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Anyone heard of a price fixing Cartel??

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Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:29:00 - [1] Some guy claiming to be part of a secret Cartel is harrassing our corp telling us what we can sell, where and for what price. Wanted us to put the prices of our cannons up from 100k to 200k! Started to threaten to blow us up if we didnt comply. Bit of an idiot really but highly amusing. Cant see how he thinks he will be able to blow us up in 1.0 systems and even if he could it would be REALLY difficult to sell through an Alt wouldnt it Just thought this was really funny how he thought he could force other players to comply. Whatever happened to player driven economy !
Psyco Groupie	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:30:00 - [2] Probably the retards who sell each other tritanium for 2000 isk * ******* Crazy
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 14:42:56 Its because ot the broken market and all the slow minded small corps selling good at mineral cost. I've been threated too but I can't raise my prices unless everyone else does. I wish I could I agree with whomever is starting such a mafia. But he could kill you in 1.0 space. unless your in the newb corp you should check you Corp war thing they could add you to it and you not even know it. Then they can shoot you freely in 1.0 space. And if your one od the slow minded corps I hope they do. And if you think about it. If they make you raise your prices it still makes it a player "driven" Economy just not driven by you.
Quantum Matrix	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:41:00 - [4] There's a group called the Trade Federation who think the decreasing cost of ships due to high supply and small demand needs to stop, and they want to try and coerce people into selling at the "proper prices", whatever those are. My message is this: Good luck enforcing that. -QM What do we want? Brains! When do we want them? Brains!
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:44:00 - [5] If you want to join them, if yuou don't then don't That's the beauty of EvE, these things can form and dissolve any time [Heterocephalus glaber]
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:56:00 - [6] Edited by: Faxon on 06/08/2003 15:00:23 Whilst it is a valid ponit people are selling at below cost it is out of order to try to force other players to sell at over inflated prices. The item in question cost about 70k to make and he was trying to force us to sell it at 200k ! If this cartel wants to buy all of our stock up at low prices and re-sell it at higher then fine but we can sell at whatever price we like. As to selling at build cost. Why is this a problem ? If we do our own mining then selling at build cost is still profit. To us mining with CU vapors and haresters on cruisers and Indy's the ore comes quicker and is therefore cheaper to us in man hours anyway. Yes we could on occassion make more profit from selling the ore itself but wheres the fun in that ! The way I see it is this "Cartel" can go *%^& themselves. If they do have the ability to carry out threats we will still sell the goods, just under an alt. If they want to contact me about buying our goods direct to sell to the public at over inflated prices then fine, but someone will always undercut them. "That's the beauty of EvE, these things can form and dissolve any time " Definitely. In theory the cartel idea is a good one to have if these people want to raise prices.(Even if they have no chance). However what isnt good is the threats this guy made if we didnt comply.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 15:00:30 Faxon - How old are you. Have you taken Economics or go to school. Now What is broken is the Ship Market. And here is why...... People can now get a BP cheap. But When that produce there ship they don't realize that they must sell at Insures price instead they sell and mineral cost which is dumb. They think that if they mine the mineral and sell it for the cost of the minerals it is all profit. um... no... Use your head. You might as well just sell the minerals. Hello, McFly... What about production cost it takes time to produce the ship. It takes hrs, espiecally for a cruiser to gather the minerals. And lastly what about the time it took you to get the skills and train for Mass and industry ect... Arn't you efough worth anything. Also producing ships so cheaply like cruisers, Puts newbs in crusiers. You Should also be able to pay your miners for the work. Frigates are dead no question. I can buy a Tormentor for less then 10k then spen 7k to insure it. go out to a belt have the pirates kill me and come back and make 25k makeing 8k profit off the producer. Crusiers are next, I saw a Omen for 2mill only 1 mill to insure, and the pay off is 4 mill. know body can sell for the reall price because all those small corps that got a hold of a cheap Crusier BP arn't thinking straight.
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Faxon on 06/08/2003 15:05:47 Edited by: Faxon on 06/08/2003 15:04:35 Im 33. Yes we could sometimes make more money selling ore. That does NOT mean selling this is not profit. It just means we could have made more profit. If we have nothing in our hangar, go out mine, then produce the goods then whatever cash we make is profit. Granted we could make more profit but if money at end of process > money at beginning profit has been made. PS I am making plenty of money and doing so in a way I like and enjoying the game whats the problem in that ? PPS This is irrelevant to the point of the discussion about trying to force players at over inflated prices.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:09:00 - [9] You see that is why the market is broken. Look around you. In the real world if you go out mining for minerals and make some stuff using those minerals do you sell it for the cost of those minerals or do you also add labor cost, and production costs. That factory slot cost you money right. say you produce something that takes a week or you only use it once, Doesn't the cost of the slot come into effect. If you only sell at Mineral cost and don't use the slot again becuase it takes time to remine the minerals again (this is for crusiers) then you just lost money. But thats OK I find good buys like omens for 1.5 mill or 2mill insure them and then blow them up and make a profit so no big deal. Your loss it what took me 10 sec to buy. 5 secs to insure and 5 mins to blow up and it took you hours to mine and hours to produce.
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:19:00 - [10] Profit is to have more money than you start with. Price of minerals on market is irrelevant to me as the time it takes Newbie McNewbieson to mine 100k of sco is a lot longer than me. I could indeed make more money by mining. Thats boring. I prefer to make plenty of money manafacturing and selling at the prices I want. I rent a factory slot for 80k for 3 days. I make about 3 mil a day for a few hours gaming. Whilst my bank account gets bigger and bigger I am making profit ! Again I admit I could make more profit mining, but I dont want to ! To be fair I 90% of the time sell at over mineral price so still make "profit" as you see it. Again I reiterate the point of this thread is that this cartel are trying to force players to sell at highly inflated prices.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:28:00 - [11] Oh so your not mining your poor corp members are. Now I see why you don't understand. But you are right there prices are alittle too high. I did lookup some of the old prices before cheep BP copies flooded the market and killed it. Old Prices ( remember seeing them ) Exequsioner 40k Tormentor 47k Crusifier 300k Inquisitor 425K Punisher 590k Omen 9M Maller 16M Auguror 5.8M Arbitrator 7M Bestower 1.8M I had writen them down cause when I first started playing I wanted to know how much I needed for each ship. Now most of those are for less then half.
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:36:00 - [12] domost of the mining myself using 2 chars. When corp members are involved we always pay them the going rate but do often sell some of their output. As to ships, we only make small frigates and neversell them under mineral cost. Yet again, this thread is about a cartel who are trying to force players to sell at 200% profit margins which is more ridiculous than selling at mineral cost !
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:38:00 - [13] Agreed 200% is outragous. What frigates do you make??
The Machman	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:41:00 - [14] Getting off topic of thread and talking about ship prices. To be honest your prices listed do look far more realistic. I stopped selling Probes as they sell less than Medium projectiles! Cheap BP copies as you say is the cause of this as with unlimited copies you have less reason to raise prices to make profit. To add limited copy BP's will help the market prices far more than some mickey mouse organisation trying to force players to raise em!
Klydor	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:47:00 - [15] So your feeling the hand of the mafia, they want to sell their goods at a high price and your undercutting them. They plan on forcing you to comply via violence. You either comply or fight it out with them. Or find another corp willing to sell the product for you under an alias (another corp or alt). I see no problem with what the cartel is trying. Finally some player generated content. Now react to that threat and decide your course of action. Form an alliance with other corps to ensure the cartel can't touch you. Or sell under an alt and have the cartel beleive you are no longer worth persueing. Its part of the game, its what eve is meant to be. Well one part of what its meant to be.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:51:00 - [16] Here here. Content is grand. But I don't think you are complaining are you? Faxon. Just asking a question it seems to me. Right?
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:02:00 - [17] Personally I dont think the market is broken but it is too easy to make money from cheap sales. Mineral costs are not as important as people keep saying if people dont buy the minerals. BP Copies do need to be limited which will add more value to the production costs. Ship prices are too low, thats why I have never bought an original BP for a cruiser as you would have to sell too many to break even.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:02:00 - [18] Quote: Some guy claiming to be part of a secret Cartel is harrassing our corp telling us what we can sell, where and for what price. Wanted us to put the prices of our cannons up from 100k to 200k! Started to threaten to blow us up if we didnt comply. My God Man! This is NEWS! (EVE-mail me the details pls old chap)
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:07:00 - [19] Some of the Minerals Take to long to get I buy some of them. How long does it take you to get 1M Tritanium? If less then a day can you join my corp plz. I love the new Idea with the BP limitation it will cause more ppl to want Originals raising the prices. Then maybe that so called trade federation will stop. What ships frigates to you make? - Faxon
Purvy	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:40:00 - [20] Edited by: Purvy on 06/08/2003 16:40:32 If you are refering to the trade federation then here is the link to another post on this site with some of their info. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=21496
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:57:00 - [21] Just because someone with high industrial skills can mine the ore faster (mining/AG) and can make the stuff cheaper than you (PE) doesn't mean theyre taking a loss just because they have a researched copy and better skills that allow them to sell for a profit cheaper than you can produce at cost. I for one think its outrageous that people think they should be making 10+ million profit on a cruiser. Then again I think it's wrong that CCP has nerfed pirate loot drop rate so bad that decent weapons and modules cost more than Cruisers.. even at the inflated cruiser prices you posted. So go figure..
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:02:00 - [22] Lol what world are you living in. You havn't been playing long have you. Those weren't Inflated prices those were the old prices. Before people like you got there hands on cheep BPs. But the new patch will help that. And I am not worried about it Like I said if you want to go ahead and find a awsomely researched BP and your skills are maxed by all means sell it for mineral cost I will turn around insure it and make more profit then you in less time. Did you really read anything? Wouldn't it be smarter if you had an better BP and maxed skill to keep the price high so you make more. At the very least The price should be higher then The Insurence payoff.
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:11:00 - [23] I didn't say anything about selling for under insurance payouts - obviously thats stupid, and while you may have, I have never seen a ship sell for less than the insurance payout. My point was I feel like its gouging when you talk about wanting to sell cruisers for 16 million when it costs 4 million to build at NPC mineral prices.
Athren Soulsteal	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:20:00 - [24] Quote: Some of the Minerals Take to long to get I buy some of them. How long does it take you to get 1M Tritanium? If less then a day can you join my corp plz Your doing it wrong then, one of my corp wants a BS so we started mining the mins for the upcoming SYOM deal. 10mil isk for the 1 run copy. Anyway 3 of us power mined for just 2 hours. tally after the 2 hours. 2.6mil trit 1.5 mil pye 856k nox 984k mex 459k iso all from a 1.0 system we figger 3 days of 2-3 hours mining to get all the minerals and isk to buy the meg/zyd for the scorp. so the cost of the scorp 10mil+18 hour mining (total of 3 ppl) the problem is that a lot of people take the NPC pricing a the true price of an item instead of understanding that it is a false price given by the dev that has no baring on minerals makeup or production time. If you have a BP that is not researced and produce an item sould it be priced the same as an item made from a BP that has 500/500 reserch/effe? Of course not, the whole point of reserching is to be able to reduce the cost and thus the price of an item. Why should a battle ship cost 200 mil when it only cost 30 mil in minerals? What is the proper price for anything, the answer is simply the price is what someone is willing to pay. If no one is willing to pay your price then your price is too high.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:22:00 - [25] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 17:23:58 Again I don't feel you read or maybe you missunderstood. I didn't say I will sell for those prices. I said those use to be the prices. And yes I have seen ppl sell for less then insurence price. EX.... With a good BP and maxed skill I have seen corps get the mineral cost to 2mill for an Omen. And what do they do they sell it for 2 mill. The Insure payoff is 4 mill. lets do the math and see just how dumb that really is. It still takes alot of Tri and pyr with takes awhile to mine. so..... Mineing the minerals for one Omen 1 - 5 hours ( if waiting to a batch of 3 to produce - 10 to 14 hours.) Production time 1.5 to 2.5 hours each. You make your 2 mill profit yepy... Now my turn.... Time it takes to buy Omen - 2 secs at 2mill Time it takes to insure Omen - 2 secs at 1mill Time it takes to have Omen destoyed - 5 to 10 mins Profit I make 4.5 mill Look destroy 2 buy 2 get one free. raise and recyle. which one of us just made more and at whos expence.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:26:00 - [26] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 17:27:57 I think the price should be by 2 things The cost of the Insurence and the payoff. So for that Omen.... payoff is 4.5M and cost for insurence is 1M Therfore it should be sold for 5.5M And Again for those of you NOT reading I said insurence cost. Not NPC cost the prices I had writen were when I started playing.
Blinder	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:46:00 - [27] ships (and anything else you manufacture) should cost more than "mineral prices" because minerals aren't the only thing that goes into producing them. There's the cost of the BP, the cost of the factroy slot, and the time cost involved (i.e. the time you spend waiting for the ship to build, ferrying it to where you're going to sell it, and then waiting for it to sell). Many people value their time spent doing something "profitable" by about how much they could be making if they just parked in front of a good rock for that time instead, and add however much they think they could have made just doing that to the cost of what they sell (or at least, a random amount intended to cover such time). Why do people think they can make 10 mil over minerals for cruisers? Because they can. Very easily... and because they want to be able to recoup the cost they paid to be able to make cruisers in the first place, not just to break even on each cruiser they sell. Because they know that people NEED ships, so people WILL PAY for them as long as prices don't get actually insane (i.e. hundreds of mil for a cruiser. Or, above whatever the NPC's happen to be producing at. But, by selling dirt-cheap, some corps are severely hampering the way other corps are trying to do business. Because if one person sells for dirt cheap, they're the only person who gets noticed and bought from. This tends to tick a lot of people off, since it prevents them from making a profit. So, it looks like one of these corps has gotten a little miffed, and possibly gotten some miffed friends together, and really, I hope a few more corps start getting annoyed and work on getting prices back where they should be. The new copy limitations should help keep new items from tanking as badly as current items have, but it'll take a bit more for the market items we have around today to work their way back up the price scale.
BSOD	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:55:00 - [28] Quote: Some of the Minerals Take to long to get I buy some of them. How long does it take you to get 1M Tritanium? If less then a day can you join my corp plz. I love the new Idea with the BP limitation it will cause more ppl to want Originals raising the prices. Then maybe that so called trade federation will stop. What ships frigates to you make? - Faxon 1M trit? If it takes you a day to mine that little, you really need to learn to mine. With mining 4 astro 4 and 4 lasers (i.e. Exequror with NO Harvester drones), you can make 410k trit in an hour mining Veld. If you sell the Pyer and buy trit with the cash, you're up to 683k PER HOUR. Add 8 Harvester drones and you're easily over 1mill ISK (i.e. 1mill trit) per hour mining. Now, as to someone selling 70k guns at cost assuming NPC mineral prices. Now if those guns make heavy use of Mex, Iso, and esp. Nox, what's that gun REALLY worth? Probably 50k or less. Selling those minerals at full NPC price is impossible to do in large volumes without spending large amounts of time that would be better spent mining. So even if he sells "at cost" NPC mineral pricewise, he's still making 25% profit. (The above minerals are typically depressed by about that much.) Of course, he'd be better off mining Scord and selling the trit/pyer in such a situation. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 18:01:00 - [29] Thats why I ask you to join. I don't have astros and some of my corpmates have Harvestor but not all. But thats not the point. Its Insurence payoff that is. Still takes you an hour to mine, and 2 hours to produce by that time I have rinsed and recycled insureinf and killing all your stock and making more then you off each ship you produce at your proudly low cost cause of your proudly trained skills and awsome BP.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.06 18:07:00 - [30] Quote: I didn't say anything about selling for under insurance payouts - obviously thats stupid, and while you may have, I have never seen a ship sell for less than the insurance payout. I see it all the time.. Every single time I dock somewhere, be it during mining, hunting or running agent missions; the first thing I do is check the region prices on every type of ship I can fly.. At the end of an average day for me, I usually have anywhere from 6-15 ships at various stations that I shuttle to, insure, then take out to be destroyed by npc pirates.. I gave up on producing (most)ships for profit weeks ago when I saw tons of Imi's selling at 10k each.. After a bit of research and keeping an eye on the market, I noticed that more and more retards were so intent on undercutting everyone else that they were basically begging me to rob them blind..

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