I guess my question is why does CCP keep the training times for basic skills needed to even attempt PVP or anything really at a decent level extremely hard to reach?

I don't understand the point in making skills take YEARS to train...

In regards to skill times:
1) Buy game time with RL cash
2) Sell game time for ISK
3) Use ISK to buy character with skills
5) Enjoy the fact that you did not have to spend your time skilling up.

No skill in this game takes years to learn. The longest is around 45 days.

Mr Epeen

You're propably doing it wrong. To start doing things is very quick and easy. The people who fall for the trap, where they think they need to wait for skills to train at some specific level before they can succeed in doing things, generally never end up doing much of anything. If you want to do something, just start doing it and stop waiting for skills.

For the most part, you don't need level V skills to do things in this game. You need level V skills to specialize and/or make use of T2 equipment.

Meaning, you should be able to get enough hands-on experience with an aspect of the game with level IV skills, so that you can make an informed decision as to whether to commit to level V.

I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons

and even then I need the CPU and power gird to equip them

in a way where I could actually do something which takes so much time months

So many nonconstructive comments, as I said hope if foolish.

Landed on deaf ears this entire post did.

The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is...

Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates.

This opens up experimentation for newer players to play around with different ships and technologies available in the game and then once they've decided on something they enjoy the most, they can shoot for it.

This would also help push players out of high and into Low and null and just all around allow newer players experience more of what the game has to offer.

The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is...

Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates.

No. You really don't.
GǪwhich is tied to two rank-1 skills, and which you don't need much of anyway since you don't need T2 weapons. So getting the fitting space is a very short train.
No. It takes maybe a week or two to get a good set of skills at a reasonable level. If all you want to do is try things out, it's hellalot less. Again, see sig.

I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons

I need the CPU and power gird to equip them in a way where I could actually do something

Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.

Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.

In an interceptor

GǪand the point everyone else is making is: it's already as low as it can (and even should) be.

Experimentation is already just a matter of training a couple of low-rank skills, which takes minutes or (at most) hours. The only thing that can't be experimented with this way is flying a capship, and that's probably a good thing since those are something you shouldn't really experiment with GÇö it'll only end in tears.

GǪand neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with.

GǪbut an interceptor is not a Gǣlet's experiment with this playstyleGǥ kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to Gǣhave a chanceGǥ.

Your problem is not long training times GÇö it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours.

So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.

The youngest player in my corp had a T1 fit rifter when he first joined us. We were all in T3 and some of us could fly a carrier. He had less SP than i had in gunnery Of course, now he can fly a T3. The time needed for skills isn't a problem to me. When i was in 0.0 with the goonies, some members (new to eve) couldn't afford a rifter and the FC (good guy DBRB) was giving them one.

You do not need 25m SP in gunnery or spaceship command to pvp. Only a good corp/alliance and friends you can trust...and that's the hard part in this game.

The point I'm trying to tell you as being a new character they aren't short even though they are shorter than some of the other skills.

So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.

Condors have been killing much more expensive stuff for a good while now.

I started reading and I gave up.

Problem, even if the new player had the skills they wouldn't have the ISK to support the ship.

IF a new player really wants the skills,ship and the ISK all they need is RL cash.

Sell plex's and buy a character.
Problem solved.

Still say you should be forced to change the name of a character when you purchase it.

Condors use Missiles and they work different from Gun's.

They are able to take things one from a great distance.

I see what your getting at but I don't want to fly those ships I want to fly what I am flying and still want to be just as effective.

They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV.

There is no such thing as a T1 interceptor, for starters. For another, that's the mistake you make: you try to go up against a poorly matched opponent. One of the skills you need to learn is how to spot a fight: what can you win against? What will cause problems? What is GÇ£impossibleGÇ¥? How do you work around these problems with what you've got?

So no. You don't need those things. You need the player skill to pick the right target at the right time. Waiting around for your SP to grow will only ever make you worse at that (and, again, make you lose your ISK when you incorrecly decide that you're ready just because you've passed some arbitrary SP checkpoint).

Oh, and if you actually want to kill stuff rather than just capture them, interceptors is probably the wrong thing to aim forGǪ

Rockets do not take things out from a great distance.

Light Missile Do.

So use damps.

Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.

In an interceptor it can mean the difference between fighting at 5,000m or 16km and doing alot more damage.

To fit the ship the way it needs to be fit, I need Electronics 5 which I am working on, Weapons upgrades 5 because I need to use the T2 guns so I can use the T2 ammo and well I already have Engineering 5. Getting the fitting space isn't a short train it's probably over a month.

Yes You need these skills 5 so you can fit the ships proper. Yes you need the T2 guns to be of any use to anyone including yourself in player vs player.

Yes I really want to get into PVP, killing NPC's it not fun for me or my friends. You might like killing NPC's but that is you.

They aren't short short is one hour not weeks.

I have not fallen in anything.
If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5
If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible

So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5

I wasn't asking how to counter them simply pointing out to you that light missile exist after your comment about how Rockets are only short range which I already knew.

So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.

I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons and even then I need the CPU and power gird to equip them in a way where I could actually do something which takes so much time months, its a frigate why do I need to wait that long just to dive into the meat of the game and actually have a chance?

Huh... I guess those guys ganking everybody and their brother in cheap destroyers with cheap weapons are just doing it wrong. I mean, their targets are dead, they have the killmails, but I guess it didn't really work?

And why do you think that everybody out there is going to be a 10 year old vet flying a T1 frigate?

Most everybody is going to either be new or learning in a t1 frig.

I will admit I don't know what I am doing, I am just making educated guesses as to what works and what doesn't based on trail and error on my part.

But apparently I am wrong...


So....

Who has a suggestion for me that will help me learn and get me on track?

I always judge things from the worst possible scenario and work from there.

In this case me in a frigate running into a 10 year old player who is bored in a frigate.

Almost every video game I can think of will result in you getting stomped by a 10 year old vet on your first week of playing.

Its just how it is.

Start fighting carebears and industrial pilots, no matter how "vet" they are.. they still blow at PvP. A few days of research and a good gameplan will make you win.

Otherwise go join a pvp group that is willing to take you in, but to do that you might need to change your attitude a bit.

I will admit I don't know what I am doing, I am just making educated guesses as to what works and what doesn't based on trail and error on my part.

But apparently I am wrong...


So....

Who has a suggestion for me that will help me learn and get me on track?

Where are these kill mails? I mean if your going to be an ******* and not help me out then why even post?

get evemon (and EFT) if you haven't already and make a reasonable skill plan based on the certificates, core, defense etc. EFT will help you adjust fits to your skill level and also you can import fits into evemon and it'll make you a pre-req skill queue.

evemon can adjust training times for your remap and implants, show you what you get for the time and whether it's worthwhile. EFT can show you roughly what your tank and DPS will do and you can see what all skill V will do to your ship stats compared to your character.

Where are these kill mails? I mean if your going to be an ******* and not help me out then why even post?

We killed over 600 exhumers in the caldari ice interdiction with 14 day old destroyer pilots.

We have killed over 3 trillion in assets using talos pilots a few months old in freighters alone this year. You can find said kills splattered all over EVE-Kill.

It's obvious no one is going to help me.

That's an Exhumer not a ship ready to fight in PVP. I don't have a Talos so I don't know how this applies to me but ok.

Everyone has been helping you.

That's an Exhumer not a ship ready to fight in PVP. I don't have a Talos so I don't know how this applies to me but ok.

Talos kills the freighter, destroyers kill exhumers.


Just go join RVB or brave newbies.

A ships a ship.

We have day old newbees tackling carriers in rifters.

I was thinking about doing this, but I will just run into the same kind of people that I've run into here on the forums.

I think I will just quit EvE altogether and find something else to do with my time something less frustrating and less stressful.

I was thinking about doing this, but I will just run into the same kind of people that I've run into here on the forums.

I think I will just quit EvE altogether and find something else to do with my time something less frustrating and less stressful.

Rifter is a ship designed for combat , a Exhumer is a ship designed for mining. I still don't get how all this applies but thanks.

Maybe you should, the game obviously doesn't suit you.

I have EvE Mon and EFT, I've heard that following Certs is not something I should do,

- Only a limited number of skills affect any one ship, module, weapon system, and specialty at any given time.
Ex1: Someone you are facing has about 20 million SP, but how much of that overall SP is actually combat related? He/she could be a HUGE industrial player with limited combat skills.
Ex2: A veteran player has just trained up the skill Large Hybrid Turret to level 5. That skill in no way affects the skill Small Hybrid Turret and thus the veteran will be no better or worse than before at the frigate level.

- Getting a skill from level 4 to level 5 only adds on an extra 2% here, 5% there (exceptions apply). If you simply train up all the skills within a specialty to level 4 (which takes a fraction of the amount of time it takes to get those skills to level 5), you will find yourself flying at about 80 to 90% of the effectiveness of a multi-year veteran with those same skills in that specific specialty at level 5 (which is something that can be easily overcome with the right module or tactic).

- Getting a skill to level 5 is supposed to be a painful train. Many players (yes, even veteran ones) opt to avoid doing it and instead train up other skills to level 4 (again, because it's faster).

Rifter is a ship designed for combat , a Exhumer is a ship designed for mining. I still don't get how all this applies but thanks.

My BootCamp members that have no skills to fit techII items would like to proof you wrong.

They have killed more in their first two months than most so called PVP corps.

They aren't short short is one hour not weeks.

[

Except you are wrong, I'll take fw as an example :
- You need support skills (navigation, cap, shield, etc) not only your racial frig skill and weapon skill at 4
- Implant sets make a pretty big difference
- Off grid boosters too obviously
That's a shitload of skills to train for a new player, your example is realllllllllllllllllly specific (fighting an indy char is pretty rare), most people in fw have optimal skills.
So a new character can't solo pvp even in frigs for like 2-3 months, do you find this normal ?

I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons and even then I need the CPU and power gird to equip them in a way where I could actually do something which takes so much time months, its a frigate why do I need to wait that long just to dive into the meat of the game and actually have a chance?

There is a downside to everything... The more SP you have the more expensive your clone becomes and after a time it becomes pointless to fly anything cheaper than that. Why risk your expensive skin in a cheaper hull that can get killed more easily?

How am I trying to run before I crawl?

I'm in a T1 Interceptor...

It's one of the first ships you are allowed to use in the game.

It has no tank... It's advantage is speed and maneuverability.

In order to avoid being webbed which reduces my speed, something I don't want, I have to fight out at range.

I have to stay fast so I have to use guns that can track well.

T1 AMMO doesn't allow you to fight with weapons like that at the range of 16km unless its crap ammo that does no damage and will never break someones tank if they have one.

My fit is going to be as follows.


T2 Focused Pulse Lasers x3

Warp Disruption
Tracking Disruption
Microwarp Drive

Damage Control 2
Velocity Mods x 2

They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV.

They aren't short short is one hour not weeks.

I have not fallen in anything.

If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5

If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible

You need

Spaceship Command 5
Evasive Maneuvering 5

If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need

Frigate Skill Level 5

if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential

You need

Gun Skill 5
Gun Skill Specialization 5

If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible

You need

Gunnery 5
Rapid Firing 5

If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive

You need Acceleration control 5

If you want to handle over heating as best as possible

Thermodynamics 5


So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5, I mean I get you might not need it to kill somebody but your against players that have been playing for 10 years some of them already have these skills 5 and if you want to compete against them you have to do the same.

I have not fallen in anything.

If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5

If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible

You need

Spaceship Command 5
Evasive Maneuvering 5

If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need

Frigate Skill Level 5

if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential

You need

Gun Skill 5
Gun Skill Specialization 5


If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible

You need

Gunnery 5
Rapid Firing 5

If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive

You need Acceleration control 5

If you want to handle over heating as best as possible

Thermodynamics 5

More crying about eve being a to long game?

Well... i DR;TL your post, make it shorter

Why?

I can make a new character and have him PvPing and killing people in less than 24 hours. Not only can I do this, but I already have. This is how my alt started his life. Before 24 hours were up I had killed 3 people and not lost any ships. Eventually I got cocky and died... twice. I did this to prove a point to someone saying exactly what you are saying.

People like you never get the hang of Eve, even after you have amazing skills and have been playing for years. Change your attitude. Don't spend all your time worrying about what you don't have, and start concentrating on using what you do have. Simple as that.

They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV.

They aren't short short is one hour not weeks.

I have not fallen in anything.

If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5

If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible

You need

Spaceship Command 5
Evasive Maneuvering 5

If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need

Frigate Skill Level 5

if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential

You need

Gun Skill 5
Gun Skill Specialization 5

If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible

You need

Gunnery 5
Rapid Firing 5

If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive

You need Acceleration control 5

If you want to handle over heating as best as possible

Thermodynamics 5


So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5, I mean I get you might not need it to kill somebody but your against players that have been playing for 10 years some of them already have these skills 5 and if you want to compete against them you have to do the same.

If you and friend run into a bear in the woods, you don't need to be the worlds fastest runner, just a faster runner than your friend. So always go to the woods with a fat friend.

Why does CCP discourage experimentation in EvE Online?

I don't understand the point in making skills take YEARS to train it's just not fun not being able to do what you want and just having nothing to do but sit in a station and wait for your skills to get to where you want to be so you can finally do what you want to do.

For example , a new player wants to PVP...
He/She realizes if he/she wants to do this as quickly as possible he/she is going to need to do so in a frigate first...
What frigate to choose? There are many and this game does a poor job preparing new players to play.
It all relies on other players and unofficial information and guides most of which aren't willing to assist new players but rather take advantage of them.
Already the player is overwhelmed and assaulted.
Most people wouldn't accept this level of bull.

Say this player decides to keep at it anyway.

Now the player has to wait...

and wait...

and wait...

and this is for a frigate... The player can only imagine a Battleship or a T3 Strategic Cruiser.

I guess my question is why does CCP keep the training times for basic skills needed to even attempt PVP or anything really at a decent level extremely hard to reach?

As new players they are "NEW" meaning they don't understand a lot of the games concepts and mechanics so why punish them with ridiculous training times while they experiment and learn how to play?

Why not make the skills needed for the frigates much more accessible and reasonable?
Instead of 9 days, why not back to the old 4 days? or hell 2 days would be even better? Or even less would be fantastic.

What is the purpose in not allowing the new players to really explore every thing New Eden has to offer at least at frigate level in a quick accessible fashion and once they've decided hey well I want to specialize in Exploration or Mining or whatever they choose then make the larger ships more difficult to obtain?

As it is right now...

it's backwards...

It takes longer to take full advantage of a Frigate and once you can you move to bigger ships quickly.

Instead of being able to take full advantage of a frigate quickly and then moving to the bigger ships in a slower fashion.

In order to take full advantage of a frigate you have to train a bunch of skills.

You need a bunch of different cap skills...
Gun Skills...
Navigation skills...
Thermodynamics...
+ Many More...

These take time to train and should be level 5 before moving to a bigger ship as when you move to the bigger ships these little differences in percentages translate to large differences.