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Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group
DarkCorp Imperium
87
   |
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?
I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.
Thanks. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto.
Veto Corp
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why use an existing wheel when you can reinvent a new one?
Anastasia -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á Dominique-á-á Mashie -á-á Monica |
Solhild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
I just upgraded my PC and CQ looks incredible, fact.
No idea about Incarna, haven't seen it yet. |
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Incarna was too good to be true... sadly...  |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
92
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?
I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.
Thanks.
see the stars? CCP wanted to reach those using a pinto.
that's what happened.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
129
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Having an avatar which walks around a room or station with other avatars adds zero gameplay to an internet spaceship game. This game is not about what happens inside stations, and never will be. It is about space and spaceships. Primarily burning down the former, and blowing up the latter. |
Dielax
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Well, I hope they at least put in the new CQ. The Gallente one looked mint!
|
Skaz
Skazmanian Industries
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:I don't know **** about making video games and this has been bugging me for a long time. What was the problem with the Incarna "engine" (i dont even know what terms to use) that made it so costly to develop yet so underwhelming? Couldn't they have used existing examples from other games and already have created full working multiplayer station environments? Is it because they are trying to make such high-quality graphics?
I'm really clueless about this stuff and would greatly appreciate some explanation of what's going on.
Thanks.
They were developing a game called World of Darkness. The plan seems to have been to use the same engine in both Incarna and WoD.
That turned out to be more time consuming and expensive than planned or they didn't simply have the money in the first place.
What you saw of the engine in the CQ is essentially a Beta test. And in the end you need content to go with your engine. And that takes more time and more money...
Add to the fact that they are doing Dust 514 and maintaining EVE at the same time it's a doomed venture with the income from EVE being the only steady funding to pay loans and stuff.
Especially after ppl started to resent the frozen nature of content in EVE and lack of any attention beyond maintenance and a torrent of unsubbing started. Then they noticed that the finances weren't likely to add up.
In the end it's all about money. |
Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group
DarkCorp Imperium
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Great, thanks.
So could you say that WiS itself isn't actually that much of a hurdle? Rather it's that they lumped it together with this WoD game which I assume needs these high-end graphics to compete with other games of its genre?
From my perspective, WiS doesn't have to be blindingly beautiful to achieve the desired Eve effect of giving the people who want it a greater sense of identity and drawing in those players who previously wouldn't have tried Eve without the spacebarbie aspect. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto.
Veto Corp
41
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dielax wrote:Well, I hope they at least put in the new CQ. The Gallente one looked mint!
They will add the remaining CQ's in the winter expansion.
Anastasia -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á Dominique-á-á Mashie -á-á Monica |
T-Jay Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:Having an avatar which walks around a room or station with other avatars adds zero gameplay to an internet spaceship game. This game is not about what happens inside stations, and never will be. It is about space and spaceships. Primarily burning down the former, and blowing up the latter.
- LP Store
- Insurance Office
- Bounty Office
- Ship Fitting
- Market
- Reprocessing Plant
- Repair Shop
- Science and Industry
- Agents
Stations have absolutely no purpose in Eve whatsoever and nothing happens inside them. They should indeed be deleted from the client.
|
Skaz
Skazmanian Industries
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 15:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Great, thanks.
So could you say that WiS itself isn't actually that much of a hurdle? Rather it's that they lumped it together with this WoD game which I assume needs these high-end graphics to compete with other games of its genre?
From my perspective, WiS doesn't have to be blindingly beautiful to achieve the desired Eve effect of giving the people who want it a greater sense of identity and drawing in those players who previously wouldn't have tried Eve without the spacebarbie aspect.
It's rather the further development of what to do with WiS. What do you want people to do in stations and so on.
That's a rather big process and takes time. And you don't really know if it'll improve a game like EVE all that much.
They don't seem do have fully worked that issue out. And spending money on that while players complain, rightly, about stagnation in the FiS part of the game is kinda difficult as you alienate the currently paying playerbase for something that maybe later on might get you some subscriptions.
CCP needed to fix the situation now, so they axed WiS till later on when they have time and money to fully work out the concept and create the content needed to make it work.
Right now they need to finish Dust and stop people from leaving EVE.
So it would be right that WiS isn't a hurdle, just takes money and time that they simply can't afford right now due to various reasons. |
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
61
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:
From my perspective, WiS doesn't have to be blindingly beautiful to achieve the desired Eve effect of giving the people who want it a greater sense of identity and drawing in those players who previously wouldn't have tried Eve without the spacebarbie aspect.
Indeed. For Dust514 CCP uses the Unreal engine which could have been used for Incarna as well. so Incarna could have been here years ago if it wasnt for the descision to develop their own 3D engine and use it for both WoD and EVE. As you say, the WoD requirement is probably higher than EVEs.
But in the end, its more than the engine. Incarna failed because there is really no gameplay, let alone EVE Online style gamplay. Had establishments been pushed out, it would have been another disappointment, because EVE online players dont want to dress up. they want to screw eachother over, compete and ultimately kill. Establishments would have been to Incarna what the tutorial missions is for EVE. Underwhelming. |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
You can't just stick one engine into another and expect the two to work. Integrating the Unreal engine into the existing EVE client would probably have required just as much work as developing the WoD/Incarna engine, and the results would have been much less impressive.
From what I've read, the Unreal engine, and other engines, do not offer the functionality which CCP wanted, and adding that functionality would have either been impossible or required so many resources that it would have made more sense to develop a custom engine. CCP chose to develop an in-house engine precisely because it could then make sure that engine contained all of the features it wanted, and not have to pay someone else for the privilege of using it. Keep in mind that no other game offers the level of customization found in EVE's avatars, or the detail of movement. Watch a character turn to see what I mean: most games just have the character spin around; EVE's characters actually come close to the way a real person turns in place.
The Incarna engine is actually quite nice. The problem is that it is really intended for a game that is to be released in two or three years. Consequently, it is meant to run on top of the line hardware, and is very resource intensive. In two or three years hardware will catch up with CCP's vision, and the results will probably be awesome.
The problem with Incarna is that CCP had a general vision, but no way to implement that vision in any meaningful way. |
Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group
DarkCorp Imperium
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 16:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
cool
i really appreciate the effort in these informed opinions
tyty |
RAW23
B And H Drive Yards
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
I have heard a few people claim that CCP actually had a workable engine for WiS a few years ago but scrapped it and went back to the drawing board. Does anyone have a source for this claim and/or any further info on why this decision was made?
Sorry for going slightly off-topic Elise but this seemed like a good place to ask and I thought the answers might be of interest to you re: your OP as much as they are to me. |
Dyner
Midgard Protectorate
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:
see the stars? CCP wanted to reach those using a pinto.
that's what happened.
So that's what that flaming pile of **** was I passed |
mkint
177
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Elise DarkStar wrote:Great, thanks.
So could you say that WiS itself isn't actually that much of a hurdle? Rather it's that they lumped it together with this WoD game which I assume needs these high-end graphics to compete with other games of its genre?
From my perspective, WiS doesn't have to be blindingly beautiful to achieve the desired Eve effect of giving the people who want it a greater sense of identity and drawing in those players who previously wouldn't have tried Eve without the spacebarbie aspect.
There were a couple problems with WIS. First, CCP had no experience with this kind of technology, and are ill equipped to even attempt it. I won't call it overly ambitious, but it's like a watch maker trying to build a sailboat... there is just very little overlap. Also, they never had more content planned than /dance, and some minigames that really wouldn't do anything for EVE, so even fully developed, it was going to do absolutely nothing for EVE.
But the reason why people unsubbed over it was that people took it as a sign that CCP had given up on ever fixing the problems that are literally killing EVE.
RAW23 wrote:I have heard a few people claim that CCP actually had a workable engine for WiS a few years ago but scrapped it and went back to the drawing board. Does anyone have a source for this claim and/or any further info on why this decision was made?
Sorry for going slightly off-topic Elise but this seemed like a good place to ask and I thought the answers might be of interest to you re: your OP as much as they are to me.
I have not seen anything about it from the EVE devs about it, but it's obvious the CQ's we have now has absolutely nothing in common with the incarna we were shown at fanfests. Literally nothing. The old incarna took advantages of some interesting technologies, were filled with vast explorable spaces, already had multiplayer interaction, and had some playable gameplay elements. It wasn't enough for it to be a feature complete expansion, but even in it's rough state, was playable. "Play" doesn't even begin to describe the CQ we got. |
Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group
DarkCorp Imperium
87
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Sorry for going slightly off-topic Elise but this seemed like a good place to ask and I thought the answers might be of interest to you re: your OP as much as they are to me.
go nuts, im interested in the meat and potatoes of this incarna stuff, instead of the more philosophical communal "soul-searching" slapfights that are dominating the other threads. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
143
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
All deleted beaceuse CCP
You know that message when
they GETING GANKED
We'll counter-attack as soon as
we properly outnumber them
|
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 17:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Several reasons. First off, when incarna hit it literally melted high end graphics cards. Literally, it melted relatively expensive hardware while only rendering a small environment and one character model (two if you count the rotating ship viewed from a constant angle). Some days (weeks?) later this was fixed somewhat to the point where it merely used up most of a high end Graphics Card/CPU's resources to load a small environment and one character model.
Basically, Incarna from a performance stand point was total fail. If you look at the industry many games, such as mass effect 2, crysis, Deus Ex, etc. load excellent high detailed environments that are enormous, with multiple high resolution character models occupying said environments. And those games, on max settings, used less computing power then incarna's one room (at least on release). Other games in the industry achieve far more than WiS using far fewer resources.
I honestly think that the reason incarna was shelved was because they couldn't get a large environment to render with more than 10 players in it at above 5-6fps using the highest end (non-server) computer at CCP. And the whole point of WiS was large station environments bustling with players. It might be nice to think CCP listened to the players, but at least on this one issue they probably hit a wall in terms of technical specifications and took the way out that saved the most face.
Also, there was some loss of functionality and the entire update seriously screwed multi-boxers but I'll let someone else discuss that. |
Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 18:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:I have heard a few people claim that CCP actually had a workable engine for WiS a few years ago but scrapped it and went back to the drawing board. Does anyone have a source for this claim and/or any further info on why this decision was made?
Sorry for going slightly off-topic Elise but this seemed like a good place to ask and I thought the answers might be of interest to you re: your OP as much as they are to me.
CCP did develop at least one working prototype Incarna engine some years ago. If you look on Google there should be several images still floating around, and maybe even a demonstration video. From what I recall, that engine didn't meet CCP's design goals and was scrapped.
This isn't anything terribly bad or uncommon. For example, Valve created three or four working prototypes for Team Fortress 2 before settling on a final design, which looked nothing like some of those prototypes.
|
Shahirahh Orgasana
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 18:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
About the only good thing to come out of Incarna (so far) are nicer-looking character portraits. That is, if you don't mind the same bland generic clothing and hairstyles across all races in the game.
Someday we'll see an all-inclusive space MMO with seamless, believeable transitions between flying in space, walking in stations, and ground-pounding action. That day is not today. |
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 18:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
only if CCP could talk to players and tell us the real reason of "no incarna" decision...
this way it all looks like one more broken promise and ppl feel like test rats for WoD... no WoD no playground for test rats... |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 19:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Well, let's see... (if by "bad" you meant poorly managed)
1. Due to a rushed released of the first part of Incarna, people noted that the CQ has not been properly optimzed. Processors heating up like an easy-bake oven and memory leaks being reported along with stuttering in frame rates.
2. NeX store was not implemented properly either (very few items available and costing too much).
3. No way of interacting with anyone in person even though you spent 2,000 Aurum on a pair of nice shoes (although you have a mirror to look at).
4. Terrible communication on the part of CCP.
Over all, a lot of people liked the idea and looked forward to it at first; but as Incarna arrived, people started hating it for the reasons stated above. |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
89
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 19:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
I didn't exactly see my graphic card melt or even stutter, but my computer is quite new, even though it is your standard media computer, not a dedicated gaming machine.
WoD & EVE Incarna were to use the same engine. I think it is unfair to say we were just test rats. You have to start somewhere and I think what they meant this first phase to be was a load test, as in, how much load does it put on our servers, how fast are response times, etc. They even mentioned that in some dev blog, but no-one cared to listen.
E.g. I'm working on a non-gaming project atm for a large global company. We are implementing a new CRM system. We couldn't just rush it out the door, we had to start somewhere small. So one country is now running the new system, the rest is on the old and slowly the system will be rolled out. Small steps usually are safer. But there is only so much you can emulate on a Dev and then QA server. You must see the impact on the real production server, which in CCPs case is TQ.
So I fully support their approach, but the initial roll out was horrible. This was not an expansion. It was a live test.
Creating a new MMO game based off a new engine is very very costly. You invest in developing technology instead of buying licenses for an existing one - like the Unreal engine -, you need a large crew of developers, artists, etc. There is no short term ROI, so your investors/shareholders start to get nervous.
This extra load on their expenses was too much for CCP and thus WoD and EVE Incarna are ... well... effectively out of scope for the next years I guess. They cannot write them off, as in financial terms, that would mean to write off any development time etc as losses.
I truly think they wanted it to be awesome and looking at the details of the characters, I think one day it will be.
Should they have started smaller or using an existing, tested engine? Probably. The downside to that is the "seen it before" feeling you get.
Lets give them some time and see what comes out of it. I have waited four years for Incarna, I can wait longer.
The only thing that infuriates me about this is that some people do not realize, this is actually a loss for all, not a win for some.
Their powers of the dark side have blinded you!  |
Di Mulle
22
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 21:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Aidan Brooder wrote:
The only thing that infuriates me about this is that some people do not realize, this is actually a loss for all, not a win for some.
Well, everything is relative. You can think of it as a win, in a sense "the smallest loss possible".
CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
90
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 21:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Di Mulle wrote:Aidan Brooder wrote:
The only thing that infuriates me about this is that some people do not realize, this is actually a loss for all, not a win for some.
Well, everything is relative. You can think of it as a win, in a sense "the smallest loss possible".
I think that remains to be seen. It is a matter of how well CCPs FI department is, because if they do not play the "just put on a lower priority" card well, they will lose dramtically.
If I had any shareholder interest in CCP, I would start to ask some serious questions. But such a debate does not belong on a gaming forum, so I will stop it here. |
Mashie Saldana
Veto.
Veto Corp
48
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 21:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alice Katsuko wrote:You can't just stick one engine into another and expect the two to work. Integrating the Unreal engine into the existing EVE client would probably have required just as much work as developing the WoD/Incarna engine, and the results would have been much less impressive.
From what I've read, the Unreal engine, and other engines, do not offer the functionality which CCP wanted, and adding that functionality would have either been impossible or required so many resources that it would have made more sense to develop a custom engine. CCP chose to develop an in-house engine precisely because it could then make sure that engine contained all of the features it wanted, and not have to pay someone else for the privilege of using it. Keep in mind that no other game offers the level of customization found in EVE's avatars, or the detail of movement. Watch a character turn to see what I mean: most games just have the character spin around; EVE's characters actually come close to the way a real person turns in place.
The Incarna engine is actually quite nice. The problem is that it is really intended for a game that is to be released in two or three years. Consequently, it is meant to run on top of the line hardware, and is very resource intensive. In two or three years hardware will catch up with CCP's vision, and the results will probably be awesome.
The problem with Incarna is that CCP had a general vision, but no way to implement that vision in any meaningful way.
That is quite funny since they are integrating the Unreal engine with Carbon for Dust 514.
Anastasia -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á Dominique-á-á Mashie -á-á Monica |
Oberine Noriepa
152
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 21:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
Solhild wrote:I just upgraded my PC and CQ looks incredible, fact.
No idea about Incarna, haven't seen it yet.
Looks even better if you accessed the test servers before their mirrors were replaced with something more current. (They don't have the other three CQs anymore.) The new effects make avatars look really nice. If you were impressed with the Gallente CQ in Singularity, it looked even better in Duality last week. |
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