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Kraal Utrecht
Running with Knives
Nexus Fleet
3
   |
Posted - 2013.06.16 19:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have noticed in few topics about 'yet another' AFK cloaking threads that many people blame 'Local' to be root of problem.
So question to all those people:
What is wrong with Local?
On my part I theorize that this Local is an list of Pilots being connected to Star-systems facilities that allows Pilot to get data from navigation beacons that allow him precise maneuvering, connecting to market, making available communication with other Pilots, etc.
Whole Star-system is in movement and it is vital to be up to date on position of starbases, moons, planets etc...
Getting off the list would mean loosing all data - empty overview (except objects on local grid), no connection to market, chat, cannot warp anywhere, cannot send probes, etc... So basically - you are connected to all those systems and facilities - you are on the list. That is my justification to Local list.
So what is beyond this? Is it just difference in theorized models justifying or unjustifying presence of Local or is there something else you have on mind?
Some stated that I and others should not take voice on case that have no idea about, then please enlighten me and lots of others. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
5568
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 19:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
There is no problem.
-áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Late Night Alliance
2625
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Posted - 2013.06.16 19:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'll bite....
The long and short of it is that people use it as and instant and infallible intel tool to avoid conflict in the first place. Right now, it's nearly impossible to surprise someone or catch them off guard without a cyno and Titan or Black-ops.
You see a hostile enter your system (through local)? Dock up everything, call out of the PvPers, and only come out when the threat has been removed or chased off.
Even PvPers are guilty of using Local. As soon as they see a spike of hostiles in Local they run for the hills until they can better assess what they are dealing with.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2499
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 19:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Beat. Beat that horse. Beat that horse to death!
There's already a huge thread on everything that could be said about this subject here:
IBTL
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
GreenSeed
474
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Posted - 2013.06.16 19:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
there's no problem with local, the problem is with peoples gameplay expectations. they log in, see a neutral and think "oh well, no eve today." do that 3 days in a row, and they start making threads about how cloaks are OP, and whatnot...
one could argue that the source of the problem is the gameplay expectation generated by NBSI diplomacy... compare it to NRDS, the CVA space wizards expect to have their day ruined by a neutral in local, and they plan accordingly. any other SOV bear? they just had their day ruined.
forget about running an anom with some other players in a bunch of t1 bcs. they cant conceive the idea of not using their pimpship or carrier to rat. and group play? forget it. eve is a single player game, unless there's a CTA.
CCP can't force all alliances to adopt NRDS and the shift in gameplay expectations that comes with it, but they can remove local on null, or have it at least list only friendlies, or maybe make using a cloak unlist the pilot from local... that way they can have the null bears understand that, no, you cant have safe space. no, you are not supposed to run anoms solo. and yes, it is ok to have a cyno light up and have to man it up or scram like rats. that's what they sign up for when they subscribed to eve.
maybe if we start that way we can finally properly balance the rewards of null, nerf the **** outta high, or better yet, get rid of CONCORD once and for all.
one can only dream. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14881
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Posted - 2013.06.16 19:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Local is a problem because people treat it as an intel tool and get horribly upset when its otherwise 100% accurate information does not translate into 100% certain intel, and then get horribly scared by the uncertainty this creates.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
Point Blank Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 19:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
ONOZ NOT TEH CLOAKING, ANYTHING BUT TEH CLOAKING. GOD, WHAT A WORLD WITH CLOAKING IN IT AND SO MANY PROBLEMS HARBLE GARBLE TEH CLOAKING AND AFK AND I PEED MY PANTS AND DOCKED.
Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Kraal Utrecht
Running with Knives
Nexus Fleet
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 19:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:there's no problem with local, the problem is with peoples gameplay expectations. they log in, see a neutral and think "oh well, no eve today." do that 3 days in a row, and they start making threads about how cloaks are OP, and whatnot...
one could argue that the source of the problem is the gameplay expectation generated by NBSI diplomacy... compare it to NRDS, the CVA space wizards expect to have their day ruined by a neutral in local, and they plan accordingly. any other SOV bear? they just had their day ruined.
yeah, one neut in local and everyone goes crazy instead plan something to outsmart him (if he is really there to get some juicy kill)
Quote:forget about running an anom with some other players in a bunch of t1 bcs. they cant conceive the idea of not using their pimpship or carrier to rat. and group play? forget it. eve is a single player game, unless there's a CTA.
CCP can't force all alliances to adopt NRDS and the shift in gameplay expectations that comes with it, but they can remove local on null, or have it at least list only friendlies, or maybe make using a cloak unlist the pilot from local... that way they can have the null bears understand that, no, you cant have safe space. no, you are not supposed to run anoms solo. and yes, it is ok to have a cyno light up and have to man it up or scram like rats. that's what they sign up for when they subscribed to eve.
maybe if we start that way we can finally properly balance the rewards of null, nerf the **** outta high, or better yet, get rid of CONCORD once and for all.
one can only dream.
True but nothing new.
I only disagree on CONCORD part - no point elaborating tho... |
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
60
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Posted - 2013.06.16 19:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Local is a problem because people treat it as an intel tool and get horribly upset when its otherwise 100% accurate information does not translate into 100% certain intel, and then get horribly scared by the uncertainty this creates.
This
I'm pissed because there is a cloaked ship and I am afraid to undock.
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Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle
Tactical Narcotics Team
989
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 19:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you cloak, you should be removed from local. Just like WH space.
I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner.
Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall
I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |
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Kraal Utrecht
Running with Knives
Nexus Fleet
3
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Posted - 2013.06.16 19:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Xavier Liche wrote:Tippia wrote:Local is a problem because people treat it as an intel tool and get horribly upset when its otherwise 100% accurate information does not translate into 100% certain intel, and then get horribly scared by the uncertainty this creates. This I'm pissed because there is a cloaked ship and I am afraid to undock.
So generally what we can see here is that due to Local list - nullsec that by default should be place of monsters lurking in the darkness, either real ones or ones living in our minds, became kindergarten where ducklings flock to mother duck whenever strange shadow appears?
Is this^ the root of all problems that concerns Local and Cloaking that everyone goes crazy about? |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
Point Blank Alliance
341
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kraal Utrecht wrote:
Is this^ the root of all problems that concerns Local and Cloaking that everyone goes crazy about?
It's the root of all bitching, but there is no problem, except for people afraid to undock.
Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
14970
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Local is a problem because people treat it as an intel tool and get horribly upset when its otherwise 100% accurate information does not translate into 100% certain intel, and then get horribly scared by the uncertainty this creates.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2739
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Posted - 2013.06.16 20:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Local is a problem. Once you are into relatively empty space (say...most of null), local should switch to constellation. Then you still have some security in knowing whats going on, but the hand holding is a little looser. You know they're out there but if you want more accuracy you need to get some probes out and do a little work for your intel.
And since I feel the need to flog my dead horse.... Ships fitted with cov-ops cloaks simply don't show up anywhere unless they choose to make use of public chat.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
14971
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Kraal Utrecht wrote:I have heard from experienced players that everything in EVE can be countered either with proper fit or players experience or mix of both... except cloak-campers. Well what is there to counter? How exactly are they bothering you? At this point I'd normally ask which mechanic are they using, but I really can't be bothered. It's local that's showing them and causing you problems. So you do have options.
1. Stop using it.
2. Stop misreading the instant intel it's giving.
3. Understand that you live in null and be prepared for PvP all the time.
4. Understand that just as you use local to help you, others will try and use it against you.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific
Initiative Mercenaries
2187
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Posted - 2013.06.16 20:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:I'll bite....
The long and short of it is that people use it as and instant and infallible intel tool to avoid conflict in the first place. Right now, it's nearly impossible to surprise someone or catch them off guard without gatecamping, or using a cyno and Titan or Black-ops (which makes everyone paranoid and more adverse to taking bait).
For example:
You see a hostile enter your system (through local). Dock up everything, call out of the PvPers, and only come out when the threat has been removed or chased off.
Even PvPers are guilty of using Local. As soon as they see a spike of hostiles in Local they run for the hills until they can better assess what they are dealing with.
That's a pretty good explanation.
It also illustrates why the "remove local" peoploe are wrong.
The remove local people blame local on their lack of general success in pvp situations, and like all people who blame internal problems on external causes, they think "hey, just remove that one thing and everything will get better".
They tend to fail to understand the fact that people adapt, and one of those adaptions is "stop doing this stuff because it's crap now" lol. So while the "remove local" people think the end result will be more fights, more kills, more fun, the opposite of all of that is way more likely: fewer people doing pve things in null because wormholes (which ARE made for "no local") and high sec (less income/profit but deterrance factor from CONCORD) exist.
There are surely ways in which low sec and null sec can work without local, but it would invovle major rewrites of various parts of the game (for startes, how warping, cloaking, anomalies, asteroid belts and tackling work). Local is the easiet compromise CCP had as an option and it works. |
Sharise Dragonstar
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Sanctuary Pact
21
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Posted - 2013.06.16 20:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
"And since I feel the need to flog my dead horse.... Ships fitted with cov-ops cloaks simply don't show up anywhere unless they choose to make use of public chat."
Agree 100% with this statement. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
1450
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
One problem I've always had at a fundamental level in this game is that when I'm trying to be covert, people know I am still there. It has always seemed odd to me. I guess it's why I like wormholes, where covert hunting is truly covert. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
Point Blank Alliance
343
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Go naked. Close local chat. There's nothing so invigorating as freedom from information overload. Also, screen real estate.
If you're scared enough to dock every time there's a cloaky in system, then you don't need to undock. Ever. Because they're coming for you. Just you. And they will get you, eventually.
Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
3698
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sharise Dragonstar wrote:"And since I feel the need to flog my dead horse.... Ships fitted with cov-ops cloaks simply don't show up anywhere unless they choose to make use of public chat."
Agree 100% with this statement.
As long as you don't flog my afk cloaked horse.
Not like you'd know it was there, except that it's name shows up in local. AFKCloakedHorse
I am a nullsec zealot. |
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Alyssa Yotosala
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
120
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Posted - 2013.06.16 20:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
After reading the "against" comments, I still fail to see what is wrong with Local.
Their response can best be described as "Local is teh ebil because some players dont like conflict, and I dont agree with their playstyle, so CCP should listen to what I say and change a perfectly fine game mechanic because some people dont play EVE the way I want them to play EvE"
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Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
Point Blank Alliance
345
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alyssa Yotosala wrote:After reading the "against" comments, I still fail to see what is wrong with Local.
Their response can best be described as "Local is teh ebil because some players dont like conflict, and I dont agree with their playstyle, so CCP should listen to what I say and change a perfectly fine game mechanic because some people dont play EVE the way I want them to play EvE"
Actually, local is also the devil because some people like conflict. When I jump into a system, I get ready made list of who is there waiting to be possibly attacked. I don't have to hunt around to do anything to get the number and names of potential targets.
Rifterlings Corporation is now recruiting pilots for faction warfare solo & small gang frigate PvP. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
bbb2020
Carebears with Attitude
57
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 20:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Would it be in everybody's,- or nobody's interest if CCP made a test case in one constellation or region of space - let say the Drone Region (do anybody live there after the nerf?) or maybe in another null region of Space, where the alliance holding the constellation has agread to be the test subjekt.
It will give us all a chance to find out how "Eve Online without local" works and CCP a change to find out if they can code a working solution, in case it actually works in enhancing the gameplay.
That is, implemente it in small steps instead of - as a global patch.
I don't think anybody, inkl. CCP, knows how a null without local would effect the hole of Eve Online and that is why we don't see it implemented.
Well lets find out so we can stop those stupid forum threads. |
Raneru
Euphoria Released
Verge of Collapse
58
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Posted - 2013.06.16 21:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
If there is "nothing" wrong with local then perhaps we could make changes to NPCs so that they all warp scramble in nullsec  |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
5571
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 05:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:one could argue that the source of the problem is the gameplay expectation generated by NBSI diplomacy... compare it to NRDS, the CVA space wizards expect to have their day ruined by a neutral in local, and they plan accordingly. any other SOV bear? they just had their day ruined.
No, most of us just move and don't cry about it.
-áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics
K162
2011
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Posted - 2013.06.17 06:06:00 -
[26] - Quote
The problem with local is that roughly 90% of people in nullsec pos/dock up if there are more than 3 other people in local.
Basically it's free intel which causes people to avoid fights and makes it easy for them to do so. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
RAZOR Alliance
5571
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 06:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:The problem with local is that roughly 90% of people in nullsec pos/dock up if there are more than 3 other people in local.
Basically it's free intel which causes people to avoid fights and makes it easy for them to do so.
And? Removing that intel would be a tremendously bad idea because then it would be impossible to rat without falling prey to cloaky hot droppers all the time.
And no, in ratting systems we tend to dock up if someone we don't know shows up in local. It's pragmatic. Do you seriously expect us to come fight you in our ratting ships? I'm sure you'd love that, but be honest here. You just want easy prey.
If you were to show up in, say, a staging or home system then we'd be more likely to come out and kill you, but most people generally don't keep PVP ships in a ratting system.
-áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Kraal Utrecht
Running with Knives
Nexus Fleet
4
|
Posted - 2013.06.17 07:47:00 -
[28] - Quote
So generally we came to conclusion it is avoidance of conflict that is root of... bitchin.
I am still willing to defend my theorized justification to Local list as a list of connected users to Star-systems navigation computers, databases etc. as it in my model works similar to gps or internet.
So what would you say if you had a way to hack Star-systems protocols, that would render you or you fleet or wing or squad invisible to Local list until you would leave that particular Star-system, you would reveal yourself or do something that would run self diagnostic routine in systems that would bring you back (like hostile action against other ships/facilities that are normally connected to Star-system)?
I have a particular idea that could fit game without any changes to game like AFK-mode I proposed in other topic. Just would like to know if that kind of solution would be sufficient for most at least to get their name off the list (temporary).
*proposed idea would include hisec* |
Mark Androcius
136
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Posted - 2013.06.17 07:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
It's a conflict of interest.
Basically, the people who don't want anything to change are:
The ones who want to influence others by doing nothing, afk cloakers trying to disturb null local, in order to disrupt income streams and cause a corp failure in the long run ( that is at least the intention )
The people who want local gone are:
The ones who like to sneak up on people and get an easy kill.
if you don't show up in local, you can just get in with your bomber, find a target, set yourself up nicely and PLOW!!, if you're any good at it that is.
The people who want cloaking to become an active thing are:
Null sec industrialists ( not many of those...... yet ) who don't dare taking their expensive defenseless mining barges out, because of a very likely threat.
Null sec ratters, who don't dare take their expensive ratting ships out, cause even if they are well fitted, that cloaky could be a hot-dropper.
CCP has one of the toughest jobs in the world i think.
Keeping this game "balanced" is pretty much impossible, yet to keep their player-base interested and playing, it at least needs some balance.
If they give gankers more tools to kill than they give "carebears" tools to save themselves, they wil lose subscriptions.
If they give "carebears" more tools to save themselves than they give gankers tools to kill them, they wil lose subscriptions.
PS Veel plezier met eve
If a man speaks his mind in the forest and no woman hears him, is he still wrong? |
Toshiro Ozuwara
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Test Alliance Please Ignore
75
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Posted - 2013.06.17 08:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
If we didn't have local, people would just use cloaky alts on gates and logged into stations to update in game intel channels. Every major Sov group has an intel map that tracks intel channel reports automagically.
Will Fountain be Goonswarm's Waterloo?Read all about it in COAD. |
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