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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.10.24 09:49:00 -
[1]
I just read about the intradictors, which will be warp distrupting destroyers, and we already have warp bubbles. This mean that players in EVE will have several ways to counter an improved warp that lands you right on top of the gate.
With this in mind, isnt it time to improve warp so that you can warp right on top to the gate, which will make insta BMs redundant and we can all delete them.
To me, instas seems like an exploit (although I use them myself ofcourse), and if we could get a system that makes them redundant it would be great. It would also lower server load.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.10.24 09:54:00 -
[2]
So, your solution to people using bookmarks to land on top of gates is to just allow everyone to land on top of gates without bookmarks?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.10.24 09:56:00 -
[3]
What a novel idea, replacing something that is really broken with something that's even more broken..
[23]
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Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.10.24 09:58:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Discorporation
What a novel idea, replacing something that is really broken with something that's even more broken..
Nope, fix whats broken so that people dont have to use exploits.
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Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
So, your solution to people using bookmarks to land on top of gates is to just allow everyone to land on top of gates without bookmarks?
The solution is to make bookmarks redundant, so that people dont have to use them.
I mean, why should people who use an obvious exploit have advantages over people who dont (besides, everyone is using them, so it wont matter).
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Originally by: Discorporation
What a novel idea, replacing something that is really broken with something that's even more broken..
Nope, fix whats broken so that people dont have to use exploits.
Yes, fix what's broken by applying the broken part to everyone.
Great logic sleuth..
[23]
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
Originally by: Discorporation
What a novel idea, replacing something that is really broken with something that's even more broken..
Nope, fix whats broken so that people dont have to use exploits.
Many moons ago there was a bug in the sec rating system that allowed -10 rating pirates to go to 1.0 systems and gank with impunity.
Your suggestion regarding bookmarks is akin to suggesting that CCP should have legitimised the actions of those pirates by banning Concord.
After all, that would have taken something that was broken and changed it so that people didn't have to use exploits to do what they were already doing.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:11:00 -
[8]
Genius! Magnus for president!
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Just a simple warrior.
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Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:16:00 -
[9]
then the only solution is to leave the system as it is.
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:27:00 -
[10]
Edited by: babyblue on 24/10/2005 10:27:07
Actually I think Magnus is quite right. If you want to stop people reaching a gate, use bubbles incoming, otherwise catch them on align for warp on the other side. If people are using instas in any case, what difference does it make? His argument is totally reasonable.
Insta marks fix whats broken in Eve: gate camping and losing-the-will-to-live travel from place to place. If the server is bowing under the pressure, then remove the need for them in the first place.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: babyblue
Edited by: babyblue on 24/10/2005 10:27:07
Actually I think Magnus is quite right. If you want to stop people reaching a gate, use bubbles incoming, otherwise catch them on align for warp on the other side. If people are using instas in any case, what difference does it make? His argument is totally reasonable.
Then let us use bubbles in empire.
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Proud member of the [23].
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babyblue
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Posted - 2005.10.24 10:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: babyblue
Edited by: babyblue on 24/10/2005 10:27:07
Actually I think Magnus is quite right. If you want to stop people reaching a gate, use bubbles incoming, otherwise catch them on align for warp on the other side. If people are using instas in any case, what difference does it make? His argument is totally reasonable.
Then let us use bubbles in empire.
Bubbles for war targets in empire are perfectly acceptable imho. Bubbles affecting the random masses on the other hand, would be more than a pain in the ayass.
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.10.24 11:55:00 -
[13]
If using instas was an exploit EVE would have a population of about 100 right now as we'd all be banned.
___________________________________________
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Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.10.24 12:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Braaage
If using instas was an exploit EVE would have a population of about 100 right now as we'd all be banned.
Well, its not an exploit in the sense that you get punished for using it. But it is an exploit in the sense that the devs at CCP did not intend space travel this way.
And if a solution can be made that both allows us to get rid of instas without any penalty and reduces server load, its a good thing in my view.
And the easiest solution seems to just fix warp so that it lands within 2km of its destination. There would be no need for gate instas, and since BMs makes login take longer people would quickly delete insta BMs and server load would be less.
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.10.24 12:20:00 -
[15]
Dropping within 2km of a gate would make empire wars obsolete since you wont be able to use warp bubbles in secure space.
I don't know what the solution is tbh, I'm a massive insta user and driving the impel without instas is probably going to render it useless as a complete hauler.
And how are agents going to give you kill missions without instas?
How are the POS owners going to find POSs easy without instas, they are gonna have to bring up moons in the overview everytime and find there moon?
Same applies to miners - I don't of anyone who doesn't use the same instas in the same belts to warp to and mine/haul from.
You can't just remove a mechanic such as this from a game without re-writing some of the other sections (like agent missions).
___________________________________________
http://www.eve-tutor.com
Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online |
Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.10.24 12:22:00 -
[16]
The whole flaw with the use bubbles or catch them on the other side is that...
1) Bubbles are only usable in 0.0 space and are only good for blockades, not actually chasing somone down (which makes them useless in empire wars and hunting).
2) Pods, shuttles, most frigs and ships with lows full of warp core stabs are more or less immune to any hostile action when aligning to warp becuase they either warp before anyone can get a lock, or they have so many warp core stabs no one has enough ships to lock them down leaving the only option to be an overkill gank force to take out targets before they can align (and THEN people start *****ing about that).
Oveur already mentioned in a blog that the 2 main reasons they want rid of instas is to stop this "total immunity" when traveling and to prevent the servers that store the bms from having a meltdown with almost every player having several thousand bms each.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2005.10.24 12:27:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/10/2005 12:28:59
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
But it is an exploit in the sense that the devs at CCP did not intend space travel this way.
If you accept that the devs don't want people landing 2km from a gate, why are suggesting that people land 2km from a gate by default?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
VaderDSL
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Posted - 2005.10.24 13:35:00 -
[18]
Why can't CCP set a hard limit for the number of instas you can have?
FInd out roughly what the servers can handle and limit new players to say 10, then introduce a skill to increase the number of instas to a max of say 50? that way you would only have instas for very important or risky routes, then covert ops can tail someone and see what parts of their routes they dont have insta on and call in a gate camp there instead of the 0.0 entrances which everyone will have insta for.
Just a thought
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Manwoman
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Posted - 2005.10.24 13:43:00 -
[19]
I personally dont use more than several hundred bms, i had more, but i deleted them, i bought loads of sets and found the game froze for like 2-3 sec when trying to click listen items in solarsystem.
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Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.10.24 13:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 24/10/2005 12:28:59
Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
But it is an exploit in the sense that the devs at CCP did not intend space travel this way.
If you accept that the devs don't want people landing 2km from a gate, why are suggesting that people land 2km from a gate by default?
Because if warp is made to land 2km from the gate, it will be fair to everyone. And the devs can also make adjustments to compensate for the faster travel time, for example adjusting warp speed.
Notice that I do NOT suggest removing bookmarks, as some posters seems to believe. In fact, I dont even suggest removing insta bookmarks, players will take care of that themselves when they become redundant.
As someone pointed out, for this to work warp bubbles and the new bubble-destroyer has to work in Empire as well, but should only affect war targets.
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Kaeten
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Posted - 2005.10.24 13:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: VaderDSL
Why can't CCP set a hard limit for the number of instas you can have?
FInd out roughly what the servers can handle and limit new players to say 10, then introduce a skill to increase the number of instas to a max of say 50? that way you would only have instas for very important or risky routes, then covert ops can tail someone and see what parts of their routes they dont have insta on and call in a gate camp there instead of the 0.0 entrances which everyone will have insta for.
Just a thought
nononononoonononoononooooooooooo
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Beinrich
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:04:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Beinrich on 24/10/2005 14:10:03
Quote:
Dropping within 2km of a gate would make empire wars obsolete since you wont be able to use warp bubbles in secure space.
That is not true. Right now people have instas and wars are far from being obsolete.
Quote:
As someone pointed out, for this to work warp bubbles and the new bubble-destroyer has to work in Empire as well, but should only affect war targets.
I dont think its nessesary. I actually dont think it should be implemented since it opens the doors wide to grief and oppression. You shouldnt be able to force people in empire to fight who dont want to.
Im all for a default insta or near insta or maybe a system where your warp accuracy increases by the time you travel certain routes.
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VaderDSL
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:06:00 -
[23]
Hehe Kaeten :) I thought it may have been a daft idea, but personally I'm wondering how they can solve the issue without causing lots of upset players.
I mean insta's are so ingrained into Eve play, that simply ditching them will be dangerous - there are people I bet who would simply quit over something so daft, CCP don't want this obviously - yet keeping them is having a bad effect on the servers. I though a compromise would be the easiest way.
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Mecallie
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:31:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Mecallie on 24/10/2005 14:36:38
I can understand why they would want them removed, however in such a huge game I would not really like to go without it. As far as I am concerned they can allow warp bubbles in empire space and also set a skill that allows you to jump to 0k let's say Spaceship Command and Navigation both at 5.
That way players can still use "insta's" so to speak, do not need bookmarks and they can be cought.
EDIT:
Or maybe allow warp bubbles in empire but only let them work against factions you are at war with? To stop everyone from being warp scrambled. Should still reduce the strain on the servers...
Blow me up Scotty! |
KIATolon
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:43:00 -
[25]
If the "warp randomly within 5km of the gate" thing is introduced then my ships survival is going to be dependent on pure lucky, and that's not really acceptable to me.
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Mangus Thermopyle
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:58:00 -
[26]
Originally by: KIATolon
If the "warp randomly within 5km of the gate" thing is introduced then my ships survival is going to be dependent on pure lucky, and that's not really acceptable to me.
Yea, but thats just a bad idea. Inserting randomness in situations like this will just upset people.
With bubbles and/or the upcoming bubble-destroyer, you can catch people who uses instas, so there is no need to make travel in 0.0 any more unsafe. And thats why I think they could just make warp with 2km accuracy, so that people dont have to use instas.
Also, bubbles will have to be put infront of the gate to catch people who warp 2km from the gate, which seems a lot more logical than the current 15-20km behind.
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Darcon
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Posted - 2005.10.24 14:59:00 -
[27]
Two issues here:
1. Player maintenance of and system storgae of all those bookmarks. A serious player may have in excess of 4k bookmarks. Multiply that over the player base and CCP might be storing a quarter billion data objects just to handle these things. You all know how slowly they copy as it is.
2. Tactical use in PvP. Instas, you either have them or you don't. If you don't, you are an easy target in 0.0 or empire. You still have to come out the other side of that gate. Perhaps a high accuracy warp to a gate should equal a high accuracy arrival, making other end tackling easier. A tradeoff in essence.
I'd personally like to see three skillsfor warping:
Warp Accuracy (1)
Advanced Warp Accuracy (5)
[Insert fancy scientific name here] (8)
Each warp is governed by a random deviation from dead center, starting at an even larger variant than it is now (say 25k?). You would need the rank 1 skill to 5 to get the current accuracy. The rank 5 skill to 5 would net you within 5-7k each time. The top end skill would get you within 2k when maxed, damn close to 2.3k when at 4.
I'd be happy to trade 4k+ bookmarks for these three skills. 99% of those being a waste of time and fun. Keep bookmarks for tactical use, but lose them for system to system movement.
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maximyus
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Posted - 2005.10.24 15:01:00 -
[28]
Instas are fine LEAVE THEM ALONE
please resize your signature graphic so that it conforms with the EVE-Online forum guidelines and please refrain from trolling in your signature quote - Jacques' |
Waldo Barnstormer
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Posted - 2005.10.24 15:14:00 -
[29]
I see two (and a bit) potential methods for fixing the server load caused by bookmarks (Personally i never want to see bookmarks gone, it takes too damn long to get anywhere in eve even WITH bookmarks, and I think gate campers are the scum of the game as it is)
1) Why not make bookmarks client side, sure it sucks if you use multiple computers, but it'd take the strain off the servers I'd imagine. After all, its just pointing to a point in space, why can't that be client side? [obviously, there would have to be checks and balances in the game so some wannabe h4cker can't rig his bookmarks to move him into a different system)
2) Don't allow bookmarks to be copied. The rate of increase of bookmarks will decrease if everyone has to make their own. Personally, I always use my own bookmarks, I trusted someone elses once, got dumped 22k from gate and went home in a pod.
a bit) Make selling bookmarks on escrow or otherwise a bannable offence - It takes space up on escrow, and floods the market with thousands of new bookmarks everytime theres a sale
a bit more) And if the issue really IS server load, then GET RID OF THE GIANT SECURE CANS! Set a time limit on them.. jeez.. I'm sick of jumping into systems, and LITERALLY seeing more cans than people. Set a time limit of a week or so on them or something.. the must be carrying more than their fair share of server load.. without them, maybe the issue of bm's wont seem as bad.
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Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.10.24 15:57:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Bhaal on 24/10/2005 15:57:57
Insta's suck.
I never like to have too many, so I'm always deleting a bunch, then I don't have them to get to the "hotspot" and I'm ******...
I'd be all for their removal at gates, and give us skills to warp in closer.
Bubbles should work in empire for corp war targets.
Maybe make the warp in dependent on skills and ships.
Shuttles can warp in at gate jump range.
Frigs ~ 3km from gate
Cruisers ~ 5km
BS ~ 7.5 km
Or whatever...
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