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Status of Customer 'care'

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Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:03:00 - [1] This is not a thread about GM rulings but a thread regarding the very standarlized way of not investigating petitons properly. To me reimbursement petitions have long been a joke but with the recent H-PA tradegy, where the server indeed broke it's become obvious that CCP has completely removed any form of 'customer care' from the game. I know that the CCP representatives who posts on the forums defends the GMs with 'they are acting according to our guidelines, dont blame them' - well if that is so, then it's CCP whom are calling their customers liars and being downright disgraceful in the way they communicate with us. During the last three weeks it's become painfully obvious that CCP have neglected the 'customer care' part in pursuit of other things (Chinese server, RMR, Fanfest etc.) instead of sitting down, putting the cards on the table and actually try to right _the_ wrong of all time, the total lack of any 'customer care' atm. Think long and hard, do you really want to alienate the loyal veterans so you can cater for the 3-5 months players who'll jump game whenever theres a new one on the horizon? Or do you want to keep both parties and acknowlegde that you dont have a perfect product but you are doing your best to make it perfect? Atm. all you are saying is your customers are liars and that everything is A-OK, which we all know it isn't. How much damagecontrol can this game take before you've killed it? Instead of acting based on number of accounts cancelled in the last 72 hours try being constructive for once and LISTEN to your customers. Try doing some actual 'customer care' for a change and see if that is not a better approach. You can start by instructing all GMs that there indeed was game related problems in H-PA the other night - that would save you a decent amount of cancelled accounts, and then go on to pro-active customer care. Personally I wont be coming back after new years if things doesn't change, I'm just sad that it wasn't the game itself that made me come to that conclusion but CCP Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
aggro	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:12:00 - [2] i agree with all that was stated. it is about time the customers get treated with respect and not treated with distrust about claiming for lost ships. ccp and gms should acknowledge there are certain problems with the game and be more understanding about petitions. Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:13:00 - [3] Also forced to agree tbh. Customer service has gone downhill rapidly as of late... Shame to be seeing it. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
booh	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:14:00 - [4] signed
Vestas	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:19:00 - [5] Yep - this week for the first time I got a petition response which actually made me angry. Reason? It was VERY obvious that the GM concerned hadn't bothered to do anything other than cut'n'paste "clear your cache". This was about the time that Eris was fielding all the "ban them/burn them" posts re 4S. Not good enough. Really not good enough.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:23:00 - [6] Signed. Auto-replies not relevant to the situation described, are death in the customer service sector. CCP, please update the ship reimbursement denial form letter to take into account the current situation. The existing auto-reply is so out of date, it is offensive to read.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:25:00 - [7] Will say it again, jumping in with 200 ships on 80 ships is stupid [23]
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Discorporation Will say it again, jumping in with 200 ships on 80 ships is stupid Yeah, but you'd expect 50 vs 50 to work.
Tekka	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:36:00 - [9] As much as I hate to... I have to agreed. »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»
Larsson7	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:38:00 - [10] Signed. Standard of customer care is appalling.
commander karin	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:47:00 - [11] signed
SugarDaddy	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:47:00 - [12] Signed. And if I dont get my ship back I will look for a New "Home", but since I just renewd my subscription for another year they wont care. I¦m praying that some big game company buy Eve and make these problems go away, so everyone will be happy, CCP will have money and we will have suport.
EVE Player 41236	Posted - 2005.11.13 18:51:00 - [13] signed !!!
Nee'kita Frist	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:02:00 - [14] This was a very excellant post raising awareness about customer service but I would like to point out the reason why customer service is going the way it is because people who ruin posts with SIGNED or whatever act like Drones. Theres no expression of opinion or providing an example of their past experiance, even if its repeating someone at least type it up so the nesscary people can see it. I would argue the fact that you've typed /signed and expect it to have some weight against what was stated and except it to make an impact customer services will only treat you like a drone. However very good OP and I completely agree with the state of customer services. I recently put in about another matter on billing and I recieved no reply from it but got the email requesting "feedback" so I gave them poor results for not even replying.
Mepfisto	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:05:00 - [15] signed!!!
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:08:00 - [16] The problem with customer care services for lots of companies, not only CCP is that it will always be a loss for them financially speaking. This causes customer service centers to be understaffed permanently, causing huge backlog. You might argue that every customer lost is a double loss for the company, but most of the time customers dont have much choice and if they enjoy the product the chances are they wont leave it very soon. This most probably is also the case with CCP, the managers simply take a look at amount of people leaving and amount of people coming in, and then decide how much money they want to spend on the customer services department.
feiht'd'ero	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:14:00 - [17] erm can i have all your stuffs ?
Fooball	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:19:00 - [18] The customer care isn't atm acting "professionally". How could they, they are not professionals at all. Mostly some lame hobbyists who were just given some status to "support people". Yes, CCP should improve. Insanely a lot.
Galk	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:24:00 - [19] Having previously been the victim of misconduct by eve customer services, i support the original poster. ----------- When they asked me if i knew you, id smile and say you were a friend of mine.
Yolo	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:26:00 - [20] this is from an actual petition... Original petition sent to CCP: Category: Agent Mission in progress Status: In Action Subject: Dead Acceleration Gate _MESSAGE_ wont let me activate the gate to enter the mission. no error message or anything, nothing happens. _END_ Reply from GM Aeryn _MESSAGE_ Hi Yolo, Do you receive any error messages when you try to activate this gate? Best regards, GM Aeryn. _END_ Reply to GM Aeryn _MESSAGE_ wont let me activate the gate to enter the mission. --> "no error message or anything, nothing happens." _END_ is that the kind of costumer support we want?
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Nee'kita Frist This was a very excellant post raising awareness about customer service but I would like to point out the reason why customer service is going the way it is because people who ruin posts with SIGNED or whatever act like Drones. Theres no expression of opinion or providing an example of their past experiance, even if its repeating someone at least type it up so the nesscary people can see it. Fair point, but the people signing have most likely already had a cry about their loss in half a dozen threads (myself included) and repeating the stories is only going to sound like whining. It's always the same story, game experience turns sour, player requests help, player receives a standard reply telling him to accept it and move on. This doesn't need even more case studies. It has already been established that this is what's going on. Now I'll give CCP some credit for recent explanation of how the servers handle loads, and how lag gets distributed. I'm sure the tech guys are doing their bit. I'm just hoping the customer service guys pull their weight too, they are the CCP-player interface after all.
Handon Guild	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:37:00 - [22] Signed - btw, all must die ------------------------------------------------ A day of fun in Denmark
Katamarino	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:41:00 - [23] Signed - it used to be very good but has gone downhill of late - the ingame petition system seems broken, which is a complete joke.
Octavia	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:46:00 - [24] My customer abuse period of the last few days. Quote: Customer (********) - 11/05/2005 07:15 PM Can someone please investigate the sec status loss i have just noticed. 2005.10.21 16:33 Combat - Ship Kill This penalty was incurred for destroying ******* Prophecy in Faswiba I attacked the ship but it was not destroyed, he ran off after attacking and destroying my Covetor then as soon as his flag cleared he docked and logged off. 5 auto responses over 3 days later, Quote: Response ([GM]*****) - 11/10/2005 01:07 AM Hi , Thank you for contacting customer support, I apologize the late reply. I regret to inform you that we will not be able to look into your case. All cases must be send within 7 days of the loss for us to be able to investigate, since your loss happened 2005.10.21 I may not take the time to investigate as described in our reimbursement policy ( http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/reimbursment.asp ) I am sorry for your loss and hope you'll be able to recover as quickly as possible. If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us again. We'll do all we can to help. Best regards, *********** The EVE Online Customer Support Team My Response Quote: Customer (***) - 11/11/2005 08:26 PM Please show me in the reimbursement policy exactly where security status is covered under this seven day rule. Security status is not something a player checks every time you log on and even then how many pages would the log fill after a single hour of mission running or npc hunting in 0.0 ? This is a perfectly reasonable request posted as soon as it was noticed, PLEASE RECTIFY THE ERROR CAUSED CLEARLY BY A BUG IN THE GAME. And their oh so friendly off and stop bothering us Quote: Response ([GM]*****) - 11/11/2005 09:58 PM Hi **, I quote " All reimbursement requests must be sent within a week from when the loss occurred. After that time we will not provide reimbursement." first line above 1. LOST SHIPS I truly am sorry but because if this we can not investigate your case. If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to contact us again. We'll do all we can to help. Best regards, The EVE Online Customer Support Team Now I don't really blame the GM's in question, what does get me annoyed is that they wont even look at it, no if's buts or maybes just get lost. If i notice an accident on my credit card statement 2 months after i recieve it I can question it and it will be investigated as if it was 30 seconds after I got the statement. It is not right to hide behind an all covering blanket of you have 7 days or we dont have to and so we will do nothing. To put this into a different view, whats going to happen if a bug is discovered that corp tax or market broker fees have actually been taking 1% extra on every transaction, how mush does that add up to for some players, think you got a chance of getting that money back? Sorry you should have noticed it when it was introduced and that was over 7 days ago, goodbye, thanks for your subscription.
Octavia	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:53:00 - [25] Sorry, that went on a bit but one other thing to add Sony Online thought they were all powerful too. SWG is in decline so fast that they can not stop it and have to constantly give free items away to keep people playing and buying the add-ons, future in current light doesn't look good for the opening of Jove space expansion.
feiht'd'ero	Posted - 2005.11.13 19:55:00 - [26] hey octavia is there anything you wont petition about ?.
Ast2610	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:03:00 - [27] Signed, also my accounts are paid for another month then im leaving, this was such a great game but nowadays u just waste ure time making isk to get good suff only to have it taken away because ccp refuse to admit theres a problem even when so SOOO many try telling them there is and all u get is the standard " were sry for ure loss but f**k off while i rub myself with ure rl money, and have a nice day :) What a J/K tbfh
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:05:00 - [28] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/11/2005 20:06:32 I especially like the insulting and arrogant "I hope you recover from your loss quickly". That is NOTHING to do with the GM's. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Octavia	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:15:00 - [29] Originally by: feiht'd'ero hey octavia is there anything you wont petition about ?. No. To put that in perspective I started in Beta 2 when the Radeon 9500 first came out and they needed people with the card to beta test and let in the 3rd wave of beta testers, since that time I have submitted 9 petitions and around 20 quantifiable bug reports, what has your contribution been ? Oh and my origional corp is listed in Prima's Official Strategy Guide, I have been in this game a long time, through good and bad, at the moment the support is as bad as it has been for a very long time, not the worst but well below what we should be given and expect to be given.
DevBlogHaxor	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/11/2005 20:06:32 I especially like the insulting and arrogant "I hope you recover from your loss quickly". That is NOTHING to do with the GM's. I agree, the GM's need a little extra common sense put into them, thats about all thats wrong with them, and perhaps they should be paid by the hour and not by how many issues they "resolve". They seem to rush though the tickets as fast as possible, but you must remember there may be technical reasons why they wont be able to help you sometimes, when this happens, they should inform you why they can't help you, rather than just saying they can't help you. At least you'll know why and won't feel like being put off to the side.
Ammend	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:21:00 - [31] Edited by: Ammend on 13/11/2005 20:22:07 I have been playing mmos since the beginning of UO. Througout all of these games i've played i've noticed one thing: The more customers a company gets, the worse the customer service gets. They start to get arrogant and think that ignoring their playerbase will not have any repercussions; and 90% of the time they're right. Players may complain nonstop, but they will continue to play and continue to pay.
Ander	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:21:00 - [32] This thread needs locking ;P or not... but it's still breaking a few rules in the TOS. No quoting GM's dudes.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:31:00 - [33] Please dont lock this thread - clean it instead! Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Octavia	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:39:00 - [34] Please, dont lock the thread. It may or may not do some good, just clear the GM names. However if the thread does get locked it will just prove what it thought of us and our opinons.
Shittake	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:48:00 - [35] Edited by: **take on 13/11/2005 20:48:16 I personally submitted petition about items lost in a trade and was basically told "oh well, you cannot prove it." Stuck petitions seem to be dealt with promptly from my experience BUT reimbursement of my Apoc as pirates shot at me from 4au away while I was in a safespot must be my fault. I have been here since week 1 of the game and run 3 accounts. Performance AND customer care has degraded slowly ever since then.
Hast	Posted - 2005.11.13 20:56:00 - [36] I am forced to agree. Nothing at all ****es me off more then cut and paste responses that has little or nothing to do with the case... Lately it seems that getting your ship replaced is a roll of the dice...
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:01:00 - [37] I think CCP has excellent customer service. But I also think that with the recent, but now common lag problems, they need to adopt a more liberal reimbursement policy. It seems that the current policy does not acknowledge the fact that lag and server issues are now common place events. Perhaps management needs to have a talk with the GM's about loosening the restrictions on reimbursements.

Kaemonn	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:14:00 - [38] Please DO NOT post GM disscussions at all. You are allowed to make a summary of what was said, but ommit GM names and accual quotes. If you want to dispute a GM ruling please use the "ask a question" feature and ask for a Senior GM. Im not going to lock this thread as it does contain some contructive posts. If you would like to discuss moderation please mail us at [email protected]. Thanks. forum rules \| [email protected]

feiht'd'ero	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Megadon they need to adopt a more liberal reimbursement policy. It seems that the current policy does not acknowledge the fact that lag and server issues are now common place events. . I would imagin but not to certain that lag cannot be proved atm, as in was it your computer that caused lag or your isp or ccp servers. but if they did relax the refunds rule i could see an influx of fake claims. There are people out there who will go to any lengths to gain free items, these people are the cause of such stringent rules, so just think of that when an alliance member says "hahahaha ccp just refunded me my lost ship cos i said crashed"
Neon Genesis	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:17:00 - [40] Hate this kind of post, eve is growing, there is no decline. There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:32:00 - [41] Originally by: feiht'd'ero Originally by: Megadon they need to adopt a more liberal reimbursement policy. It seems that the current policy does not acknowledge the fact that lag and server issues are now common place events. . I would imagin but not to certain that lag cannot be proved atm, as in was it your computer that caused lag or your isp or ccp servers. but if they did relax the refunds rule i could see an influx of fake claims. There are people out there who will go to any lengths to gain free items, these people are the cause of such stringent rules, so just think of that when an alliance member says "hahahaha ccp just refunded me my lost ship cos i said crashed" Problem is that ALL the 4 alliances involved in the combat acknowleged that the serveres was lagged to hell. CCP however claims everything was dandy. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Gonada	Posted - 2005.11.13 21:56:00 - [42] from another thread , seemed alot of the ppl lagged were using p2 comps, nothing like using 10 year old technology in the modern age. secondly, though i think everyone agrees that there are lag problems generated by the sheer amount of people, cccp wouldnt notice the loss of accounts at all, might even actually clear up the whiner posts on the board. thirdly, you dont want to play, then dont, noones forcing you, sometimes the addiction is hard to break, "i will quit" posts do not make you cool you know. -Baby can you dig your man-
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:08:00 - [43] meh, I wrote a long post but who cares.... It's sad when the forum mods are better representatives than the GM's atm and they are volinteers...
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.13 22:43:00 - [44] I'd love a reply from one of the CCP representatives about this issue. Do you agree that the customer service is not what it should be or could be? Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Samsson	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Darkrydar meh, I wrote a long post but who cares.... It's sad when the forum mods are better representatives than the GM's atm and they are volinteers... Who says customer care is not volunteers.
Vestas	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:32:00 - [46] I'd like to clarify that I've only just re-subbed. I've not actually had a bad experience with GMs before - they've always been pretty reasonable. Something has happened since I left I reckon - Iceland Telecom outsourced it to China?
R31D	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:39:00 - [47] I think Ander's post on eve-pirate.com here demonstrates CCP's re-imbursement policy rather well... Free bumpage for all
Haematite	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:40:00 - [48] Edited by: Haematite on 13/11/2005 23:40:26 Waste of time imho, my last ship that i lost after being totaly lagged that my Client froze, but as they say its all about log's or Lack of. Yeh right i showed them a pic of the 164ppl in the same Grid and what i was left looking at on my screen, waste of my time sending them and the petition. Im wating now to be moved after getting stuck in NOL, this is the second time in 10mins i got stuck, and this time ive been wating 30mins and still not been moved. :(
Zigadenus	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:50:00 - [49] Originally by: Gonada secondly, though i think everyone agrees that there are lag problems generated by the sheer amount of people, cccp wouldnt notice the loss of accounts at all, might even actually clear up the whiner posts on the board. thirdly, you dont want to play, then dont, noones forcing you, sometimes the addiction is hard to break, "i will quit" posts do not make you cool you know. If things continue down the route they are on currently, rest assured these people won't play (accounts are already being cancelled). Sure there might be more peace on this issue in the forums then, since the remainder of subscribing members will either be those not yet affected by an issue that CCP repeatedly refuses/fails to resolve or are just plain old chumps and suckers. The game and all who play it will definitely suffer for that, so all this "whining" might be productive if it helps to improve the situation. ________________________________________________ Kyle > Why do you have to ask me all these complicated questions? Zerodragon > Dude, IÆm trying to save your setup from complete suckage.
Raznarok	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:58:00 - [50] Originally by: R31D I think Ander's post on eve-pirate.com here demonstrates CCP's re-imbursement policy rather well... I have never come across it where it says "warping" for 30secs, perhaps its a hardware/processing fault with his puter. Personally I've never had a bad customer service experience. But then again I've only ever petitioned 3 ships and they were all recognized as server side issues, which were all replaced. My replies have all been clear and informative, maybe its just the way that people are making their claims to CCP? Being polite gets a way quicker response.
Ander	Posted - 2005.11.13 23:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Raznarok Originally by: R31D I think Ander's post on eve-pirate.com here demonstrates CCP's re-imbursement policy rather well... I have never come across it where it says "warping" for 30secs, perhaps its a hardware/processing fault with his puter. Personally I've never had a bad customer service experience. But then again I've only ever petitioned 3 ships and they were all recognized as server side issues, which were all replaced. My replies have all been clear and informative, maybe its just the way that people are making their claims to CCP? Being polite gets a way quicker response. Thing is, if I had the same issue on NPC:ing I'd get reimbursed. But not while PVP:ing.
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.11.14 00:06:00 - [52] Originally by: Samsson Originally by: Darkrydar meh, I wrote a long post but who cares.... It's sad when the forum mods are better representatives than the GM's atm and they are volinteers... Who says customer care is not volunteers. CCP
M3ta7h3ad	Posted - 2005.11.14 00:13:00 - [53] I have to say reading the recent devblogs on the name change issues. It certainly does appear that CCP lack the ability to administer customer service. While the name changes were done without the correct information: This should never happen, and a junior gm should not have the permissions to do it. The punishment of a temporary ban for the shuttle protest in jita is shocking. In effect they have said over the past few days. "We cant keep track of our own staff, even junior members of staff can have access to core game functions when they shouldnt have. Oh.. and if you break the law, and create disproportionatly high loads, we'll give you a slap on the wrist, but give it a few weeks and we'll let you back in, oh... and that thing you were protesting over, yea... we've changed it back for you" THEY BROKE THE LAW. PROSECUTE THEM. If I managed to hack into your systems, gaining access of a GM account and proceeded to disrupt the game, I'd expect a darn sight more than just a temporary ban. I'd expect scotland yard cybercrimes division on my doorstep, with a big van ready to take me and my computer away for a long long time. But you've basically said "ah well.. declare it as a protest and we'll let it slide". Get your damn staff under control, start considering actually putting in a framework for punishments, and standardise your treatment of customers, because right now its a shambles.
StiZum Hilidii	Posted - 2005.11.14 01:13:00 - [54] Originally by: Gonada from another thread , seemed alot of the ppl lagged were using p2 comps, nothing like using 10 year old technology in the modern age. secondly, though i think everyone agrees that there are lag problems generated by the sheer amount of people, cccp wouldnt notice the loss of accounts at all, might even actually clear up the whiner posts on the board. thirdly, you dont want to play, then dont, noones forcing you, sometimes the addiction is hard to break, "i will quit" posts do not make you cool you know. 1 you seem to have lost the plot 2 running a 3.6 p4 with 2gb of ram a 6600gt gfx card on a 2mb line. not the most amazing setup ever but it works on bf2 so i dont care, but during the whole lagging out issue my screen didnt even load so stfu nicely written post though about customer service unfortunatly ccp dont give a monkeys STAN FACTA NON VERBA ALTS FTL
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 02:10:00 - [55] I hope that someone from CCP will prove you wrong and post here Stiz, but I highly doubt it though. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Syrus666	Posted - 2005.11.14 02:25:00 - [56] Well written post Drilla, There is definately something lacking with the customer support. I actually find it quite funny comparing the PvP reimbursement request responses as they are almost word for word identical most of the time. The replies to me indicate that the GM's simply do not have sufficient tools at thier disposal to monitor the server (proxy & therefore latency issues), and this in itself should be looked into.
Icarus Starkiller	Posted - 2005.11.14 02:43:00 - [57] Not only ship loss, but pretty much any petition besides 'stuck' gets you a slap in the face without even a cookie. For instance.. Perusing escrow one night I came across 7 sales by the same individual for rare faction items at considerably below cost, but inspecting the escrow revealed - an empty escrow. 7 times. I petitioned this little feat (making empty escrows is a bug that some folks seem to have capitalized on), and the GM response was: There are items in the escrow. He did not tell me what they were, only that there were items in the escrow. I figure, okay, so he put items into the escrow... bugged items, and for sure not what was advertized (I did not claim any - waste of my ISK & time), which the individual making the escrows knew would not show up when 'inspected' (why else put them up for such 'grab me quick!' prices?), but the GM said that there were items in the escrow and it was not an exploit of a bug, end of story. I have since seen many more 'empty' escrows, from that individual and others, en masse... But the GM would never tell me what was hidden for the unwary in that empty escrow (because he probably could not see them any better than I could but was not about to knock the abusers's head because it was too much work. Another... a ship loss (legitimate but confusing) - A fully tanked ship with super resistances against the target that literally and in very short order blow it to flinders as if no resistances were being factored at all. Totally flummoxed at the rather instantaneous death to rats that had previously never been able to make that ship sweat I went and looked for the log of that incident... ... there was NO LOG. Anywhere, for that entire day for any encounter at all (and I had been hunting rats for hours). The only 'logs' were system changes & chats and that was IT, nothing else. of course, there were no problems on CCP's end... but I was unable to review what went wrong on my end because for 36 hours there was not a single combat log produced. Customer lack-of-service & canned responses are bringing EVE closer to the brick wall that I've heard that WOW custserv is. Life is pain...anyone who says differently is selling something.
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.11.14 03:12:00 - [58] Edited by: nahtoh on 14/11/2005 03:12:22 Never had any issues with the customer care I have recived from the GMs, even when they have not reimbursed me for losses. But I can't be the only thinking that heads may have rolled in the GM team over the 4S and SAS renaming incident. And if thats the case the GM team might be playing it safe by sticking strictly to the rules and guidelines. Then again working in a support role I may have much different expectations than non-support types. Oh aye and what happened to the "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" types of comments? I do think that if for instance a Jita or other hub system mission runner had typed this post they would have been charboiled on the spot. PS and a lot of support types first thought on "I am going to quit if this is not changed!!!!!!!!!" normally revoles around "fantastic one less twonker" or "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out" Ofcourse the longer you have been doing support the more likley you are to wish for them to just sodd off and die... "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
skilz	Posted - 2005.11.14 06:17:00 - [59] My friend lost his entire hanger of 500 items, boom, poof gone. (about 500mil worth of mods) they told him that it never existed... --
Prydeless	Posted - 2005.11.14 06:42:00 - [60] Break out the pickets Let the witch hunt begin! Anyways, never had a problem with customer support so I am a happy camper! w00t for Prydeless!
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 09:10:00 - [61] Originally by: nahtoh Edited by: nahtoh on 14/11/2005 03:12:22I do think that if for instance a Jita or other hub system mission runner had typed this post they would have been charboiled on the spot. PS and a lot of support types first thought on "I am going to quit if this is not changed!!!!!!!!!" normally revoles around "fantastic one less twonker" or "don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out" Ofcourse the longer you have been doing support the more likley you are to wish for them to just sodd off and die... We're not talking about a single guy in Jita, we're talking about entire 0.0 alliances of players that have played since day 1 of the game who finally have had enough. If one guy say CCP is wrong - it's word against word. If 300+ people, several different fraps video say CCP is wrong it ignorance thinking CCP is right. You know that CCP claims that 200 out of the 300 people had local router (as in your own house) problems at the excat same time when the 220+ fleet jumped into the 90 man fleet. CCP has completely denied that this could in any way shape or form be a problem serverside and as such it must have been a problem with people ISPs. In CCPs eyes it's more logical that the moment the 220+ man fleet jumps the gate, 50-100 different ISPs around the world had localized problems. If that is not total bs then I dont know what is. It's not like we're talking about people with small computers and/or internet lines. Most people have 2,5Ghz+, 512-1GB ram, Geforce4 or better graphicscards - so you see that blaming this on dozens of ISPs worldwide is simple idiocy. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.11.14 09:17:00 - [62] How could the GM's have time to answer ship reimbursement petitions when they are too busy ignoring the thousands of POS petitions every day? Fix pos's, buggiest aspect of the game, and when they screw up, you lost way more than a ship.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 10:01:00 - [63] It's become evident that CCP calls EVE a PVP game but have instructed the GMs to not even read a petiton if you are 'flagged' as a PVPer - if you however only do agent missions or mine, well the situation is quite different. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Lanfear's Bane	Posted - 2005.11.14 10:18:00 - [64] I got warned for something I didn't do and told that my logs proved I had. Petitioned it and was basically told I was a liar. Persisted and they amended the warning to something else instead and never bothered to apologise for the original warning after keeping me hanging around and extremely angry for a couple of hours. The best bit is there is no ingame way of monitoring what I had done accidently and was warned for. When I asked how to avoid accidently doing it again I was advised to keep a notepad beside the computer and keep lists. Lanfear's Bane. _____________________________________________________________ If you hear muffled screams please use the next cargo bay.
KIATolon	Posted - 2005.11.14 10:49:00 - [65] I've been told to quit the game by a GM before. I didn't even rant swear or complain. Perhaps he was having a bad day. It was just a regular petition about a megathron I couldn't warp out due to the old chatbug.
AngryTex	Posted - 2005.11.14 11:15:00 - [66] Signed. Also, cancelling my subscription to Eve. I for one will not pay for a product that is defective.
Flyer11	Posted - 2005.11.14 11:44:00 - [67] I've petitioned alot of things before, bugs and problems. many were sorted out very quickly and i praise the gm's for that. i petitioned a scam to the gm's about a month ago [still not heard anything back] about the ebaying scams, buying isk for RL money etc.. i know ccp could contact ebay ot have these things removed and stopped as i've had a item removed before with no problems[not my account]so ill ask again when is ccp going to stop these scams as from what i know it breaks the EULA.. and if the devlopers and owners of eve wont enforce it then why should everyone else abide to the EULA.. where does the cycle end also.. i recently petitioned a char sheet error as i had been trianing gunnery from lvl 4-lvl5 8days training.. i have a screenshot of skill saying it was complete shown here Screenshot but then i relog onto the next day to find it had gone back to the start of lvl 4.. i got a reply from the gm's stating i had not lost any SP so therefor it was a a display bug.. after loosing 4days worth of training due to turning skill on and off or clearing my eve cache like i was asked to by the gm or waiting for a responce, the least they could of done was bump the skill up the 4 days i had missed out waiting for a responce. tho the gm's do a fine job from what ive sseen before i do find large holes in certain areas they call "customer service", i own my own web design company if i offered the same level of customer service that ccp do to my customers i'd be flat broke and gone out of buisnes, please ccp will you re-consider your customer service department, many companies give there customer service departments not very much cash and it will then show in the customer service reps.. btw this is not a rant.. im purely voicing my opinion and concerns Flyer11 CEO And Founder of H20 Designz
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 11:46:00 - [68] Originally by: Drilla It's become evident that CCP calls EVE a PVP game but have instructed the GMs to not even read a petiton if you are 'flagged' as a PVPer - if you however only do agent missions or mine, well the situation is quite different. I'm sure that is not the case. However, when you have the same player petitioning for ship loss week after week, for exactly the same cause, it's understandable that a certain amount of skepticism is generated. Especially when the player would have known the likely outcome of the action before they performed it. Originally by: Drilla Problem is that ALL the 4 alliances involved in the combat acknowleged that the serveres was lagged to hell. CCP however claims everything was dandy Well, technically the server was doing exactly what it should do under the conditions your alliances put it under, so there is no bug there. The lag there would have been of your own making, so frankly I'm not surprised they expect you to bear the consequences of it yourselves. From a lot of the comments in this thread, it appears many people have incorrect expectations of what can be petitioned for reimbursement. Some people might want to review the reimbursements policy. In the context of fleet battle lag, I would draw attention to this section in particular: Originally by: reimbursements policy Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
s4mp3r0r	Posted - 2005.11.14 11:49:00 - [69] i agree totally that the Eve customer service does not = service. But keep this constructive please. To all involved instead of spamming with yet another petition you know is going to fail, try to volunteer yourself. So I tried this myself : sent a mail 3 workdays ago, still waiting. Maybe if we spam them with "i wanna help mails" they will get the picture, plus it's constructive. Proud CEO of the I have a mirel yirrin corpse and do freaky things to it club. Convo me ingame for details on how to join, and a free " I ♥ mirel yirrin Ö" Bumpersticker!!
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.14 11:53:00 - [70] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: reimbursements policy Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed. Actually Matthew I have had that very section clarified. The 'lag' in that statement is specifically network latency outside of CCP's control, and not 'lag' experienced through exceptional server load. LAg is such a terrible term, because it doesn't actually specifically relate to a cause, only the symptoms. Lag is the delay between you doing something and it happening. It can be due to network latency, or to a slow server. If the lag experienced is due to an issue within CCPs server cluster, then the section you quoted does not apply. If the game becomes unresponsive due to the server being unable to handle the load being placed on it through normal gameplay, losses should be reimbursed. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.11.14 12:25:00 - [71] The GMs are paid employees that have a lot of stuff to get through - you know how backlogged the petition system is at the moment and when anything goes wrong. They use specified documented processes for everything they can because it speeds the process up. Perhaps under the current strain they need more GM staff and with the recent issues they could probably do with a review of documented processes in due time, perhaps some more staff hired from the playerbase and new training, but they really are doing they best they can at a thankless job. I'll re-iterate: It seems they're doing everything a very standardised way because they are. And they need to in order to deal with the demand for their services. If you want to be handled personally, you can always ask for a Senior GM, but a lot of people ask for that and it isn't always possible. And I'll be glad to see you go. One less Shinra :).
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 12:33:00 - [72] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Matthew Originally by: reimbursements policy Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed. Actually Matthew I have had that very section clarified. The 'lag' in that statement is specifically network latency outside of CCP's control, and not 'lag' experienced through exceptional server load. Fair enough, thanks for sharing the clarification. So lets look at the other bit of the statement, namely: Quote: Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. There's no actual bug there that's causing this lag - it's entirely the product of the players collective action. It is also a well-known effect, and it's reasonable to expect the players involved to have taken it into account before starting. Originally by: Avon If the game becomes unresponsive due to the server being unable to handle the load being placed on it through normal gameplay, losses should be reimbursed. I would argue that the sort of fleet battles we're talking about here are far from "normal" gameplay. They are exceptional actions that a small minority of the playerbase insists on pursuing despite them being well aware that the server will have trouble with it. I have some sympathy for the other players trapped on the same node as one of these blobs, as they don't have a choice in the matter. But I have no sympathy for those in the blob itself. They know exactly what they're doing, and exactly what the likely outcome is, yet they still choose to do it. If something isn't working, you engage your brain and find some other way of working. You don't just keep smacking your head against the problem and expect customer support to pick up the pieces. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 12:38:00 - [73] Originally by: Matthew I would argue that the sort of fleet battles we're talking about here are far from "normal" gameplay. They are exceptional actions that a small minority of the playerbase insists on pursuing despite them being well aware that the server will have trouble with it. You are ofc. entitled to your opinion however ignorant it may be. Fact is that CCP has advertized this feature (big fleet battles), it had been possible to some extent in the past and if the servers indeed could handle it, it would be an every day occurance! And the thing about minorit of the playerbase is so far from the truth that it's just sad. PVP 0.0 alliances makes up the vast part of EVE, if not go run the numbers. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.14 12:45:00 - [74] Matthew, fleet battles are part of the game design. Huge fleet battles used to be perfectly possible - I was in a few and the lag was noticeable, but bearable. More importantly the nodes didn't crash. Over time the game has become less able to cope with such battles, almost certainly a symptom of the increased playerbase (although I am sure something happened in shiva/exodus which made things worse too). The question is this though. How do players know what the node is going to handle on any particular occasion? One day you might fight 100v100 with no issues, the next 80 jumping in to 50 crashed the node. It is unreasonable to assume the players will know the current load on the nodes, and how close to capacity they may be - there is just no way of knowing. To blame the players for the systems inability to cope is folly. ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:28:00 - [75] Originally by: Matthew There's no actual bug there that's causing this lag - it's entirely the product of the players collective action. It is also a well-known effect, and it's reasonable to expect the players involved to have taken it into account before starting. Have CCP ever come and said 'Sorry lads, our servers cannot handle these large fleet battles at all. We reccomend you dont fight in anything bigger than 20 ships per side'? Sure it may be common knowledge that their are problems with fleet battles this size, but its certainly not official knowledge afaik is it? Until it is, its reasonable for players to expect it to be playable is it not? Of course, if CCP have already come and said this, then i apologise. - Just a simple warrior.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:31:00 - [76] Originally by: Matthew Quote: Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. There's no actual bug there that's causing this lag - it's entirely the product of the players collective action. It is also a well-known effect, and it's reasonable to expect the players involved to have taken it into account before starting. So CCP should never replace ships lost to lag? But they do, and they have. So wheres the common rule? - Just a simple warrior.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Drilla Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Drilla It's become evident that CCP calls EVE a PVP game but have instructed the GMs to not even read a petiton if you are 'flagged' as a PVPer - if you however only do agent missions or mine, well the situation is quite different. I'm sure that is not the case. Please read this! So from anecdotal evidence from 7 petition claims, you're assuming there's some great conspiracy against PvP players? The problem is that you don't know what their server-side stuff was showing for any of those things. The GM stated they can't replace due to lag unless server load passes some "critical" point. This will be load on your specific node, so number of players online is not a reliable indicator of a fair test - the distribution of the players is far more important, but is something players cannot monitor. For all we know, the server was below the critical point for the PvP tests, yet tipped over the edge on the NPC tests. Originally by: Drilla Your reasoning is badly flawed that most of the people getting the shaft from CCP GMs are prople with less than 10 petitions over a period of 2 years. Really? Always seems to be the same people coming back here time and again to moan about it. Originally by: Drilla So you are saying that the 90 man gang in H-PA should have told the 220 man gang not to jump in? You really think they would have listened? Please come back to reality. All the alliances are as guilty as each other in this blobbing-up behaviour. The only difference is which one feels more aggrieved about it afterwards. Besides, I would have to wonder just how different the outcome would have been had the entire thing gone perfectly smoothly. 90 vs 220 sounds to me that the 90 would have been forced to move away or suffer huge casualties anyway. With 220 potentially jumping in. they should have known the lag would be bad and relying on being able to retreat at that point would have been risky at best. The only possible reasons I can think of to stay there are: 1) Stand your ground and get massacared 2) Assume those jumping in will lag more than you and use that to kill them all. I'm assuming The Five are smart enough not to do 1, so I can only assume they had planned on doing 2. Originally by: Drilla Fact of the matter is that if the servers cant handle the load then they simply have to impose a limit to how many can jump through a gate and a limit in local. Maybe they should, given the complete inability to exersise restraint or common sense that's being demonstrated by the playerbase. Originally by: Drilla Fact is that CCP has advertized this feature (big fleet battles), it had been possible to some extent in the past and if the servers indeed could handle it, it would be an every day occurance! When they advertised big fleet battles, did they say how big "big" actually was? By the scale of most online games, 30 vs 30 could easily be considered "big". So you admit you know the servers can't handle it, and you do it less as a result? My question would be why do you do it at all in that case. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:41:00 - [78] Originally by: Drilla And the thing about minorit of the playerbase is so far from the truth that it's just sad. PVP 0.0 alliances makes up the vast part of EVE, if not go run the numbers Adding up membership in all the PVP 0.0 alliances, I can come to 15-16k characters tops. Even if we assume I've missed a couple of thousand, that's still only around 1/4 of the 70k total of accounts. Which counts as a minority. That's also assuming that none of those registered alliance chars are 2nd or 3rd chars on the same account. Add to that the fact that the majority of that alliance membership cannot possibly be involved in the fleet battles on anything like a regular basis. Even if they were all involved in just 1 a week, that would be 100 100vs100 fleet battles needed every week in order for all of them to be involved. Which is no-where near the number actually occuring. The truth is that it's the same small group of people that try the battles every time, and the same small group that comes on the forums to whine about it afterwards. Originally by: Avon The question is this though. How do players know what the node is going to handle on any particular occasion? One day you might fight 100v100 with no issues, the next 80 jumping in to 50 crashed the node. It is unreasonable to assume the players will know the current load on the nodes, and how close to capacity they may be - there is just no way of knowing. To blame the players for the systems inability to cope is folly. I'm not suggesting they have to know exactly how well the server is going to cope. Just that they need to accept and expect that the server could have such issues, and be prepared to deal with the consequences. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Have CCP ever come and said 'Sorry lads, our servers cannot handle these large fleet battles at all. We reccomend you dont fight in anything bigger than 20 ships per side'? Sure it may be common knowledge that their are problems with fleet battles this size, but its certainly not official knowledge afaik is it? Until it is, its reasonable for players to expect it to be playable is it not? While they've never come out with a statement of "please don't fight in groups larger than X", there have been many Dev acknowledgements that large battles have lag problems. They've staged open stress tests on Sisi to recreate the problem and fleet battles have always featured as a primary driver for optimisations. So it's reasonable to expect it to be fairly common knowledge. It's certainly resonable to expect it of the very experienced players that are involved in and organise these sort of battles. Incidentally, there is an entry in the knowledgebase that, while not directly related to fleet battles, gives an indication that not reimbursing for player-generated lag is a long-standing policy, and that a differentiation is made between lag caused by player actions and lag caused by system problems. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
gfldex	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:45:00 - [79] I can remember a nice fleet battle some weeks after the fall of CA. It happend in Keberz and even a lot locals came to watch the show. Numbers where like 50 vs 50 plus the locals. Most ppl don't got any lag at all and there where countless drones out too. That _was_ fun! -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:51:00 - [80] I know about 10-15 people in the entire .5. alliance who only have one account. Most have 3 accounts or more. So using your logic we'll average it out to 3 accounts pr. player and then we come to 75% of the entire community. sure 75% of the paying subscribers are a minority And your comments on 'restraint' for avoid fleet battles are so ignorant that this will be my last reply to you as you re clearly incapable of grasping common sense. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 13:55:00 - [81] Edited by: Khaldorn Murino on 14/11/2005 13:57:40 Originally by: Matthew The truth is that it's the same small group of people that try the battles every time, and the same small group that comes on the forums to whine about it afterwards. While i dont agree with the original posters in their entirety I find your knowledge of inside matters most enlightening. How do you know this for a fact Matthew?. And you whining about whiners hardly re-inforces your high ground on this matter :] Also, lets not use hte time whiners generically. It's a derogatory term and many people actually come here with constructive critism. But people call it whining because either its not their line of thinking or they dont participate in it and theirfore dont care. If people want to fight in large fleet battles, I dont see why they shouldn't be able too. I roleplay, i think thats probably one of your minorities their Matthew, but I argue for change that would make my game better and argue when things happen which make my game worse. Am i a whiner? - Just a simple warrior.
Syrus666	Posted - 2005.11.14 14:19:00 - [82] Originally by: Matthew 1) Stand your ground and get massacared 2) Assume those jumping in will lag more than you and use that to kill them all. I'm assuming The Five are smart enough not to do 1, so I can only assume they had planned on doing 2. Actually we just wanted a good fight, so 1), dying isnt important, it how much fun u have doing so
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 14:41:00 - [83] Originally by: Drilla I know about 10-15 people in the entire .5. alliance who only have one account. Most have 3 accounts or more. So using your logic we'll average it out to 3 accounts pr. player and then we come to 75% of the entire community. sure 75% of the paying subscribers are a minority So you're saying that pretty much the entire .5. alliance has 3 or more accounts per player, and that only one char from one account of each player is a registered .5. member, and that none of the chars registered within .5. alliance are from lapsed accounts? But we can play about with char and account numbers all day and not really get anywhere. Far more enlightening would be to add up the total numebrs involved in every fleet battle in a given time period, and how many players are observed doing other things. To match even the hub system's population, you'd have to have 5-10 100-man fights going on every night. For fleet actions to make up even 1/10th of a weekend evening's load would need around 1500 players to be involved in one. I've seen no evidence that there is anything like that level of fleet activity going on. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino And you whining about whiners hardly re-inforces your high ground on this matter :] I'm not whining about the whiners, I'm arguing against their points. There is a difference. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Also, lets not use the term whiners generically. It's a derogatory term and many people actually come here with constructive critism. But people call it whining because either its not their line of thinking or they dont participate in it and theirfore dont care. Which is why you won't find that word anywhere in my posts (apart from in this one where it's a quote from you, of course). Originally by: Khaldorn Murino If people want to fight in large fleet battles, I dont see why they shouldn't be able too. Every game in the entire history of computer gaming has had a limit to the size of battle it can handle, the number of players or units supported, and just how far it can push technology before something has to give. While it would be nice if Eve could break through these RL performance boundaries, the Devs do not have any magical enchantments they can put on the server to make this possible. Every game has limits like this which have to be worked around, this is one of Eve's. Players sticking their heads in the sand over it isn't going to change that. Bashing themselves on the wall of it isn't going to change that. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino I roleplay, i think thats probably one of your minorities their Matthew, but I argue for change that would make my game better and argue when things happen which make my game worse. Am i a whiner? I wouldn't mind if they were arguing for a game change. If they were arguing for tweaks and optimisations to make fleet battles work better, I'd be supporting them (admittedly whilst explaining why such things are very difficult, can take time and they shouldn't expect miraculous improvements). It's the the reimbursement claims for problems that they willfully cause themselves that I disagree with. For example, the roleplaying community campaigned, and won, the mutual wardec option. But before the feature was in, you continued paying the war fees. You didn't start petitioning for reimbursement of the fees on the grounds the system couldn't handle what you wanted to do. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 14:46:00 - [84] Originally by: Syrus666 Originally by: Matthew 1) Stand your ground and get massacared 2) Assume those jumping in will lag more than you and use that to kill them all. I'm assuming The Five are smart enough not to do 1, so I can only assume they had planned on doing 2. Actually we just wanted a good fight, so 1), dying isnt important, it how much fun u have doing so If you're genuinely that gagging for a fight, then fair enough. But surely you must have known that with 200+ players jumping in at once, there was no realistic prospect of a "fun" fight? Those sort of numbers are a guarantee of a lagfest, and I can't believe shooting lagged-out enemies is in any way a satisfying fight, any more than being the one lagged out would be. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 14:54:00 - [85] Fair enough, just a pet hate of mine the whiner word :) Oh, and i remember the joint mining op and protest, Archy made quite a cool video of that, was fun :) Watch those roids, there dangerous! Matthew, your knowledge scares me dude. How do you remember all this stuff? - Just a simple warrior.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:08:00 - [86] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Matthew, your knowledge scares me dude. How do you remember all this stuff? I seem to be able to soak up trivia about computer games, TV shows etc, yet completely ignore any vital RL details. Nothing more frustrating than sitting in an exam being able to remember all the key formulae relating to Eve, but not the one formula I need to pass the exam! (I eventually made up something that looked plausible from the first principles, and must have got lucky, as I passed). You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:11:00 - [87] lol. :) Still, dont you think it would be a good idea to limit gang sizes if the servers arent able to cope with them? - Just a simple warrior.
Del Narveux	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:20:00 - [88] Ive never had a problem getting a petition through, but sometimes it takes a while and is clear the GMs are just copy-pasting canned responses at least at first...I guess its like CS with other companies, got to talk to the machine and "is your computay turned on?" guys before you can get to the source of it... Anyway if you lose a ship due to a verifiable case of server lag (i.e. a node crash) it ought to be a reimbursement NQA. _________________ [SAK] And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:25:00 - [89] Originally by: Del Narveux Anyway if you lose a ship due to a verifiable case of server lag (i.e. a node crash) it ought to be a reimbursement NQA. But they refuse :/ Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:33:00 - [90] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino lol. :) Still, dont you think it would be a good idea to limit gang sizes if the servers arent able to cope with them? Yes, and gang system improvements are on the drawingboard, which include limiting individual gang sizes. Unfortunately, limiting gang sizes wouldn't help in fleet battles - the huge fleet would just be split into a nubmer of gangs, but they'd all still crowd into the same place. As the problem is caused by crowding into a specific area, the limit would have to be based on an area of space. The problem with limiting is what limits you apply where. You could limit the total number allowed in a system, but that has problems. 400 people spread around the system still works ok (e.g. Jita), but 400 people in the same grid is hell. You'd have to limit the entire system to the capacity of a single grid. This has the potential to create gridlocks around busy systems. e.g those wanting into jita can't get in cause it's full, but those in jita can't get out because those waiting have filled up the surrounding systems. If you apply the limit per grid, you have the issue of what to do with over-limit people trying to get into the grid. You could drop them out of warp early. But what happens if you're warping as part of a group that would go over the limit? But you would have to be ganged to be recognised as a group to be stopped together, otherwise half the group would arrive, half wouldn't, and you'd be defeated. You'd also have to have some sort of "invisible wall" to stop people warping to a BM in the neigbouring grid and MWD-ing into the crowded one. Also, if the grid has a jumpgate in it, what if someone tries to jump in? Do they get dumped into a neighbouring grid and allowed to bypass the gate camp crowd? Are they denied jumping until there's space? That could create another gridlock situation - with a gridfull of fleet facing off either side of a gate, neither side would be able to jump in on the other. Limiting the rate at which people can go through a jumpgate might help, but it would put the ones jumping in at a significant disadvantage. While it would be nice to think limits would be an easy way out, they aren't at all simple to implement in eve's non-instanced setting, nor are they without disadvantages of their own. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:40:00 - [91] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Khaldorn Murino lol. :) Still, dont you think it would be a good idea to limit gang sizes if the servers arent able to cope with them? Yes, and gang system improvements are on the drawingboard, which include limiting individual gang sizes. The drawingboard has lots of Soon(tm) stuff on it ;) No, all you would need is to limit gang sizes and for CCP to say they dont support petitions from fights larger than 40 a side and anyone participating in battles larger than that, well, they are then there own responsibility. Still, its a shame. Better option would be to get the system to handle these larger fights. Which is im sure, what Oveur is aiming for. - Just a simple warrior.
Flyyn	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:42:00 - [92] Originally by: Ander Originally by: Raznarok Originally by: R31D I think Ander's post on eve-pirate.com here demonstrates CCP's re-imbursement policy rather well... I have never come across it where it says "warping" for 30secs, perhaps its a hardware/processing fault with his puter. Personally I've never had a bad customer service experience. But then again I've only ever petitioned 3 ships and they were all recognized as server side issues, which were all replaced. My replies have all been clear and informative, maybe its just the way that people are making their claims to CCP? Being polite gets a way quicker response. Thing is, if I had the same issue on NPC:ing I'd get reimbursed. But not while PVP:ing. Humm maybe because you "Expect" to lose a ship while PvPing? NPCing is I wont say impossible, but its kinda hard to lose a ship. If I was a GM I would not replace a ship lost in PvP either no matter what the lag was like.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 15:54:00 - [93] Why should NPCs recieve better support in a PVP game? Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
nahtoh	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:01:00 - [94] Originally by: Drilla We're not talking about a single guy in Jita, we're talking about entire 0.0 alliances of players that have played since day 1 of the game who finally have had enough. If one guy say CCP is wrong - it's word against word. If 300+ people, several different fraps video say CCP is wrong it ignorance thinking CCP is right. You know that CCP claims that 200 out of the 300 people had local router (as in your own house) problems at the excat same time when the 220+ fleet jumped into the 90 man fleet. CCP has completely denied that this could in any way shape or form be a problem serverside and as such it must have been a problem with people ISPs. In CCPs eyes it's more logical that the moment the 220+ man fleet jumps the gate, 50-100 different ISPs around the world had localized problems. If that is not total bs then I dont know what is. It's not like we're talking about people with small computers and/or internet lines. Most people have 2,5Ghz+, 512-1GB ram, Geforce4 or better graphicscards - so you see that blaming this on dozens of ISPs worldwide is simple idiocy. The differnce between 200-300 in a fleet battle and 200-300 in jita are what exactly? the 200-300 in jita did not arrive in a AT THE SAME TIME...so if its say we take the 300 number and thier was 90 in your gang that leaves a blob of 210 trying to get into the system at the sametime or in a very short period of time. Beep sorry problem was caused by players doing something stupid and known to cause problems, you can be in the game with 2 years of experiance and now this kinda stuff happens...our you can pull the ingnorance of sever issues with the kinda comment about its a selling point, pick one. Originally by: Drilla I know about 10-15 people in the entire .5. alliance who only have one account. Most have 3 accounts or more. So using your logic we'll average it out to 3 accounts pr. player and then we come to 75% of the entire community. sure 75% of the paying subscribers are a minority So most of the poeple in empire are alts of allainces? including the pirate allainces that moan about not enuff targets? You can't have it both ways drilla pick a argument and stick with it. Why was a temp truce not applied and and GMs asked to come and monitor the situation? And us poor PvErs don't always get ships replaced to lag related losses personalloy less then 25% of my pations have ended with ship replaced. Still the GMs I have dealt with have been professinal when dealing with the issues i have sent off. "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:04:00 - [95] Originally by: Drilla Why should NPCs recieve better support in a PVP game? Well, admittedly they don't complain anywhere near as much as we do. :) winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:05:00 - [96] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Still, its a shame. Better option would be to get the system to handle these larger fights. Which is im sure, what Oveur is aiming for. That would be the best solution, but while there are certainly improvements that can and are being made, there is always going to be a limit of what is workable. I seriously doubt that that limit can be raised above the number of players an alliance can blob together, at least not without another few years of hardware development. The fact that a lot of server processes scale with the square of the number of people in the grid is the killer here, and overcoming that would need some truly revolutionary design. Oh, and I've had a thought on the PVP vs NPC lag issue. If the cause of lag is truly server lag, then in theory, all players should see the same level of lag. Any discrepancies in observed lag should be down to internet or client hardware issues - though a struggling server could mean these differences have more effect than usual - a fast computer/connection responding faster might get into the queue more often, thus appear to see less lag. Of course, this breaks down in the most extreme cases when the server starts dropping people. But if we assume both sides of the PvP fight are in theory seeing similar levels of lag, the fight would still be "fair". In contrast, the NPC's are not going to experience any lag, as they are a purely server-bound entity. Therefore lag is far more of a disadvantage in this situation, so it's easier to determine that the loss was due to the lag, rather than you would have lost anyway. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:09:00 - [97] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Drilla Why should NPCs recieve better support in a PVP game? Well, admittedly they don't complain anywhere near as much as we do. :) That might be because they get their ships replaced very quickly, without even having to petition You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:23:00 - [98] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Still, its a shame. Better option would be to get the system to handle these larger fights. Which is im sure, what Oveur is aiming for. That would be the best solution, but while there are certainly improvements that can and are being made, there is always going to be a limit of what is workable. I seriously doubt that that limit can be raised above the number of players an alliance can blob together, at least not without another few years of hardware development. The fact that a lot of server processes scale with the square of the number of people in the grid is the killer here, and overcoming that would need some truly revolutionary design. But, from what all the old timers tell me, its been getting worse as time goes on (over the past few years). Now, old timers are going to say that no matter what, cos their old right. But, im quite liable to believe them as it makes sense that the more features you put into a game coupled with the more players playing the game = more lag. I do think tho, that CCP should simply limit gang size and state, no dont do this, its bad for your health. Oh, also, kill bookmarks. :) But thats never going to happen i dont think :(. - Just a simple warrior.
ChironV	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:35:00 - [99] Well with all the discussion going back and forth it is pretty evident that the existing Eve servers can no longer handle PvP fleet battles of over 200 players in a grid. That is not encouraging for the future of the game. Most players would like, at one point or another, in their Eve career to see or particpate in a large battle. If CCP is unable to provide that level of game play they might as well admit it and say they are working on a solution. Otherwise that information will get around and a segment of players will decide that if they cannot take their playing experience to the ultimate level then they will play something else. Leaving the Miners, Macro miners, Complex Runners and Agent Runners to the game. 0.0 will slowly become a wasteland and the galaxy will contract into empire. Wont happen overnight but it will be a slow bleed. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:44:00 - [100] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino But, from what all the old timers tell me, its been getting worse as time goes on (over the past few years). Now, old timers are going to say that no matter what, cos their old right. But, im quite liable to believe them as it makes sense that the more features you put into a game coupled with the more players playing the game = more lag. That is entirely feasible. The increasing number of players won't reduce the maximum capacity of a node to handle the fleet battle, but it will reduce the likelihood of finding a node with the majority of it's capacity free. Unfortunatly, most fleet battle venues are either low-traffic systems which can't justify a dedicated node, or they are hub systems which need the dedicated node just to survive normal load (fleet battles in jita ftl). So, in that context, throwing a pile of new nodes into the cluster could help, but only by making it more likely to get decent node capacity. It wouldn't help lift the hard cap on what a single node could handle. The only way round this, given the limitations on moving systems between nodes, would be to have a few designated "battleground" systems which get their own nodes. That has been suggested before, and there are a number of downsides to it - lack of tactical flexibility being just one. Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Oh, also, kill bookmarks. :) But thats never going to happen i dont think :(. Oveur has stated he wants their current insta function removed, so that is going to happen, one way or the other, eventually. With that function gone, BM's should go back to more sane and manageable numbers. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.14 16:57:00 - [101] Originally by: Matthew The only way round this, given the limitations on moving systems between nodes, would be to have a few designated "battleground" systems which get their own nodes. That has been suggested before, and there are a number of downsides to it - lack of tactical flexibility being just one. Cant do it, it'd kill PvP. One of the things that make EVE great is its open endedness. Planning to kick the crap out your enemy by surprising them and hitting them in various places etc. Having planned battlesystems would be absolutely horrid. Turn it into WoW battlegrounds :) Originally by: Matthew Oveur has stated he wants their current insta function removed, so that is going to happen, one way or the other, eventually. With that function gone, BM's should go back to more sane and manageable numbers. Rebirth sounds worse than insta BM's dont you think? (i know im not going to get you to disagree with anything CCP puts foward but i thought id try ) Seriously tho Matthew, you PvP right? You must have been playing this game for ages. Would you like rebirth? Khaldorns grand plan of lag removal = Remove insta bookmarks. Kill them all. Some people leave who cant handle it. (And i doubt harldy any of them would go at all, its just people using the only threat that they know devs listen too) Were left with an EVE which has less people and vastly decreased BM's = less lag = more fun! Ta-da. - Just a simple warrior.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:00:00 - [102] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Drilla Why should NPCs recieve better support in a PVP game? Well, admittedly they don't complain anywhere near as much as we do. :) I doubt you'd see 'us' complain as much if we got reimbursed at the same rate as empire based players are. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:07:00 - [103] Originally by: Drilla I doubt you'd see 'us' complain as much if we got reimbursed at the same rate as empire based players are. Well, this obviously stems from a complete inability to properly track losses during times of extreme lag. If the server could do that, then the tools the GMs have could confirm the problem and reimburse the loss. I have no idea what technical issues have prevented this from being resolved from CCP's end, but I imagine it's difficult to timestamp the data being sent to and from the client and confirm it securely with what's going on at the server. There's also the issue of whether you can trust the client data that way, and differentiating between lag and client disconnects due to players just quitting in order to exploit that system. It's a tough thing, and to be honest I'd rather have them take the stance of not reimbursing rather than the opposite. Well actually it's my preference that the game itself didn't HAVE these kinds of problems to begin with, but I think they're taking steps in the right direction in that regard. Slowly, but surely. winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:13:00 - [104] I agree with you WB but what really upset me was that GMs claimed that there were no lag (not just that they couldnt verify it in logs but that there were simply no lag) even though there's several screenshots, fraps and 300 eyewitnesses. It's the disrespect from the GMs that the issue here. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:15:00 - [105] Originally by: Drilla I agree with you WB but what really upset me was that GMs claimed that there were no lag (not just that they couldnt verify it in logs but that there were simply no lag) even though there's several screenshots, fraps and 300 eyewitnesses. It's the disrespect from the GMs that the issue here. Well, I can do nothing but agree with you there. :) If the guy sitting two rooms over from the servers claims there's no lag, but 300 users can show there was, I'm inclined to hedge my bets with the users. :) winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Flyer11	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:21:00 - [106] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Drilla I agree with you WB but what really upset me was that GMs claimed that there were no lag (not just that they couldnt verify it in logs but that there were simply no lag) even though there's several screenshots, fraps and 300 eyewitnesses. It's the disrespect from the GMs that the issue here. Well, I can do nothing but agree with you there. :) If the guy sitting two rooms over from the servers claims there's no lag, but 300 users can show there was, I'm inclined to hedge my bets with the users. :) that i have to agree with also, just becuase the logs state there is no problem does not mean that there isnt a problem or it hasnt being logged yet etc.. i agree fully with what you both are saying Flyer CEO And Founder of H20 Designz
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:25:00 - [107] Originally by: Flyer11 that i have to agree with also, just becuase the logs state there is no problem does not mean that there isnt a problem or it hasnt being logged yet etc.. i agree fully with what you both are saying Historically, the only thing a GM could rely on ARE the logs, because lets face it, there's nothing to stop someone from claiming client lag caused the death of their battleship and petitioning for reimbursement. They could be correct, but they could also just be unskilled and not wanting to work for a new ship. With this issue, what do they do? Reimburse the losses of everyone involved? Some of those could be legitimate losses due to non-lagged combat. And where do you draw the line, saying x amount of people have to petition from a particular fight in order for their concerns to be addressed? It's a complicated issue. :( winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Flyer11	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:41:00 - [108] don't get me wrong WB i appriciate its a complicated issue which they must impliment something to be 100% sure.. my issue was not to do with ship loss but i posted ealier about my skill trianing being complete[supplied with screenshot] then it went back to lvl 4 and the gm's said it wasnt true and i had not lost anything in their logs.. tho i swear 99.9% im sure that skill was complete[from the screenshot] below screenshot and then the char sheet said the next day when i logged on Gunnery / Rank 1 / SP: 45255 of 256000 ÀCurrently training to: level 5 ÀTime left: 7 days, 9 hours, 54 minutes, 26 seconds ÀSP done: 29707 of 210745 so im waiting for it to finish "again".. i understand the gm's only have the logs to go on.. ccp must put something in place so they can cross refrence to compare Fly CEO And Founder of H20 Designz
ChironV	Posted - 2005.11.14 17:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Drilla I agree with you WB but what really upset me was that GMs claimed that there were no lag (not just that they couldnt verify it in logs but that there were simply no lag) even though there's several screenshots, fraps and 300 eyewitnesses. It's the disrespect from the GMs that the issue here. Honestly with the levels of access they have I dont think they COULD see lag. Like with many other games they SHOULD have the ability to have an invisible mode and "jump" to the system in question. In all probability they do not access the same proxies as players, so they might only be looking at the system and judging based on if they encounter lag. Meanwhile player ships are hitting their proxy layer lag like flies hitting a bug zapper. I do agree with you on the percieved attitude. We are the customer there fore we are guilty and have to prove our innocence. ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
Winterblink	Posted - 2005.11.14 18:12:00 - [110] This is more a question for a developer, but.. Does the game currently have any kind of client/server heartbeat? If not, why not? Wouldn't it be a decent way of ascertaining performance of your overall player base while at the same time identifying problem areas with regards to network lag? It could also be used to at least HELP with identifying losses due to lag. It's not perfect, and again is open to abuse, but if the packets are managed properly and not obtrusive in their frequency it might be helpful. Something's better than nothing. winterblink warp drive active.http://winterblink.com/wda nature vraie.http://winterblink.com/env
Dao 2	Posted - 2005.11.14 20:04:00 - [111] heh i think the 'care' part should be removed ;ppppp
Stuu	Posted - 2005.11.14 20:09:00 - [112] Edited by: Stuu on 14/11/2005 20:09:21 Guys we have seen it time and time again. 2 fights todate I have been in and suffered from bad lag and each time got thanks but no lag were as the 80% of the fleet suffered. But hey numbers will drop and then maybe they will see that there is a problem outside empire.....
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.15 10:39:00 - [113] Unfortunaly this thread will die a quiet death to the CCP stonewall tactic when customers are unhappy. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
M0535	Posted - 2005.11.15 11:46:00 - [114] My favourite reply from a petition was along the lines of.... This happened a while ago, we have done nothing. So if this has sorted your problem....
Dillon Arklight	Posted - 2005.11.15 11:51:00 - [115] Lag is getting worse and not just for fleet battles. A couple of weeks or so ago the commander of about 50 man .5. fleet had to seperate jumps into an empty system(Minmatar ships first, then wait 10 seconds, then Amarr ships etc) just so that people wouldnt lag out on jump in and crash/warp off randomly. We were on our way up north looking for a fight, half way there we turned back only imaging what the lag would have been like jumping in on the enemy at the same time. I dont care what CCP say but medium to large fleet battles are not a current feature of EVE.
The Ratfink	Posted - 2005.11.15 11:53:00 - [116] I personally liked the one where they made me run around and get them proof that a particular event that happened was a bug posted by DEV's they repeatedly made me go digging for info and paste them links to ccp's website. When i had succesfully proved it was a bug and already been exposed as a bug i was given a standard no logs reply thanks for the runaround gm's bet you guys were laughin your ass off about that one.
Matthew	Posted - 2005.11.15 11:58:00 - [117] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Cant do it, it'd kill PvP. One of the things that make EVE great is its open endedness. Planning to kick the crap out your enemy by surprising them and hitting them in various places etc. Having planned battlesystems would be absolutely horrid. Turn it into WoW battlegrounds :) That was kinda my point, that the only feasible server load-balancing workaround was fundamentally flawed as a gameplay option Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Rebirth sounds worse than insta BM's dont you think? (i know im not going to get you to disagree with anything CCP puts foward but i thought id try ) Actually, I think that rebirth is by far the most dangerous change proposed in a long time. Done wrong, it could cause serious problems. Done right, it could be a great system. We haven't yet been given enough details on how it will work to make any sort of decision on that yet though, so I'm reserving judgement until we do. I suspect that those hoping for it to just be cheap and easy clone-jumping are going to be disappointed though. Also bear in mind that rebirth is not purely an insta-replacement feature. It's supposed to be a powerful new tactical tool, and one of the main strengths of having a carrier/titan in the field to recieve people. In that way, it makes the carrier/titan a true focus of the battle, and a target of true tactical importance, rather than just another uber-ship with bigger guns. Encouraging combat away from gatecamps (and lets face it, the majority of fleet battles end up being one side jumping into the other at a gate) by providing other focuses sounds good to me. Originally by: Winterblink With this issue, what do they do? Reimburse the losses of everyone involved? Some of those could be legitimate losses due to non-lagged combat. And where do you draw the line, saying x amount of people have to petition from a particular fight in order for their concerns to be addressed? And of course, if such a rule was in place, it wouldn't be hard for many groups in Eve to group up and collectively petition themselves up some ships. After all, if you can co-ordinate that many people in a fleet battle, co-ordinating a mass-petition would be easy. It's a sad fact of life that it's not very hard to get a large group of people to collectively lie, if that lie is in their interests. You can do anything. But you can't do everything.
Kantar	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:00:00 - [118] Signed. Keep this tread alive and on top. I personally lost 2 ships in Jita do to lag black screen with a good computer and 1 gig RAM, but you can guess the response was my fault. I think now is not about the ship reimbursment anyone is about dont be treat like anj idiot and relise most of the ppl playing eve are over 18 and responsable adults. So having a message that tell you that is all good and well on planet CCP is an insult to people intelligence.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:10:00 - [119] DOH CCP are saying u know about lag problems in high amount of player battles ie 300+ in the one system u engage in it our standard response will be there was no lag at our end its the bandwidth to all players and the updating speeds that are a problem this does not constitute a server side lag issue - if u engage in this type of alliance battle u are responsible for youre ship losses (if they reimbursed every lagged fleet battle the market would just fall apart under inflation) That is why nothing is reimbursed in this case - insurance should cover basic losses and alliances have to reequip themselves and there fore making use of mining and production within the game. If it was a small battle it might be different but such a large scale reimbrusement would blow apart 2 days of economic development in eve hence u are all ignored. For future reference if u engage in large fleet battles u will not recieve compensation due to lag. Simple answer without all the BS being written from both sides about proxy servers etc - this post cuts through the hype and ignorance to get to the real truth thanku
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:27:00 - [120] Originally by: Khaldorn Murino [Khaldorns grand plan of lag removal = Remove insta bookmarks. Kill them all. Some people leave who cant handle it. (And i doubt harldy any of them would go at all, its just people using the only threat that they know devs listen too) Were left with an EVE which has less people and vastly decreased BM's = less lag = more fun! Ta-da. I agree with the terrorist on this 100%. We'd see warfleets adopt travel set-ups to get from A to B. This would lead to more thought going into fleet movements as the commander would have to decide where his ships are going to dock to change setups etc. Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
M0535	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:31:00 - [121] I would be interested to find out what CCP's definition of a fleet battle is, as it is advertised as a game feature - not a 'in testing' or 'coming soon' feature, but an actual feature. Maybe we are allowed a maximum of 20 ships, not each, just total ???? If CCP believe that the servers can cope, but players cannot, maybe they should make an official statement about it. As for the H-PA thing, there were no winners, just lucky people who managed to find the ability to warp out. Both sides lost IMO
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:43:00 - [122] Edited by: sonofollo on 15/11/2005 12:44:29 well at the moment we all know if we engage in a large scale battle that the devs wont refund lost ships due to massive lag. So if alliances want to use the my fleet is bigger than youre fleet up front approach they had better use cheaper ships or be prepared to loose a bit (this is also driving a lot of alliance shake ups and mass defections - corp movement at present) and the ship builders etc are also making a profit so there are winners and just ignorant PVP alliances who will soon adpat smaller gangs guriella tactics and hit their enemies when not many are around for added strengths at least until the RMR is in and the blade servers are running and even dual processors 64 bit or several CPus being able to support a single node U will find CCP have made a statement abielt a silent one by not refunding any ships lost in these large battles by issuing a generic standard rejection from all those petitions - in not denying it they are saying do it at youre own risk until things are improved
TitusCrow	Posted - 2005.11.15 12:58:00 - [123] if you ppl feel strongly about this stage a demonstration in a system in empire get as many players there as possible and maybe ccp will take notice of how many ppl are sick of the so called 'customer care' but tbh i don't think they would care
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:03:00 - [124] what a repeat of the 4s jita thing - mmm lets see everyone involved being reset to -5 standing - oh worse still more lag nerfing cause the servers crash so much and annoy all the other players. Nah cant see that as an idea just get used to the fact that if u are involved in a large scale massive fleet battle the system cant handle u wont be getting a refund as its more client side lag than server side lag and CCP dont refund for that. Let them work on the game to reduce the lag - accept the insta and drone changes - constructive ideas ive put forward could be used in balancing. And then u can have youe large fleet battles (also once the blade servers go in) CCP still appear to be doing a good job but the china setup is taking manhous away but more $$$$ gotta = longer survivability down the track for TQ
Flyer11	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:18:00 - [125] Originally by: TitusCrow if you ppl feel strongly about this stage a demonstration in a system in empire get as many players there as possible and maybe ccp will take notice of how many ppl are sick of the so called 'customer care' but tbh i don't think they would care i doubt staging a protest to get their attention like 4s did in jita with loads of shuttles and crashing the server would only get us more greif from other players which is far from the point.. the issue isnt with other players its with ccp.. and by crashing the server will just get us banned or something so i dont think it's much of a option apart from keep this thread alive, even tho the guys will never read it as were a small minority and also jita's high sec.. some of us cant get into high sec with a standing of -6.3 FLy CEO And Founder of H20 Designz
duchess eff	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:21:00 - [126] Originally by: Drilla If one guy say CCP is wrong - it's word against word. If 300+ people, several different fraps video say CCP is wrong it ignorance thinking CCP is right. Take this discussion as another example. No ccp statement except snips, they DO read this post, but they don't care $0.02 for you - get used to it
Baconjoe	Posted - 2005.11.15 13:29:00 - [127] Your are so correct in all your comments drilla. Except one. CCp has never went intyo this game at any point with any exceptable level of customer service. In my experience I have been let down by EVERY petition i have ever submitted to CCP. I even asked to cancel my account but because i pay for an entire year in advance they would not give me my money back! And I have 3 accounts. We dont need ccp to reply either. There stance has not changed it is "like it or lump it" We are cursed men
Heavenly Explorer	Posted - 2005.11.15 14:14:00 - [128] Edited by: Heavenly Explorer on 15/11/2005 14:14:34 I filed a petition two days ago, and yesterday I recieved a auto-response email back: "Hi Due to the extreme load we are experiencing at Customer Support, we have not been able to answer your request. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause you and we want to thank you for your patience." ... And now just 5 minutes ago, I get a second one of these emails! (that message is written twice in the email) That just goes to show how backlogged they are atm. Unlucky to be a GM.
Bazman	Posted - 2005.11.15 14:18:00 - [129] I used to get reimbursements for ships lost in PVP up until about 3 months ago. A notable petition that was successful was when a 20 man 5 group jumped into a similar sized Imperium group near J-LO about 4 months ago. I died before loading as my ship broke cloak to do the emergency warp due to lag and i got blootered by the enemy fleet. Didn't need to provide any evidence or anything, got my ship back no problem. However more recently with the lag caused by eve-mail generation on ship death I have lost several pods simply because the client becomes unresponsive for anywhere between 5-15 seconds. Its a well known bug and its since this bug became apparent that any reimbursement petitions have been denied. I guess its simply because everyones overloading with petitions about it. CCP owe me a low grade slave set because of this, I want it back! :P
Moominer	Posted - 2005.11.15 14:36:00 - [130] Edited by: Moominer on 15/11/2005 14:37:55 It is clear that reimbursements when looking at NPCing and PvPing losses are skewed - why is this? Possibly the NPC logs give a more accurate picture, or is less open to fraudulent reimbursement claims. At the end of the day the fact that there are reimbursements for losses occurred during "server lag" is the whole problem in itself. Don't get me wrong, it's great and all when you are on the receiving end of such a loss, but it's open to such problems (some highlighted here) but the most likely outcome is complaining so much the whole reimbursement policy is canned, much like any other MMOG: All other MMOGs I have played - any kind of customer service request to reimburse items was met with laughable ignorance, and the only time I have seen other MMOGs actually reimburse is when there is a massive server issue (corruption for example) or in the event of security issues on an individuals account (someone maliciously deletes your character/assets etc.) The question we should be asking ourselves is not whether or not there should be better access to reimbursements, but whether reimbursements should remain at all in this current (and somewhat unfair) "grey" state. if server load is actually improved upon (which CCP state they are working at) the only logical course of action is to scrap reimbursements for anything but serious server bugs/corruption/security issues etc. Eve Fitting Manager
Yzman Shhan	Posted - 2005.11.15 15:54:00 - [131] Originally by: Discorporation Will say it again, jumping in with 200 ships on 80 ships is stupid Well the situation wasn't much better yesterday when .5. jumped in on our 14 ship group with about 20 (dunno really how many, that's the numbers i heard mentioned) and immediately we started seeing them emergency warping out due to CTD's.. I saw at least 4 of them crash and disappear from local. If about 35 ships cause problems, of course 200 to 100 will as would have 20 jumping in on their 100 or so ships..
KIATolon	Posted - 2005.11.15 15:59:00 - [132] If a 20 v 20 is impossible then that's completely unacceptable imo. I can understand 200 v 200's struggling till the new servers are up and kali is coded, but a 20 v 20. That's just wrong :(
Jamius	Posted - 2005.11.15 16:00:00 - [133] Signed. I have already cancelled both my accounts on the principle that I am a customer and will not put up being treated as I have been. I can't obviously talk about the details of my failed petition that made me quit but these hard black and white re-imbursement rules need are not good enough. An element of commen sense needs to be used in making decisions. I supplied game logs and chat logs (with the people that killed my bugged ship saying THEY would back up my petition) and got one generic statement after another pointing me to the EULA or stating other rules - disgusting and the reason I am quitting a game I dearly love. What is lost in re-imbursing people easier - the odd person getting a ship back that they deserved to lose? - oh my god the travesty (sarcastic in case your wondering) - that is much less of a big deal than hundreds of people not getting back stuff they lost due to problems with Eve.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.15 16:31:00 - [134] As I stated earlier it's not about reimbursements I've lost but the GM/CCP stance to this. I want to be treated with just a little bit of respect by the GMs - but apparently that's too much to ask. I was in that fight yesterday against F-E and we had indeed people CTD because our 18 jumped into their ~ 10-15 ships and a bubble. That's just wrong - module lag was 'normal' with a 3-4 seconds response timer. What I want out of this thread is that Keiron or a CCP dev tells us they are aware of the problem and that reimbursement petitions wont be a "cut'n'paste" job from now on. I'm not aiming for a reimbursement revolution but being asked to be treated decently isn't an unfair question. CCP should man up and admit that the game simply cant cope with bigger battles and that anything above X vs. X should be avoided atm. - I've fought 50v50 before with minimal lag - granted back then we were aiming for 10000 people online but still. An official response from CCP acknowlegding the problem but that they will not change the reimbursement ratio, but will instruct the GMs to write a personal reply is sufficient for me. It's not the players that advertises this game with Dynamic Tactical Combat with combat situations ranging from small skirmishes to 100 player fleet battles. now is it? Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
aggro	Posted - 2005.11.15 17:01:00 - [135] Edited by: aggro on 15/11/2005 17:05:28 the way i see it is people would like the gms and ccp to admit that there is a problem with lag,bugs etc. instead we have the situation where they bury there heads in the sand and quote our logs dont show a problem you are all liars. people dont expect to have their ships reimburse 100% of the time in pvp, but at least some of the time where it is evident that the ship loss was due to log and bugs. with the lack of response from ccp and gms they are driving away many loyal players of 2+yrs with ther attitude. i for one have cancelled my 2 accounts and am waiting for another mmorp to come out in december which i know many from my corp and alliance will be giving it a try. Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO
Zagum Darkfin	Posted - 2005.11.15 17:51:00 - [136] Standard Responses from GMs from a Known Event is showing the lack of customer service we now demand from our service providers. CCP, this is not just a design a half-arse game, ship it and make tons of money kind of market now. The days of Verant/Sony/EQ, EA/Ultima Online, and Ubisoft/Shadowbane feeding us gamers a load of crap and expecting us to ask for more ARE OVER. YOU ARE IN THE SERVICE BUSINESS AND YOUR SERVICE RIGHT NOW IS LACKING. Overall CCP has been top notch, but this kind of stuff is not necessary as us gamers know you can do better. If CCP is not concerned about keeping loyal paying customers, then this current set of action is obvious.
Ashteron'n'KA	Posted - 2005.11.15 18:35:00 - [137] ..Customer Service - is that what thier calling it?! - how bout "autoresponder-email-server-maintainance-group/stress-testing-analysts"... thats sounds more appropriate.. look its real simple dude - take em off salary and pay them for the problems they actually solve. (put em on commission i.e.: they get a comission based opn the customer satisfaction score in the questionare - cut the base salary in half - then youll see some motivated CS agents believe me. The ones that are actually helpful will start to be more obvious. The ones that spew boilerplate awnsers will just wither away.) PLUS OVERHEAD WILL GO DOWN! REVENUES WILL GO UP =) how do you like them apples!? When dinner or rent is at stake people seem to somehow perform at a higher level. I dont know why... It just turns out that way.
Galk	Posted - 2005.11.15 19:08:00 - [138] Iv'e told you this before, yes ccp are a service provider, but to them you are 'gamer' not a customer... You are Hi galk, Not dear Mr... As for the status of getting them to give you anything other than generic responce, don't hold your breath, nearly every customer service falls back on that one when the system is at fault. And more sadly, because this industry has 'zero' regulation, there is nothing and nobody to backup the customers, and to ensure ccp provide their paying customers with a fair and honest service, aside good faith. This is something which in my opinion is mindless given that it's a multi million dollar industry now, they can pretty much do as they like... you have to take it as it comes. Ofcourse you can up sticks and leave if you feel that strongly about it, but given the nature of mmorpgs and what they mean to people on a personal level, the efforts you put in, many people would shy away from doing that (which ccp or any mmorpg running company are well aware of), or atleast have second thoughts and change their minds before actualy hitting the cancel button. Iv'e semi documented my encounters with ccp's customer services before so i won't go into detail, but i was extremly unhappy with what actualy transpired in my dealings with them. To have admisions from them of certain events in one mail, then in the next have a complete denial of them saying that, even though i was quoting them in my replys was just plain upsettting... they could simply say as they wished, and were doing. ----------- When they asked me if i knew you, id smile and say you were a friend of mine.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.15 20:25:00 - [139] Ashteron'n'KA - I like your idea. See CCP, it's not all flames, stop the stonewalling! Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.11.15 20:36:00 - [140] The only reason they don't give an inch is because then every carebear who lost a ship to a pirate would go for a mile. My Customer Service experience was great. A certain GM with a name very similar in spelling to a famed Final Fantasy VII responded quickly to my stuck petition, moving my ship and equipment to a system where I did not have the problem. This was within about 30 minutes of the petition, which I think was very reasonable. The more CCP uses modules to resolve balance issues instead of systemwide rules, the more control CCP will have over how EVE works. CCP, please keep this in mind before swinging the nerfbat.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.15 20:55:00 - [141] Originally by: Corvus Dove A certain GM with a name very similar in spelling to a famed Final Fantasy VII responded quickly to my stuck petition, moving my ship and equipment to a system where I did not have the problem. Try asking for reimbursement and come back here. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Corvus Dove	Posted - 2005.11.15 21:07:00 - [142] Originally by: Drilla Originally by: Corvus Dove A certain GM with a name very similar in spelling to a famed Final Fantasy VII responded quickly to my stuck petition, moving my ship and equipment to a system where I did not have the problem. Try asking for reimbursement and come back here. Don't ask. That's how it gets reimbursed. Once got destroyed, lost a bunch of skillbooks but they weren't in the can and they weren't on the destroyed list. I didn't petition asking/demanding my 2 mil in books back, I petitioned asking if they could take a peek and see where my books went. I get the feeling a lot of problems come from how people are asking, not what people are asking. People tend to treat CCP pretty crappy. I work in the low-to-mid-risk car collections and customer service industry for a major financial corporation, and a customer asking nicely for help gets late charges waived, credit fixed, the works. SOmeone's an ass but wants the same thing, they get nothing. Someone's an aggressive ass, they better start walking. The sooner the customer realizes they aren't always right, and when they are they shouldn't act like it, the more they'll get from customer service departments. The more CCP uses modules to resolve balance issues instead of systemwide rules, the more control CCP will have over how EVE works. CCP, please keep this in mind before swinging the nerfbat.
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.15 21:35:00 - [143] So you are saying that the "cut'n'paste" answers to all reimbursements are because how people ask? That doesn't fit with my experience at all. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.11.15 21:45:00 - [144] Originally by: Drilla So you are saying that the "cut'n'paste" answers to all reimbursements are because how people ask? That doesn't fit with my experience at all. They have documented processes they follow. At the moment, those are basically checking the server logs to see if it was CCP's fault you lost your ship. This happens more in NPCing-heavy areas due to missions taking up a lot of CPU. That doesn't mean that losses related to pvp are inherently treated differently. You're taking a noticed corellation and you're jumping to wild conclusions based on it. There is no truth to it unless a dev or GM specifically confirms it. And it is true that the GMs are told to throw a case out if the person petitions rudely or in a harassing manner. They aren't paid to deal with that kind of crap and don't have to. I have noticed that a lot of the GMs don't know what they're doing, though. Every time I've died to server-lag and petitioned, I've had to remind the GMs to go look up the node CPU usage logs and check if it was running at 100% at the time of death and remind them that this is immediate grounds for reimbursement. I had to go as far as getting them the killmail so they would have no excuse not to know that time and what to restore. The GMs need retraining and they do need their work checked.
GFLTorque	Posted - 2005.11.15 22:32:00 - [145] Originally by: Nyphur I've had to remind the GMs to go look up the node CPU usage logs and check if it was running at 100% at the time of death and remind them that this is immediate grounds for reimbursement. I've checked the "user manual" and can't seem to find the part that tells me how to do the GM's job. Mind uploading yours?
Dao 2	Posted - 2005.11.15 23:31:00 - [146] my favorite is the one saying login traps are legal now and the other saying its an exploit
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.16 00:05:00 - [147] Hmmmmm.... Teh wabble gwoes westless!
Vlodec	Posted - 2005.11.16 00:50:00 - [148] For myself I'm just astonished that some snip happy GM hasn't stopped this thread. And I wonder why ? I'll hazard a guess. One day a year, as a kind of joke, they let the riff raff say whatever they like. A kind of Saturnalia. Make the most of it guys. You'll be patronised, deleted and banned almost to the limits of your endurance again any time soon. Am I allowed to say that ?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.11.16 01:40:00 - [149] Go play Star Wars Galaxies for a week then come talk to me about CCP's customer care. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Mis Raven	Posted - 2005.11.16 02:17:00 - [150] Quite right! This is a goddamm joke! I made my complaints to the mods and this is how they handled it... Disgusting! Well gues what I QUIT!
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2005.11.16 03:43:00 - [151] Originally by: Mis Raven Quite right! This is a goddamm joke! I made my complaints to the mods and this is how they handled it... Disgusting! Well gues what I QUIT! You blame EVE for your ** and warez habbit? Or opening email with Outlook? Sorry but no sympathy. Might want to take it to bestbuy so they can fix it <giggle> Originally by:** "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Permanewbie	Posted - 2005.11.16 03:54:00 - [152] Originally by: Discorporation Will say it again, jumping in with 200 ships on 80 ships is stupid Damn strait. Also note that around a fourth of these posts are coming from a single corp. Take a moment and look at all of the other MMO's out there. Sony Online Entertainment basically just killed itself. You can bet that a lot of their customers will never play another SOE game ever again. Eve is the only game that gets better with age. They never delete accounts ( cough, FFXI, 3 months your gone cough . ) and when a bug comes out you KNOW it will get fixed sooner or later. In Anarcy online there was a bug in early beta where if you had more than 10 or so items in your apartment they would disappear. The game is on it's deathbed, being free to play and the bug is STILL there. FFS. Alot of bugs never got fixed with Planetside and SWG actually got worse with time. Be thankful that your actually getting a reply, since in my experience I've had almost no luck in other games. I dont mind canned replies. They DID give me a response... and if it's a petition for a common problem then wouldnt be giving a quick response be important to helping as many people as possible? What do you want? 2000 word reply for every petition? Just how far do you think that your monthly fee goes? Remember that expansions for this game come at no additional cost above and beyond the monthly fee. Expansions in other MMO's have turned out to fall flat or actually make the game WORSE. Take a moment and think about it kay?
Kyle Caldrel	Posted - 2005.11.16 04:08:00 - [153] We the Eve players have had and expect better Customer service. I have had great service from CCP about a year ago, but noticed its decline in the past oh, 6 months or so.
Vlodec	Posted - 2005.11.16 04:08:00 - [154] Oh come now...just because it's worse elsewhere doesn't make it OK here. Basic ethics. Am I allowed to say that ?
Permanewbie	Posted - 2005.11.16 04:28:00 - [155] Originally by: Mis Raven Quite right! This is a goddamm joke! I made my complaints to the mods and this is how they handled it... Disgusting! Well gues what I QUIT! That wasnt CCP's fault, but rather your system config. Dont pass off the blame.
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.16 04:40:00 - [156] Edited by: Megadon on 16/11/2005 04:43:36 Originally by: Mis Raven Quite right! This is a goddamm joke! I made my complaints to the mods and this is how they handled it... Disgusting! Well gues what I QUIT! Can I have your stuff? Edit: This is one of the first games I have EVER played that even has had anything resembling customer service.
Vlodec	Posted - 2005.11.16 04:45:00 - [157] Originally by: Megadon Originally by: Mis Raven Quite right! This is a goddamm joke! I made my complaints to the mods and this is how they handled it... Disgusting! Well gues what I QUIT! Can I have your stuff? I recall when that joke was first made - to my knowledge at any rate. It was quite funny then. Am I allowed to say that ?
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.16 05:06:00 - [158] Originally by: Vlodec Originally by: Megadon Originally by: Mis Raven Quite right! This is a goddamm joke! I made my complaints to the mods and this is how they handled it... Disgusting! Well gues what I QUIT! Can I have your stuff? I recall when that joke was first made - to my knowledge at any rate. It was quite funny then. The joke's on you. I was serious.
Vlodec	Posted - 2005.11.16 05:10:00 - [159] Edited by: Vlodec on 16/11/2005 05:11:34 Am I allowed to say that ?
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.16 05:12:00 - [160]
Vlodec	Posted - 2005.11.16 05:43:00 - [161] Am I allowed to say that ?
Guvante	Posted - 2005.11.16 07:23:00 - [162] Reply to this entire thread, sorry if someone has already said this, but it is late and there were 4 pages of threads to go... What you don't realize is that you all were having client side lag This game has issues loading up 200+ ship models all at the same time, but it is client side lag, and not a bug, so the GMs can't do anything about it due to the rules they are governed by While I do not think that no reimbursments is the correct path, I can definatly see why "sorry, can't help" is the general responce, since as the rules stand, client side lag is not a reason to reimburse, even if it is caused by game mechanics
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.16 07:32:00 - [163] Originally by: Vlodec If I get anything, I'll split it with you!
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.16 08:56:00 - [164] Megadon has won this thread with the "Life of Brian" joke. Game Over. "He has a wife y'know?" ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.16 11:02:00 - [165] Originally by: Guvante Reply to this entire thread, sorry if someone has already said this, but it is late and there were 4 pages of threads to go... What you don't realize is that you all were having client side lag This game has issues loading up 200+ ship models all at the same time, but it is client side lag, and not a bug, so the GMs can't do anything about it due to the rules they are governed by While I do not think that no reimbursments is the correct path, I can definatly see why "sorry, can't help" is the general responce, since as the rules stand, client side lag is not a reason to reimburse, even if it is caused by game mechanics Client Side lag? You might be right but then it's a problem inside the client and the way it communicates with the proxy/server, when you can go from 25fps til black screen in 15 minutes because of gate activity. But getting back to what this thread is about, GMs and they way they respond and disrespects the customers. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!
Drilla	Posted - 2005.11.17 02:50:00 - [166] Originally by: Kyle Caldrel We the Eve players have had and expect better Customer service. I have had great service from CCP about a year ago, but noticed its decline in the past oh, 6 months or so. That's the entire problem - a decline in service. If it had always been like this then we wouldn't complain. Seek not to bar my way, for I shall win through - no matter the cost!

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