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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Haramir Haleths
Nutella Bande
11
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
The Local is a problem .... but just in Jita
Have a nice day |
Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:24:00 -
[32] - Quote
Here i was fueling up the remove local train.
But it looks like every ones slowly starting to under stand the problem of the listing EVERYONE INSTANTLY.
Instant is the problem, as well as the showing up while cloaked.
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Tikktokk Tokkzikk
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
145
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
I think we should have three locals: System wide local: emtpy everywhere but highsec. Constellation wide local: empty in nullsec and w-space. Region wide local: empty in w-space. (With "empty" I mean behaving like local in w-space)
This would give people a general idea of what's around them without knowing exactly where everyone are.
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Tiven loves Tansien
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
844
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Most comprehensive study ever.
I didn't even read it. |
Ramona McCandless
Standards and Practices Petition Blizzard
359
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
Dont remove local
Remove KillBoards
Then people wouldnt be such pussies about dying
Tell The Others |
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
441
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
If local was really a problem, it wouldn't exist anymore. _______________________________________ Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1402
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Posted - 2013.06.17 13:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
There are two issues. One is local, the other is the nullbear.
Local, I feel, provides too much intel for too little (ie zero) effort. You know someone has entered your system before they've even finished jumping the gate. You know exactly how many people are in your system and can tell exactly when they come and go. This intel is extremely powerful in low population null sec space, and I feel it hinders solo/small gang pvp in null, as it allows people - both carebears and pvpers alike - intel far too quickly regarding potential threats.
The other problem is nullbears. These aren't your regular nullsec player, they're the bear ones. They want to know, with absolute certainty, when they are safe, and when they are threatened. They want the unknown variables removed entirely. They are bad EVE players and bad people in general. They use a variety of underhanded tactics to spread their malignant views and desires, such as attempting to pretend this is an issue with "AFK" players. AFK players are irrelevant entities, but on the surface "CCP get rid of AFK players" isn't as laughably invalid as "CCP get rid of uncertainty and risk" |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1402
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Posted - 2013.06.17 13:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Jack Miton wrote:The problem with local is that roughly 90% of people in nullsec pos/dock up if there are more than 3 other people in local. Basically it's free intel which causes people to avoid fights and makes it easy for them to do so. And? Removing that intel would be a tremendously bad idea because then it would be impossible to rat without falling prey to cloaky hot droppers all the time. And no, in ratting systems we tend to dock up if someone we don't know shows up in local. It's pragmatic. Do you seriously expect us to come fight you in our ratting ships? I'm sure you'd love that, but be honest here. You just want easy prey. If you were to show up in, say, a staging or home system then we'd be more likely to come out and kill you, but most people generally don't keep PVP ships in a ratting system.
Impossible to PVE without local? Well how the hell have I been earning isk in wormholes the last two years?
Anyway, very few want the complete removal of local intel, most want it to simply be less overpowered than it is, and maybe require a bit of effort. If we were to "turn down" local a bit so it's not quite as instant and infallible, then we could turn up/create some extra means of gathering intel |
Bl4ck Ph03n1x
Gangsters And Gentlemen Silent Ascension
40
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Posted - 2013.06.17 13:18:00 -
[39] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Removing that intel would be a tremendously bad idea because then it would be impossible to rat without falling prey to cloaky hot droppers all the time.
Remove Local, balance cloaky accordingly, balance cyno accordingly. To CCP: Balance FIRST, THEN remove local. Stop doing things in the wrong order. Is that THAT hard? Don't feed the trolls. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5577
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Posted - 2013.06.17 14:59:00 -
[40] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Jack Miton wrote:The problem with local is that roughly 90% of people in nullsec pos/dock up if there are more than 3 other people in local. Basically it's free intel which causes people to avoid fights and makes it easy for them to do so. And? Removing that intel would be a tremendously bad idea because then it would be impossible to rat without falling prey to cloaky hot droppers all the time. And no, in ratting systems we tend to dock up if someone we don't know shows up in local. It's pragmatic. Do you seriously expect us to come fight you in our ratting ships? I'm sure you'd love that, but be honest here. You just want easy prey. If you were to show up in, say, a staging or home system then we'd be more likely to come out and kill you, but most people generally don't keep PVP ships in a ratting system. Impossible to PVE without local? Well how the hell have I been earning isk in wormholes the last two years? Oh let's see, how about the part you're conveniently ignoring where I said "cloaky hot dropper"? Or the fact that most PVE in wormholes is done in either cosmic sigs, or in groups? Or the fact that optimal setups for doing wormhole PVE are much closer to PVP setups than other types of PVE (except incursions). Or probably the most important fact, that WH PVE is vastly more lucrative than ratting is in nullsec, which allows you to assign people to do mundane things like watching all of the wormholes in the system and searching for new ones that open up so you know exactly who's in the system pretty much all the time.
Anybody that wants to kill you in WH space has to contend with either bringing cloaky ships which are generally rather terrible for this kind of thing (bombers are too fragile, as are recons, and cloaky T3s are mostly pretty bad) or bringing ships that don't cloak at all and therefore show up on dscan, so you can just get out anyway with advance warning.
Anyone that wants to kill you in nullsec can just have a fleet sitting on a titan or bridging blops, fly a lone bomber or recon into your system, warp cloaked onto the unsuspecting ratter, decloak, point, light cyno, and kill him. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
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Stetson Eagle
ROC Academy The ROC
45
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Posted - 2013.06.17 14:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
1) delayed local 2) make directional scanner alert when a ship is in range. filters per d-scan range and ship allegiance; friendly ships bypass alert by derived standings if you set so in filters. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5577
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:01:00 -
[42] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:There are two issues. One is local, the other is the nullbear.
Local, I feel, provides too much intel for too little (ie zero) effort. You know someone has entered your system before they've even finished jumping the gate. You know exactly how many people are in your system and can tell exactly when they come and go. This intel is extremely powerful in low population null sec space, and I feel it hinders solo/small gang pvp in null, as it allows people - both carebears and pvpers alike - intel far too quickly regarding potential threats. You're also forgetting that it works the other way around - local intel immediately alerts any solo/gang/fleet to potential targets. So does the map intel. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5577
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Stetson Eagle wrote:1) delayed local 2) make directional scanner alert when a ship is in range. filters per d-scan range and ship allegiance; friendly ships bypass alert by derived standings if you set so in filters. Dscan doesn't include cloaked ships, so this is a no. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Signal11th
The Retirement Club
1047
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
Please don't mess around with my 10 minute neut warning indicator. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster. |
Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Dont remove local
Remove KillBoards
Then people wouldn't be such pussies about dying
Remove Killmails, delay local by 45 to 120 seconds depending on sec stats.
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Stonecrusher Mortlock
University of Caille Gallente Federation
157
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Posted - 2013.06.17 15:52:00 -
[46] - Quote
Raneru wrote:If there is "nothing" wrong with local then perhaps we could make changes to NPCs so that they all warp scramble in nullsec
got to make gas clouds and roids do it as well.
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DreznicK
OORt Cloud Research The OORT Cloud
7
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Posted - 2013.06.17 16:00:00 -
[47] - Quote
There has been so many threads about local it is no longer funny.
It all comes down to people don't want local cause it allows someone to hide. That is both prey and hunter.
People want local to stay because without the information, game play will slow down to much as people have to scan every system.
Neither option is except-able which means the game mechanics have to be changed and nobody can agree on what they should be.
So at the end of the day nothing is done and a thread will pop up every now and again about it.
Just like cloaking and the all of threads about it. |
Steve WingYip
Lumodynamics Power Control Corp Panda Cave
1097
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
Long term, it would feel more realistic to not have local as an intel tool. We should have an intel system designed that does not involve using a chat channel. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1450
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Crazy thought, and I don't know if this has been explicitly mentioned before.
But what if instead of local, the lowest level of chat you could get to was constellation?
that channel already exists, although most people close it down.
1. It shouldn't affect chat too much, as most people are either on comms, or chatting in private channels (corp etc). 2. It still gives intel. it just isn't "perfect" anymore. You would know if a neutral is in the general area, but not necessarily which system.
Seems honestly like it would be an interesting comprimise. |
Endeavour Starfleet
882
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
They made a place where local is nerfed. It is called wormholes. That is why in my opinion the best way to read "no or delayed local" arguments as "I want free ganks! And I want them NOW!"
Unlike AFK Cloaking. Which people ADMIT to have been doing in wormhole space.
Again keep in mind. CCP does not consider AFK Cloaking to be an exploit. But they have never said that the current cloaking abilities are balanced. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5577
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Crazy thought, and I don't know if this has been explicitly mentioned before.
But what if instead of local, the lowest level of chat you could get to was constellation?
that channel already exists, although most people close it down.
1. It shouldn't affect chat too much, as most people are either on comms, or chatting in private channels (corp etc). 2. It still gives intel. it just isn't "perfect" anymore. You would know if a neutral is in the general area, but not necessarily which system.
Seems honestly like it would be an interesting comprimise. It's not a compromise at all. Instead of a character in a cloaked ship causing all PVE in a system to halt, you'll have that same single character in a cloaked ship causing all PVE in an entire constellation to halt. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
370
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
Local CHAT shouldn't be anything more than that..you want intel? upgrade your hub or where not possible pay concord deep space monitoring stations..make it a isk sink.
And make some space anomalies where it simply isn't possible to monitor traffic for periods of time(low sec incursions come to mind).
http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2193
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
Stetson Eagle wrote:1) delayed local 2) make directional scanner alert when a ship is in range. filters per d-scan range and ship allegiance; friendly ships bypass alert by derived standings if you set so in filters.
Basic filter examples: High - shows only hostiles and negative standings by d-scan red alert Null - shows all non-blues as red alert. Null incoming - shows all non-blues by red alert, but you have set range to 50000 km so you can expect someone on grid soon.
No. no active alerts.
The great thing about the current system is that for the most part you have to be WATCHING local. The "blinking local" thing CCP just added (while VERY helpful for a guy like me) was a mistake, an ati-pvp mistake in a pvp game.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5577
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Posted - 2013.06.17 18:46:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Stetson Eagle wrote:1) delayed local 2) make directional scanner alert when a ship is in range. filters per d-scan range and ship allegiance; friendly ships bypass alert by derived standings if you set so in filters.
Basic filter examples: High - shows only hostiles and negative standings by d-scan red alert Null - shows all non-blues as red alert. Null incoming - shows all non-blues by red alert, but you have set range to 50000 km so you can expect someone on grid soon. No. no active alerts. The great thing about the current system is that for the most part you have to be WATCHING local. The "blinking local" thing CCP just added (while VERY helpful for a guy like me) was a mistake, an anti-pvp mistake in a pvp game. I can agree with this. The blinking feature removed a little bit of the "pay attention" aspect. I watch local like a hawk when I'm ratting, always have. I don't think most people are as able to stay focused on such a solitary item for an extended period of time. Even then I've slipped up once or twice. This is how it should be. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
239
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
As much as I would love to see local removed, there is nothing "wrong" with it in relation to people freaking out over covert ops ships in the system. People are calling for locals removal in this particular situation, because:
Despite the fact that cannot prove if someone is AFK... Despite the fact that cloaked ships cannot do anything... Despite the fact if someone WAS AFK they cannot see anything...
They still wet their pants when then cannot find a ship on scan.
SO - since they insist on trying to "fix" something that is not broken beyond their own lack of will and risk taking, why not remove local so they don't get scared.
That - and local should be removed because i does nothing but make you feel safe. Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
407
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Posted - 2013.06.17 20:15:00 -
[56] - Quote
The problem is the people looking to gank PVE ships )which have no chance to even defend themselves in PVP due to horrible PVE mechanics) can't always get said ganks because they get spotted early.
Just a tip to those wanting local removed in NullSec, if they do it then everyone will just go back to Empire because the rewards will never be worth he risk in NullSec. Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Kijo Rikki
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
306
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Posted - 2013.06.17 20:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
Turelus wrote:The problem is the people looking to gank PVE ships )which have no chance to even defend themselves in PVP due to horrible PVE mechanics) can't always get said ganks because they get spotted early.
Just a tip to those wanting local removed in NullSec, if they do it then everyone will just go back to Empire because the rewards will never be worth he risk in NullSec.
I'm just going to call bs on this one. I, for one, will keep right on ratting, instead of watching local I'll watch a d-scan, be in a fleet with friends, if not ratting right with them in pvp capable ships that have a point and cloak fitted. Alliances will adapt by having sentries on strategic gates to watch activities, and life will go on, and to everyone who chooses to stay the profits will go up because we have less competition.
Local is a problem, but it's a problem with a perfectly viable solution already. I can understand why it exists and it is even justified in immersion by the fact the gates know who and what ships they just delivered from another star system. Now people have a problem with a solution to the problem of instant intel, because it's not 100% accurate. People don't know how to deal with a single unknown thrown into the mix and they want to fix the solution and keep the problem. |
Gealbhan
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
295
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Posted - 2013.06.17 21:18:00 -
[58] - Quote
I don't always sit there cloaked but when I do I'm not afk. I'm watching you from 50-100km out
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Black Dranzer
276
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Posted - 2013.06.17 21:20:00 -
[59] - Quote
Well, this is a bit more like it. A discussion about local and intel gathering as opposed to AFK cloaking.
Personally, I don't think Local should be an intel tool at all. Not even in high sec. Make it show only through participation, ala wormhole. Then, work on replacement intel tools.
Our real question should be "if local is removed, how would we replace it?"
I think we need a better sort of system scanner. Maybe something that displays where every active grid is and gives you a rough idea of the population within that grid. Something that picks up "warp signatures" maybe. Too much dependance on local and DScan. Both of those things should be removed, I feel, and merged into one system. Possibly something that overlaps with probe usage, even.
The core is that if local/intel is "fixed", then AFK cloaking just goes away by itself.
Doubt it'll get looked at any time soon, though. Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna |
Cyprus Black
Eleven Bang Bang
776
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:49:00 -
[60] - Quote
Can you distinguish between a cloaked player gathering intel from a player who's afk?
So far no one has been able to. Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
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