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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.14 12:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
With the recent development and expansions of EVE I believe its time to take the step to create a better capital market.
Creation of a "risk free" rate.
In order to value all other financial products in Eve, a risk free rate is essential.
The major and minor factions all pay ISK to players via missions & bounty prizes and they receive ISK via transaction taxes, skill books etc. However they are running a deficit which is covered by "printing" ISK and hence increasing the money supply.
Instead of printing ISK, CCP can create a risk free rate by selling bonds through EVE market (at NPC bank stations) to cover the defecit.
I suggest 3 types of bonds: 1 week, 1mth and 3mth bonds, which are sold every Sunday.
All bonds will have a notional of 10mio ISK and the rate determined by selling price. Players can enter market orders at fx 99.00 which means that the player pay 9.9mio for the bond and receive 10mio at maturity. CCP start filling highest bids first and fill them until the deficit have been covered. If rates get to high or market orders cannot cover the deficit , CCP central bank will buy the outstanding bonds by printing.
To make the system more realistic and incorporated with EVE universe the current currency ISK which is completely unrealistic need to be replaced. ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2974285#post2974285 )
Instead of 1 currency (ISK) , 4 new currencies wud need to be created , each printed and regulated by the major factions: Caldari yen -Ñ , Gallente Mark , Minmatar pund -ú and Amarr franc Géú.
We need these changes to create a free banking system and later a efficient stock & bond market. I will create another thread on these topics later. |
RAW23
150
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote:With the recent development and expansions of EVE I believe its time to take the step to create a better capital market. Creation of a "risk free" rate. In order to value all other financial products in Eve, a risk free rate is essential. The major and minor factions all pay ISK to players via missions & bounty prizes and they receive ISK via transaction taxes, skill books etc. However they are running a deficit which is covered by "printing" ISK and hence increasing the money supply. Instead of printing ISK, CCP can create a risk free rate by selling bonds through EVE market (at NPC bank stations) to cover the defecit. I suggest 3 types of bonds: 1 week, 1mth and 3mth bonds, which are sold every Sunday. All bonds will have a notional of 10mio ISK and the rate determined by selling price. Players can enter market orders at fx 99.00 which means that the player pay 9.9mio for the bond and receive 10mio at maturity. CCP start filling highest bids first and fill them until the deficit have been covered. If rates get to high or market orders cannot cover the deficit , CCP central bank will buy the outstanding bonds by printing. To make the system more realistic and incorporated with EVE universe the current currency ISK which is completely unrealistic need to be replaced. ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2974285#post2974285 ) Instead of 1 currency (ISK) , 4 new currencies wud need to be created , each printed and regulated by the major factions: Caldari yen -Ñ , Gallente Mark , Minmatar pund -ú and Amarr franc Géú. We need these changes to create a free banking system and later a efficient stock & bond market. I will create another thread on these topics later.
a) This would create an extra isk faucet.
b) Lots of other issues but I'll sum up by saying: What the hell are you thinking?!
The idea of introducing a risk and effort free way of making money that will also serve as an isk faucet (and which also depends on the introduction of four new currencies) must be one of the most spectacularly bad ideas I have seen floated on this forum. Ever.
Edit - Apologies for the overly harsh initial reaction. I think the reason your suggestion struck me as staggeringly bad is because you didnGÇÖt actually outline any possible positive effect of your suggested changes. I guess there might be some potential payoff but the idea of risk free bonds by itself is appalling. If there is some payoff it will need to be pretty significant in order to counteract this. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
RAW23 you have no substance behind what you are saying. The only thing you can say, is that its a bad idea. If you have no arguements please remove your post and refrain from participate in the future.
One topic you raise (without any substance) is that you are affraid that players receive a return on an investment. I dont see your point in that, its a principle derrived from RL economics and a compensation for not having access to your money in a period of time. Yes people get a return but as the money is not availeble for them inflation will go lower. Also people generally invest their money into ships and equipment which might give them a return. This will just be an alternative.
Finally, It will put pressure on the State (CCP) to get a balanced fiscal policy in EVE and not running large defecits forever.
EDIT: The benefits of this change will be the first baby step toward creating a free banking system and capital markets in EVE. |
RAW23
150
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote:RAW23 you have no substance behind what you are saying. The only thing you can say, is that its a bad idea. If you have no arguements please remove your post and refrain from participate in the future.
One topic you raise (without any substance) is that you are affraid that players receive a return on an investment. I dont see your point in that, its a principle derrived from RL economics and a compensation for not having access to your money in a period of time. Yes people get a return but as the money is not availeble for them inflation will go lower. Also people generally invest their money into ships and equipment which might give them a return. This will just be an alternative.
Finally, It will put pressure on the State (CCP) to get a balanced fiscal policy in EVE and not running large defecits forever.
You haven't suggested any substantial end result at all other than some nebulous 'free banking system' and 'an efficient stock and bond market' with no indication of what you actually mean by these. So, the goal of your proposal is not at all apparent; all we have are a bunch of radical changes with no real motivation for them. The fundamental change GÇô risk free bonds GÇô is one that I find completely abhorrent and not at all in keeping with the spirit of the game. The giveaway is in the phrase GÇÿrisk freeGÇÖ, a phrase that is not at all at home in a game in which the central ethos is that actions have consequences and that nothing is perfectly safe. What you are proposing is a completely safe CCP backed form of investment. But not only does CCP secure the investment, they will also pay the interest on it, introducing new sources of isk to an economy that is already overflowing with it. So, removal of risk and the introduction of an isk faucet with no indication of why this might be useful. The idea of introducing currencies has certain merits and has been discussed a great deal on this forum but it does not depend on your central idea and so can be left aside.
So, I say again, these are awful ideas unless you can show that they will lead to some spectacular addition to the game that could not otherwise be achieved and this is something you have not done.
Quote: If you have no arguements please remove your post and refrain from participate in the future.
I think you can probably guess my answer to this request. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
RAW23
150
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote:
One topic you raise (without any substance) is that you are affraid that players receive a return on an investment. I dont see your point in that, its a principle derrived from RL economics and a compensation for not having access to your money in a period of time.
The objection is that they get a risk-free return, not just some return.
Quote: Yes people get a return but as the money is not availeble for them inflation will go lower.
This shows that you have little idea about the quantity of idle isk in eve. Providing new investment opportunities for isk that would, in most cases, be sitting idle anyway, will not decrease inflation.
Quote: Also people generally invest their money into ships and equipment which might give them a return. This will just be an alternative.
Investing in ships and equipment has risks. The value of your investment may go up or down and it takes skill to gauge the likely trajectories of the market. What you are suggesting is not comparable at all, since there will be no risk of loss and no skill involved.
Quote: Finally, It will put pressure on the State (CCP) to get a balanced fiscal policy in EVE and not running large defecits forever.
No. What you are suggesting is based on a baffling conflation of CCP with the fictional states in eve. The only thing your suggestion will do is introduce another way for players to receive isk from CCP. It will not, in any way shape or form balance anyone's budget because ... and this is amazing stuff ... the NPCs will not be making money from any invested isk. It will simply sit idle outside the game economy for a while and then be returned with interest. What you are suggesting will actually exacerbate the problem you want to solve. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1201
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Posted - 2013.06.14 13:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
...wow. just wow.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.14 14:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Your post is getting better.
Let me outline the end goal first: In the future I would like to see player owned factories, banks, research facilities, universities etc. all build on RL principles. These instituions will give players in EVE more choices and be the foundations for PVE wars over real assets not just ganking and griefing. These institutions would have to be so expensive to build and maintain that you would have to go to the capital markets in order to secure the funds needed. The foundation for capital markets go back to the most basics cost of capital and hence the need for a "risk free " benchmark.
Its true that Investors in state backed assets will receive a return and it will be a cash flow stream into the EVE economy. However as CCP now will have to balance the books it would properly have to create other income streams elsewhere to offset this. Further this is why we need more currencies, if one faction is borrowing or printing more money than the other, their currency will be put under pressure and the "risk free" assets is suddenly not that risk free anymore. Finally a risk free assets proberly will not yield that much that you will see a spike in inflation based on this. The liquidity they drain from the system will properly be more inflation dampening if anything.
Greatest benefit of this system is that it will be based on RL principles and hance more realistic than the current system.
When we have created a good sound foundation for currency and government issued assets we can move on to create a banking system which means that players will could get access to money in more ways: cash, credit cards, debit cards. |
RAW23
150
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Posted - 2013.06.14 14:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote:
Let me outline the end goal first: In the future I would like to see player owned factories, banks, research facilities, universities etc. all build on RL principles.
Have you played eve? We have all those things.
Quote: These instituions will give players in EVE more choices and be the foundations for PVE wars over real assets not just ganking and griefing. These institutions would have to be so expensive to build and maintain that you would have to go to the capital markets in order to secure the funds needed.
errr ... ???
Quote: The foundation for capital markets go back to the most basics cost of capital and hence the need for a "risk free " benchmark.
Why? We have capital markets already in eve and just as in the real world they don't depend on a risk free benchmark that is secured by god.
Quote: Its true that Investors in state backed assets will receive a return and it will be a cash flow stream into the EVE economy. However as CCP now will have to balance the books it would properly have to create other income streams elsewhere to offset this.
No no no ... You are confusing ingame stories with game mechanics. CCP doesn't have to 'balance the books' of ingame entities.
Quote: Finally a risk free assets proberly will not yield that much that you will see a spike in inflation based on this. The liquidity they drain from the system will properly be more inflation dampening if anything.
What are your grounds for this claim? From my experience of the eve capital markets there are vast quantities of excess isk in the game doing nothing and earning nothing. Providing a venue for this isk to earn money will not take any money out of the active economy. It will just sit idle in a different location while at the same time also creating new streams of isk into the economy.
There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.14 14:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote: The objection is that they get a risk-free return, not just some return.
Firstly its not completly risk free as you are expsosed to currency risk and inflation risk. I see it completly reseaonable to receive compensation for not having access to you money for a period of time.
RAW23 wrote: This shows that you have little idea about the quantity of idle isk in eve. Providing new investment opportunities for isk that would, in most cases, be sitting idle anyway, will not decrease inflation.
I disagree, and just show you lack of understaning for economics.
RAW23 wrote: Investing in ships and equipment has risks. The value of your investment may go up or down and it takes skill to gauge the likely trajectories of the market. What you are suggesting is not comparable at all, since there will be no risk of loss and no skill involved. In addition, profits will not be earned through interaction within the player driven economy (i.e. transferred from one player to another) but will be created out of thin air.
Fixed Income assets are expossed to currency risk and inflation risk. They also have expossure to other risks which we however can disregard here.
RAW23 wrote: No. What you are suggesting is based on a baffling conflation of CCP with the fictional states in eve. The only thing your suggestion will do is introduce another way for players to receive isk from CCP. It will not, in any way shape or form balance anyone's budget because ... and this is amazing stuff ... the NPCs will not be making money from any invested isk. It will simply sit idle outside the game economy for a while and then be returned with interest. What you are suggesting will actually exacerbate the problem you want to solve.
Your argument do not make any sense at all.
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Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.14 14:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Quote: Have you played eve? We have all those things.
Have you played?
Quote: Why? We have capital markets already in eve and just as in the real world they don't depend on a risk free benchmark that is secured by god.
Only a small unsecured OTC market exist.
Quote: No no no ... You are confusing ingame stories with game mechanics. CCP doesn't have to 'balance the books' of ingame entities.
No they dont have to. But if you want to create a realistic universe they should do.
Quote: What are your grounds for this claim? From my experience of the eve capital markets there are vast quantities of excess isk in the game doing nothing and earning nothing. Providing a venue for this isk to earn money will not take any money out of the active economy. It will just sit idle in a different location while at the same time also creating new streams of isk into the economy.
If its true what you say that there are "vast quantities of isk in the game" then the yield will be low on the assets. Some will just be sitting there, others will not. You have no way of telling either.
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RAW23
150
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Posted - 2013.06.14 14:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
At this point IGÇÖm just going to back slowly out of the thread and leave you and your ideas together.
As Caleb said in your previous thread, you are somehow managing to confuse ingame lore and game mechanics and you show little evidence of any practical experience in eve's capital markets.
I don't think it's really worth discussing these ideas any further. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
Zaxix
Long Jump.
104
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
posting in a uniquely garbled MD troll thread. I can't believe you got taken in, Raw. ***Prodigal Frog***
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RAW23
151
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:posting in a uniquely garbled MD troll thread. I can't believe you got taken in, Raw.
I did wonder if it was a troll but his posting history starts with him floating similar ideas in F&I and I'm generally sympathetic to people posting in a second language. Sometimes what looks like muck turns up brass. Other times it's just muck all the way down.
Also, I may be a bit out of practice. There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
6
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
/popcorn
I counted -
Alexander wulfgard: 0 |||| RAW23: 15
For real, we want to play spaceships & spreadsheets and not real life horrible economics... |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
196
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
This had better be a troll.
In related news the supply of niave, ignorant and stupid far exceeds demand. |
Blueprint Seller
The Blueprint Shop
89
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
This appears to be the new thread for collecting together bad ideas and the exasperated responses to those ideas. |
I LIKE IT
HIGH RISK INVESTMENT
56
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Posted - 2013.06.14 15:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote:risk free GET OUT
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Alex Grison
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
428
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Posted - 2013.06.14 18:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
This is a weird thing. |
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
141
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Posted - 2013.06.14 19:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote: When we have created a good sound foundation for currency and government issued assets we can move on to create a banking system which means that players will could get access to money in more ways: cash, credit cards, debit cards.
I am all for making games more realistic but the problem here is that participation in eve is completly voluntary. This is why credit will never work. At the very least a toon that borrows a ****-ton of ISK can just dump the cash to another toon (probably an alt) and just stop logging in.
This ability for the same conscious RL person to assume multiple identities creates gigantic problems. Simply, there is no tool that CCP could create, short of a real life credit agreement, that would allow any recourse, whatsoever, that could not easily be avoided by simply making a new account, or buying one (which is already allowed).
I would love the complexity and realism, but this is, afterall, a game based on a virtual program. It will never work within any reasonable development budget, or an international legal context. |
Syrk
Project Cerberus Caldari State Capturing
8
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Posted - 2013.06.14 20:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
OP must be a troll.
Solving an increase in money supply by selling bonds (creating an increase in the money supply)? And buying back high-interest bonds? Dude, do you work for the Federal Reserve? |
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Adunh Slavy
954
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Posted - 2013.06.14 20:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
Stocks and bonds, sure it would be nice, but this idea? No thanks.
ISK must maintain its, for the most part (nerf insurance), time/effort cost to produce. NPCs just magic printing it for no other reason than a player purchased a ticket for more free ISK is a bad idea.
ISK must be produced by player effort, end of story. |
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
458
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Posted - 2013.06.15 00:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
Let's try and get back on topic guys. The OP seems to have a good heart. But I suggest something little different.
CCP will never do this, so we must take it upon ourselves to create a trusted banking organization that can float the bonds. Not just anyone can do this though, so I immediately think of myself.
I propose creating a central bank. This bank will have regional banks reporting to it. Instead of doing everything from scratch, we'll utilize the major nullsec powers. Each will be responsible for their own areas, but final authority will rest with the central bank. To promote new ideas, voting powers will alternate between the various regional banks.
Let's discuss. See Bio for isk doubling rules. -áIf you didn't read bio, chances are you helped fund those who did. |
Adunh Slavy
954
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Posted - 2013.06.15 02:21:00 -
[23] - Quote
Erotica 1 wrote: Let's discuss.
Who is this person and why are they talking? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4186
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 09:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Syrk wrote:OP must be a troll.
Solving an increase in money supply by selling bonds (creating an increase in the money supply)? And buying back high-interest bonds? Dude, do you work for the Federal Reserve?
This has to be.
Amarr *Frank*? Gallente *Mark*?
If anything Amarr should have Liras (they got something like a religious leader), Gallente are definitely for Francs and Minmatar Drachmas (duct tape held together republic). Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
RAW23
154
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Posted - 2013.06.15 09:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: ... and Minmatar Drachmas (duct tape held together republic).
That's cold, man.
Greek air conditioning
There are two types of EVE player:
those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not. |
Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.15 10:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
I am not going to comment on some peoples hash statements like: "get out" or "this is a weird thing". If they do not have any real arguments I will only hope they will stay away from this thread in the future.
One argument some people have raised is the concern that players will receive interest on fixed income investments in government securities.
So let me ask those people, do you find it fair, not to get compensated for not having access to your money for a period of time? and do you not believe in Cost of Capital?
The real world works this way and I believe it would be beneficial to Eve if they adopted similar standards. Communism is gone so lets adopt the economic principles from the free world.
If we in the future would like to see a liberalised EVE banking sector, maybe even private player operated banks and free economy standards this suggestion is one small step in the right direction.
It will set standards for cost of capital and bring awareness to players of financial issues into the game. |
Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.15 10:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Syrk wrote:OP must be a troll.
Solving an increase in money supply by selling bonds (creating an increase in the money supply)? And buying back high-interest bonds? Dude, do you work for the Federal Reserve?
Yes, Money held by state/central bank is not part of the money supply. Hence if the state issue bonds (which is fully subscribed for) liquidity will be drained from the economy. The money will be repaid to investors with interest eventually , but at this time new bonds will also be issued to cover the outstanding notional + interest and possible deficit. Again draining the liquidity from the economy. This procedure can go on in perpetual as long as their is high enough demand for the securities. If investors stop having faith in the securities even with higher yield the central bank could buy the securities which instead would put pressure on the FX.
nb, do not work for Federal Reserve, the treasury or any other central bank or government organisation.
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Alexander wulfgard
Plasmatek The Aurora Shadow
0
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Posted - 2013.06.15 10:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Stocks and bonds, sure it would be nice, but this idea? No thanks.
ISK must maintain its, for the most part (nerf insurance), time/effort cost to produce. NPCs just magic printing it for no other reason than a player purchased a ticket for more free ISK is a bad idea.
ISK must be produced by player effort, end of story.
If you want a free capital market this is the first baby step in this direction. NPCs are already "magically printing" all ISK at the moment! And as long as no free banking system exist all ISK will continue to be printed by NPCs.
ISK cannot be produced by player efforts in any way. Only its value are derrived from player operations like mining, R&D and manufacturing.
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Speculation Dave
Tiericide Kings
10
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Posted - 2013.06.15 10:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alexander wulfgard wrote:I am not going to comment on some peoples hash statements If you ignore those then this thread has no content at all.
What is the point of making so many posts about stuff that has already been done, even if you pretend it hasnt, if we cant ridicule you for it?
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arabella blood
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
7
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Posted - 2013.06.15 11:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
Listen, they called from the goverment, they want you back... |
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