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Why does CCP discourage experimentation in EvE Online?

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Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:14:00 - [1] - Quote Why does CCP discourage experimentation in EvE Online? I don't understand the point in making skills take YEARS to train it's just not fun not being able to do what you want and just having nothing to do but sit in a station and wait for your skills to get to where you want to be so you can finally do what you want to do. For example , a new player wants to PVP... He/She realizes if he/she wants to do this as quickly as possible he/she is going to need to do so in a frigate first... What frigate to choose? There are many and this game does a poor job preparing new players to play. It all relies on other players and unofficial information and guides most of which aren't willing to assist new players but rather take advantage of them. Already the player is overwhelmed and assaulted. Most people wouldn't accept this level of bull. Say this player decides to keep at it anyway. Now the player has to wait... and wait... and wait... and this is for a frigate... The player can only imagine a Battleship or a T3 Strategic Cruiser. I guess my question is why does CCP keep the training times for basic skills needed to even attempt PVP or anything really at a decent level extremely hard to reach? As new players they are "NEW" meaning they don't understand a lot of the games concepts and mechanics so why punish them with ridiculous training times while they experiment and learn how to play? Why not make the skills needed for the frigates much more accessible and reasonable? Instead of 9 days, why not back to the old 4 days? or hell 2 days would be even better? Or even less would be fantastic. What is the purpose in not allowing the new players to really explore every thing New Eden has to offer at least at frigate level in a quick accessible fashion and once they've decided hey well I want to specialize in Exploration or Mining or whatever they choose then make the larger ships more difficult to obtain? As it is right now... it's backwards... It takes longer to take full advantage of a Frigate and once you can you move to bigger ships quickly. Instead of being able to take full advantage of a frigate quickly and then moving to the bigger ships in a slower fashion. In order to take full advantage of a frigate you have to train a bunch of skills. You need a bunch of different cap skills... Gun Skills... Navigation skills... Thermodynamics... + Many More... These take time to train and should be level 5 before moving to a bigger ship as when you move to the bigger ships these little differences in percentages translate to large differences. Why would anyone go from a frigate to a Battleship without really high level cap skills? It just doesn't make sense and would only allow you to PVE, if that, which is boring, you just run the same uninteresting missions over and over and over when the meat of this game is being able to go into null and fighting other players or exploring but to do Exploration you need to PVP. " WELL ADAM YOUR WRONG THERE IS PLACES TO EXPLORE IN HIGH SEC CHH STEWPID " - ignorant player not listening The best part of exploration portion of the game is Wormholes but guess what you can't do them unless you can PVP and at a high level so you people who want to explore guess what you are going to have to wait a long time to be able to even get to a level where you might be able to succeed at that. If you were thinking that exact statement made by the ignorant player your missing the point, the point being this game is based on player interactions not dealing with the same computer AI which is no where near or like what a player would be. Not to mention the sites in the lower security areas are far superior and just all around more fun to do. If you want to push players out of high and into these less secure areas you need to give them the feeling they have a chance, that they might be ready to take on others, that they might survive. As it is right now with the current systems in place you have players who want to do those things but just realize that they won't be ready to do them for years and while this game is fun even in high sec if you don't break the monotony you will start to lose players little by little eventually. I know there are those older guys out there who no longer get the PVP rush they used too because the lines are drawn alliances are made and many aren't breaking. Giving newer players a speed boost to reach the skills of these other guys AT LEAST in frigates would bring a large group of people trying to make their mark out in low and Null and giving these older guys something to shoot at also breaking the control holds some of these older players have and will never lose with the current systems as they are. I hope this has been an enlightening and interesting read and perhaps won't fall on deaf ears but that is just foolish hope I suppose. If you are going to respond, please do so in a constructive manner. Enjoy, Adam G.
Tchaikovsky Makarov Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:16:00 - [2] - Quote More crying about eve being a to long game? Well... i DR;TL your post, make it shorter
Ghazu 604	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:19:00 - [3] - Quote YEARS JESUS IT LITERALLY TAKES YEARS http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
stoicfaux 2857	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:21:00 - [4] - Quote For the most part, you don't need level V skills to do things in this game. You need level V skills to specialize and/or make use of T2 equipment. Meaning, you should be able to get enough hands-on experience with an aspect of the game with level IV skills, so that you can make an informed decision as to whether to commit to level V.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 2683	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:22:00 - [5] - Quote Reserving Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Zircon Dasher 267	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:23:00 - [6] - Quote In regards to skill times: 1) Buy game time with RL cash 2) Sell game time for ISK 3) Use ISK to buy character with skills 5) Enjoy the fact that you did not have to spend your time skilling up. Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 15150	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:24:00 - [7] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: I guess my question is why does CCP keep the training times for basic skills needed to even attempt PVP or anything really at a decent level extremely hard to reach? They don't (see sig). The basic skills needed are all rank-1 or 2 skills, and you can start attempting PvP when you have them a lvl II or III GÇö that's somewhere in the span of 1,414GÇô16,000 SP, which even a new player can polish off in short order. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 5285	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:28:00 - [8] - Quote You're propably doing it wrong. To start doing things is very quick and easy. The people who fall for the trap, where they think they need to wait for skills to train at some specific level before they can succeed in doing things, generally never end up doing much of anything. If you want to do something, just start doing it and stop waiting for skills.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 2817	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:28:00 - [9] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: I don't understand the point in making skills take YEARS to train... No skill in this game takes years to learn. The longest is around 45 days. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:35:00 - [10] - Quote Zircon Dasher wrote: In regards to skill times: 1) Buy game time with RL cash 2) Sell game time for ISK 3) Use ISK to buy character with skills 5) Enjoy the fact that you did not have to spend your time skilling up. This is actually a great idea I just might do that.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:36:00 - [11] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: I don't understand the point in making skills take YEARS to train... No skill in this game takes years to learn. The longest is around 45 days. Mr Epeen skills < take Years to train. Keyword skills as in more than one.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:38:00 - [12] - Quote Destination SkillQueue wrote: You're propably doing it wrong. To start doing things is very quick and easy. The people who fall for the trap, where they think they need to wait for skills to train at some specific level before they can succeed in doing things, generally never end up doing much of anything. If you want to do something, just start doing it and stop waiting for skills. I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons and even then I need the CPU and power gird to equip them in a way where I could actually do something which takes so much time months, its a frigate why do I need to wait that long just to dive into the meat of the game and actually have a chance?
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:40:00 - [13] - Quote stoicfaux wrote: For the most part, you don't need level V skills to do things in this game. You need level V skills to specialize and/or make use of T2 equipment. Meaning, you should be able to get enough hands-on experience with an aspect of the game with level IV skills, so that you can make an informed decision as to whether to commit to level V. To PVP you need T2 weapons so you can use T2 gun systems which almost everyone PVPing uses , if you want to beat them you have match them. So yes you do need to V alot of skills especially Navigation, speed is everything for a frigate and is also important later on once you move to a bigger ship, that extra few M/S could mean life or death.
Elizabeth Aideron GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 36	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:41:00 - [14] - Quote its too bad there are no non-dps ships in pvp :(
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 15150	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:42:00 - [15] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons No. You really don't. Quote: and even then I need the CPU and power gird to equip them GÇªwhich is tied to two rank-1 skills, and which you don't need much of anyway since you don't need T2 weapons. So getting the fitting space is a very short train. Quote: in a way where I could actually do something which takes so much time months No. It takes maybe a week or two to get a good set of skills at a reasonable level. If all you want to do is try things out, it's hellalot less. Again, see sig. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
baltec1 Bat Country 6971	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:44:00 - [16] - Quote This 30 minutes and you can be PvPing away.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:45:00 - [17] - Quote So many nonconstructive comments, as I said hope if foolish. Landed on deaf ears this entire post did. The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is... Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates. This opens up experimentation for newer players to play around with different ships and technologies available in the game and then once they've decided on something they enjoy the most, they can shoot for it. This would also help push players out of high and into Low and null and just all around allow newer players experience more of what the game has to offer.
baltec1 Bat Country 6971	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:48:00 - [18] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: So many nonconstructive comments, as I said hope if foolish. Landed on deaf ears this entire post did. The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is... Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates. This opens up experimentation for newer players to play around with different ships and technologies available in the game and then once they've decided on something they enjoy the most, they can shoot for it. This would also help push players out of high and into Low and null and just all around allow newer players experience more of what the game has to offer. You can already do the things you want to. The answer is no.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 15150	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:49:00 - [19] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is... Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates. GÇªand the point everyone else is making is: it's already as low as it can (and even should) be. Experimentation is already just a matter of training a couple of low-rank skills, which takes minutes or (at most) hours. The only thing that can't be experimented with this way is flying a capship, and that's probably a good thing since those are something you shouldn't really experiment with GÇö it'll only end in tears. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:50:00 - [20] - Quote Tippia wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons No. You really don't. Quote: and even then I need the CPU and power gird to equip them GÇªwhich is tied to two rank-1 skills, and which you don't need much of anyway since you don't need T2 weapons. So getting the fitting space is a very short train. Quote: in a way where I could actually do something which takes so much time months No. It takes maybe a week or two to get a good set of skills at a reasonable level. If all you want to do is try things out, it's hellalot less. Again, see sig. Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition. In an interceptor it can mean the difference between fighting at 5,000m or 16km and doing alot more damage. To fit the ship the way it needs to be fit, I need Electronics 5 which I am working on, Weapons upgrades 5 because I need to use the T2 guns so I can use the T2 ammo and well I already have Engineering 5. Getting the fitting space isn't a short train it's probably over a month. Yes You need these skills 5 so you can fit the ships proper. Yes you need the T2 guns to be of any use to anyone including yourself in player vs player. Yes I really want to get into PVP, killing NPC's it not fun for me or my friends. You might like killing NPC's but that is you.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 2684	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:52:00 - [21] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons Fun fact; I didn't have any Tech 2 weapons for the first year I was in Faction Warfare. I still managed to be deal decent damage and be an asset to my group. Adam Gamel wrote: I need the CPU and power gird to equip them in a way where I could actually do something No you don't. Just tinker with the fit and find what fits for you at the moment. Adjust it accordingly as your skills improve. However, I do hear that Atrons, Condors, Kestrels, Slashers and Thrashers have very generous CPU and PG and can take on ships many times their size with barely any skills. Cheap too. Quote: Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition. Lol no. Faction ammo is used FAR more often than T2 ammo. And you don't need any fancy skills to use it. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 15151	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:53:00 - [22] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition. GÇªand neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with. Quote: In an interceptor GÇªbut an interceptor is not a GÇ£let's experiment with this playstyleGÇ¥ kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to GÇ£have a chanceGÇ¥. Your problem is not long training times GÇö it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:55:00 - [23] - Quote Tippia wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is... Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates. GÇªand the point everyone else is making is: it's already as low as it can (and even should) be. Experimentation is already just a matter of training a couple of low-rank skills, which takes minutes or (at most) hours. The only thing that can't be experimented with this way is flying a capship, and that's probably a good thing since those are something you shouldn't really experiment with GÇö it'll only end in tears. The point I'm trying to tell you as being a new character they aren't short even though they are shorter than some of the other skills.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:56:00 - [24] - Quote Tippia wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition. GÇªand neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with. Quote: In an interceptor GÇªbut an interceptor is not a GÇ£let's experiment with this playstyleGÇ¥ kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to GÇ£have a chanceGÇ¥. Your problem is not long training times GÇö it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours. So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems? No So yes you do need those things.
bloodknight2 Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS 84	Posted - 2013.06.22 16:58:00 - [25] - Quote The youngest player in my corp had a T1 fit rifter when he first joined us. We were all in T3 and some of us could fly a carrier. He had less SP than i had in gunnery Of course, now he can fly a T3. The time needed for skills isn't a problem to me. When i was in 0.0 with the goonies, some members (new to eve) couldn't afford a rifter and the FC (good guy DBRB) was giving them one. You do not need 25m SP in gunnery or spaceship command to pvp. Only a good corp/alliance and friends you can trust...and that's the hard part in this game.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 2684	Posted - 2013.06.22 17:00:00 - [26] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: Tippia wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition. GÇªand neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with. Quote: In an interceptor GÇªbut an interceptor is not a GÇ£let's experiment with this playstyleGÇ¥ kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to GÇ£have a chanceGÇ¥. Your problem is not long training times GÇö it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours. So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems? No So yes you do need those things. The exact fit? No. But RARELY do you ever encounter a ship with the exact same fit as yours. And did you know that Meta 4 guns have the exact same stats as Tech 2 weapons? The only thing Tech 2 weapons have is the ability to fire Tech 2 ammo (which is situational) and a specialization skill that only adds an extra 8 to 10% damage. And did you know that a Tech 1 Atron with Tech 1 mods can potentially kill a tech 2 fitted Imperial Navy Slicer? Or a Tech 2 fitted Crusader? Breachers and Incursus' can tank destroyers and all but the most ganky Tech 2 frigates. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Adam Gamel The Scope Gallente Federation 29	Posted - 2013.06.22 17:04:00 - [27] - Quote bloodknight2 wrote: The youngest player in my corp had a T1 fit rifter when he first joined us. We were all in T3 and some of us could fly a carrier. He had less SP than i had in gunnery Of course, now he can fly a T3. The time needed for skills isn't a problem to me. When i was in 0.0 with the goonies, some members (new to eve) couldn't afford a rifter and the FC (good guy DBRB) was giving them one. You do not need 25m SP in gunnery or spaceship command to pvp. Only a good corp/alliance and friends you can trust...and that's the hard part in this game. Yeah but you are lucky enough to be in a group like that, I will never get that chance.
Simetraz State War Academy Caldari State 775	Posted - 2013.06.22 17:04:00 - [28] - Quote I started reading and I gave up. Problem, even if the new player had the skills they wouldn't have the ISK to support the ship. IF a new player really wants the skills,ship and the ISK all they need is RL cash. Sell plex's and buy a character. Problem solved. Still say you should be forced to change the name of a character when you purchase it. EVERYBODY KNOWS
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 15151	Posted - 2013.06.22 17:05:00 - [29] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: The point I'm trying to tell you as being a new character they aren't short even though they are shorter than some of the other skills. They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV. Adam Gamel wrote: So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems? There is no such thing as a T1 interceptor, for starters. For another, that's the mistake you make: you try to go up against a poorly matched opponent. One of the skills you need to learn is how to spot a fight: what can you win against? What will cause problems? What is GÇ£impossibleGÇ¥? How do you work around these problems with what you've got? So no. You don't need those things. You need the player skill to pick the right target at the right time. Waiting around for your SP to grow will only ever make you worse at that (and, again, make you lose your ISK when you incorrecly decide that you're ready just because you've passed some arbitrary SP checkpoint). Oh, and if you actually want to kill stuff rather than just capture them, interceptors is probably the wrong thing to aim forGÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
baltec1 Bat Country 6971	Posted - 2013.06.22 17:09:00 - [30] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems? No So yes you do need those things. Condors have been killing much more expensive stuff for a good while now.

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