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Anyone heard of a price fixing Cartel??

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Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:29:00 - [1] Some guy claiming to be part of a secret Cartel is harrassing our corp telling us what we can sell, where and for what price. Wanted us to put the prices of our cannons up from 100k to 200k! Started to threaten to blow us up if we didnt comply. Bit of an idiot really but highly amusing. Cant see how he thinks he will be able to blow us up in 1.0 systems and even if he could it would be REALLY difficult to sell through an Alt wouldnt it Just thought this was really funny how he thought he could force other players to comply. Whatever happened to player driven economy !
Psyco Groupie	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:30:00 - [2] Probably the retards who sell each other tritanium for 2000 isk * ******* Crazy
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 14:42:56 Its because ot the broken market and all the slow minded small corps selling good at mineral cost. I've been threated too but I can't raise my prices unless everyone else does. I wish I could I agree with whomever is starting such a mafia. But he could kill you in 1.0 space. unless your in the newb corp you should check you Corp war thing they could add you to it and you not even know it. Then they can shoot you freely in 1.0 space. And if your one od the slow minded corps I hope they do. And if you think about it. If they make you raise your prices it still makes it a player "driven" Economy just not driven by you.
Quantum Matrix	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:41:00 - [4] There's a group called the Trade Federation who think the decreasing cost of ships due to high supply and small demand needs to stop, and they want to try and coerce people into selling at the "proper prices", whatever those are. My message is this: Good luck enforcing that. -QM What do we want? Brains! When do we want them? Brains!
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:44:00 - [5] If you want to join them, if yuou don't then don't That's the beauty of EvE, these things can form and dissolve any time [Heterocephalus glaber]
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 14:56:00 - [6] Edited by: Faxon on 06/08/2003 15:00:23 Whilst it is a valid ponit people are selling at below cost it is out of order to try to force other players to sell at over inflated prices. The item in question cost about 70k to make and he was trying to force us to sell it at 200k ! If this cartel wants to buy all of our stock up at low prices and re-sell it at higher then fine but we can sell at whatever price we like. As to selling at build cost. Why is this a problem ? If we do our own mining then selling at build cost is still profit. To us mining with CU vapors and haresters on cruisers and Indy's the ore comes quicker and is therefore cheaper to us in man hours anyway. Yes we could on occassion make more profit from selling the ore itself but wheres the fun in that ! The way I see it is this "Cartel" can go *%^& themselves. If they do have the ability to carry out threats we will still sell the goods, just under an alt. If they want to contact me about buying our goods direct to sell to the public at over inflated prices then fine, but someone will always undercut them. "That's the beauty of EvE, these things can form and dissolve any time " Definitely. In theory the cartel idea is a good one to have if these people want to raise prices.(Even if they have no chance). However what isnt good is the threats this guy made if we didnt comply.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 15:00:30 Faxon - How old are you. Have you taken Economics or go to school. Now What is broken is the Ship Market. And here is why...... People can now get a BP cheap. But When that produce there ship they don't realize that they must sell at Insures price instead they sell and mineral cost which is dumb. They think that if they mine the mineral and sell it for the cost of the minerals it is all profit. um... no... Use your head. You might as well just sell the minerals. Hello, McFly... What about production cost it takes time to produce the ship. It takes hrs, espiecally for a cruiser to gather the minerals. And lastly what about the time it took you to get the skills and train for Mass and industry ect... Arn't you efough worth anything. Also producing ships so cheaply like cruisers, Puts newbs in crusiers. You Should also be able to pay your miners for the work. Frigates are dead no question. I can buy a Tormentor for less then 10k then spen 7k to insure it. go out to a belt have the pirates kill me and come back and make 25k makeing 8k profit off the producer. Crusiers are next, I saw a Omen for 2mill only 1 mill to insure, and the pay off is 4 mill. know body can sell for the reall price because all those small corps that got a hold of a cheap Crusier BP arn't thinking straight.
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Faxon on 06/08/2003 15:05:47 Edited by: Faxon on 06/08/2003 15:04:35 Im 33. Yes we could sometimes make more money selling ore. That does NOT mean selling this is not profit. It just means we could have made more profit. If we have nothing in our hangar, go out mine, then produce the goods then whatever cash we make is profit. Granted we could make more profit but if money at end of process > money at beginning profit has been made. PS I am making plenty of money and doing so in a way I like and enjoying the game whats the problem in that ? PPS This is irrelevant to the point of the discussion about trying to force players at over inflated prices.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:09:00 - [9] You see that is why the market is broken. Look around you. In the real world if you go out mining for minerals and make some stuff using those minerals do you sell it for the cost of those minerals or do you also add labor cost, and production costs. That factory slot cost you money right. say you produce something that takes a week or you only use it once, Doesn't the cost of the slot come into effect. If you only sell at Mineral cost and don't use the slot again becuase it takes time to remine the minerals again (this is for crusiers) then you just lost money. But thats OK I find good buys like omens for 1.5 mill or 2mill insure them and then blow them up and make a profit so no big deal. Your loss it what took me 10 sec to buy. 5 secs to insure and 5 mins to blow up and it took you hours to mine and hours to produce.
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:19:00 - [10] Profit is to have more money than you start with. Price of minerals on market is irrelevant to me as the time it takes Newbie McNewbieson to mine 100k of sco is a lot longer than me. I could indeed make more money by mining. Thats boring. I prefer to make plenty of money manafacturing and selling at the prices I want. I rent a factory slot for 80k for 3 days. I make about 3 mil a day for a few hours gaming. Whilst my bank account gets bigger and bigger I am making profit ! Again I admit I could make more profit mining, but I dont want to ! To be fair I 90% of the time sell at over mineral price so still make "profit" as you see it. Again I reiterate the point of this thread is that this cartel are trying to force players to sell at highly inflated prices.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:28:00 - [11] Oh so your not mining your poor corp members are. Now I see why you don't understand. But you are right there prices are alittle too high. I did lookup some of the old prices before cheep BP copies flooded the market and killed it. Old Prices ( remember seeing them ) Exequsioner 40k Tormentor 47k Crusifier 300k Inquisitor 425K Punisher 590k Omen 9M Maller 16M Auguror 5.8M Arbitrator 7M Bestower 1.8M I had writen them down cause when I first started playing I wanted to know how much I needed for each ship. Now most of those are for less then half.
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:36:00 - [12] domost of the mining myself using 2 chars. When corp members are involved we always pay them the going rate but do often sell some of their output. As to ships, we only make small frigates and neversell them under mineral cost. Yet again, this thread is about a cartel who are trying to force players to sell at 200% profit margins which is more ridiculous than selling at mineral cost !
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:38:00 - [13] Agreed 200% is outragous. What frigates do you make??
The Machman	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:41:00 - [14] Getting off topic of thread and talking about ship prices. To be honest your prices listed do look far more realistic. I stopped selling Probes as they sell less than Medium projectiles! Cheap BP copies as you say is the cause of this as with unlimited copies you have less reason to raise prices to make profit. To add limited copy BP's will help the market prices far more than some mickey mouse organisation trying to force players to raise em!
Klydor	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:47:00 - [15] So your feeling the hand of the mafia, they want to sell their goods at a high price and your undercutting them. They plan on forcing you to comply via violence. You either comply or fight it out with them. Or find another corp willing to sell the product for you under an alias (another corp or alt). I see no problem with what the cartel is trying. Finally some player generated content. Now react to that threat and decide your course of action. Form an alliance with other corps to ensure the cartel can't touch you. Or sell under an alt and have the cartel beleive you are no longer worth persueing. Its part of the game, its what eve is meant to be. Well one part of what its meant to be.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 15:51:00 - [16] Here here. Content is grand. But I don't think you are complaining are you? Faxon. Just asking a question it seems to me. Right?
Faxon	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:02:00 - [17] Personally I dont think the market is broken but it is too easy to make money from cheap sales. Mineral costs are not as important as people keep saying if people dont buy the minerals. BP Copies do need to be limited which will add more value to the production costs. Ship prices are too low, thats why I have never bought an original BP for a cruiser as you would have to sell too many to break even.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:02:00 - [18] Quote: Some guy claiming to be part of a secret Cartel is harrassing our corp telling us what we can sell, where and for what price. Wanted us to put the prices of our cannons up from 100k to 200k! Started to threaten to blow us up if we didnt comply. My God Man! This is NEWS! (EVE-mail me the details pls old chap)
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:07:00 - [19] Some of the Minerals Take to long to get I buy some of them. How long does it take you to get 1M Tritanium? If less then a day can you join my corp plz. I love the new Idea with the BP limitation it will cause more ppl to want Originals raising the prices. Then maybe that so called trade federation will stop. What ships frigates to you make? - Faxon
Purvy	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:40:00 - [20] Edited by: Purvy on 06/08/2003 16:40:32 If you are refering to the trade federation then here is the link to another post on this site with some of their info. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=21496
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.06 16:57:00 - [21] Just because someone with high industrial skills can mine the ore faster (mining/AG) and can make the stuff cheaper than you (PE) doesn't mean theyre taking a loss just because they have a researched copy and better skills that allow them to sell for a profit cheaper than you can produce at cost. I for one think its outrageous that people think they should be making 10+ million profit on a cruiser. Then again I think it's wrong that CCP has nerfed pirate loot drop rate so bad that decent weapons and modules cost more than Cruisers.. even at the inflated cruiser prices you posted. So go figure..
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:02:00 - [22] Lol what world are you living in. You havn't been playing long have you. Those weren't Inflated prices those were the old prices. Before people like you got there hands on cheep BPs. But the new patch will help that. And I am not worried about it Like I said if you want to go ahead and find a awsomely researched BP and your skills are maxed by all means sell it for mineral cost I will turn around insure it and make more profit then you in less time. Did you really read anything? Wouldn't it be smarter if you had an better BP and maxed skill to keep the price high so you make more. At the very least The price should be higher then The Insurence payoff.
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:11:00 - [23] I didn't say anything about selling for under insurance payouts - obviously thats stupid, and while you may have, I have never seen a ship sell for less than the insurance payout. My point was I feel like its gouging when you talk about wanting to sell cruisers for 16 million when it costs 4 million to build at NPC mineral prices.
Athren Soulsteal	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:20:00 - [24] Quote: Some of the Minerals Take to long to get I buy some of them. How long does it take you to get 1M Tritanium? If less then a day can you join my corp plz Your doing it wrong then, one of my corp wants a BS so we started mining the mins for the upcoming SYOM deal. 10mil isk for the 1 run copy. Anyway 3 of us power mined for just 2 hours. tally after the 2 hours. 2.6mil trit 1.5 mil pye 856k nox 984k mex 459k iso all from a 1.0 system we figger 3 days of 2-3 hours mining to get all the minerals and isk to buy the meg/zyd for the scorp. so the cost of the scorp 10mil+18 hour mining (total of 3 ppl) the problem is that a lot of people take the NPC pricing a the true price of an item instead of understanding that it is a false price given by the dev that has no baring on minerals makeup or production time. If you have a BP that is not researced and produce an item sould it be priced the same as an item made from a BP that has 500/500 reserch/effe? Of course not, the whole point of reserching is to be able to reduce the cost and thus the price of an item. Why should a battle ship cost 200 mil when it only cost 30 mil in minerals? What is the proper price for anything, the answer is simply the price is what someone is willing to pay. If no one is willing to pay your price then your price is too high.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:22:00 - [25] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 17:23:58 Again I don't feel you read or maybe you missunderstood. I didn't say I will sell for those prices. I said those use to be the prices. And yes I have seen ppl sell for less then insurence price. EX.... With a good BP and maxed skill I have seen corps get the mineral cost to 2mill for an Omen. And what do they do they sell it for 2 mill. The Insure payoff is 4 mill. lets do the math and see just how dumb that really is. It still takes alot of Tri and pyr with takes awhile to mine. so..... Mineing the minerals for one Omen 1 - 5 hours ( if waiting to a batch of 3 to produce - 10 to 14 hours.) Production time 1.5 to 2.5 hours each. You make your 2 mill profit yepy... Now my turn.... Time it takes to buy Omen - 2 secs at 2mill Time it takes to insure Omen - 2 secs at 1mill Time it takes to have Omen destoyed - 5 to 10 mins Profit I make 4.5 mill Look destroy 2 buy 2 get one free. raise and recyle. which one of us just made more and at whos expence.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:26:00 - [26] Edited by: Kalhan on 06/08/2003 17:27:57 I think the price should be by 2 things The cost of the Insurence and the payoff. So for that Omen.... payoff is 4.5M and cost for insurence is 1M Therfore it should be sold for 5.5M And Again for those of you NOT reading I said insurence cost. Not NPC cost the prices I had writen were when I started playing.
Blinder	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:46:00 - [27] ships (and anything else you manufacture) should cost more than "mineral prices" because minerals aren't the only thing that goes into producing them. There's the cost of the BP, the cost of the factroy slot, and the time cost involved (i.e. the time you spend waiting for the ship to build, ferrying it to where you're going to sell it, and then waiting for it to sell). Many people value their time spent doing something "profitable" by about how much they could be making if they just parked in front of a good rock for that time instead, and add however much they think they could have made just doing that to the cost of what they sell (or at least, a random amount intended to cover such time). Why do people think they can make 10 mil over minerals for cruisers? Because they can. Very easily... and because they want to be able to recoup the cost they paid to be able to make cruisers in the first place, not just to break even on each cruiser they sell. Because they know that people NEED ships, so people WILL PAY for them as long as prices don't get actually insane (i.e. hundreds of mil for a cruiser. Or, above whatever the NPC's happen to be producing at. But, by selling dirt-cheap, some corps are severely hampering the way other corps are trying to do business. Because if one person sells for dirt cheap, they're the only person who gets noticed and bought from. This tends to tick a lot of people off, since it prevents them from making a profit. So, it looks like one of these corps has gotten a little miffed, and possibly gotten some miffed friends together, and really, I hope a few more corps start getting annoyed and work on getting prices back where they should be. The new copy limitations should help keep new items from tanking as badly as current items have, but it'll take a bit more for the market items we have around today to work their way back up the price scale.
BSOD	Posted - 2003.08.06 17:55:00 - [28] Quote: Some of the Minerals Take to long to get I buy some of them. How long does it take you to get 1M Tritanium? If less then a day can you join my corp plz. I love the new Idea with the BP limitation it will cause more ppl to want Originals raising the prices. Then maybe that so called trade federation will stop. What ships frigates to you make? - Faxon 1M trit? If it takes you a day to mine that little, you really need to learn to mine. With mining 4 astro 4 and 4 lasers (i.e. Exequror with NO Harvester drones), you can make 410k trit in an hour mining Veld. If you sell the Pyer and buy trit with the cash, you're up to 683k PER HOUR. Add 8 Harvester drones and you're easily over 1mill ISK (i.e. 1mill trit) per hour mining. Now, as to someone selling 70k guns at cost assuming NPC mineral prices. Now if those guns make heavy use of Mex, Iso, and esp. Nox, what's that gun REALLY worth? Probably 50k or less. Selling those minerals at full NPC price is impossible to do in large volumes without spending large amounts of time that would be better spent mining. So even if he sells "at cost" NPC mineral pricewise, he's still making 25% profit. (The above minerals are typically depressed by about that much.) Of course, he'd be better off mining Scord and selling the trit/pyer in such a situation. ---------------- Blue Screen of Death CEO Exodus Enterprises
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 18:01:00 - [29] Thats why I ask you to join. I don't have astros and some of my corpmates have Harvestor but not all. But thats not the point. Its Insurence payoff that is. Still takes you an hour to mine, and 2 hours to produce by that time I have rinsed and recycled insureinf and killing all your stock and making more then you off each ship you produce at your proudly low cost cause of your proudly trained skills and awsome BP.
Roulette	Posted - 2003.08.06 18:07:00 - [30] Quote: I didn't say anything about selling for under insurance payouts - obviously thats stupid, and while you may have, I have never seen a ship sell for less than the insurance payout. I see it all the time.. Every single time I dock somewhere, be it during mining, hunting or running agent missions; the first thing I do is check the region prices on every type of ship I can fly.. At the end of an average day for me, I usually have anywhere from 6-15 ships at various stations that I shuttle to, insure, then take out to be destroyed by npc pirates.. I gave up on producing (most)ships for profit weeks ago when I saw tons of Imi's selling at 10k each.. After a bit of research and keeping an eye on the market, I noticed that more and more retards were so intent on undercutting everyone else that they were basically begging me to rob them blind..
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.06 18:09:00 - [31] LOL - See!!! I don't know what the rest of you are thinking.
Lonewulf	Posted - 2003.08.06 18:56:00 - [32] Heh I'd love to know where you are buying Omens so cheap. After thinking about this thread I loaded up an Alt, hopped on the super highway and checked about 8 different regions.. cheapest price on an omen was 3.5 mill. Did you buy all the 2 million isk ones up allready?
Dorien	Posted - 2003.08.07 10:12:00 - [33] Just a few notes: Some respond to the spiraling down of prices in the market by whining that the market is broken. Others form Cartels and begin forcing some structure on the market. Be careful if you think that 1.0 space is safe from player enforcement. But true Cartels are NOT out to pod for no reason. They are trying to help Manufacturing compete with Pirate killing and Mining as a viable profession. Remember, negotiate, and find your place in the universe. Dorien MILITEC Armaments Cartel
Barl Rathbone	Posted - 2003.08.07 10:26:00 - [34] Edited by: Barl Rathbone on 07/08/2003 10:29:47 Quote: Just a few notes: Some respond to the spiraling down of prices in the market by whining that the market is broken. Others form Cartels and begin forcing some structure on the market. Be careful if you think that 1.0 space is safe from player enforcement. But true Cartels are NOT out to pod for no reason. They are trying to help Manufacturing compete with Pirate killing and Mining as a viable profession. Remember, negotiate, and find your place in the universe. Dorien MILITEC Armaments Cartel You are trying to bully people into selling at over inflated prices. I sold a 2nd hand 650 cannon I no longer use to the highest buy order which was 89k. This was placed by YOU. You then sent me a stroppy mail telling me not to sell at the price you offered. WTF !?!?!?!? If you want to try to enforce prices you may want to: 1) Stop being such an arrogant %$ 2) Recommend reasonable prices. I havent manafactured any goods for ages but after this I am certainly going to. What are you going to do about it ? Buy my goods up ? Thanks! I'll even sell via an alt so you have even less chance of destroying the seller than you do now. After speaking to several people at Hulm yesterday who you have also threatened you'll be delighted to know that every big seller there doesnt give a monkeys about your idle threats and is now more keen to sell stuff you dont want ! So you see you have achieved nothing.... If anyone wants to form a Free Trade Cartel let me know as I will happy to make a donation PS Your Cartel has 15 members. Many of which no doubt are alts. Is this really a proportional represntation of the 1000's of eve players ?
Dorien	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:27:00 - [35] Barl, I have checked into your allegations. It seems you are correct. The entity to whom HULM is assigned for that unit did, in fact, have a buy order at that time. They also sent you a proforma eve-mail concerning FUTURE sales of that item. As do all MILITEC notices, that one refered you to me, head of Cartel Realtions. note: I did not buy that item, nor did I set that buy order. MILITEC's role in this market is strictly as an administrative and enforcement body. Our numbers reflect the necessary members to carry out the adminstrative function. As we represent many individual and corporate interests, take care to not become deceived about our strength relative to our published size. Again, we DO NOT seek to "bully" people, rather to help organize the market in a manner consistenet with the charter concept that manufacturing should be as viable as mining and pirate hunting. Finally, the notice sent to you said NOTHING about what price YOU should sell at in the future. It simply offered that should you wish to be assigned exclusive territory free from direct Cartel competition, in exchange for defending target pricing to contact me. Do not invent bogeymen in the shadows. There are enough of them there already. Dorien MILITEC, Cartel Relations
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:34:00 - [36] Edited by: Kalhan on 07/08/2003 14:41:48 Burl can you sell me some Omens at 2mill I will buy 4 at a time if you sell them to me for 1.5mill Dor - I tried tell these people before. I tried organizing something. but they don't listen and once you do something like the allience thing they get all defencive like some high schooler as if your trying to run there life and do the complete opposite. If they want to lower there prices below INS let them I make more money that way.
Barl Rathbone	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:44:00 - [37] Quote: Barl, <snip>. MILITEC's role in this market is strictly as an administrative and enforcement body. Our numbers reflect the necessary members to carry out the adminstrative function. As we represent many individual and corporate interests, take care to not become deceived about our strength relative to our published size. Again, we DO NOT seek to "bully" people, <SNIP> Finally, the notice sent to you said NOTHING about what price YOU should sell at in the future. <SNIP> Dorien MILITEC, Cartel Relations Bullying - you threaten to blow anyone up who doesnt sell at over inflated prices. I have a transcript of a conversation YOU had with an associate telling him he could only sell 650 cannons at 200,000isk each. That is a ridiculous price !!! Then when I sold a 2nd hand item which I didnt manafacture but wanted to get rid of your stupid cartel bought it with a buy order. You then had the cheek to complain I was selling at lower price than I should !! Your own rules and regulations dont make sense. In a system 2 stops away from Hulm 650's sell for 100k, why would anyone buy at 200k ?? As I said, the whole of the Hulm community couldnt give a monkeys about your cartel so you kow where you can stick your fascist behavior. Heil Dorien !
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 14:48:00 - [38] Burl if you don't sell Omens what do you sell? ships that is. some people are starting to raise there prices and I need a new manufacture I can mak emoney off of.
Barl Rathbone	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:09:00 - [39] Quote: Burl if you don't sell Omens what do you sell? ships that is. some people are starting to raise there prices and I need a new manufacture I can mak emoney off of. Dont sell for under insurance value I'm afraid :) Dont want to sell at 150% profit either !
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:09:00 - [40] LOL, As all this cartel talk seems to be taking place around the Heimatar region here are some market prices. 8 89,997 Pator 50 90,000 Ammold 4 90,000 Klir 23 99,774 Hulm 32 100K Auga Plus another 5 systems with prices below this 200K mark, I can't see this cartel working to well. Also none of these are items I have put up as I've been under bid myself. Now if it was not for an agreement with another player I would just be selling at 75K as with eff prod 5 and a researched BP these things cost only about 63K to make and a 20% market is not bad. Relic
Barl Rathbone	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:13:00 - [41] Edited by: Barl Rathbone on 07/08/2003 15:14:04 Relic, 75k for a 650 autocannon is ridiculous. 20% profit on a sale is stupid. You should sell at 200 isk like the cartel say. Who cares if someone can buy exactly the same goods 2 jumps away for less tahn half the price ? Up the Cartel I say.
Oosel	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:16:00 - [42] ill bet these were the guys who sold bp copies in the first place and are now worrying because we can now make our own ships and their initial greed has come back to bite them nobody is selling anything at a loss its just some of you want things to be like it was when eve first went retail....
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:20:00 - [43] WTS: Bestower 1.2Mil... its worth it I swear, the ***** factory workers are on strike, soon we will be forced to move to Amarr space and use slaves to build the ships so we can undersell the competition.... Hear our cry, fix Bestower price at 1.2 mil, my rich * daughter wants to drive a Murcielago! Make me rich now so I don't have to hear her *. ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't**" -----------------------------------------------
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:56:00 - [44] Daesdemona - Did you accually read what I said or look at the pretty numbers? Thats was what the prices were at when I started playing. Do I think they should be back at those prices? maybe but I like the fact that you guys sell them lower then INS. I make more money that way.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:56:00 - [45] Edited by: Kalhan on 07/08/2003 16:01:04 Double Post
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 15:56:00 - [46] Edited by: Kalhan on 07/08/2003 16:00:51 triple post
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:00:00 - [47] Quote: Daesdemona - Did you accually read what I said or look at the pretty numbers? Thats was what the prices were at when I started playing. Do I think they should be back at those prices? maybe but I like the fact that you guys sell them lower then INS. I make more money that way. a) I heard you the first time b) I don't sell $hit so back off c) A little humor never hurt anyone, lay off the eve pipe and get some sleep. ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't" -----------------------------------------------
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:02:00 - [48] Edited by: Kalhan on 07/08/2003 16:03:40 Humor??? Sorry it really really sounded like flaming sarcasim to me. I got lots of sleep its 12pm here.
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:02:00 - [49] Edited by: Kalhan on 07/08/2003 16:02:54 didn't mean to offend or triple post
Windy Whitehall	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:11:00 - [50] sorry didn't read most of second or third page. what is really happen here is this so called Cartel is asking CCP to make them a legit corp and help them. read latest dev chat log and you will find the section where they ask CCP to help them get word of thier exsitance out to all players of game. and to include them in storyline
Dorien	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:14:00 - [51] Barl, Your "associate" was asking about what Cartel pricing targets were for that item in newly assigned territory. And none of the MILITEC guidelines are 200k or over for that item. You must be mistaken. MILITEC sets a target price, a minimum price and a buyout price. Members of the cartel agree to support those pricing levels on specific superior goods items in exchange for non-compete agreements with all other cartel members. Those who break Cartel policy are refered to Enforcement. Enforcement takes a case-by-case approach to every institutionalized seller. Just because a Cartel participant sends you a notice does NOT mean Enforcement is going to attack you if you sell again. Enforcement rearely ever engages in hostilities, instead they try to work out a mutually beneficial arangement with the seller. The only time (that I am aware of) which enforcement has used force is when no settlement is reachable and MILITEC participants are either threatened or specifically targeted in the market. Now, I will be the first to admit, I am not directly involved in enforcement. My role is to act as liason between the various manufacturers and negotiate pricing guidelines as set out by the Cartel. Also, I explain how the Cartel works. I hope this helps! Dorien MILITEC Cartel Relations
Dorien	Posted - 2003.08.07 16:17:00 - [52] Windy, MILITEC has never asked CCP to do anything for us. Again, we are a consortium of independant and corporate manufacturers who founded MILIEC to help provide the market with a little structure. Nothing more, nothing less. Dorien MILITEC Cartel Relations
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.07 17:55:00 - [53] Quote: Your "associate" was asking about what Cartel pricing targets were for that item in newly assigned territory. And none of the MILITEC guidelines are 200k or over for that item. You must be mistaken. Well the reports from others also indicate that they were told 200K or else. Quote: Enforcement rearely ever engages in hostilities, instead they try to work out a mutually beneficial arangement with the seller. Funny all the gangster movies I seen use the same wording :) Quote: MILITEC has never asked CCP to do anything for us. Again, we are a consortium of independant and corporate manufacturers who founded MILIEC to help provide the market with a little structure. In the Dev Chat it was the trade Fed who seem to want to be written in to the story line, or at least have CCP do their marketing for them. To be honest, this type of structure is never going to work as each build have different costs - someone with a researched BP and Eff Prod 5 can sell way below another player and still make a larger overall profit and anyone selling drops just wants a sale fast so will sell below the market price. Relic
Dorien	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:16:00 - [54] Relic, We agree that someone with good skills and well researched blueprints can make a higher profit than one without. If both were members of the Cartel, then the one with better researched BP's would make more money, as is appropriate. We disagree that a Cartel cannont work. While target pricing is ~175% profit, actual averages work out to closer to 100% - "keystone" in retail. You have to consider the Cartel members must buy out lower priced one-off drop sellers and also must defend their territory with price wars. While those raise costs and insure that Cartel members do not always receive full "retail" pricing, it DOES significantly raise the profit margin. As a matter of fact someoone was saying that they considered 20% to be a good profit for them. Our Cartel members report profit margins of FIVE TIMES that amount. Does it work? You bet! Dorien MILITEC Cartel Relations
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:32:00 - [55] I was the person who said that I was happy at 20% margin and as I've been given the green light from the player I have an agreement with, to price at what I like they are now on sale at 76K :) The thing is I would rather sell 100 guns at 20% margin than 5 at 100% margin. Also I'm often selling to other solo players I work with within the game, as I'm buying the ore they mine or the drops they get from pirates we have a close working relationship and I have no plans to overcharge them and mess that up. Relic
Aleister Crowley	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:53:00 - [56] Price fixing is illegal (at least in the states). So you could be busted and sent to a country club err.. Prison where they will force you to watch TV and play ping pong (oh the horror). 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law'
Kalhan	Posted - 2003.08.07 18:54:00 - [57] What!!?? The government regulates prices what are you talking about?? Illegial??
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:11:00 - [58] On the old historic home planet in the 20th century many countries made cartel agreements illegal and many companies were fined for such things. As it stands the empire's of the EVE space have not needed to introduce such laws as the market does not enable such structures to be formed wih any easy. Relic
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:14:00 - [59] Edited by: Jash Illian on 07/08/2003 19:16:01 Edited by: Jash Illian on 07/08/2003 19:15:17 Quote: Relic, We agree that someone with good skills and well researched blueprints can make a higher profit than one without. If both were members of the Cartel, then the one with better researched BP's would make more money, as is appropriate. We disagree that a Cartel cannont work. While target pricing is ~175% profit, actual averages work out to closer to 100% - "keystone" in retail. You have to consider the Cartel members must buy out lower priced one-off drop sellers and also must defend their territory with price wars. While those raise costs and insure that Cartel members do not always receive full "retail" pricing, it DOES significantly raise the profit margin. As a matter of fact someoone was saying that they considered 20% to be a good profit for them. Our Cartel members report profit margins of FIVE TIMES that amount. Does it work? You bet! Dorien MILITEC Cartel Relations Oh...please, please, please aim for 100% profit on your prices. What that will do is allow anyone that can meet the demand to undercut you and destroy your cartel. 320k for a Rifter? I'm sure many people intent on selling for 200k would love you for it. You'd be taking every manufacturer in your cartel out of the competition I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Zorakk	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:37:00 - [60] I luv this confrontation. This is what it is supposed to be about? Think the Cartel will back down or the Independents? Will the Independent folks join to fight the Cartel? Will it just be a big shouting match and involve money or think they will really throw down and start fighting?? Good stuff. Zorakk P.S. IF and when it gets ugly if anyone is in need of Mercenary services...etc....
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.07 19:38:00 - [61] Edited by: Relic on 07/08/2003 19:40:12 Well its about the only game play going on in central space, so its fun. Also 0% name calling so far so we all must be adults with different view points, all so a nice change. Relic
agrizla	Posted - 2003.08.07 20:30:00 - [62] Edited by: agrizla on 07/08/2003 20:30:55 I also love this. I'm going to stop melting those crap guns down that I get from drops and start putting them on the market. If cartel members have to buyout all the crap drop items they're going to be bankrupt inside the week
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.08 00:00:00 - [63] Just to complete my part of this thread, here is a copy of an open letter for Militec posted in these forums, as I did not see much value in sending it back as an ingame message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have decided to make this an open letter. Thank you very much for you purchasing the 21 650mm guns I had on sale at the Hulm station at 76K isk, as sales seemed slow even with the lowest price in the region, as many players are able to source these items via pirate drops. As you seem happy to purchase such things so that you can then place them on the market at a much higher market price of 219K, I'm sure you will be happy to hear that I have now started to produce another batch of 20, which I expect to place on the market sometime in the next 24 hours. As you seem certain that you can find buyers at such a higher price, I hope you don't mind if I place my sale at a higher price of 80K so that I can share in your good fortune. As for your kind offer of letting me become involved in your cartel, I have to decline such a kind offer as it does not fit in with my business plans or the plans of the players I currently play with. This means that I must also decline your request that I refrain from producing these items. With Thanks Relic
agrizla	Posted - 2003.08.08 00:41:00 - [64] Nice one Relic. All these guys want to do is screw over small corps, freelancers and newbies. If they had half a brain between them they'd see that there are other ways of "adding value" to sales
Dorien	Posted - 2003.08.08 03:02:00 - [65] Relic, I agree that this is the only game going now. There has to be an element of that in what we all do. Unfortunately, there has been much name calling, none of it on our part. We aim to conduct ourselves perfectly professionally, as I am sure you can appreciate. I just received word that our participant in HULM purchased your units. That is their choice to do, and not actually any kind of mandate from the Cartel itself. Good for them, good for you. But I suspect that when your additional units hit the market they will refer the case to enforcement. I dont know, but I suspect that enforcement will view this as a direct attack on the Cartel. Although from what I know about that manufactureer, they are just as likely to stop their manufacturing of those units and justuse yours in higher priced markets, as I know they sell in several other regions.MILITEC only responds to what our membership wishes us to. Remember that the Cartel does not aim to ALWAYS control a price. That is impossible in this market model. To those who think we are stupid for this approach, let me remind you that all of our members, when averaged over their product lines are AVERAGING nearly 100% profit. So one product line goes down for a while, so what? None of our participants is going to mind that much. We still produce better results than any other market system to date. Somehow I think thats not so stupid! Good luck all. Dorien MILITEC Cartel Relations PS: Seems like war is brewing! Anyone who would like to line up on the MILITEC side for some fun in the inner systesm, give me a ring!
Fester Addams	Posted - 2003.08.08 03:41:00 - [66] As some have pointed out the people who want to raise the prices are not interested in having a working market, they are interested in raising their profit. It is not the same thing. To the people that are upset about others selling at mineral price or even below forget one thing. Some people dont want to, after spending alot of time mining, spend alot of time setting up the sales of minerals. You have to account for the gametime used to fly round and sell off the minerals and as time is the only comodity that has any real fixed value any pretended logic about miners having to be paid, insurence costs having to be accounted for and whatnot becomes completely moot. Time is isk, if you can transform the minerals into one big lump and sell it off at the same price then well they earned alot of cash by simply mining more minerals rather than flying about to try to peddle off the minerals. wich meens, if you sell the minerals as minerals for x or as a ship for x then you have made the same profit. Also with the pirate situation being as it is ships NEED to be cheep, at the moment the pirate corps can easily take down a battle ship in seconds, that may be ok for the players that belong to huge corps who do massive corp mining sessions with ample protection, but to the small corps and the soloplayers a battleship is a dream we will most probably never see. At the moment there are a very limited number of players, sadly it seems to be dropping, wich meens there is a shortage of demand, a shortage of demand meens you have to lower prices to attract the buyer (economics 101, supply and demand) at this moment its a buyers market, yes people have alot of isk however as the number of people is so low you as the seller have 2 choises, lower the prices or dont make a sale :) Lastly then, a way to guarantee prices go up, right now all I have to do to build an item is to get the minerals install the BP and go off to play the game for a few hours and miracously the item gets built. I prefer it this way as it meens you dont have to tie up your account in stations waiting for production to complete however wouldnt it give prices a boost if you actually had to supervice the construction of the items being built. Its a game, some things are ment to be illogical or noone would play. In any case the attempt to blocade prices will fail, as soon as an idealist gets his hand on a battleship BP all hell will break loose, I for one would gladly sell copies off left and right for the mineral equivilent of the cost for one battle ship, each copy would earn me a ship and the person buing it would consider me generous :)
Relic	Posted - 2003.08.08 07:08:00 - [67] > Dorien Do you mean that by following this process, I could end up selling more units at my current prices as people start to resell the units I make elsewhere across the game. Thats for the heads up, I'll increase my production so that I'm ready for the increased level of orders, looks like I could end up in the wholesale market. Relic

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