP creates a demand for ISK and materials and they have to grind or buy plex and they resent that.
(Pro Tip: really good pirates do manage to live off pirating but since 2006 when the game turned into "kill everything that moves for no reason" that has not been so common nor as easy as it used to be. Ransoming is all but dead.)
Change the missions to include PVP from the start, and the game changes.
Why get too deep into the mechanics? Simply put, PVP-based missions where your target is another player that the system can seek out as being equally matched through statistics might be the ticket. Will some people not want to be a part of this? Of course, but as usual, we can write about incentives and all that. Look at what Goonaggedon accomplished. I would imagine that players working for pirate factions can take missions that other players are taking against those same factions. Why not? If such missions existed from day 1, everybody would be used to it.
But then maybe certain high payout missions might have a PVP hybrid to them?
Take the incursions for example. There are Sansha sympathizers out there (some just like being the bad guy, some are into the RP aspect). Would it not have been good to let them play too, helping the bad guys in some manner that there could be PVP in the complexes?
Now look at what I just wrote. Look at what Incursions have become: an elitist (except for the efforts of a few good people) shiney ship ISK grind pageant. To suggest letting other players assist the Incursions and result in PVP would probably get me tarred and feathered at Fanfest now that "things are the way they are" for so long now that what was simply game content is now somebody else's entitlement.
(Sense of entitlement not only infests the game, but the entire world too)
So some missions with PVP elements would suffice to help people across this barrier. Lowsec FW missions have this element already, it should be spread into select high sec missions for all skill ranges. I would even say that this element is "mission only" meaning you are not someone else's mission target unless you are running missions against factions yourself. But I would imagine that eventually the NPC factions vying for control of resources would want to give kill missions to players.
All merely suggestions - but the bottom line here is that as long as the PVe/PVP wall remains so high and thick, this argument and these threads are never going to end. Add in a little touch of people having a sense of entitlement (to ISK or KB stats) and an inability to get over themselves, this is just another thread.
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![Pilot Error Randomize Pilot Error Randomize](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91878274/portrait?size=64)
Pilot Error Randomize
Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 03:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
These forums are entertaining me more and more lately.
Why is it the griefers are the ones doing all the whining this year? -You're not a pirate. You're a Griefing Carebear. |
![Galaxy Pig Galaxy Pig](https://images.evetech.net/characters/246663710/portrait?size=64)
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics CODE.
765
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 04:55:00 -
[52] - Quote
Carebears are like pornography, you know it when you see it.
Anyway, what is this guy on about?
Go with the Code www.minerbumping.com |
![Tarryn Nightstorm Tarryn Nightstorm](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1764118845/portrait?size=64)
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
773
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 05:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Elinarien wrote:Yawn...
"Emergent Gameplay" is just another of those lazy phrases that serves no other purpose than to allow one to play bullshit bingo on these forums....
^^That.^^
/Thread
Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
![baltec1 baltec1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/101100080/portrait?size=64)
baltec1
Bat Country
6549
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 07:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Pilot Error Randomize wrote:These forums are entertaining me more and more lately.
Why is it the griefers are the ones doing all the whining this year?
There are no griefers around here and its the bears making almost all the threads. |
![Mara Rinn Mara Rinn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1923774236/portrait?size=64)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3380
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 08:40:00 -
[55] - Quote
Andski wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:The only risk in suicide ganking the 30B ISK officer-fit marauder in a hisec mission hub is that the loot fairy will look upon you unkindly.
So you mean that it's just like market trading where you risk losing your investment and not getting any return? There are so many holes in the "suicide ganking is risk-free" whine. I thought you'd be smarter than that.
Where did I say that suicide ganking was risk-free? The risk of the operation (measured in ISK per attempt) is calculated by the chance that those modules won't drop, multiplied by the ISK value of the modules. So there clearly is risk, but the risk is not the loss of the ganking ships: that is a known cost. There is also the chance that you miscalculated the number of ships required: but if you are after a 30B reward you may as well provide 50% extra firepower just to make sure the pi+¦ata goes all splodey.
As for your comment about market trading risk: who takes the chance of losing their entire investment in a market trading operation? The smart operators employ risk management or risk mitigation strategies such as not investing in Oxytopes once the alliance's oxytope profiteering has been discussed in public. Or perhaps engaging in fast turnover rather than high-equity single shot trades.
Other risk management strategies include not hauling stuff worth more than the ships it takes to blow up your hauler, not flying through Uedama, Niarja or Jita on autopilot, not warping to 0 on Jita 4-4 (use a docking ring bookmark instead), not warping directly to gate after undocking (use an undock bookmark instead), not piloting a freighter solo through lowsec (use a scout, use stations), and not cynoing your jump freighter to a station with a very low docking radius.
Risk can be managed. Effort can be channelled into the most profitable endeavours. There are not (and should not be) any game rules which state that risk and effort are commensurate with rewards. It is up to the player to choose the activity and accept the risk associated with the possible reward.
And let's not forget that many of the rewards in this game are not measured in terms of ISK. Some of the rewards in this game are friends, memorable moments, pretty scenery, or simply the satisfaction of having achieved a goal one set for oneself (e.g.: visit every system in known space).
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1562
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 10:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote: Emergent game play, like the 'burn jita' events is fan-bloody-tastic for the game. That's why Hilmar got on stage, cried like a girl, said it almost killed the company, and ditched WoD and Wis. I was seriously giving you the benefit the doubt till I got that sentence.
uh, shooting the statue (with Incarnarage) was not "Burn Jita".
"Burn Jita" has happened two times, shortly after Fanfest 2012, and just before Fanfest 2013. Their purpose is to (effectively) disrupt trade in Jita for the weekend of the event. Works pretty well too.
Train "Eve History" to L1 before posting again ![Blink](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_blink.png) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
![Susurrus Synaesthesia Susurrus Synaesthesia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90543832/portrait?size=64)
Susurrus Synaesthesia
Empyrean Guard IMPERIAL LEGI0N
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 10:59:00 -
[57] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Quote: Emergent game play, like the 'burn jita' events is fan-bloody-tastic for the game. That's why Hilmar got on stage, cried like a girl, said it almost killed the company, and ditched WoD and Wis. I was seriously giving you the benefit the doubt till I got that sentence. uh, shooting the statue (with Incarnarage) was not "Burn Jita". "Burn Jita" has happened two times, shortly after Fanfest 2012, and just before Fanfest 2013. Their purpose is to (effectively) disrupt trade in Jita for the weekend of the event. Works pretty well too. Train "Eve History" to L1 before posting again ![Blink](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_blink.png)
Thank you. Additionally, thanks to the people contributing ideas to the tread rather than whining at each other. Even if you think I'm full of **** AND have logic behind that opinion you are contributing. Thanks.
I've also got a bet riding on this thread... Which is another story. |
![Seven Koskanaiken Seven Koskanaiken](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91384710/portrait?size=64)
Seven Koskanaiken
Nothing Is True Everything Is Permitted
170
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:15:00 -
[58] - Quote
Who cares about the profit loss matrix projection. It's supposed to be a game, as in , have fun? Half the people I blow up I warp off and forget to even take the loot. I just want a spaceship fight. Capitalism makes everything boring. |
![LHA Tarawa LHA Tarawa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/403897570/portrait?size=64)
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
673
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 15:27:00 -
[59] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote: EVE is a game based on 'risk vs. reward', without either the game is boring.
You go irrevocably off track right there in the first sentence, rendering the rest of your post moot.
EVE is a game.
Games are intended to be fun. Games that are not fun, will not be played.
People will play the game in a way they find enjoyable, or they won't play.
People that enjoy ship-to-ship PvP, will ship-to-ship PvP regardless of the risk/reward.
People that dislike ship-to-ship PvP, will avoid ship-to-ship PvP, regardless of the risk/reward.
I'll give up 1 billion ISK opportunity cost, to avoid having a ship of mine go boom, while other players will go set up a gate camp in low sec, even if the risk of going boom is much higher than the potential reward from killing a loan straggler.
EVE is not a game of risk/reward. EVE is a game of finding a way of playing it that you enjoy, then play it that way. |
![LHA Tarawa LHA Tarawa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/403897570/portrait?size=64)
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
673
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 15:30:00 -
[60] - Quote
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Capitalism makes everything boring.
TO YOU!!!!
While to other people, the profit is the fun part while the ship-to-ship PvP is a annoying sub-plot that reduces profitability.
There is no "right" way to play EVE, other than in a way that YOU enjoy. And NO, not everyone enjoys the same things. |
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![Murk Paradox Murk Paradox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92282405/portrait?size=64)
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
368
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 15:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:People don't understand. Its not supposed to be "Risk versus Reward", its "Bored versus Reward"
Take FW LP whoring. All you do is risk a cheap frigate with warp stabs and a clone with no SP so if you're podded there is no isk loss involved.
You can makes hundreds of millions in a day, but it involved you watching 20 minute timers hours on end per day. I did it for a while, but found it more boring than mining.
Sure you say "But you risk a frigate!" but the rewards are quite more than you get if you were missioning with a battleship.
The real trade off is doing boring tasks for a reward.
Gate camping is an example of this as well. Boring as hell most of the time, but eventualy you get rewarded for doing a boring task.
Also, do you think people would really mine if it didn't pay anything? Its boring as hell.
[edit]
Also there is no risk in ganking. You go into knowing what you are going to lose and if you know the right targets, you know its 100% reward rate. Unless you fail horribly at ganking which I have seen people brag about using hurricanes to kill ventures.
Still there is no risk. Your loss is 100% guaranteed. There is no doubt on the loss of your ship. Thats not risk. That is just expenditures.
Also which also involved the teduium and boredom of hunting the right targets. Not everyone you scan will have a fail miner fit. It takes a while to find targets and there again is an example of boredom verus reward.
I've had quite the threadnaught discussion concerning this very thing in a different thread not too long ago. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
![Murk Paradox Murk Paradox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92282405/portrait?size=64)
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
368
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 15:42:00 -
[62] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Seven Koskanaiken wrote:Capitalism makes everything boring. TO YOU!!!! While to other people, the profit is the fun part while the ship-to-ship PvP is a annoying sub-plot that reduces profitability. There is no "right" way to play EVE, other than in a way that YOU enjoy. And NO, not everyone enjoys the same things.
What would you do with all the isks then? Eventually run 100 accounts? Then what?
Isk is a necessity to afford things to blow up or get blown up.
If you mine to afford a ship, don't buy the ship and keep on mining... to what end?
What does it matter if you have 100mil or 1 trillion isk if you do not spend it? I work at my job so I can afford nice things; car, toys, things for my kids, nice place, creature comforts.
If I won the lottery or was rich and did not need that job to afford those things, I wouldn't work.
Same thing in Eve. If I had the isk to afford battleships to throw away in fleet fights, I wouldn't do active income sources such as mining to afford it.
I'd blow up more spaceships. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
![LHA Tarawa LHA Tarawa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/403897570/portrait?size=64)
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
673
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 16:13:00 -
[63] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
What would you do with all the isks then? Eventually run 100 accounts? Then what?
Isk is a necessity to afford things to blow up or get blown up.
Enjoyment factor is separate from what I do with the ISK after I've earned it.
Making the ISK is fun. Spending it is more fun. I buy BPOs. I buy ships. I give ISK away to friends. I take weeks off when real world gets in the way. I have friends that are trying to achieve a larger goal, and I spend lots of ISK trying to help them with that.
Murk Paradox wrote: If I won the lottery or was rich and did not need that job to afford those things, I wouldn't work.
Same thing in Eve. If I had the isk to afford battleships to throw away in fleet fights, I wouldn't do active income sources such as mining to afford it.
I'd blow up more spaceships.
If I had a $ billion, I'd still work, it just wouldn't be the job I have now. It would be doing something like programming computer games instead of high performance, big data, probabilistic matching engine for a data warehousing application.
Because you enjoy ship-to-ship PvP, so that is what you do. I do not enjoy ship-to-ship PvP. I enjoy gathering resources, building things, helping other players to achieve goals, building kingdoms and sandcastles.... Ships going boom is just an annoying sub-plot to be avoided while working to achieve my goals.
|
![Ahvram Ahvram](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91264775/portrait?size=64)
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 17:42:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Calgrissom Torvec wrote:Carebears are the one who actually take the risk in this game. Undocking in ship fitting that are unable to perform PVP and PVE to an acceptable level put them in a place where they cannot defend themselves from pvp pilots and perform PVE combat. As a pretty much dyed in the wool "carebear", you're wrong. Don't want your PvE ship to explode? don't tank solely for the rats you're fighting, don't be afk, know about game mechanics that let others gain legitimate aggro timers on you, don't fit overly shiny modules, be aware of who the ganking groups are and set them to bad or terribad standings so that they show up differently in local and on the overview, don't cry in chat when you die, ask your opponent where you went wrong and above all don't fly what you can't afford to lose. Quote: Ganking is most of the pvp in the game outside of Null and the carebear is always at a disadvantage. Own a freighter or pve BS? 6 trash fit sebo/T2 Gyro tornadoes can pop you with little trouble they don't need tank or acceptable combat fittings . The ganker fleet will be out much less ISK than the lone carebear who has no chance to fight back. Once again you're wrong, if you're hauling an excessive ISK value in a ship that is made of paper mache then it's entirely on you when you get ganked, the gankers don't determine if a gank is profitable or not, the person being ganked does. I carry no more than 10,000 isk per EHP of my hauler (200,000,000 isk in a 20,000 EHP ship for example) usually less, anything more than that is the equivalent to having a neon sign on the back inviting people to 'splode my arse. Your PvE BS will be fine, as long as you don't fit it with all sorts of shiny crap, attract attention to yourself, do something excessively stupid or undock it during a war. Quote:Miner / mission/ freighter ganking has proven this time and time again as if it wasn't profitable and easy to perform it would not happen multiple times every day.
Don't call it easy until you've tried it, a gank squad of destroyers or tier 3 battlecruisers requires organisation, planning, pre planned undocks, concord baiting, scouts who ship scan and a good knowledge of game mechanics, teamwork is pretty much always going to triumph over a solo effort. It happens multiple times per day purely because people take no precautions against it. Attacking commercial and industrial shipping is the very definition of piracy throughout history, why should it be any different in the future? Last but not least, consider your ship dead when you undock in it, if you get to dock back up in it, consider that a bonus.
Lets talk about all this Expert planning required to gank a freighter.
1. Sit scout on one side of gate and wait for and easy target
2. Send disposable newb character (Even tho this is against the Eula you all do it) in a noob ship to the farthest side of the system you plan to gank in. As soon as your target takes the gate you pop something with it to pull concord there.
3. Target jumps through gate With all your precision planning your 7-8 sebo/gyro fitted tornados pop target.
Man this sound so difficult.... So much skill timing and planning involved. And average group of pilots could set this up in less than 15 minutes.
And I guess faction/shiny modules are only for you Null bears since your much safer than you average high sec player... I love the logic here. |
![Dagoth Agahnim Dagoth Agahnim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90953005/portrait?size=64)
Dagoth Agahnim
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 17:42:00 -
[65] - Quote
You're really not talking about the playerbase accurately at all OP, sorry. Your definitions seem to assume that everyone is either a 100% carebear or a 100% PVPer, which is hardly true.
I started the game mining, and I still mine half the time, and I only eat rocks and ice in highsec, I gas collect in Highsec and wormholes.
I PVP fairly often now, including cruiser crawls and blops in both low and null. I don't really feed on tears that often, and when I do it's usually the tears of a gate camper or of a noob that falls for a blops bait ship in their Proteus and loses over a billion isk of property in seconds, not carebears.
I mine safely in highsec (keeping aligned to station for the silly highsec miner gankers who have yet to catch me), I take a little risk with gas harvesting, I PI in highsec only, all my assets are kept in highsec, I hire JF's to make deliveries that go through nullsec so I can get my stuff safely, etc. That's not carebear, that's cautious and intelligent. Then when I've got my stuff squared away, I take my ships out into Low and Null and start having fun till I myself get blown up, then I fly my pod back to highsec, pick up the next ship, and go back for more.
Most people I encounter do much the same thing, a bit of everything. I love scanning down anoms and finding WH's to go into for some fun, I love taking my barges and exhumers out to omnom roids, I love afk mining gas, I love following my Noctis along behind lvl4 mission fleets and collecting the goodies, and I love hopping in a PVP Dest/Cruiser/BC/SB for some Low/Null tear feeding. |
![Lady Areola Fappington Lady Areola Fappington](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92962088/portrait?size=64)
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
240
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 17:54:00 -
[66] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:
Lets talk about all this Expert planning required to gank a freighter.
1. Sit scout on one side of gate and wait for and easy target
2. Send disposable newb character (Even tho this is against the Eula you all do it) in a noob ship to the farthest side of the system you plan to gank in. As soon as your target takes the gate you pop something with it to pull concord there.
3. Target jumps through gate With all your precision planning your 7-8 sebo/gyro fitted tornados pop target.
Man this sound so difficult.... So much skill timing and planning involved. And average group of pilots could set this up in less than 15 minutes.
And I guess faction/shiny modules are only for you Null bears since your much safer than you average high sec player... I love the logic here.
Never ganked, have you?
Number two is wrong, my friend. You can't use a disposable newb char to pull concord. You pull concord by going GCC in a newb ship with the char you plan on ganking.
Also, we've checked, pulling concord is legal. If you think someone is breaking EULA while ganking, petition it. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
|
![Robus Muvila Robus Muvila](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91993116/portrait?size=64)
Robus Muvila
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
294
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 18:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
These threads always start out so promising, but as usual, are a poo flinging competition by page 2. You all suck. ![Roll](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png)
Side note:You forgot to boast about dropping corps like a pro
LHA Tarawa wrote: If I had a $ billion, I'd still work, it just wouldn't be the job I have now. It would be doing something like programming computer games instead of high performance, big data, probabilistic matching engine for a data warehousing application.
Because you enjoy ship-to-ship PvP, so that is what you do. I do not enjoy ship-to-ship PvP. I enjoy gathering resources, building things, helping other players to achieve goals, building kingdoms and sandcastles.... Ships going boom is just an annoying sub-plot to be avoided while working to achieve my goals.
TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages |
![Ahvram Ahvram](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91264775/portrait?size=64)
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
60
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 18:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Ahvram wrote:
Lets talk about all this Expert planning required to gank a freighter.
1. Sit scout on one side of gate and wait for and easy target
2. Send disposable newb character (Even tho this is against the Eula you all do it) in a noob ship to the farthest side of the system you plan to gank in. As soon as your target takes the gate you pop something with it to pull concord there.
3. Target jumps through gate With all your precision planning your 7-8 sebo/gyro fitted tornados pop target.
Man this sound so difficult.... So much skill timing and planning involved. And average group of pilots could set this up in less than 15 minutes.
And I guess faction/shiny modules are only for you Null bears since your much safer than you average high sec player... I love the logic here.
Never ganked, have you? Number two is wrong, my friend. You can't use a disposable newb char to pull concord. You pull concord by going GCC in a newb ship with the char you plan on ganking. Also, we've checked, pulling concord is legal. If you think someone is breaking EULA while ganking, petition it.
Right because they pilot that just got podded has the ability to check and see if you pulled concord to the other side of the system. The gank target is usally spamming like hell to warp off because the gank crew tends to have a pod popping frig or destroyer sitting there for some lol.
I love the innocence that ganker imply on the forums. Ive been playing eve for years im not ignorant to what happens. And no you don't need the noob to GCC the target. All it takes to lock a freighter down is a BS with a MWD. Again another free tool gankers have to lock you down just long enough to make it happen. |
![Lady Areola Fappington Lady Areola Fappington](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92962088/portrait?size=64)
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
241
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 18:57:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ahvram wrote:
Right because they pilot that just got podded has the ability to check and see if you pulled concord to the other side of the system. The gank target is usally spamming like hell to warp off because the gank crew tends to have a pod popping frig or destroyer sitting there for some lol.
I love the innocence that ganker imply on the forums. Ive been playing eve for years im not ignorant to what happens. And no you don't need the noob to GCC the target. All it takes to lock a freighter down is a BS with a MWD. Again another free tool gankers have to lock you down just long enough to make it happen.
Open map. "Ships destroyed in the last hour". "Pods destroyed in the last hour".
I don't know what yer blatting on about regarding prepping concord, but it's really simple.
1. Gank fleet jumps in noob ships. Shoots a POCO, generates one concord spawn per ganker. Dock up, wait out GCC.
2. Gank targets. Dock pods at a different station. While under GCC, undock in noob ships. Concord warps to you to explode you
3. Re-dock in home station, wait GCC, head back out to gank.
For someone who'se been playing for years, you should be familiar with these tactics, and the counters.
Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
|
![Mayhaw Morgan Mayhaw Morgan](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91397693/portrait?size=64)
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
89
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:20:00 -
[70] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up?
It might help to use more descriptive terms for each playstyle than "carebear" and "PVPer".
What IS a carebear? How does he/she differ in their approach to the game from a "PVPer"?
My understanding is that "carebears" just place higher emphasis on survival. Carebears are survivalists. "Carebear" is an epithet for "someone who places survival as their highest priority". After all, you don't ever defeat the environment in PVE. You just survive it. Viewed in that way, it's pretty obvious why a survivalist wouldn't put him/her self into a situation where it was simply a roll of the dice whether they survived or not. The acquisition of wealth, the construction of a more resilient vehicle for survival (their spaceship), the minimization of variables they cannot fully control (ex: other people), these are all behaviors of someone who is motivated to survive first and foremost. Other objectives are SECONDARY. They're not afraid to play the game. Survival IS their game. Ever increasing survivability is their objective.
Well, what is a "PVPer"? How does he/she differ in their approach to the game from a survivalist? |
|
![DSpite Culhach DSpite Culhach](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92037124/portrait?size=64)
DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
138
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 06:47:00 -
[71] - Quote
I just recently posted in GD with a link to a plan I had to get some of the group that I know to do something different, that being basically making a private fight club and custom content, and I did that because I kept seeing posts like the OP quite a bit, that try to get players to do things they normally don't, but not because I wanted players to take more "risks", but because I simply wanted them to log on more often and do thing here in EVE, rather then what they do now, which is a little bit of EVE and a ton of Facebook games.
A lot of you seem to miss the point that many people - me included atm - do not find the base EVE combat mechanics all that entertaining, yet we have the problem that because EVE is constantly being upgraded and evolving, we still have to pay for the game, and get a decent spread of SP into many skills, so that when EVE finally DOES inject some content we actually like, we actually have a decent enough skill set to play. I can "level grind" other games, I can't do that to eve.
For example, I would personally love to see structures actually stopping missiles and bullets and laser beams. I think a fight in an asteroid belt or around a station with that mechanic would be awesome, hell, even the ability to eject from a station from more then one exit would be awesome, instead of always ejecting directly into someone's weapons systems.
Ten year old game, with still too many old rules and old mechanics that just get milked over and over.
I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.
There's a difference between a "harsh" and a "********" universe.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
![William Walker William Walker](https://images.evetech.net/characters/394413540/portrait?size=64)
William Walker
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
127
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 07:21:00 -
[72] - Quote
You PvP all the time. Docked or undocked. It's only a matter of time until you explode. pâ+(*GîĆGęçGîĆ*)n+ë pü+(péŁGęçpÇü-¦)pü+ (GůňGÇ+GůňGŁ+) |
![Victoria Sin Victoria Sin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1292878803/portrait?size=64)
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
392
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 07:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
0/10 troll attempt.
OP doesn't know what a carebear is. |
![Inokuma Yawara Inokuma Yawara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93442257/portrait?size=64)
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 10:10:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vincent R'lyeh wrote:What this thread needs is more beards
Nah, I think it needs more cow bell....
Watch this space.-á New exciting signature in development. |
![Alavaria Fera Alavaria Fera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91492021/portrait?size=64)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3875
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 11:59:00 -
[75] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that. The stargate feels used and violated each time a ship breaks into it's warp tunnel.
It wants you to die, but unless it's in lowsec/highsec it can't shoot you.... unless you do something naughty. So instead the gates just toss you through and hope you die and don't ever come back. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over. Fountain will never fall. Deklein by September. Thought is not heresy, wrong thought is.
PL, NC., N3, Tribe, 401k, you are our only hope ! ~TEST2013 |
![Jorden Ishonen Jorden Ishonen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/128217743/portrait?size=64)
Jorden Ishonen
Kinetic Technologies
87
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 12:06:00 -
[76] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.
There's a difference between a "harsh" and a "********" universe.
Why the hell would they give a ****? You're an immortal demigod that is essentially a living mile-long piece of metal and care as much about baseliners and we do about ant colonies. What do they care if you lose your cargo, your ship, your clone? Let the capsuleers kill each other, keeps them busy. |
![Jenn aSide Jenn aSide](https://images.evetech.net/characters/241523665/portrait?size=64)
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2440
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 12:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:
A lot of you seem to miss the point that many people - me included atm - do not find the base EVE combat mechanics all that entertaining, yet we have the problem that because EVE is constantly being upgraded and evolving, we still have to pay for the game, and get a decent spread of SP into many skills, so that when EVE finally DOES inject some content we actually like, we actually have a decent enough skill set to play. I can "level grind" other games, I can't do that to eve.
-snip-
Ten year old game, with still too many old rules and old mechanics that just get milked over and over.
You're exactly the type of person I'm always talking about.
You don't like EVE, but keep playing it because "one day it MIGHT be good". That attitude is what we call (where I'm from), "5 beers short of a 6-pack".
Why does someone who doesn't even like the game play it? I mean really, you're complaining about "having" to pay for EVE because it's evolving and you "need" to have a "decent spread of SP" on the off chance CCP adds something you do like.
Why don't you do both us and yourself a favor and explore one of the hundreds of other games that are out there and find something you actually like, while those of us who actually LIKE EvE can stay here playing out outdated 10 year old game.....
As an aside, I tend to reject "guilt by association". you know, the "the guy is a goon so he must be bad" thing. It's usually not true.
But i'll be damned if I can remember a single CVA poster that wasn't cracked.... |
![Herzog Wolfhammer Herzog Wolfhammer](https://images.evetech.net/characters/805810401/portrait?size=64)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3170
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:55:00 -
[78] - Quote
Emergent play that those touting emergent play would not suspect and are certainly not happy with.
The walls are down, people are not "allowed" to do this - yet in the sandbox, they are, and getting good at it.
Get out of your boxes. |
![Combat Jacque Combat Jacque](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92462099/portrait?size=64)
Combat Jacque
Department of Defence Brothers of Tangra
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 20:57:00 -
[79] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:I just recently posted in GD with a link to a plan I had to get some of the group that I know to do something different, that being basically making a private fight club and custom content, and I did that because I kept seeing posts like the OP quite a bit, that try to get players to do things they normally don't, but not because I wanted players to take more "risks", but because I simply wanted them to log on more often and do thing here in EVE, rather then what they do now, which is a little bit of EVE and a ton of Facebook games.
A lot of you seem to miss the point that many people - me included atm - do not find the base EVE combat mechanics all that entertaining, yet we have the problem that because EVE is constantly being upgraded and evolving, we still have to pay for the game, and get a decent spread of SP into many skills, so that when EVE finally DOES inject some content we actually like, we actually have a decent enough skill set to play. I can "level grind" other games, I can't do that to eve.
For example, I would personally love to see structures actually stopping missiles and bullets and laser beams. I think a fight in an asteroid belt or around a station with that mechanic would be awesome, hell, even the ability to eject from a station from more then one exit would be awesome, instead of always ejecting directly into someone's weapons systems.
Ten year old game, with still too many old rules and old mechanics that just get milked over and over.
I don't care how legal and effective gate camping is, it should simply not be possible in an era where we fly starships through deep space, to have a super advanced remote Stargate that is unable to report back and tell me there's 20 Tornado's parked 50Km off to one side that have just killed the last 5 ships flying through, or that make ships appear always inside the radius of a single bubble centered on the gate. Also, seriously? The Stargate can't send a message like "Warning: Bubble on the gate"?. Frak that.
There's a difference between a "harsh" and a "********" universe.
Maybe you should find a game you like. |
![Kaarous Aldurald Kaarous Aldurald](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91819847/portrait?size=64)
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1118
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:17:00 -
[80] - Quote
Quote:There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks.
Those people are wrong. They should in fact, quit this game and go crowdfund Star Citizen or X Rebirth or some other single player game.
The rest of us can continue to play our MMO where we aren't allowed to bury our heads in the sand and pretend other people don't exist. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
|
![Josef Djugashvilis Josef Djugashvilis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017474451/portrait?size=64)
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1419
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:EVE is dying...
TEST is dying. This is not a signature. |
![Charles Panzram Charles Panzram](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93867151/portrait?size=64)
Charles Panzram
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:23:00 -
[82] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:Aemonchichi wrote:easy **** ^^ carebears close their accounts and the die hard pvpers are ****** 8) cause 90% of those die hard pvper are just gankers in fact, that pvp vs mining barges n stuff, so i would dream to see eve minus carebears -> gankers gettin butt hurt by real pvpers and soon they follow the carebears
and whoopee no second decade cause eve wont work without carebears, but that is a lesson ccp has to learn themselves, listening isnt their strength, never was never will be What is this absurd notion of a "real pvper" you have? Shooting some scrub in a mining barge is as real and valid as engaging a supercap fleet. PVP is PVP. Carebears like to imply, through the use of the term "real pvp", that PVP done against them specifically is somehow less valid, less ~honourable~, etc but ... I think it's just bs they use to make themselves feel better about the poor (for the situation they found themselves in) decisions they made themselves. It's very dishonest to claim PVP you don't like isn't "real".
Lol thats like saying punching a toddler is as real and valid a fist fight as fighting someone of your own weight class.
How old are you? 12? A gank is a gank don-¦t call it PvP just to find some self-justification to feel better about it.
|
![Anomaly One Anomaly One](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93878124/portrait?size=64)
Anomaly One
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
59
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 21:32:00 -
[83] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks. Those people are wrong. They should in fact, quit this game and go crowdfund Star Citizen or X Rebirth or some other single player game. The rest of us can continue to play our MMO where we aren't allowed to bury our heads in the sand and pretend other people don't exist.
other people don't exist, they are just cannon fodder npc who generate tears occasionally.
A bot with tear generation implemented one might say |
![Kaarous Aldurald Kaarous Aldurald](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91819847/portrait?size=64)
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1123
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
Anomaly One wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks. Those people are wrong. They should in fact, quit this game and go crowdfund Star Citizen or X Rebirth or some other single player game. The rest of us can continue to play our MMO where we aren't allowed to bury our heads in the sand and pretend other people don't exist. other people don't exist, they are just cannon fodder npc who generate tears occasionally. A bot with tear generation implemented one might say
Given how I have found that carebear insults tend to repeat themselves after enough time, this idea might have merit. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
![Herzog Wolfhammer Herzog Wolfhammer](https://images.evetech.net/characters/805810401/portrait?size=64)
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3500
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 22:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
Oh great. Another one of these threads.
If I could go back in time, I would put on a Hilmar disguise and change two things about this game.
First, there would never have been such a thing as a miner. There would have been mining though. But all mining operations would be NPC-controlled ships that the players would commission and deploy. And these ships would be like the NPC haulers we see going to and from stations: anybody could pop them. Except you could be flagged red to the owner of the mining ship you popped. There would be none of this miners versus people trained specifically to kill unarmed ships thing. Presently it's like putting Cessnas up against helicopter gunships. So people interested in mining would not actually have had to mine, only be PVPers ready to defend their mining ops.
The other thing that would have changed is that all missions would have a PVP element to them such that anything goes in deadspace, but with the same limitations that the initial mission runner had for mission. Therefore if someone warps into the mission with the intent of killing the mission runner - which could happen anywhere - the NPCs would reinforce their numbers to match the addition and with aggro towards the newcomer. So when Mr Gank goes in for his killmail with his PVP ship, he has just as much trouble with the NPCs as the mission runner would have with the PVP ship.
Those two things would have put a permanent PVP element across the board so nobody gets a chance to be averse to it, but nobody gets to shoot fish in a barrel either.
And in the end, every thread like this boils down to people wanting easy ganks. Ganks have to be asked for. Carebears who want easy ISK already got it - even those who go into nullsec can get that thanks to local. But PVPers, having emptied lowsec of everybody except those who can fight back, have to come in here and guilt trip CCP into making it somehow easier to kill people and make demands of the usual "force people into my camp" routine.
And for one "side" needing the other. Whatever. |
![Seven Koskanaiken Seven Koskanaiken](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91384710/portrait?size=64)
Seven Koskanaiken
Under the Wings of Fury Atrocitas
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.09 23:01:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP are brahma, the creator. Carebears are narayan, the preserver. PVPers are shiva, the destroyer. All exist as one in the cause and foundation of the universe. Transcend the paradigm to achieve enlightenment.
Everyone must fulfill their karma.
Ommmmmmmmmm. |
![Renault T'Bonin Renault T'Bonin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93772870/portrait?size=64)
Renault T'Bonin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 03:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
Grrrrrr..... Sometimes I think those who post in these threads know nothing about either PVP, PVE, or industry.
I'm not going to address the PVP side. And I still support the curtailing of ganking committed against new players.
But...
As far as industry is concerned: We have the tools we need to get the job done. Whining industrialists are simply whining, just like the whining PVP faction.
If you cannot fit a mining barge, build a fleet, and setup duties to protect yourself in high sec as a miner- Quit EVE. Please. You do not have the intellectual capacity for the game.
Every EVE player loses ships. That includes PVE and industrial people. Get used to it.
Flying a hulk outside of null sec is painfully stupid. Flying an untanked industrial is painfully stupid. Autopilot is stupid. 9 billion isk in a freighter is beyond stupid.
Look, if you are a PVE guy.... fit for PVP not PVE and do lower level missions until you can get better ships, or a decent overkill gang together to support you. If you are in industry... it's hard... you have to train for everything the PVP guys do, plus the industrial skills.
The hardest job in EVE is that of an industrialist. That's because the rewards are IMMENSE.
Learn how to play the game.
To be a successful "carebear" you must have the mind of a pirate. |
![Erotica 1 Erotica 1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91919239/portrait?size=64)
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations Self Sabatoge
1370
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:19:00 -
[88] - Quote
We commonly use the term "carebear" not to describe the type of player, but to identify people who have been inflicted with a terrible psychological disease of bot aspirancy. Symptoms include slurred speech and delusions of having powerful friends. These poor souls are not capable of engaging in emergent gameplay when they have this disease. They can only emerge from this state into a higher plane of existence that we like to refer to as the "normal person."
The primary treatment for this disease is to have caring individuals administer what is known as the "gank" procedure. Sometimes multiple treatments are necessary to expunge the disease from the mind. Other times, the disease has taken such a firm hold that there is no hope. But eventually these long gone souls will quit the game and blame the treatment instead of the disease.
The "gank" procedure is not a cheap cure. Many large organizations and philanthropists with deep pockets have poured isk and time into the research and development of more advanced forms of treatment.
The best way to help, if you are not qualified to administer the treatment yourself, is to invest in the future research and wide scale adminstation. You can find instructions on the website for the leading organization in this fight against bot aspirancy at www.minerbumping.com
With your help, we can wipe out this plague from the universe. It takes as little as 10 million isk per treatment, so any amounts are helpful. At the 100m level, you will be able to help in the removal of the "orca" tumors as well, which are a particularly nasty variant. If everyone could invest 1 billion isk in this fight for the cure, we could rid the universe of this disease forever. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
![John Tomplin John Tomplin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91095053/portrait?size=64)
John Tomplin
EVE University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:35:00 -
[89] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote: We commonly use the term "carebear" not to describe the type of player, but to identify people who have been inflicted with a terrible psychological disease of bot aspirancy.
I would also add the note about Its counterpart, termed PVPism by fans, or in its extreme form just swear words Is the normal growth of aggressive thoughts and tendencies towards others that can only be acted out through electronics and an internet connection. Periods of intense PVPing without sleep following by a prolonged sequelae of carebearism are associated with bi-carebearism, a debilitating illness.
___________________________________________________ http://thearchertheteacher.blogspot.ca/ |
![Josef Djugashvilis Josef Djugashvilis](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1017474451/portrait?size=64)
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1419
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 04:46:00 -
[90] - Quote
The term 'pvper' could be used to identify people who think that they are a part of an elite subsection of a niche game. This is not a signature. |
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![Shederov Blood Shederov Blood](https://images.evetech.net/characters/899520051/portrait?size=64)
Shederov Blood
Wrecketeers
513
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 05:15:00 -
[91] - Quote
Combat Jacque wrote:Maybe you should find a game you like. I thought thread looked old. Where'd you find it, page 64? |
![Erotica 1 Erotica 1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91919239/portrait?size=64)
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations Self Sabatoge
1371
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 06:59:00 -
[92] - Quote
Shederov Blood wrote:Combat Jacque wrote:Maybe you should find a game you like. I thought thread looked old. Where'd you find it, page 64?
Necroposting protip: Start at the very oldest threads. Keep moving foward until you find one that is not locked. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
![Tuggboat Tuggboat](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1428901230/portrait?size=64)
Tuggboat
Oneida Inc.
32
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 07:10:00 -
[93] - Quote
I hope to say something intelligent here and hereby close this thread.
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:CCP are brahma, the creator. Carebears are narayan, the preserver. PVPers are shiva, the destroyer. All exist as one in the cause and foundation of the universe. Transcend the paradigm to achieve enlightenment.
Everyone must fulfill their karma.
Ommmmmmmmmm.
Here is a nugget but only a nugget. There are in fact many paradigms on which emergent gameplay could be developed. Since our own creativity is limited to at best the combination of two known disciplines into a new third, to create requires mastery of at least two of the many disciplines available in Eve.
In this example the discipline of preserving is given a name and then combined with a second name destroyer as a cause to create a foundation. That's a valid religious combinatorial paradigm.
Our more familiar risk versus reward theory is very similar to Clausewitz's Rationale Calculus of War. In this paradigm the destroyers are given the term military and the preservers would be called citizens. The destructive PVPers are insurgents trying to occupy preserving citizens. The hope of maintaining any new creation is the creation of terms both can live with. Anything less results in an unstable created foundation.
But to only consider the two disciplines of destruction and preservation is to sell eve very short. I can think of at LEAST to other paradigms each with many disciplines that can be combined into an emergent creation, stable or unstable.
The two paradigms I would consider are the business model and the storyline. There business model idea can be as varied as many novel income streams and complex models of idealistic and mathematics can be shaped within the confines of the game tools and 3rd party tools external to the game.
The storyline we are of course familiar with. We have backstory for structure. Some of it was created by CCP even more has emerged in game. Conflicts between characters, factions and stakeholders can combine with a steady stream of game updates to create new stories and powers. In game tools for this are very limited but people familiar with creative writing or screenplay production can sketch these rather quickly into new channels for others efforts.
I'd love to here of more paradigms like this or even detailed listings of disciplines. Mastery of a discipline are often undervalued resources we often possess. Other disciplines often provide motives to act. Combinations of these two can create a new game of our own making.
Before I close, capital and social circles are always present if creation is to bare real fruit. We need a lot of money and more than a few friends. |
![Susurrus Synaesthesia Susurrus Synaesthesia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90543832/portrait?size=64)
Susurrus Synaesthesia
Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 07:49:00 -
[94] - Quote
Jeez, who regenerated this mess.
I regretted making this thread the second I posted it.
Let's let this return to the grave where it belongs. |
![Decian Cor Decian Cor](https://images.evetech.net/characters/93679900/portrait?size=64)
Decian Cor
The Tall Order Angeli Mortis
1
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 08:40:00 -
[95] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Fun fact.
You are also more likely to be involved in a road accident than ganked unless you do something stupid.
You are also much less likely to be involved in a road accident than getting ganked if you're busy playing EvE.
Doh. "There is no good and evil. There is only power, and those too weak to seek it." |
![Trii Seo Trii Seo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91124882/portrait?size=64)
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
187
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 09:23:00 -
[96] - Quote
Each time I hear the "Ganking unarmed ship unfair bawww" thing I laugh.
Many players risk their ships for income. The rat in null security space. They explore into hostile lands. They provide content to those who hunt them and many times die doing so.
Hisec carebears sit in riskless environment and either operate the ISK faucet valves (L4/Incursions) or gouge us on ship/fuel prices (Mining).
It is only, only valid we stick it to the man sometimes. Remind him Somalia is a place and evil people in boats with Kalashnikovs and Stingers will come for you if you've got too much cash or look too gankable to resist. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?
Covert pilots unite! Safer working conditions, less accidental limb loss due to unfortunate Cyno accidents! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=258986 |
![March rabbit March rabbit](https://images.evetech.net/characters/2062530289/portrait?size=64)
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
794
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 09:53:00 -
[97] - Quote
Susurrus Synaesthesia wrote:So here is my challenge to the EVE community: How could carebears fight the PvPers in a way that did not involve actually blowing them up? - gathering more ISK thus making inflation and making PvP more expensive and less affordable? - docking and playing other games thus making CCP think what to do?
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![March rabbit March rabbit](https://images.evetech.net/characters/2062530289/portrait?size=64)
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
794
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 10:07:00 -
[98] - Quote
Andski wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:The only risk in suicide ganking the 30B ISK officer-fit marauder in a hisec mission hub is that the loot fairy will look upon you unkindly.
So you mean that it's just like market trading where you risk losing your investment and not getting any return? There are so many holes in the "suicide ganking is risk-free" whine. I thought you'd be smarter than that. 1) you ALWAYS get something at the end. be it killmail, hatemail, loot or tears 2) your logic can lead to "shooting monument at Jita is risky: each shot your gun produces makes damage which depends of RNG".
Yes, "so many holes".... |
![Mra Rednu Mra Rednu](https://images.evetech.net/characters/156771469/portrait?size=64)
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard
386
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 10:18:00 -
[99] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Anomaly One wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Quote:There are also likely carebears who play the game in their limited free time, enjoy some of its less adrenaline motivated aspects and who truly like playing a game without any risks. Those people are wrong. They should in fact, quit this game and go crowdfund Star Citizen or X Rebirth or some other single player game. The rest of us can continue to play our MMO where we aren't allowed to bury our heads in the sand and pretend other people don't exist. other people don't exist, they are just cannon fodder npc who generate tears occasionally. A bot with tear generation implemented one might say Given how I have found that carebear insults tend to repeat themselves after enough time, this idea might have merit. Charles Panzram wrote:Lol thats like saying punching a toddler is as real and valid a fist fight as fighting someone of your own weight class.
How old are you? 12? A gank is a gank don-¦t call it PvP just to find some self-justification to feel better about it.
Well, I very much doubt that many toddlers play EVE, for starters. Second, by definition it is PvP. It is action that a player took against (versus, if you will) another player. The only way it's not PvP is if they admit that they were botting (and thus, the controller of the ship destroyed was not actually a player). In which case, the New Order guys are completely right about everything.
Actually by the definition you provide it is PaP ( player against player ) PvP would require both players to fight each other.
So ganking is PaP unless the gankee fired back at which point it is PvP even if the gankee was doing PvE at the time. |
![Velicitia Velicitia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/202602168/portrait?size=64)
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1666
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 10:55:00 -
[100] - Quote
Mra Rednu wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:(lots of quoting). Actually by the definition you provide it is PaP ( player against player ) PvP would require both players to fight each other. So ganking is PaP unless the gankee fired back at which point it is PvP even if the gankee was doing PvE at the time.
Really, it's more a question of "the right word" to be used, since "versus" and "against" are synonymous.
Furthermore, "versus" directly references "against" as its main definition -- that is, "versus" is a specific usage of the word "against" to denote some form of a contest/struggle where one party in the action is considered "human" (e.g. "United States vs. Some Bad Guy" or "Army vs. Navy" or "Chilean Miner vs. Collapsed Mine Shaft*" or "Player vs. Player"). "Against" is generally used in situations where the thing being modified is a general noun or verb ("Rain beating against a window", "Surviving against all odds", "Leaning against a wall", "10 votes against 5", "Protection against gankers")
*OK, maaaaybe not this one ... it's early still.
And here I am using 7th grade English. Maybe it wasn't as much a waste as I thought ... ![Roll](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_roll.png) One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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![embrel embrel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/624435762/portrait?size=64)
embrel
BamBam Inc.
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 11:27:00 -
[101] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:It's very dishonest to claim PVP you don't like isn't "real".
it's virtual in most cases. |
![Erotica 1 Erotica 1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91919239/portrait?size=64)
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations Self Sabatoge
1378
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 13:47:00 -
[102] - Quote
Decian Cor wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Fun fact.
You are also more likely to be involved in a road accident than ganked unless you do something stupid.
You are also much less likely to be involved in a road accident than getting ganked if you're busy playing EvE. Doh.
Unless you are driving down the road while playing Eve on your laptop. I know a guy that did that. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
![Alavaria Fera Alavaria Fera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91492021/portrait?size=64)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4802
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 15:10:00 -
[103] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote:Decian Cor wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Fun fact.
You are also more likely to be involved in a road accident than ganked unless you do something stupid.
You are also much less likely to be involved in a road accident than getting ganked if you're busy playing EvE. Doh. Unless you are driving down the road while playing Eve on your laptop. I know a guy that did that. What if you're afk cloaking. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
![Alavaria Fera Alavaria Fera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91492021/portrait?size=64)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4802
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 15:13:00 -
[104] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Andski wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:The only risk in suicide ganking the 30B ISK officer-fit marauder in a hisec mission hub is that the loot fairy will look upon you unkindly.
So you mean that it's just like market trading where you risk losing your investment and not getting any return? There are so many holes in the "suicide ganking is risk-free" whine. I thought you'd be smarter than that. 1) you ALWAYS get something at the end. be it killmail, hatemail, loot or tears 2) your logic can lead to "shooting monument at Jita is risky: each shot your gun produces makes damage which depends of RNG". Yes, "so many holes".... I guess you can loot our own wreck if you're enough of a bad ganker to not kill the target There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
![Malcolm Shinhwa Malcolm Shinhwa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/92774904/portrait?size=64)
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
407
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:17:00 -
[105] - Quote
Without the possibility of some bad guy performing random violence on your ship, you're left with only PvE in an MMO with absolutely the worst PvE of any MMO. Pirates need targets. Industrialists need a challenge. Its a symbiotic relationship. Hey CCP, please slush my fund like you did for SOMER Blink. |
![Erotica 1 Erotica 1](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91919239/portrait?size=64)
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations Self Sabatoge
1381
|
Posted - 2013.10.10 16:24:00 -
[106] - Quote
No, Alavaria, this guy was most assuredly not afk cloaking. He is a famous bot aspirant miner who has over 100 accounts. Thankfully he did not get into an accident because then people would say something like "grrr goons" See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
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