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Allows CEOs to expel members in space - Ideas for solving the previous abuses

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Amizo Hamma NoChumps Corp 0	Posted - 2013.06.19 23:22:00 - [1] - Quote Disclaimer: Yes, this post is fueled by recently having an AXOWer in my corporation and being helpless to expel them and discovering GMs aren't permitted to assist in any way except point me here. Solution: A new Crimewatch flag to keep war targets, war targets, even when no longer in a corporation at war. (read on) AWOXing seems to be endorsed, supported, and protected by game code. Should corpmates be able to shoot each other? Yes. Should there be spies, intrigue, and politics in eve leading to sabotage? Yes. Should non-corp capsuleers be permitted to remote repair a player participating in a member vs. member engagement? That's a complex issue I don't like, but we're not getting into that. However, instead of addressing the exact AWOX scenario with game code, lets address why CEOs and Directors aren't permitted to expel a member while in space. To my knowledge, I'm always looking for more information, the reason the owner of a corporation cannot expel a member while they are in space is simply due to past abuse. CEOs and Directors are subject to hellish headaches because of someone else's game abuse in the past. Abusive situations: You're at war with another corp/alliance. You have a bait ship waiting. Opponents attack. You expel the member in the bait ship. Instantly the opponents are flagged and attacked (by CONCORD and/or empire guns) provided you're in high sec or low sec near empire guns. You're sparring with a corpmate in high sec, they begin to fire on you, as a CEO or Director, you could expel them and watch as CONCORD rips their ship apart. Other potential abuses by CEO/Director. The number one reason I'm aware of is the first list item above. So, how can we address that so they can re-enable expelling members in space and addressing AWOXing?Simple, add a new limited war engagement flag to Crimewatch. This flag should be at least 15 minutes, maybe even 60 minutes in the event a chase or capital ship is involved, and when applied it treats ANY member of a corp that is at war with another corp as "suspect" and always a valid target as long as the flag is active. The flag is only removed by time expiration like all other Crimewatch flags. This has two obvious results. The first is it addresses member kicking abuse during war time, and doesn't affect other Crimewatch flags. The second is a side effect, if you happen to be engaging war targets during the last minutes of a war then you would be a valid target after the war is over but the flag would no longer be getting refreshed. Obviously, more code could fix this, but it seems like an acceptable side effect and even encouragement to fight the war down to the last second. If the other abusive situations related to CEOs and Directors are a concern... I don't see why, a member can simply leave the corp if they feel abused, but if the developers wanted a solution for this, I believe that's just as easy. If you engage a corpmate, enable the limited engagement flag with that member. Sounds dumb, but isn't that what that flag is for? In that situation if the CEO/Director kicks said member, the limited engagement flag would protect them from CONCORD for a short duration. Yes, this would also positively affect AWOXers, giving them time to destroy a target, but in the least we wouldn't have to endure them staying in corp and the engagement is effectively limited. Please discuss and upvote/like if you agree. I'm also looking for improvement, suggestions, and thoughts on possible unintended consequences. --Amizo
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 440	Posted - 2013.06.19 23:28:00 - [2] - Quote Rather than adding a new flag, it's possible to just use the Limited Engagement flag we already have. I still see how being able to willy-nilly expel corp members left and right while in space can be a Very Bad ThingGäó, but using the things we already have rather than proposing to add new ones might help your cause a little.
Rented Hunter Heavy Industries 103	Posted - 2013.06.19 23:45:00 - [3] - Quote There's little reason such archaic mechanics such as 'Wait until they logout, disconnect, and/or you log in faster than them after downtime' should still be around for removing someone from your corporation. The only potential abuse left over if a limited engagement system were in place that I can think of at the moment would probably be along the lines of getting a POS tower to throw a 'former' corpmate out of the forcefield and commence firing on them.... I'm too lazy to check at the moment but I think you might be able to do that with 'current' corpmates anyways.
Draconus Lofwyr EntroPrelatial Industria EntroPraetorian Aegis 65	Posted - 2013.06.20 00:01:00 - [4] - Quote simple fix, set a remove from corp flag for next time they log out/dock in station, problem solved, but no, that would be too easy to provide, everything else can be queued up, why not that?
Freighdee Katt Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 199	Posted - 2013.06.20 00:20:00 - [5] - Quote Some sort of clock time countdown timer on the kick + apply the limited engagement flag in a sensible way where an expelled pilot is in combat fixes all of the possible issues. Even if that doesn't cover it all, how it works now is just dead stupid and needs to be fixed. If it causes other issues, then address them rather than hiding them under the skirt of a plainly idiotic mechanic that causes more problems than it ever fixed.
Amizo Hamma NoChumps Corp 1	Posted - 2013.06.20 00:39:00 - [6] - Quote First of all, my goal is find a way to address the abuse that lead to CEO/Directors not being able to kick members in space. Secondly, using an existing Crimewatch flag might not be a good idea. For example, in the corporate warfare scene and using my previous example: the bait ship is attacked by a 10-man fleet from their war oppontents, but only 5 are in range and taking action on the bait ship. CEO expels the member flying bait, and due to the limited engagement flag mechanics only 5 of the 10 man fleet are protected, the rest get CONCORDed if they don't react quickly enough to the member being expelled. Code-wise, I would imagine that a corp or alliance level flag would be easier to implement and more difficult to have issues with and would solve the above contingency. TL;DR: If you're at war when shots are fired, you should stay at war for a specified duration even if you're no longer in a corporation or alliance that is at war. Then, we can have some more of our kicking rights back as CEOs and Directors. -- I'd also like to see a dev response regarding if there's any other ways instant corp member expulsion could be abused outside of top-down abuse. Like someone said above, this is archaic code and also very non-intuitive. It also has potential to bring corporate operations to a halt. --
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 2672	Posted - 2013.06.20 01:16:00 - [7] - Quote Amizo Hamma wrote: You're at war with another corp/alliance. You have a bait ship waiting. Opponents attack. You expel the member in the bait ship. Instantly the opponents are flagged and attacked (by CONCORD and/or empire guns) provided you're in high sec or low sec near empire guns. You're sparring with a corpmate in high sec, they begin to fire on you, as a CEO or Director, you could expel them and watch as CONCORD rips their ship apart. The current flagging system would already be able to do this... the problem is that the abuse was kicking people out right before an engagement (and thus, before any "flags" could be generated). Sorry OP... try again. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3783	Posted - 2013.06.20 02:42:00 - [8] - Quote Draconus Lofwyr wrote: simple fix, set a remove from corp flag for next time they log out/dock in station, problem solved, but no, that would be too easy to provide, everything else can be queued up, why not that? This option is simple and elegant. No timer exploits, no edge cases for people kicked from corp in the middle of combat. It could be abused by staying logged in"forever" (which is an issue to consider when CCP finally removes downtime), but I am sure there could be a ruling that GMs are allowed to forcibly log out a character who has been expelled from corp and is sitting in space for 24+ hrs. This option could also be extended to any session change, such as jumping through star gates, using a wormhole, or boarding a new ship. It would be very hard to continue awoxing if the corp all moves to the next system over when you are kicked. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players
Hesod Adee Turalyon Plus 28	Posted - 2013.06.20 03:06:00 - [9] - Quote Draconus Lofwyr wrote: simple fix, set a remove from corp flag for next time they log out/dock in station, problem solved, but no, that would be too easy to provide, everything else can be queued up, why not that? Very simple. Currently the only way to kick an AWOXer who wants to stay in the corp is to login before he does after downtime. For a lot of us, this simply isn't possibly because of sleep and/or work. Queue it up and that ceases to be a problem. If CCP ever removes downtime, then that might cause a bit of a hitch. But that is solvable.
Amizo Hamma NoChumps Corp 2	Posted - 2013.06.20 03:07:00 - [10] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Amizo Hamma wrote: You're at war with another corp/alliance. You have a bait ship waiting. Opponents attack. You expel the member in the bait ship. Instantly the opponents are flagged and attacked (by CONCORD and/or empire guns) provided you're in high sec or low sec near empire guns. You're sparring with a corpmate in high sec, they begin to fire on you, as a CEO or Director, you could expel them and watch as CONCORD rips their ship apart. The current flagging system would already be able to do this... the problem is that the abuse was kicking people out right before an engagement (and thus, before any "flags" could be generated). Sorry OP... try again. Very well. My mistake. Lets amend my flag suggestion. -- Add a new Crimewatch flag that is applied if you leave or get expelled from a corp or alliance while in space that was at war keeping you a valid war target for X minutes -- Better? Remember, my goal is get some anti-awox and anti-griefer control back in the hands of corp owners by allowing expulsion of members while in space. Thanks for the correction and information.

Amizo Hamma NoChumps Corp 2	Posted - 2013.06.20 03:12:00 - [11] - Quote Hesod Adee wrote: Draconus Lofwyr wrote: simple fix, set a remove from corp flag for next time they log out/dock in station, problem solved, but no, that would be too easy to provide, everything else can be queued up, why not that? Very simple. Currently the only way to kick an AWOXer who wants to stay in the corp is to login before he does after downtime. For a lot of us, this simply isn't possibly because of sleep and/or work. Queue it up and that ceases to be a problem. If CCP ever removes downtime, then that might cause a bit of a hitch. But that is solvable. I'd prefer something that works quicker such as actually just expelling them while they're in space, but yes, this would work and I could settle with that if they're not willing to do more.
Aliventi Burning Napalm Northern Coalition. 116	Posted - 2013.06.20 04:15:00 - [12] - Quote No. Your poor recruitment screening has consequences.
Amizo Hamma NoChumps Corp 2	Posted - 2013.06.20 04:17:00 - [13] - Quote Aliventi wrote: No. Your poor recruitment screening has consequences. I figured someone would say this eventually. The typical "helpful" eve player. Do enlighten us. How can you stay newbie friendly without adding excessive risk to your current members?
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 2673	Posted - 2013.06.20 04:59:00 - [14] - Quote Amizo Hamma wrote: Aliventi wrote: No. Your poor recruitment screening has consequences. I figured someone would say this eventually. The typical "helpful" eve player. Do enlighten us. How can you stay newbie friendly without adding excessive risk to your current members? By showing that you (and other core members) are capable of and willing to blow up anyone in corp you looks at you funny? Being "newbie friendly" does not necessarily mean you have to be "friendly." By being a little paranoid and taking precautions you can mitigate most of the threat that AWOXers present. Those that do manage to wreak havoc you can write off as a "bit of fun" to break up the monotony of normal operations. A good example was my first corp. The Directors didn't let anyone except the "core group" of the corp have access to anything or know about any "vital" structures (to prevent theft)... and the one AWOXer that did come along quickly found himself facing lots of newbies doing missions together in sizable gangs led by a veteran or two in a pure PvP ship... or mining gangs supported by a logistics ship, interceptor, and lots of combat drones. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 1408	Posted - 2013.06.20 08:46:00 - [15] - Quote No broken, doesn't require a 'fix'. Be more careful when letting trash into your corp next time. hope this helps m8 07
StoneCold Somali Coast Guard BootCamp 254	Posted - 2013.06.20 08:58:00 - [16] - Quote Quote: [...] Very simple. Currently the only way to kick an AWOXer who wants to stay in the corp is to login before he does after downtime. For a lot of us, this simply isn't possibly because of sleep and/or work. Queue it up and that ceases to be a problem. [...] That-¦s not true. Podkill the AWOXer, then remove him quickly. My true stories
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Academy The ROC 280	Posted - 2013.06.20 09:00:00 - [17] - Quote Quote: Disclaimer: Yes, this post is fueled by recently having an AXOWer in my corporation and being helpless to expel them and discovering GMs aren't permitted to assist in any way except point me here So, you have a player created problem, but you want a CCP created solution? Yeah, PVP happened, sorry to tell ya (actually, I'm not), but the GMs are not, and should not help you out in that situation. Next time get his API key before you let him in. Also, moar tears plz. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 448	Posted - 2013.06.20 09:31:00 - [18] - Quote Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't AWOXing one of those things that CCP is completely okay with and uses as part of its various ad campaigns? "Join up with a corp, work your way up the ranks, earn money and power and trust and then pull everything out from under them - or don't. The choice is yours. What will you do?."
Syreniac Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 16	Posted - 2013.06.20 09:36:00 - [19] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't AWOXing one of those things that CCP is completely okay with and uses as part of its various ad campaigns? "Join up with a corp, work your way up the ranks, earn money and power and trust and then pull everything out from under them - or don't. The choice is yours. What will you do?." This is true, but it's more 'destroy them in one massive burst of treachery' than 'lurk around and make sure you're around at 11 am every day'
Alpha Taredi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.06.20 09:37:00 - [20] - Quote I suppose doing proper api & background checks is too much work?

Kaarous Aldurald ROC Academy The ROC 280	Posted - 2013.06.20 09:46:00 - [21] - Quote Alpha Taredi wrote: I suppose doing proper api & background checks is too much work? Apparently, yes. A determined awoxer can get around this, of course. But the majority of potential awoxings, can be avoided thusly. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Muad 'dib The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos 1140	Posted - 2013.06.20 09:52:00 - [22] - Quote Would give wormholers the ability to use a core game mechanic in the space they live in too. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Amizo Hamma NoChumps Corp 3	Posted - 2013.06.21 00:03:00 - [23] - Quote I figured I'd get all of those responses. More tears. PVP happens. CCP shouldn't make up for your mistakes. etc. etc. blah blah. Maybe if people read anything I had posted before replying they'd discover my intent for this feature and idea post: As a CEO or Director wouldn't it be nice if you could kick members that are in space? That's it. That's all I was getting at. It has implications for anti-griefing, wormhole corps, and more. The rest of my walls of text were my attempts at intelligently walking through the issues of regaining that ability to kick members while they're in space and looking at possible solutions for those issues. Obviously internet forums for a video game isn't where I should be expecting intelligent discourse, but this isn't for the players. It's for the devs.
Black Dranzer 290	Posted - 2013.06.21 00:16:00 - [24] - Quote Corp-side limited engagements are clunky and probably hard to program. I agree that a simple "Eject from corp on next logout or dock" flag would be far better. Or hell, even "Eject from corp on next warp" could work. Don't give me this crap about "Hurr durr choices consequences". This is not an intentional gameplay style designed to promote interesting interactions, it's an unavoidable oversight that only exists because CCP was trying to fix a far worse exploit from past times. Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 463	Posted - 2013.06.21 03:17:00 - [25] - Quote I wonder what the so-called "original exploit" was.
Black Dranzer 302	Posted - 2013.06.21 12:08:00 - [26] - Quote Alvatore DiMarco wrote: I wonder what the so-called "original exploit" was. Amizo Hamma wrote: Abusive situations: You're at war with another corp/alliance. You have a bait ship waiting. Opponents attack. You expel the member in the bait ship. Instantly the opponents are flagged and attacked (by CONCORD and/or empire guns) provided you're in high sec or low sec near empire guns. You're sparring with a corpmate in high sec, they begin to fire on you, as a CEO or Director, you could expel them and watch as CONCORD rips their ship apart. Other potential abuses by CEO/Director. Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
BOldMan Zass Proteus Logistik Honey Badger Coalition 0	Posted - 2013.07.26 20:06:00 - [27] - Quote This exploit is used by pizza right now. Using exploits must be punished cf eve rules. Or GM and other people involved in overwatch this game to work properly are failing hard.
Freighdee Katt Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 467	Posted - 2013.07.26 21:53:00 - [28] - Quote The automatic LE flag on corp-against-corp combat start is a good idea. It's been suggested before. Too bad we're past the cutoff for the current round of "Reasonable Things." The current mechanic of "anything goes in corp-on-corp" could easily be changed to "any corp-on-corp aggression automatically begins a limited engagement." Rather than having corp-specific LE rules, just make any attack on a corpmate start a regular LE, and then let the already established LE code kick in. Booting someone from the corp should have no effect on the LE timer running, and it would continue to run so long as aggression continues. If the LE ends, because combat ended, then it's just neut-on-neut and the usual rules apply. But so long as the LE continues, there is no exploit. If someone manages to break combat long enough for it to end, then that should not be a problem, and neither party can restart without the expected consequences. Do this, and you completely solve the "exploits," in a way that makes good and sensible use of the new rules and reliable code already built into Crimewatch. With this in place, there is no longer any need for idiotic kludge-arounds like "can't kick in space."
Hesod Adee Turalyon Plus 62	Posted - 2013.07.26 22:21:00 - [29] - Quote Amizo Hamma wrote: Aliventi wrote: No. Your poor recruitment screening has consequences. I figured someone would say this eventually. The typical "helpful" eve player. Do enlighten us. How can you stay newbie friendly without adding excessive risk to your current members? Ask for a full API check from all new recruits. Check it. Check the recruits killboard history and question any time they shoot their own corp members. StoneCold wrote: That-¦s not true. Podkill the AWOXer, then remove him quickly. There is no way to catch a pod in high or low sec without the target making a mistake. Black Dranzer wrote: Or hell, even "Eject from corp on next warp" could work. That would limit the potential damage the AWOXer could do by far too much for my liking. What happens if they do a short, in battle, warp ? Freighdee Katt wrote: The automatic LE flag on corp-against-corp combat start is a good idea. It's been suggested before. Too bad we're past the cutoff for the current round of "Reasonable Things." That could work to allow kicking in space. But it would also drastically limit the potential damage the AWOXer could do. With the kick on next log/dock flag, the only change is that you don't have to race to login when downtime ends to kick the AWOXer. A race that can easily be lost as the AWOXer just needs to login but the CEO needs to login, load into space/station and then hit the kick button. But for many CEO's, they can't even attempt that race without missing work or sleep. Giving a major advantage to AWOXers living in AU timezones, as downtime happens during their primetime.
Omega Flames Last Resort Inn 38	Posted - 2013.07.27 01:47:00 - [30] - Quote Amizo Hamma wrote: Disclaimer: Yes, this post is fueled by recently having an AXOWer in my corporation and being helpless to expel them and discovering GMs aren't permitted to assist in any way except point me here. you are allowed to kick when they are in space and logged off already and if a person is staying online 23/7 to harrass your corp then a GM can infact kick them once the 24 hour wait time is over (that is 24 hours from the last time they had any corp roles). If any GM told you they couldnt after the 24 hours was already up then that GM doesnt know how to do his job and you need to demand the petition be fowarded to a senior GM. (and yes I know all this for a fact as I've been a ceo/director for over 3 years now and have had the same issue come up before)



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