| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |

Barbelo Valentinian
Justified Chaos
359
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:22:00 -
[91] - Quote
Dub Step wrote:Feel free to spend several billion on a 100m sp + titan pilot and find out just how wrong you are. You are still going to suck just as bad as you do at the moment.
What matters in PVP is knowledge.
Absolutely spot-on, IMHO.
Which means that in an odd way the OP is right - people who have been playing longer do have an advantage, of sorts. But he's wrong that it's in terms of SP. It's in terms of knowledge built up over years of playing, making mistakes, trying again - getting info from people you play with, experimenting, etc.
That cannot be had by a newbie. SP per "flying something well" is hard capped. A newbie can easily reach that cap for small ships. The newbie will never have the knowledge and experience - that's what corporations are for, so the knowledge and experience can be shared and learned.
But that's just how it should be in an MMO.
|

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
372
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:25:00 -
[92] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:baltec1 wrote: [quote=baltec1]One week into EVE and you can be in a logi ship and loved by your freinds.
Unless you mean T1 logi who's so laughable that nobody shoots him, no.
But t1 logi's are fun as hell now!
You'd be surprised what a gang of all logi could do. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |

Bischopt
Arbitrary Repossession
90
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:28:00 -
[93] - Quote
I get the feeling everything's been covered already but I'll weight in on this issue anyway because I feel strongly about the OP's possible stupidity and definite wrongness.
Let's start with an example: You're in a buffer tanked, ab-fitted (relatively slow) frigate, when suddenly a fast kity frigate shows up and starts warp disrupting you! The fact is, even if you've got a 2003 character with an insane amount of SP, you're gonna die to the kiting frigate because you cannot hit him at all while he's orbiting you outside of your optimal range (and falloff). He can hit you just fine from there and kills you. Your using a '03 character with several hundred million SP. He's using a 2011 character with maybe 20 million SP. He completely destroys you because he's got the right tactics for the fight.
Quote:You have an account created later than 2007-2008? Automatic defeat at every attempt of pvping.
This is an easy one. My main is an '09 character and I've done pretty decently. I'm in the top 1k on battleclinic and the people in my neighbourhood know me, if not personally, by reputation (no, I'm not bragging. I think I'm actually pretty **** at pvp)
SP has very little to do with one's success at PVP. You just suck at it. |

Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:32:00 -
[94] - Quote
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:Dub Step wrote:Feel free to spend several billion on a 100m sp + titan pilot and find out just how wrong you are. You are still going to suck just as bad as you do at the moment.
What matters in PVP is knowledge. Absolutely spot-on, IMHO. Which means that in an odd way the OP is right - people who have been playing longer do have an advantage, of sorts. But he's wrong that it's in terms of SP. It's in terms of knowledge built up over years of playing, making mistakes, trying again - getting info from people you play with, experimenting, etc. That cannot be had by a newbie. SP per "flying something well" is hard capped. A newbie can easily reach that cap for small ships. The newbie will never have the knowledge and experience - that's what corporations are for, so the knowledge and experience can be shared and learned. But that's just how it should be in an MMO.
So it wouldn't hurt to rebalance the skill trees and reduce all benefits from every skill by 50%. I think thats a great idea. To be honest I would remove all skills that increased combat ability so that people were fighting on a more even field. It would make Eve a lot more exciting if it was an even competition skill wise.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |

Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
373
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:It saddens me that I wasted so much time on a game which pretends to be a PvP game, while having no PvP side whatsoever.
Eve "PvP" formula is simple as wood - more SP wins. You have an account created later than 2007-2008? Automatic defeat at every attempt of pvping.
So, my question is, when eve is getting PvP which depends on something other than pure blob of bigger SP? Miners with 30mil SP dying to 1 week old catalyst pilots beg to differ, No pvp sp against some pvp sp. Not an exception to "more SP wins" formula.
Exactly why the typical "sp = win" is a terrible mentality.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |

Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
247
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:36:00 -
[96] - Quote
I remember this exact same post from OP, bout a month or so ago.
As been said, PVP is about equal parts player skills and knowledge, and EVE mechanic SP. The only place where raw SP is the pure determining factor is in stuff like manufacturing and trading. Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
|

Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
518
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:41:00 -
[97] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It saddens me that I wasted so much time on a game which pretends to be a PvP game, while having no PvP side whatsoever.
Eve "PvP" formula is simple as wood - more SP wins. You have an account created later than 2007-2008? Automatic defeat at every attempt of pvping.
So, my question is, when eve is getting PvP which depends on something other than pure blob of bigger SP?
There are some valid points you could make about EVE PVP but more SP being the root of succes is just not one of them.
Winning by overwhelming numbers, perhaps. Having huge amounts of ISK, yeah maybe. Looks like the yellow quafe shirt is more popular than I thought ;) |

Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
So why are SP's so important to people then? People filp out over the idea of not having +3 or +4 learning implants in nevermind the results of clone death. SP total just seems to have so much weight for something that really doesn't matter. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:44:00 -
[99] - Quote
OP, before you get thrown out on your ears for being a massive troll, you should read this, this, and this.
In short: SP does not work the way you think it does. You assume that it scales linearly. It doesn't. You assume that all SP is always relevant. It isn't. You assume that SP is all that determine stats. It isn't.
You also assume that there's a strict GÇ£bigger is betterGÇ¥ progression in ships and equipment GÇö there isn't. Welcome to a paper-scissors-rock game. If you keep getting beaten, try not choosing rock every time.
Corey Fumimasa wrote:So why are SP's so important to people then? It's important to some people, most likely because they are in that frame of mind where they're always chasing the next big thing, and/or where the main draw for them is character progression. Both are often tied to SP. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |

Whim Aqayn
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:45:00 -
[100] - Quote
I agree with the OPs sentiment that PvP should depend on monocles. |

Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
Whiskey Leo wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:It saddens me that I wasted so much time on a game which pretends to be a PvP game, while having no PvP side whatsoever.
Eve "PvP" formula is simple as wood - more SP wins. You have an account created later than 2007-2008? Automatic defeat at every attempt of pvping.
So, my question is, when eve is getting PvP which depends on something other than pure blob of bigger SP? It is only real PvP when you win 
It's only real PvP when each party has a chance. |

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
2144
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:So it wouldn't hurt to rebalance the skill trees and reduce all benefits from every skill by 50%. I think thats a great idea. To be honest I would remove all skills that increased combat ability so that people were fighting on a more even field. It would make Eve a lot more exciting if it was an even competition skill wise.
I'm not wholly against skills simply acting as a prerequisite differentiator, though in the case of EVE it's probably way too late to make such a change.
But even then, though the OP may be a troll, people like him do actually exist, and they'd find something else to whine about. They always do. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:51:00 -
[103] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It's only real PvP when each party has a chance. GǪso like in EVE, then, and completely unlike most other MMOs.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |

bbb2020
Carebears with Attitude
51
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:51:00 -
[104] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Leper ofBacon wrote:When your character gets to that age and you are still getting ganked you will realise how bad you are.
The real decider is numbers. Numbers = more SP = win. Not an exception. And I were not the gankee, I were the ganker. It's just eve has no PvP beyond SPvsSP formula is too annoying. Also, when I get that age, everyone would still get their SP, and my relative age would be still as low as it is now. Eve "PvP" is locked out forever for newer accounts. First: Nice trolling.
Still, this (the highlighted part) is where you're wrong as nobody can train a skill higher than lv5. If a 5 year old player has trained Minmatar frigate to lv5 and you do the same, you are both (SP wice) eaqually good at flying that ship. Granted, he will have have a lot of other skills that help him fit his ship better but he can still only train those skills to lv5, so eventually you will catch up. In the mean time, you might still be able to beat him as pvp in Eve has little to do with SP. It has all to do with knowledge. The Knowledge of how to pvp in Eve style.
This mean knowing how to use the tool (ship) you have at your disposal to hit your opponent at his weakest point. Knowing about fall off, transversal, kitting and a bunch of other stuff. Knowing when to fight and when to run and most importent - how to manually pilot your ship in relation to your apponent.
Think most players that come to the forums and complain about, not being able to pilot the ships personally (from the bridge) and want Eve to be a game where you do "dogfighting" type of pvp, has the same hole in their knowledge about what makes Eve pvp tick.
Sure thing, he might have better skills than you and have better modules on his ship but rest assure, that do NOT mean he knows how to fit his new ship or how to use it in a pvp situation.
Don't give up. Try and try again and everytime - learn from your experience. Learning in a personal matter (not SP wice) is what makes a good Eve player. |

Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:51:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:So why are SP's so important to people then? It's important to some people, most likely because they are in that frame of mind where they're always chasing the next big thing, and/or where the main draw for them is character progression. Both are often tied to SP.
So reducing the effect of skill increase by 50% would be a good way to mitigate any power creep which has occurred. Players still have the same SP and can use the same gear. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 21:57:00 -
[106] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:So reducing the effect of skill increase by 50% would be a good way to mitigate any power creep which has occurred. Players still have the same SP and can use the same gear. Mu. That has pretty much nothing to do with what I said. In fact, what on earth are you talking about?
Also, by design, there is pretty much zero power creep with the EVE skill system.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |

Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
509
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:03:00 -
[107] - Quote
The OP was saying that he had been "out skilled" in combat. I was just thinking that if the advantages of skiling up were reduced a bit then he wouldn't be so outgunned. For instance say every level of gunnery gives 5% increase in damage, if that was reduced to 2.5% then The OP couldn't complain about how much damage the other guy did because they are a bit closer in effective DPS. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:14:00 -
[108] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:The OP was saying that he had been "out skilled" in combat. I was just thinking that if the advantages of skiling up were reduced a bit then he wouldn't be so outgunned. For instance say every level of gunnery gives 5% increase in damage, if that was reduced to 2.5% then The OP couldn't complain about how much damage the other guy did because they are a bit closer in effective DPS. No, he'd complain just the same because the causes for his assumed problem still exist (wellGǪ they exist in his head, not in the game). That's the problem with fantastical claims based on nothing but assumptions and ignorance.
The simple fact of the matter is that the OP is wrong and refuses to actually check whether any of what he believes is true. The solution to that problem is for the OP to realise facts and stop being wrong, not to arbitrarily change the game for no good reason.
Let's have fun with numbers: -+ 553 DPS and 23.2k EHP can be had for 8M SP -+ 648 DPS and 23.7k EHP can be had for 34M SP (same ship and skills as above, just more SP). -+ 1106 DPS and 46.4k EHP can be had for 16M SP (same ship and skills as above, but 2v1).
Conclusion: OP isGǪ let's be very very charitable and just call it misinformed rather than what it really should be called if we were being honest. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |

iskflakes
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:17:00 -
[109] - Quote
SP is irrelevant, ISK is irrelevant, skill is irrelevant, only numbers count. - |

Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
594
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Can't say I disagree with the OP. But then I think EvE's counterintuitive formula is what makes it somewhat successful as a PvP game.
The biggest fears in other PvP games are "Pay to Win", "Gear Gap", and large disparity in SP (XP) levels between new and old players, where new players will never catch the old players. EvE embraces all of these.
The reason I think the formula is successful is because, contrary to what people say, hardly anyone really wants a fair fight. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|

Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:24:00 -
[111] - Quote
bbb2020 wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Leper ofBacon wrote:When your character gets to that age and you are still getting ganked you will realise how bad you are.
The real decider is numbers. Numbers = more SP = win. Not an exception. And I were not the gankee, I were the ganker. It's just eve has no PvP beyond SPvsSP formula is too annoying. Also, when I get that age, everyone would still get their SP, and my relative age would be still as low as it is now. Eve "PvP" is locked out forever for newer accounts. First: Nice trolling. Still, this (the highlighted part) is where you're wrong as nobody can train a skill higher than lv5. If a 5 year old player has trained Minmatar frigate to lv5 and you do the same, you are both (SP wice) eaqually good at flying that ship. Granted, he will have have a lot of other skills that help him fit his ship better but he can still only train those skills to lv5, so eventually you will catch up. In the mean time, you might still be able to beat him as pvp in Eve has little to do with SP. It has all to do with knowledge. The Knowledge of how to pvp in Eve style. This mean knowing how to use the tool (ship) you have at your disposal to hit your opponent at his weakest point. Knowing about fall off, transversal, kitting and a bunch of other stuff. Knowing when to fight and when to run and most importent - how to manually pilot your ship in relation to your apponent. Think most players that come to the forums and complain about, not being able to pilot the ships personally (from the bridge) and want Eve to be a game where you do "dogfighting" type of pvp, has the same hole in their knowledge about what makes Eve pvp tick. Sure thing, he might have better skills than you and have better modules on his ship but rest assure, that do NOT mean he knows how to fit his new ship or how to use it in a pvp situation. Don't give up. Try and try again and everytime - learn from your experience. Learning in a personal matter (not SP wice) is what makes a good Eve player.
That is obviously wrong, since SP allows better ships for enough years to call them EVER. Knowing when to fight and when to run is very simple. Compare SP. I know about falloff, traversal, kiting, and a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't help against severe SP deficit, which was proven over, and over, and over. The best you can do with all that stuff is to escape the higher SP opponent, and that is hardly a win, because he has to do nothing and you got to be universally better prepared to simply avoid loss. |

Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:28:00 -
[112] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Can't say I disagree with the OP. But then I think EvE's counterintuitive formula is what makes it somewhat successful as a PvP game.
The biggest fears in other PvP games are "Pay to Win", "Gear Gap", and large disparity in SP (XP) levels between new and old players, where new players will never catch the old players. EvE embraces all of these.
The reason I think the formula is successful is because, contrary to what people say, hardly anyone really wants a fair fight.
Screw fair. At least give me a chance. I've never seen a single chance to beat higher SP player is a combat situation (I refuse to call barge ganks, blob ganks, and gate camps PvP). |

Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Except piloting skills are skillpoints. No, there is a LOT to proper skill. There is a ton of things to think of and keep track of when entering into a fight (things like radial velocity, slingshot maneuvers, spiraling in, optimal/falloff, among others...).
There are obvious cases where a single low SP pilot WILL defeat the higher SP pilot almost all the time. An assault frigate noob vs. a tier 3 battlecruiser being one example.
But in many more cases the result may be open, as far as ship-type/fit vs other ship-type/fit goes. In these cases both SP and actual piloting skill play a role. In some cases piloting skills > SP. Let's say a frigate fight between a longpoint-kiter and a scram/web-brawler. In such a case piloting skill will trump SP anytime. If the kiter (maybe a Navy Slicer) just hits orbit, he'll lose if the brawler can pull off a proper slingshot maneuvre. Has nothing to do with SP, just with skill. Now if the kiter pays attention he'll switch to manual flying at the proper time and make sure the range initially doesn't grow and (once the brawler executes the turnaround), will immediately reverse vectors.
In other cases SP > piloting skills. Let's say two similiarly fitted buffer-tanked brawling cruisers duking it out. But even here there is a lot of room for error, or even just more kill, depending on the weapon systems in use. It may very well be possible to reduce tracking enough (fly under the guns) by manually orbiting close (<500m).
Also, beyond a few M SP, frig and cruiser fights are practically equal by default. Any dozen million SP beyond that won't help the older char anyway. |

Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:32:00 -
[114] - Quote
Reserved. (double post) |

baltec1
Bat Country
6581
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:34:00 -
[115] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:The OP was saying that he had been "out skilled" in combat.
He has never been in conflict. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:35:00 -
[116] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:That is obviously wrong, since SP allows better ships for enough years to call them EVER. GǪexcept that you don't need more SP to have GǣbetterGǥ ships. In fact, you can have fewer, and worse ships if all you have is more SP.
Quote:I know about falloff, traversal, kiting, and a bunch of other stuff. It doesn't help against severe SP deficit, which was proven wrong over, and over, and over. Fixed. Outflying, outgunning, and generally out-killing people with higher SP is done on a daily basis. Largely because a sever SP deficit doesn't matter much GÇö the game mechanics ensure this.
Quote:Screw fair. At least give me a chance. You already have it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |

Lexar Mundi
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION ORPHANS OF EVE
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:35:00 -
[117] - Quote
I would have given you a 2/10 on the troll O-meter but it seems there are more gullible people than i thought. That bumps you up to maybe a 7/10 on the troll O-meter. |

Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
234
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:37:00 -
[118] - Quote
I remember very clearly the moment when I realized that regardless of how many birthdays I had I was never going to catch up to my older brother. This seemed like an incredibly poor way to run things to me at the time. Granted I was 5. I soon realized that this might be rectified should he die. Though frequently angry with him, I decided formulating plans along these lines might not be the best idea.
I think there are many games that provide an even playing field, immediately and in every occurrence of the game in terms of mechanics. Arcade fighting games are an example of these. They are usually pretty short games, played repeatedly, until that becomes intolerably boring or a new one replaces them.
Like when I was 5, I experience something about the frustration of having toyed with this game when it first came out, having been unable to continue it that time, and now wanting to play... Hence finding myself with the constructed illusion of 'being behind' as if someone else had done all this to me.
Though some aspect of the condition is true, I think it is a false impression. It relies on a few assumptions that seem iffy to me. It constrains the notion of PvP to a one on one, ship to ship conflict... Like an arcade game. Being a noob and all I could be wrong, but this does not seem to me at the center of what EVE is about.
I also wonder about examples of MMO's where the OP thinks this condition about which OP is complaining does not exist? Often an MMO will introduce a new 'race' or class as part of an expansion which is designed to allow new players to 'catch up' in some way. The very first EQ expansion was intended to do this. Of course this pissed off the established player base. There were others who simply played the new 'races' and classes and beat up on new players anyway. My own experience is that such moves usually dilute the game and begin a kind of horrible regression of challenging play in the game. For the most part I think what then OP is complaining about exists in all other MMO's. Because they usually have level caps, it is encountered in lesser and different ways.
I also think what the OP is suggesting is simply not true. Go sort through the Belligerent Undesirables site. One of the things you will find is many examples of BU players spawning new alts and at just a few weeks into the game reeking havoc. Some of this is awoxing and such, but there are also examples of very low SP alts simply tearing through a variety of higher SP, superior ship opponents. It is interesting. It is based on that the player has a vastly superior understanding of the mechanics and such things as piloting.
Additionally, I suspect there is an SP threshold where my investment in ship to ship skills starts to flatten out in terms of in-game effect. Skills start to be about command ships and very specialized roles, etc., etc. It would be interesting to see this plotted. These specialized roles, meant for fleet doctrines and such, do not function the same way in single ship to ship conflicts. If true, this means we get more effect per SP early on if we are not imagining fighting our Frigate against a T3 ship and such, and it is therefore possible to 'catch up' to some extent.
I simply assume that I am now always at a disadvantage and that this is not likely to change greatly. In that disadvantage I fear the experienced pilot over the SP pilot. OP could test this out by using the CCP mechanism fully in place for this. OP could simply go buy a high SP character in the bazaar. The cost represents the amount of time that the seller has invested (and which the buyer has not). OP could then take out their shiny new SP monster and would presumably win almost every fight. Presumably they might see some difference, but if you scour the forums you will find examples of people who have done this who are mightily confused about how they possibly could have lost in some situation. You have to look for a gap between their SP and knowledge of the game, represented by the questions they are asking. Private sig. Do not read. |

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
198
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:37:00 -
[119] - Quote
SOOoooo...what did you loose?
And can I have your stuff? |

Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:37:00 -
[120] - Quote
Lexar Mundi wrote:I would have given you a 2/10 on the troll O-meter but it seems there are more gullible people than i thought. That bumps you up to maybe a 7/10 on the troll O-meter.
Knowing it is trolling doesn't mean you do not answer. There are newbie-lurkers who'll get the wrong impression if troll isn't properly debunked. |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |