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Why does CCP discourage experimentation in EvE Online?

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Vera Algaert Republic University Minmatar Republic 954	Posted - 2013.06.23 06:19:00 - [91] - Quote I tend to agree with OP - when I was in FW I could take almost any fight within my class confidently because I knew that I would be able to deal more damage, tank harder, overheat for longer than 95% of my opponents. Yes, any fitting has weaknesses but it's not like I wouldn't attempt to fix these if I felt it was necessary - skirmish links against kiting setups, info links against ecm boats, falcon against larger ships or groups, ... As a low SP player you have to rely on extremely gimmicky fittings which nobody in their right mind will ever engage and still hope that your enemy has poor skills. You'll spend hours looking for fights that you can win - whereas I can enter a fight I should lose and emerge victorious by virtue of Thermodynamics V and drugs.
Talon SilverHawk Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 610	Posted - 2013.06.23 07:26:00 - [92] - Quote This topic again, reading GD these days is like ground hog day .... waaaa its not fair I should be able to do what others have put more time into and effort into doing waaaaa Tal
TheButcherPete The James Gang SpaceMonkey's Alliance 255	Posted - 2013.06.23 08:03:00 - [93] - Quote You can spend untold billions on a new character and still suck. There's more to PVP than skillpoints. THE KING OF EVE RADIO ElQuirko is my son
Raven Solaris The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance 253	Posted - 2013.06.23 11:05:00 - [94] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: How am I trying to run before I crawl? I'm in a T1 Interceptor... It's one of the first ships you are allowed to use in the game. It has no tank... It's advantage is speed and maneuverability. In order to avoid being webbed which reduces my speed, something I don't want, I have to fight out at range. I have to stay fast so I have to use guns that can track well. T1 AMMO doesn't allow you to fight with weapons like that at the range of 16km unless its crap ammo that does no damage and will never break someones tank if they have one. My fit is going to be as follows. T2 Focused Pulse Lasers x3 Warp Disruption Tracking Disruption Microwarp Drive Damage Control 2 Velocity Mods x 2 Executioner, right? I think I see the problem, you've been smitten with Scorch. I wondered why you were so obsessed with t2 ammo. Pulse lasers are traditionally the close range lasers, Scorch just lets them be a bit silly at range. Try using Beams while you can only use t1 lasers. [Executioner, Newb kite] Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II Overdrive Injector System II Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Script Small Focused Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet S Small Focused Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet S Small Focused Modulated Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet S [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] (If someone want to yell at me about this, do so, Amarr ships are ironically not my specialty.) Decent dps at around the engagement window you wanted. It doesn't reach Scorch dps, but if you fit up a couple of these you should be able to learn how to use your fit while you train to specialize in it. You may even find you don't like it and want to do something else instead. Which will be fine because hey, it's not like you spent a week training t2 guns for it. That's what everyone was trying to tell you, you don't need the t2 guns to go out and have fun actually playing the game.
Karsa Egivand Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 224	Posted - 2013.06.23 11:33:00 - [95] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV. They aren't short short is one hour not weeks. I have not fallen in anything. If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5 If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible You need Spaceship Command 5 Evasive Maneuvering 5 If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need Frigate Skill Level 5 if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential You need Gun Skill 5 Gun Skill Specialization 5 If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible You need Gunnery 5 Rapid Firing 5 If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive You need Acceleration control 5 If you want to handle over heating as best as possible Thermodynamics 5 So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5, I mean I get you might not need it to kill somebody but your against players that have been playing for 10 years some of them already have these skills 5 and if you want to compete against them you have to do the same. Gee, I have been doing PvP (incl. solo) for years, and not one of my characters has all of these skills to lvl 5 (esp. the gun spec lvl5, which i almost always skip for some other new shiny skill). You actually HAVE fallen into that lvl5-mentality-trap you so casually dismiss. People here have been very helpful and constructive (I am actually surprised how little trolling and flaming there has been). Only an elite pvp char (like, for the Alliance Tournament) would absolutely need to have skills like Thermodynamics, Spaceship Command or the Gun specialisation skill at lvl 5... that is bonkers. Sure, it is nice to be able to overhead just a tad longer. And if you are OCD, you might welcome that additional 2% of damage... But we are talking effects of a few percentage points on one stat of your ships performance. It'll only be the deciding factor in one fight out of a hundred. Fights are lost in a myriad of ways, rarely is it balanced on a razors edge. Where you are wrong is in insisting that you HAVE to have those skills at lvl 5. You don't. And many pilots before you haven't had them. Many pilots you'll be fighting WONT have them. Oh sure, once in a blue moon you'll lose a fight that you might have won with better skills, but it won't be the deciding factor most of the time. Funnily, it is less of a deciding factor early on, because your real-life skills will be the deciding factor for your loss/wir more often, because the swings will be greater. And when you do a lot of PvP, you'll improve much more by actual learing stuff, then by the progress of your SP and getting those lvl 4s/5s. There are some ships where skill point matters more than others; I'd advise against drone-heavy setups until you have a decent grounding in drone skills, those are rather dependent on the SP invested (much more so than guns and missiles), please try to have an open mind and listen to the voice of experience. But i'd advise you to start pvp in T1 frigates and T1 cruisers and have fun. You neither need perfect skills (they all have some fitting room, much more so than T2 ships), nor should you wait for them (why wait?). After the recent T1 buffs, they are all quite competitive. T2 ships are usually more specialised and have much narrower set of conditions where they do well, more often than not, you should know what you are doing wtih them. T2 interceptors are a good example of a ship class that is not general purpose. (combat interceptors being better in a general role than fleet interceptors, yet still not a good choice for a beginner). Spread arount your SP until you have seen the various racial frigates (and destroyers) with the different T1 weapon systems. Fly them, lose them, get some kills. Then you'll be able to exclude some from your wishlist. Then do the same with T1 cruisers (minus some weapon/racial setups you start to dislike). Also specialise some in small T2 weapon systems you like. Only after you have a broad experience, start to truly specialize and chase skills like a specific gun specialisation beyond lvl 3.
NEONOVUS Saablast Followers 461	Posted - 2013.06.23 11:51:00 - [96] - Quote I support frigates being a 1x skill especially now that racial destroyer exists.
Jacob Holland Weyland-Vulcan Industries 168	Posted - 2013.06.23 12:37:00 - [97] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: I have not fallen in anything. If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5 If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible You need Spaceship Command 5 Evasive Maneuvering 5 But you don't need to fly at max speed, you need to fly fast enough to make your fit work... It is more than possible in fact, given that you're fitting an Executioner, to fly too fast - meaning that your guns don't track and you end up doing very little damage. You don't need "as much agility as possible", you need enough agility to keep your orbit speed where you need it to be at the distance you need to be at. Your executioner needs agility less than the close range, active tanked Atron you're trying to kill because he needs to outmanoeuvre you in order to do any damage at all. Adam Gamel wrote: If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need Frigate Skill Level 5 If you want to get full advantage then yes you would need the maximum available level of skill... and the maximum level of every related skill, and the right set of +6% and Pirate Implants, and a multilink command ship providing boosts - plus a couple of Titans in fleet also providing boosts (which is a heck of a long way to go to get the absolute maximum out of a T1 frigate... But (most importantly) you need the experience in the ship which has allowed you to learn the skills you need as a player to fly it to the absolute edge of its envelope. In fact, once you have that experience and player skill, everything else is gravy. The best way to acquire that experience, that player skill is to get out there, make hideous mistakes and learn from them - you will not acquire that vital experience by sitting in a station waiting for your skill queue to update. Adam Gamel wrote: if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential You need Gun Skill 5 Gun Skill Specialization 5 If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible You need Gunnery 5 Rapid Firing 5 Given that you're in a tank-free, kite Executioner I'm surprised you're worried about these... A slow bleed setup like that tends to slowly whittle away at the target's defences while ensuring that they can do nothing at all about it... (Although given the range on the Pulse, even with Scorch, it doesn't really work as you're far too close for comfort to overheated scram range). You aren't trying to kill something before your tank fails, your only concern is keeping your transversal high enough to avoid the target's response. Adam Gamel wrote: If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive You need Acceleration control 5 But again, you don't need to get the maximum out of your MWD, you just need to get enough out of it to make your fit work, you aren't trying to charge across two hundred clicks of open space to try to get the tackle and the warp-in on the sniper fleet, you only need enough to catch your prey before they can warp out. You might find yourself outrun by other kite set-ups but if they're running away then you've already won. Adam Gamel wrote: If you want to handle over heating as best as possible Thermodynamics 5 Which is relatively viable in a T3... But in most other ships you're only overheating for a short while anyway - you're cooking your MWD to get away from the fight you underestimated, you're cooking your disruptor for a cycle or two because your targets keep warping out just a moment before you can land it. It's highly unlikely that you're going to want to cook your guns - and you're going to want to do it even less with T2 guns as they burn out faster anyway... You're not going to need to overheat as a way of life - and you'll learn your target profiles more easily without overheating at all, for the odd incident where you need to turn something up to 11 Thermodynamics [1] is all you need and that's about an hour's worth of training.
Amarra Mandalin Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 683	Posted - 2013.06.23 14:11:00 - [98] - Quote The short version of these fine post is that someone will always be be bigger and/or better than you in the game, and/or may bring more alts/friends/drugs/off-grid boosters etc. When you get past this axiom and realize how many thousands of bad and mediocre PvPers there are, it's easy enough to see where it's not only possible, but likely, you'll win fights -- with the odds of success increasing the more experience and tactical knowledge you gain. And, of course, location/opportunity affects the odds. If experience and killboards aren't convincing enough for you, check out some of the PVP characters for sale. Not only do the majority not have LV V skills -- other than to meet fitting/flying requirement -- and usually core skills. You'll find a fair amount of ill-trained characters that need major work -- characters that often people PvP (successfully or not) with.
Jenn aSide STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries 2269	Posted - 2013.06.23 14:23:00 - [99] - Quote Tchaikovsky Makarov wrote: More crying about eve being a to long game? Well... i DR;TL your post, make it shorter It just doesn't make sens now. CCP not to long ago rebalanced the Cruisers into actually useful ships. If I had a dime for every Cruiers and "new" destoryer (damn you Talwar) roam that came through my space trying to kill me, i'd have......... a bunch of dimes. The "barrier" to entry into pvp is at it's lowest point in the histroy of EVE. usuable cruiers, destroyers, frigates that now kick as like only the rifter used to, Faction warfare, RvB, eveuni , even freaking allainces like goons still take in noobs with rifters and such etc etc. At yet these threads keep popping up. See that CCP? No matter how much you cater to certain types in the name of retaining new player, they will always want more. We like to believe that if we just lower barriers more people will play, and maybe some will, but most people won't enjoy anything harder than "push button, win prize".
Arduemont Rotten Legion Ops 1549	Posted - 2013.06.23 14:37:00 - [100] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: Why? I can make a new character and have him PvPing and killing people in less than 24 hours. Not only can I do this, but I already *have*. This is how my alt started his life. Before 24 hours were up I had killed 3 people and not lost any ships. Eventually I got cocky and died... twice. I did this to prove a point to someone saying exactly what you are saying. People like you never get the hang of Eve, even after you have amazing skills and have been playing for years. Change your attitude. Don't spend all your time worrying about what you don't have, and start concentrating on using what you do have. Simple as that. "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice."

Ghazu 609	Posted - 2013.06.23 16:49:00 - [101] - Quote Arduemont wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: Why? I can make a new character and have him PvPing and killing people in less than 24 hours. Not only can I do this, but I already *have*. This is how my alt started his life. Before 24 hours were up I had killed 3 people and not lost any ships. Eventually I got cocky and died... twice. I did this to prove a point to someone saying exactly what you are saying. People like you never get the hang of Eve, even after you have amazing skills and have been playing for years. Change your attitude. Don't spend all your time worrying about what you don't have, and start concentrating on using what you do have. Simple as that. lol preemptive tears best tears? wrong game for you op. http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
J3ssica Alba Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 830	Posted - 2013.06.23 18:33:00 - [102] - Quote good things come to people who wait ... instant gratification is in CoD thataway -> This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.-á Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Lugalbandak Anunnaku Industrial Corp. S2N Citizens 1	Posted - 2013.06.23 18:44:00 - [103] - Quote Is the reason i play eve already 7 years cause of the many skills and the long grind so to say.. There are plenty of mmos where you can be lvl 100 and in the "end game" within a half year.
Sergeant Dashing Eve Defence Force Tribal Band 2	Posted - 2013.06.23 18:56:00 - [104] - Quote +1 for a semi-constructive post on GD But eve is hard, and it needs to stay that way or it will die like wow is dying now Also eve isnt dying, retards
Seven Koskanaiken Clan Steel Wolves 211	Posted - 2013.06.23 19:05:00 - [105] - Quote Adam Gamel wrote: They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV. They aren't short short is one hour not weeks. I have not fallen in anything. If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5 If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible You need Spaceship Command 5 Evasive Maneuvering 5 If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need Frigate Skill Level 5 if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential You need Gun Skill 5 Gun Skill Specialization 5 If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible You need Gunnery 5 Rapid Firing 5 If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive You need Acceleration control 5 If you want to handle over heating as best as possible Thermodynamics 5 So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5, I mean I get you might not need it to kill somebody but your against players that have been playing for 10 years some of them already have these skills 5 and if you want to compete against them you have to do the same. If you and friend run into a bear in the woods, you don't need to be the worlds fastest runner, just a faster runner than your friend. So always go to the woods with a fat friend.
MEZZA Creire-Geng TEC-NOLOGY Test Alliance Please Ignore 5	Posted - 2013.06.23 19:26:00 - [106] - Quote Seven Koskanaiken wrote: Adam Gamel wrote: They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the GÇ£all to VGÇ¥ trap GÇö one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV. They aren't short short is one hour not weeks. I have not fallen in anything. If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5 If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible You need Spaceship Command 5 Evasive Maneuvering 5 If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need Frigate Skill Level 5 if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential You need Gun Skill 5 Gun Skill Specialization 5 If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible You need Gunnery 5 Rapid Firing 5 If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive You need Acceleration control 5 If you want to handle over heating as best as possible Thermodynamics 5 So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5, I mean I get you might not need it to kill somebody but your against players that have been playing for 10 years some of them already have these skills 5 and if you want to compete against them you have to do the same. If you and friend run into a bear in the woods, you don't need to be the worlds fastest runner, just a faster runner than your friend. So always go to the woods with a fat friend. he makes a good point eve is about picking fights and knowing which you'll win at. you'll get trolled for all kinda pvp actions and from my personal experence pvp is best in tech 1 s**t you dont care too much about against a enemy who feels the same. skill points does make a different, as does skill but there are corps such as brave newbies inc where 70 t1 frigs can kill any SP pimped out battleship.
Val'Dore PlanetCorp InterStellar 341	Posted - 2013.06.23 19:33:00 - [107] - Quote You can pvp effectively in any T1 frigate with less than 24 hours of training time. Will you be the penultimate frigmaster? No, but there is nothing stopping you from undocking and trying other than your own mental blocks. Star Jump Drive I invented Tiericide
I Accidentally YourShip My Other Capital Ship is Your Mom 183	Posted - 2013.06.23 19:59:00 - [108] - Quote And good riddance.
Grath Telkin Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 1637	Posted - 2013.06.23 23:53:00 - [109] - Quote ITT vets try to tell Adam what he's doing wrong and what he's confused on and he chooses to ignore all that and tell them he knows better.
Joan Greywind Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.06.24 06:21:00 - [110] - Quote mandatory, can i have your stuff?

Nycodemis National Institute of Mental Health 20	Posted - 2013.06.24 07:27:00 - [111] - Quote TL;DR - Part of experimentation is learning to do what you want with what you have. Not sitting in a Station/POS/Outpost with your thumbs in the shade and daydreaming about the day when you'll have it all. That day won't happen and in the meantime you've wasted time, money and many potential killmails. Adam Gamel wrote: Why does CCP discourage experimentation in EvE Online? I don't understand the point in making skills take YEARS to train it's just not fun not being able to do what you want and just having nothing to do but sit in a station and wait for your skills to get to where you want to be so you can finally do what you want to do. If you're sitting in a station waiting for skills to train, the problem is not with the game... it's the player. What you described is ignoring other opportunities and not trying to find other ways to do what you want. Adam Gamel wrote: For example , a new player wants to PVP... He/She realizes if he/she wants to do this as quickly as possible he/she is going to need to do so in a frigate first... What frigate to choose? There are many and this game does a poor job preparing new players to play. It all relies on other players and unofficial information and guides most of which aren't willing to assist new players but rather take advantage of them. Already the player is overwhelmed and assaulted. Most people wouldn't accept this level of bull. Stop... you just contradicted your first sentence. With all of the options available you could go out and gasp experiment. In one sentence you say CCP discourages experimentation. A few lines down you want CCP to spoon feed every detail and explain how things should be used. Also, if most people weren't willing to help new players, there wouldn't be nearly as much information or as many guides... that your statement shows you know is available. Some of the more well-known alliances specifically cater to newer players. Adam Gamel wrote: Say this player decides to keep at it anyway. Now the player has to wait... and wait... and wait... and this is for a frigate... The player can only imagine a Battleship or a T3 Strategic Cruiser. I guess my question is why does CCP keep the training times for basic skills needed to even attempt PVP or anything really at a decent level extremely hard to reach? As new players they are "NEW" meaning they don't understand a lot of the games concepts and mechanics so why punish them with ridiculous training times while they experiment and learn how to play? Why not make the skills needed for the frigates much more accessible and reasonable? Instead of 9 days, why not back to the old 4 days? or hell 2 days would be even better? Or even less would be fantastic. What is the purpose in not allowing the new players to really explore every thing New Eden has to offer at least at frigate level in a quick accessible fashion and once they've decided hey well I want to specialize in Exploration or Mining or whatever they choose then make the larger ships more difficult to obtain? As it is right now... it's backwards... It takes longer to take full advantage of a Frigate and once you can you move to bigger ships quickly. Instead of being able to take full advantage of a frigate quickly and then moving to the bigger ships in a slower fashion. In order to take full advantage of a frigate you have to train a bunch of skills. You need a bunch of different cap skills... Gun Skills... Navigation skills... Thermodynamics... + Many More... These take time to train and should be level 5 before moving to a bigger ship as when you move to the bigger ships these little differences in percentages translate to large differences. Are you nuts? People don't actually wait until all of that is at lvl 5 before engaging in PvP. Yes, skills help in PvP, but you can point someone in a rookie ship with a scram on day one. Are you going to die? Probably. Are you going to get kills solo in a noob ship? Doubtful, though even a noob ship is more effective than station sitting and having no initiative. It's a game. If you can't undock and try to have fun with out perfect skills then there are many other games available... and please leave quickly. What you've described is the last thing we need wasting processing time on TQ. This is not my main. My main has ~84mil SP... and still doesn't have L5 in everything you suggested. In many things, yes. Hell, I just trained for T2 MWD last month. Sad, I know, but it wasn't necessary. I've had 100% efficiency for about the past 1600 days. Choosing your fights, friends and tactics wisely will serve you better than anything in the skill tree. Happy Hunting and Pod Speed.
Yummy Chocolate Biohazard. 879	Posted - 2013.06.24 07:37:00 - [112] - Quote tl;dr version: Training Skills, Please Wait... [\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|\|...........................................................] >9,001 d remaining... Alternatively: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZp02ON-sTI
Muad 'dib The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos 1152	Posted - 2013.06.24 08:33:00 - [113] - Quote Specialisation is the key to eve and remember you have 3 alt slots. Roll chars for specific purposes like hauling or missioning etc in regards to their attributes. No ones forcing you to do everything on one char, that does take significantly longer. Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.


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