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John Quicksilver	Posted - 2005.10.27 20:36:00 - [421] Hi Tux, i've just read this entire thread and i found one post that interested me greatly, i was just wondering if you could reply to what they guy said cause i'm curious 2. Quote: Nyxus Black Lance NBSI Alliance Posted - 2005.10.25 15:35:00 - [375] - Quote Destroyers - the Coercer needs help Well I have already shown some numbers on why the BC's need some agility and signature love. Now let's take a look at the Destroyers to see why the Coercer is a bit sub-par, to put it mildly. All armor, CPU, and Guns fittings are based on max fitting skills. All weapon fitting needs are based on max weapons ie; 8 turrets or 7 turrets and one launcher First lets look at the base stats. As you can see, they all seem really balanced. Each Destroyer is a mirror to the other. No Tux has seen into one of the major problems of the Destroyer MK1. By giving it a built in optimal bonus the Destroyer's sphere of fire is big enough to engage Inties and Frigates outside of scrambling range since a fast moving frigate will dictate said range. So let's look at the Destroyers fitted with the longest T1 guns. Med Beams, 280's, and 150's. Neuts were not used in this comparison as we are showing long range, but thier fittings are similar to 150's. Here the problem is clear. While Destroyers have almost identical stats and mirror slots, the Coercer needs an MAPC to fit the T1 guns, while the Thrasher has 11 grid extra. In frigate fittings this is HUGE. No other Destroyer has problems fitting T1 weapons to the extent that the Coercer has. Consider also that the Thrasher and Cormorant can easily drop thier launcher to gain even more grid leftover for fittings. Now let's look at T2 long range guns. The Thrasher and Cormorant use 7 t2 guns with a t2 launcher, while the Coercer and Catalyst use 8 t2 guns. The problem is merely exacerbated. The poor Coercer has to use 4 MAPC's just to have some grid to fit anything else, while the other 3 Destroyers need only one MAPC to fit all T2 weapons and decent loadout. The Coercer needs more grid in order to be balanced. About 75 grid to be precise. The Thrasher and Catalyst have 1 less turret and more mids for flexibility, while the Coercer and Catalyst have fewer mids and one more turret. Any ship like the Coercer and Retribution are going to be severely hampered in PvP by the lack of mids, but the complete inability to fit a load of long range lasers renders the Coercer to the scrap heap. It needs to be addressed. On a more personal opinion, I think the Thrasher and Cormorant should have the same slot layout, and the Coercer and Catalyst should have the same slot layout. 1 low slot, or 1 mid slot on a frigate removes so much of the ability to fit your ship for PvP as to render the entire ship marginal at best. Let the variety come from the weapons. On frigates, slots are at such a premium and 1 slot can literally make or break a ship (look at the rifter). It doesn't matter that the Gallent/Amarr one or the Matari/Caldari one would have the same slot layout. At least they would all be USEFUL. And tbh that is more important. Now i personaly think that is a very well thoughtout argument and very convincing, i was just hoping you could reply. No flame/grief etc intended, just thought i would draw your attension to one of the best posts in this thread EDIT: of that didn't work very well, if you could look at the original post it has some spread sheets with figures on it.
Andouus La	Posted - 2005.10.27 22:06:00 - [422] Edited by: Andouus La on 27/10/2005 22:09:48 Edited by: Andouus La on 27/10/2005 22:08:48 Originally by: DezzerethAgain, in a bit more direct way this time, since this has come up again: These proposed changes are bad for the diversity and sanity of the ships in game and I officially declare them suckie! Bury this deep, very deep and please don't even think about doing a 3rd version![/quote Have you whent on sisi and tested the proposed changes? Cuz I dont relay to what your saying. Yes the thorax drone bay is nerfed. Heard of the drone bay to the armageddon being changed (maybe overheard wrong but someone mentionned that too going from 30 heavy drones to a whole lot less). Calderis got some love. Mataris have their frigs bonus to speed nerfed. Some good some bad. There is some good for shield tanking and armor tank making pvp somewhat more fun. Lot's of stuff to checked and tested, but before making speedy negative comments (witch I did also in the past... sad to say) go in the test server, check what is in the package and make comments after making clear first hand on testing. The test server sole purpose is to be able to verify what the changes are about, dev blogs and forums proposals for discussions and ideas after checking stuff up or at least taking peak to what is proposed here. I've took a peak at the mk2 rifter and compared it to the actual rifter and seems to be nerferd alot. That was kinda disapointing. Will check again what is good about it.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2005.10.28 03:45:00 - [423] The Probe was an awesome little cargo frigate - a ship that had a primary role it was widely used for outside of combat, this is being changed to a "scout" frigate and will likely not be used anywhere near as much in that role as cargo frigate (and it probably will still be used as a cargo frigate albeit not as much since one of the three or so stats that really matter in that role has been fairly noticeably reduced) Vigil was the games primary tackler frigate bar none, very widely used in that role, thing is as a tackler it fits tackling and speed modules first and any weapons are after-thoughts to fill fitting/slots, as such taking away the speed bonus and adding a damage bonus is like taking a wheel off a car and adding go faster stripes . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Almighty Minmatar	Posted - 2005.10.28 11:23:00 - [424] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Originally by: Elve Sorrow Why do the Amarr not have an EWAR frigate? Or the Gallente for that matter. And where'd the Amarr Scout go? And i hate to break it to you Tuxford, but 2 medslots is only barely 'tackler'. It would still never be used because it's just outclassed by way too many ships. Needs a third medslot. Elve, all the tackling frigates listed their have two med slots. I dont think their meant to be uber tacklers. Just simple cheap warp fast warp scramblers for new guys. Although i still think the damage bonuses on all of them should be replaced with warp speed increase (or warp scramble cap usage, or basically something tackly, might lead them to be used in fleets :) I wish this would happen sometimes, but it will never be like that until something is done about the annoyingly overpowered heavy nosferatus, I'm fine with them vs bs, but vs frigs it's just daft... Maybe implementing tracking on them would be good, or make them suck less cap from smaller targets. Something has to be done about them! I'm not saying I want to pwn any BS out there in a 1v1 with my sweet, sweet Wolf. Just that I don't want to get torn apart in seconds since I'm all out of cap just because there happens to be a certain module made to be used against targets of the same size but still it works even better on smaller ones. Is this because of the series of nerfs on interceptors back in Castor? Hellooo, we're living in the Exodus century now!
Alexander Kiernov	Posted - 2005.10.28 11:31:00 - [425] Verifying the above edit. ------------------------------------------
Svett	Posted - 2005.10.28 11:57:00 - [426] please do not take a low slot away from the arbitrator
danneh	Posted - 2005.10.28 12:41:00 - [427] Edited by: danneh on 28/10/2005 12:41:26 Give the Augoror a mining bonus, that should make the new amarrian players happy.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2005.10.28 12:51:00 - [428] The use of nos has increased due to frigs being OVERPOWERED against battleships and this being the only module that can be used to defend against small targets effectively. Without this module a raven would be able to be killed by a handfull of frigates due to the crap nature of missles. Nos is not overpowered just stay out of range beside iirmc you can warp even without cap so should be able to escape just not attack. I could be wrong about this last bit though

Tuxford	Posted - 2005.10.28 14:58:00 - [429] Added a med slot to the Rifter it had one less slot than the other combat ships. Giving it a high slot increased it's damage output a bit to much so we decided on a med one. _______________

Theola	Posted - 2005.10.28 15:07:00 - [430] Originally by: Almighty Minmatar Edited by: Almighty Minmatar on 28/10/2005 11:51:29 Edited by: Almighty Minmatar on 28/10/2005 11:30:17 Edited by: Almighty Minmatar on 28/10/2005 11:28:05 Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Originally by: Elve Sorrow Why do the Amarr not have an EWAR frigate? Or the Gallente for that matter. And where'd the Amarr Scout go? And i hate to break it to you Tuxford, but 2 medslots is only barely 'tackler'. It would still never be used because it's just outclassed by way too many ships. Needs a third medslot. Elve, all the tackling frigates listed their have two med slots. I dont think their meant to be uber tacklers. Just simple cheap warp fast warp scramblers for new guys. Although i still think the damage bonuses on all of them should be replaced with warp speed increase (or warp scramble cap usage, or basically something tackly, might lead them to be used in fleets :) I wish this would happen sometimes, but it will never be like that until something is done about the annoyingly overpowered heavy nosferatus, I'm fine with them vs bs, but vs frigs it's just daft... Maybe implementing tracking on them would be good, or make them suck less cap from smaller targets. Something has to be done about them! I'm not saying I want to pwn any BS out there in a 1v1 with my sweet, sweet Wolf. Just that I don't want to get torn apart in seconds since I'm all out of cap just because there happens to be a certain module made to be used against targets of the same size but still it works even better on smaller ones. Is this because of the series of nerfs on interceptors back in Castor? Hellooo, we're living in the Exodus century now! EDIT: By the way, the use of nosferatus has seriously increased lately, and there's no defence available for it, just a countermeasure. And what's that you may ask? Well, it's a nosferatu! The thing is that I want a gunfight, not a capfight where the guy with the best cap recharge wins. Sorry for any eventual rant, I got a bit excited typing this... Yarrr! Lastly, I noticed that I accidentally posted with an alt. My main is Alexander Kiernov, hence the "Yarrr!" EDIT234: Corrected some spelling errors, then corrected the corrections etc. I need a new kb... Nos really does not need a nerf, there is a counter to it, fit a cap booster, afterburner away and live to fight another day
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.28 15:10:00 - [431] "Added a med slot to the Rifter it had one less slot than the other combat ships. Giving it a high slot increased it's damage output a bit to much so we decided on a med one." Mhmm... "the new, improved autoplate Rifter; now with the scrambler and web" ouch ouch ouch (nice change ^^
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.28 15:17:00 - [432] Originally by: j0sephine "Added a med slot to the Rifter it had one less slot than the other combat ships. Giving it a high slot increased it's damage output a bit to much so we decided on a med one." Mhmm... "the new, improved autoplate Rifter; now with the scrambler and web" ouch ouch ouch (nice change ^^ yep, thx finally rifter is on pair, and I wont bash it anymore WTB: 200 rifters :D -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.10.28 15:34:00 - [433] Originally by: Tuxford Added a med slot to the Rifter it had one less slot than the other combat ships. Giving it a high slot increased it's damage output a bit to much so we decided on a med one. Your babies = mine. Now lets talk Bellicose :) - Just a simple warrior.
Forsch	Posted - 2005.10.28 16:29:00 - [434] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Your babies = mine. You minnies have always been weird. The Auctoritan Syndicate Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.10.28 16:31:00 - [435] ok let me get this straight. your only doing a minor nerf to the speed of the rifter and in exchange it gets 2 more slots? WTF? then you have the incursus which before patch still played second fiddle to the rifter, which is getting a slight speed boost but is being borderlined nerfed in the fittings department (I still can't find use for that extra powergrid now that the CPU isn't there). and if were playing the slots game right now and if your justification for giving the rifter more was other ships had more than it, Look at the thorax it desperatly needs ethier a mid or a low slot. doesn't really matter which but it does need one. need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more info
Forsch	Posted - 2005.10.28 16:38:00 - [436] Originally by: Tuxford Added a med slot to the Rifter it had one less slot than the other combat ships. Giving it a high slot increased it's damage output a bit to much so we decided on a med one. What about giving the Punisher a 4th turret hardpoint? All t1 assault frigates except for the punisher can fit 4 weapons. And on top, the punisher is sacrificing one bonus for energy turret cap use. The Auctoritan Syndicate Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.28 16:51:00 - [437] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Tuxford Added a med slot to the Rifter it had one less slot than the other combat ships. Giving it a high slot increased it's damage output a bit to much so we decided on a med one. What about giving the Punisher a 4th turret hardpoint? All t1 assault frigates except for the punisher can fit 4 weapons. And on top, the punisher is sacrificing one bonus for energy turret cap use. That isn't a sacrifice. Also, Tristan, for instance, may have 4 weapon systems, but it only gets bonus for two of them and the other two are therefore severely limited in output. In comparison lasers are manufactured with a damage bonus, but needs it's capacitor to be cut. wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.28 16:58:00 - [438] Originally by: Talos Darkhart The use of nos has increased due to frigs being OVERPOWERED against battleships and this being the only module that can be used to defend against small targets effectively. Without this module a raven would be able to be killed by a handfull of frigates due to the crap nature of missles. Nos is not overpowered just stay out of range beside iirmc you can warp even without cap so should be able to escape just not attack. I could be wrong about this last bit though Snort. Try drones. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.28 17:04:00 - [439] "What about giving the Punisher a 4th turret hardpoint? All t1 assault frigates except for the punisher can fit 4 weapons." Incursus gets 3 turrets and nothing else as well; basically, the ships which can fit 4 weapons still do damage similar to that of ships with 3 turrets, being ~half of these weapons are missile launchers with their lower damage output.
Forsch	Posted - 2005.10.28 17:06:00 - [440] Originally by: j0sephine Incursus gets 3 turrets and nothing else as well; basically, the ships which can fit 4 weapons still do damage similar to that of ships with 3 turrets, being ~half of these weapons are missile launchers with their lower damage output. Was looking at the mk2 "assault" frigates (t1). It lists Tristan for the Gallente (with 4 turret/missile slots). The Auctoritan Syndicate Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.10.28 17:18:00 - [441] "Was looking at the mk2 "assault" frigates (t1). It lists Tristan for the Gallente (with 4 turret/missile slots)." It lists both Incursus and Tristan as 'assault' frigates for Gallente ^^ Incursus gets 3 turrets, Tristan gets 2 turrets + 2 missile launchers, which is the equivalent of 3 turrets firepower-wise... i.e. pretty much what i said ^^;;
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.10.28 17:31:00 - [442] Originally by: FalloutBoy ok let me get this straight. your only doing a minor nerf to the speed of the rifter and in exchange it gets 2 more slots? WTF? Well, its speed is nerfed (and it's not a minor nerf), while other frigs get a speed boost. It'll still get lower HP than others, low fitting, and lower max cap. This ship was really in need of these. Currently with its current speed and 2 less slots than the punisher, it's much less survivable and efficient, and it would need an additional slot to compete. With MK2 speed changes, and the added med on merlin and the added launcher HP on tristan, it seems quite right that he gets those 2 slots to get on par with others. And by the way, rifter has been tested for a while with only 1 low added on SiSi, and if Tuxford decided to add another slot (a med), it's certainly because the rifter was still behind others (which has been corroborated by people having tested the 'old' MK2 rifter). Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.10.28 17:41:00 - [443] Originally by: FalloutBoy ok let me get this straight. your only doing a minor nerf to the speed of the rifter and in exchange it gets 2 more slots? WTF? then you have the incursus which before patch still played second fiddle to the rifter, which is getting a slight speed boost but is being borderlined nerfed in the fittings department (I still can't find use for that extra powergrid now that the CPU isn't there). and if were playing the slots game right now and if your justification for giving the rifter more was other ships had more than it, Look at the thorax it desperatly needs ethier a mid or a low slot. doesn't really matter which but it does need one. The Rifter had 2 less slots than the other frigates and now it will have the same slots because its speed advantage has been reduced to match its hit points deficiency and it needs the slots to survive now. The Thorax has the same number of mid and low slots as the Moa and Rupture. The Maller has one more then them but has no drone bay. If you want to reduce the Thorax drone bay to zero then I will support an extra mid/low for it. Otherwise the only possible slot you could ask for would be a utility high slot and thats not very likely either since most drone ships sacrifice a high for their drone bay. As for the CPU on the Incursus, I haven't tried it yet, I'll have to see what fits.
Siri Danae	Posted - 2005.10.28 18:08:00 - [444] Originally by: Sanaen Eydanwadh Originally by: Siri Danae For the sake of roleplay, for the sake of tradition, for the sake of common sense, for the sake of the dozens of people who have asked about this, for the sake of the slaves in Amarr, for the sake of the poor Intaki children who go hungry in Syndicate, please, please take the time to see if a scout navitas/probe and mining probe/imicus might not make more sense oh please indeed... Just reading such things like the Probe being a scout ship (or btw Vigil getting a damage bonus ), is so obviously wrong that it can't even be serious. It makes me imagine this MK2 project as some Devs picking random ships names in a box, picking random "functions" or bonusses in another, and mixing them together while having a drink and say "hmm why not?" ah and since I'm on it, I'll add my stone to the "eh !?" edifice: why the hell removing the speed bonusses on matari frigates? the slight boost to their base speed doesn't compensate, and anyway that's not the same "feel"... If you think they are overpowered because of these speeds (I don't see how they would be?? anyway), enforce their weaknesses, make them even more fragile (), I don't know, but don't erase their specificity !? It doesn't sound like you're sticking to the racial particularities, ships descriptions, and overall background, but just playing with raw numbers and formulae which make little sense by themselves in terms of fun and gameplay... I think its clear at this point Tux is eliminating the speed bonuses, and dead set to it. He wants to take the minmatar fleet in an entirely different direction. I doubt we'll ever forgive him, but I doubt we'll get him to change his mind. Clearly he'd rather balance the rifter by making it more like every other ship. He appears more concerned about the numbers and not the art of combat. But the probe/burst and imicus/navitas adjustments are just blatantly wrong. It needs to be reconsidered, reevaluated and reassessed. It could easily be changed, and it should be. ------ I generally assume the following: 1. 95% of Empire Carebears don't get 0.0 PVPers. 2. 95% of 0.0 PVPers don't get Empire Carebears. 3. 100% of Ore Thieves steal just to upset the Miners.
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:18:00 - [445] i'm sorry the extra slot on the rifter just makes it to powerful. New Rifer Rifter: 4/3/3 125 CPU 37PG 320mps new Incursus 3/3/3 110 CPU 34PG 300mps I'm sorry the rifter is now better in every way compared to the incursus. Many of you are saying that the rifter is more fragile. when your dealing with frigates 10% more hitpoints is nothing and most of the time if your going down you would go down regardless of if you had a few more hitpoints. and onto the fitting issue it makes no sence for a blaster boat to have lower CPU than a autocannon boat. a light neutron blaster uses 20 CPU while the 200mm auto cannon only uses 9. also that same gun also uses less PG than a light nuetron blaster. I'm sorry if you guys don't see this but whats happening to the rifter is making it a damn fine ship (I will prolly fly one when flying on the cheap) but its too powerful compared to the other frigs and will be the only ship you see flying. it will be like the kestrel days when that was the only frig worth flying need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more info
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:28:00 - [446] The rifter is now a close range ship with its 3rd mid. and essentially makes it way to powerful in that roll since its faster than all the frigates in its current form it can dictate range. imagin this and be afraid: 3x200mm Autocannons 1x Rocket Launcher MWD Web Scram small armor rep, 200mm Plate MAPC you know what forget it the more i look at it the more I want to fly it need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more info
CargoCult	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:51:00 - [447] Bellicose - a thought how about a tracking LINK bonus? Problem with target painters as noted is they have to go in close trackling link would keep them a fair way from the action - for a rp point of veiw amma get tracking disruptors, why not enchacer for mimitar only flaw ii it would be helpless without fleet basses support -------------------------------------------------- All the right letters, just not nescacarily in the right order - morcam and wise Its not working sir! Well thump it then
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:59:00 - [448] FalloutBoy: I think you are missing the point that the Tristan is the top of the line Gallente frigate not the Incursus. You are making an invalid comparison. Unfortunately there really isn't a way to compare the Incursus properly because the other races all have a missile boat as the second line assault frigate.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.10.28 20:23:00 - [449] Originally by: FalloutBoy The rifter is now a close range ship with its 3rd mid. and essentially makes it way to powerful in that roll since its faster than all the frigates in its current form it can dictate range. imagin this and be afraid: 3x200mm Autocannons 1x Rocket Launcher MWD Web Scram small armor rep, 200mm Plate MAPC you know what forget it the more i look at it the more I want to fly it Don't forget the higher speed/agility penalty from the plate... "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.10.28 20:34:00 - [450] Edited by: Trelennen on 28/10/2005 20:36:32 Originally by: FalloutBoy i'm sorry the extra slot on the rifter just makes it to powerful. New Rifer Rifter: 4/3/3 125 CPU 37PG 320mps new Incursus 3/3/3 110 CPU 34PG 300mps New Tristan: 4/3/3 125 CPU 38PG 260mps 280 capacitor recharge in 187.5s (3.73 cap/s @ peak, rifter has 3.33 cap/s, less than other MK2 'assault' frigs which all get a boost, with less max cap too). Seems pretty well balanced to me, maybe even the tristan has the edge over the rifter here (total HP before 25% boost = 245 + 275 + 250 = 770, rifter = 215 + 225 + 250 = 690 - after 25% boost it would be 962.5 vs 862.5). edit: modified cap/s values to me accurate with MK2 Quote: dont fly what you cant afford to lose, always have it insured, make sure you can replace it before you take it into 0.0 or any potentially kaboomish situations.

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