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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
2522
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Posted - 2013.06.29 05:11:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:DJ JazzyJeff wrote:Yes lets make it so you cannot target people within 50 km of a gate or station. Or we can just make the entirety of New Eden high sec. That sounds like a great idea that would not make this game any less fun at all. Let's start renovating. Hay GOON! Go to D4KU-5. TEST is always camping Hophib talking smack
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DSpite Culhach
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
120
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Posted - 2013.06.29 07:51:00 -
[92] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: There's a good reason gate camps operate the way that they do, from my direct experience:
(1) You have to successfully tackle a target to see what's inside it. It takes longer to do a scan and check than it does to simply blow up the target and find out, and it's not any easier to do it.
(2) People aren't always super truthful about how much ISk they have to pay things like ransoms. And they're generally not willing to pay at all, meaning the pirates will have wasted everybody's time to trying to follow your suggestion
(3) Other people may come along at any time and interrupt the proceedings
(4) You'd be amazed at the valuables people will move through lo-sec in hilariously unsuitable ships. Yes even noobships.
What it boils down to is: the optimal strategy is to explode whatever you catch, check the wreck and wait for the next guy. Complaining about pirates doing this is about as useful as complaining about mission runners blitzing for LP.
Pretty much this,
I'm fairly green at all this, but if I and some mates decided to go hunt people, I'm pretty sure that it would boil down to finding them on gates.
Anyone see any major issues in having player constructed jumpbridges? Did'nt CCP show some screenshots of player constructed gates at one stage? Or was that idea to possibly bridge to NEW areas in space?
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
Kraal Utrecht
Running with Knives Nexus Fleet
10
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Posted - 2013.06.29 08:30:00 -
[93] - Quote
So at the moment we have tunel travel and what some ppl propose is slingshot travel. In (probably) Sins of the Solar Empire strategic game - to travel between systems player had to select destined system and reach current systems boundaries to execute jump procedure. It would be hard to do it here due to no 'go to point in space' command (only go to object/bookmark) so going out of system would still be through gates but arriving could be anywhere at border of destined system with for example 200km (or more?) accuracy from currently destined gate. Also in SotSE travel took some time while in EVE it is instant.
So lets say even 200km accuracy (sphere of radius 200km from destined gate) - great! Safe on jump in for single ship... but what about fleet? Suddenly fleet is scattered in space of about 32000000km3. So even more advantage for gatecampers. Well that could be dealt partially by additional fleet command - Fleetjump... This could eventually lead to lowering gates significance for fleets if we add jumpdrives to some capitalships that could in some way act as a gate... Homeworld-like fleet warp-jump anyone?
*Replacement system for gates? Combining few ideas that already popped out in few space themed games (for example mentioned SotSE above) should not be that revolutionary. I would support removing gates if this would not mean no piracy, but instead would require some activity and planning instead just using bots to quick-target and execute modules or like some crazy psycho looking at screen hardly blinking to not loose precious seconds when someone jumps in. On other side - now you kinda know/predict where enemy may be. Without it you should expect enemy everywhere. But seeing how much EVE grew around X3 universe/ideas - gates were, are and will be.
I personally would like to see Homeworld-like movement system - just a wishful thinking.
CCP - Why You No Take Good Ideas From Older Games?! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10435
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Posted - 2013.06.29 08:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:People whine about not enough people in low and null. Then they whine about altering travel mechanics to make it a bit simpler to travel in those areas.
Travel mechanics aren't the issue. People with no idea how they work whining for changes which they don't understand the implications of is.
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10435
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Posted - 2013.06.29 08:55:00 -
[95] - Quote
Dorrann wrote:Malcanis wrote:Dorrann wrote:Gates are fine. Camps are the issue. Campers blow up everything they are able to catch and kill, regardless of value, be that Isk or Tactical. IF campers took the time to scan a ship to see if it had anything worth the ammo of killing and released those ships that did not, then you might see some decent gameplay. However, there is always the Killmail Value and Bragging Rights, and aslong as those things carry any kind of weight, gate camps will remain until there is a better/easier way for the campers to get their jollies.
The problem here isnt the mechanics, its the nature of the human animal. There's a good reason gate camps operate the way that they do, from my direct experience: (1) You have to successfully tackle a target to see what's inside it. It takes longer to do a scan and check than it does to simply blow up the target and find out, and it's not any easier to do it. (2) People aren't always super truthful about how much ISk they have to pay things like ransoms. And they're generally not willing to pay at all, meaning the pirates will have wasted everybody's time to trying to follow your suggestion (3) Other people may come along at any time and interrupt the proceedings (4) You'd be amazed at the valuables people will move through lo-sec in hilariously unsuitable ships. Yes even noobships. What it boils down to is: the optimal strategy is to explode whatever you catch, check the wreck and wait for the next guy. Complaining about pirates doing this is about as useful as complaining about mission runners blitzing for LP. All valid points, and I accept all of them. I'm not actually complaining about the camps, just suggesting an alternative and looking at the reasons for the current situation. I dont realistically expect CCP to make any changes to this as the Low/Null players would light up like Guy Fawkes. The "optimal strategy" for short term profit is as you say, shoot now ask questions later, but long term, if you want to make Low/Null more populous, the current strategy will not achieve that any time soon. You can howl all you like for nerfing of HighSec, but past history shows removing things from High just pushes people to be more efficient at using whats left to them, because the other option of Low/Null is not what they are willing to buy into. From my position, I can see that theres lots of desire to bring more people in to Low/Null, but realistically speaking, if the first thing that happens upon entering low sec is your ship exploding, youre not too likely to want to go back in. IF the Low/Null community gave new fish a chance to get established, more of them would stay and more fights would ensue, in my opinion anyway.
You're making some very shaky assumptions in your post. I'll list a few of them.
(1) You're assuming that everyone in lo/null wants more people in lo/null (wrong)
(2) You're assuming that theese people who are wanted are unaffiliated strangers, rather than members of the groups already there (very wrong indeed).
(3) You're assuming that there aren't already viable ways to avoid gatecamps (extremely wrong)
(4) You're assuming that I'm "howling" for the nerfing of hi-sec. This is particularly wrong..
(5) You are assuming that the only way to get people into low/0.0 is to make it mechanically more like hi-sec.
In short: nobody in 0.0 wants people to move from hi-ec to 0.0 if the price is making 0.0 more like hi-sec. It's best if the people who like hi-sec stay in hi-sec and the people who want to move to 0.0 put in the minimal effort required learn how to operate in 0.0 rather than spend far more effort in "howling" for changes.
1 Kings 12:11
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Rico Minali
The Straw Men
1288
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Posted - 2013.06.29 10:52:00 -
[96] - Quote
Sadly in Eve 99% of pvp is at gates or stations due to how everything works. To stop this ccp would have to get rid of gates and allow free travel some way Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS CODE.
8
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Posted - 2013.06.29 11:03:00 -
[97] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Only way to get rid of gate camps is to do away with the blob warfare, as a way to encourage small gang PvP (which should be the main PvP fare as it encourages having fun with your RL friends).
But the main problem is the cost to PvP is so high. Want more PvP and even attract more PvErs to engage in it here and there, the price for it has to come down. With the inflation in the game (100% ratio in 3 years), that's not going to happen anytime soon. Good news! Viable PVP ships cost less than a million ISK to fit. 5 million if it's T2 fitted. Gogo! |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
321
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Posted - 2013.06.29 11:03:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Posting in a ' I want this sandbox to be limited to how I play the game' thread.
Hey, that already happens with these big bloc alliances and their influencing.
If the big bloc alliances can do it, well, the little blocs can too. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
321
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Posted - 2013.06.29 11:11:00 -
[99] - Quote
Sir Mack Inawrex wrote:Good news! Viable PVP ships cost less than a million ISK to fit. 5 million if it's T2 fitted. Gogo!
Viable webbers/scramblers (since weapon/defense/core skills are going to take a whopping 600 days to level to 4-5, with implants+attributes).
Yeah, I saw it all in null. Guys without the skills happy to be carried (because that is what it is when you can't carry your own weight and be a full part of the team). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Malcolm Shinhwa
Suns Of Korhal Terran Commonwealth
67
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Posted - 2013.06.29 13:19:00 -
[100] - Quote
Kyle Maltese wrote:It baffles me why, in the context of the universe and game, that an enterprising corporation hasn't developed some kind of probe that deployed through the jump gate, scans the other side of the gate, then jumps back through.
It would provide a way to scout a gate, but say that it required a few seconds on the other side to do the scan, and there was the potential to destroy it. It seems like a perfectly valid idea.
Enterprising corps have already done this. Its called your corpmate in the fast frigate. I have 5 different chars that I play. This may be my main, or maybe not. I have no idea. |
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Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
6831
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Posted - 2013.06.29 13:43:00 -
[101] - Quote
So i did some research and found that gatecamps can be beaten!
It seems if u put a cyno on ur ship, and keep anything from 1-5 vindicators and 6 guardians on a bridge, u can kill them all and do evveryone a favour.
Lrn2play |
Djana Libra
DAB Black Legion.
250
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Posted - 2013.06.29 13:50:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:Only way to get rid of gate camps is to do away with the blob warfare, as a way to encourage small gang PvP (which should be the main PvP fare as it encourages having fun with your RL friends).
But the main problem is the cost to PvP is so high. Want more PvP and even attract more PvErs to engage in it here and there, the price for it has to come down. With the inflation in the game (100% ratio in 3 years), that's not going to happen anytime soon.
stop trying to fund anything with lvl 1 missions, it's dirt cheap to pvp, too damn cheap actually. and your inflation is quite off, income rose more than the inflation (anyone remember having to mine a month in a cruiser to make enough to get a battleship)
If the cost is to high your isk making is bad or you fly the wrong ships. |
Krazynikomo
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
67
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Posted - 2013.06.29 14:41:00 -
[103] - Quote
OP lost an empty Ibis and a pod with no implants to a gatecamp, and started this thread. http://zkillboard.com/detail/26316716/ http://zkillboard.com/detail/26316751/
I'd have to lose at least like, a Tengu or something before I'd get this russled. |
Adunh Slavy
1060
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Posted - 2013.06.29 15:07:00 -
[104] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Travel mechanics aren't the issue. People with no idea how they work whining for changes which they don't understand the implications of is.
Says you. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2386
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Posted - 2013.06.29 19:31:00 -
[105] - Quote
Gealbhan wrote:Gate camps are an integral part of EvE Online. Nothing more needs to be said.
They weren't always and every time I point this out I get a slammed but I'll say this again.
In the early days of Eve there wasn't anything that could survive the gate guns, then ships evolved and now gate guns mostly kill new players that don't understand how they work. Gate guns no longer serve any practical purpose.
So why doesn't CCP evolve the guns or just remove them, because right now they have no useful purpose? CCP thought once combat was supposed to be somewhere other than low sec gates but now doesn't seem to care. CCP recently floated a suggestion to fiddle the guns (which I supported) but the vocal minority (already prepping for rants about that comment) got CCP to back down.
So now I say "CCP, fix the guns or take them out all together!"
Issler |
Gealbhan
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
373
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Posted - 2013.06.29 21:02:00 -
[106] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Gealbhan wrote:Gate camps are an integral part of EvE Online. Nothing more needs to be said. They weren't always and every time I point this out I get a slammed but I'll say this again. In the early days of Eve there wasn't anything that could survive the gate guns, then ships evolved and now gate guns mostly kill new players that don't understand how they work. Gate guns no longer serve any practical purpose. So why doesn't CCP evolve the guns or just remove them, because right now they have no useful purpose? CCP thought once combat was supposed to be somewhere other than low sec gates but now doesn't seem to care. CCP recently floated a suggestion to fiddle the guns (which I supported) but the vocal minority (already prepping for rants about that comment) got CCP to back down. So now I say "CCP, fix the guns or take them out all together!" Issler
I remember the "if you can't tank them, gate guns gonna rip you apart" debates. Even back then people were asling for gate guns to be buffed, personally I'm kind of 50/50 on the idea. By how much should they be buffed and how? more damage, faster firing, faster lock and range? Maybe add nos batteries to gates?
idk just throwing random thoughts out. |
SmokinDank
Horizon Research Group
6
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Posted - 2013.06.29 21:08:00 -
[107] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Gealbhan wrote:Gate camps are an integral part of EvE Online. Nothing more needs to be said. They weren't always and every time I point this out I get a slammed but I'll say this again. In the early days of Eve there wasn't anything that could survive the gate guns, then ships evolved and now gate guns mostly kill new players that don't understand how they work. Gate guns no longer serve any practical purpose. So why doesn't CCP evolve the guns or just remove them, because right now they have no useful purpose? CCP thought once combat was supposed to be somewhere other than low sec gates but now doesn't seem to care. CCP recently floated a suggestion to fiddle the guns (which I supported) but the vocal minority (already prepping for rants about that comment) got CCP to back down. So now I say "CCP, fix the guns or take them out all together!" Issler
In the early days of Eve the sentry guns weren't there. After they were added, they were always able to be tanked. You don't know much about how they used to work it seems. |
Bruce Kemp
Autarky The Autonomy
48
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Posted - 2013.06.29 21:34:00 -
[108] - Quote
This is some of the most funnest **** i have ever heard. |
Alaric Faelen
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
127
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Posted - 2013.06.29 22:31:00 -
[109] - Quote
Show me on the doll where the gate campers touched your industrial..........
It's ambush at a chokepoint- sort of a fundamental of warfare. Wouldn't want our war too much like the real thing, would we?
I find camping anything boring as heck. Just not my preferred style, but certainly one I engage in when it's beneficial. Most everyone I know vastly prefers to roam. But roams are 'meeting engagements' and difficult to control the various factors in. Camping is a force multiplier, allowing small gangs to inflict vast damage, even if only to deny gate travel.
To not use static camps at known chokepoints would be stupid.
That said, I have no use for smartbombing gate camping. That is the height of cowardice to me. At least have the guts to lock a target and take your chances....if there were any camping mechanic I'd address, it would be that. Beyond that- meh, you deal with gates one at a time. Do your map recon before undocking. Keep up on intel. PLAY the game in other words. |
Adunh Slavy
1060
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Posted - 2013.06.29 22:51:00 -
[110] - Quote
Alaric Faelen wrote:Show me on the doll where the gate campers touched your industrial..........
It's ambush at a chokepoint- sort of a fundamental of warfare. Wouldn't want our war too much like the real thing, would we?
Realistic warfare? Are you kidding? It's space, the largest expanse imaginable and we have LOL choke points. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
336
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Posted - 2013.06.29 23:26:00 -
[111] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Alaric Faelen wrote:Show me on the doll where the gate campers touched your industrial..........
It's ambush at a chokepoint- sort of a fundamental of warfare. Wouldn't want our war too much like the real thing, would we?
Realistic warfare? Are you kidding? It's space, the largest expanse imaginable and we have LOL choke points.
We have lolchokepoints precisely because it is space. You know, the whole warp gate thing? Otherwise it would all be one big system clogged full of people. The very nature of the session change neccesitates this.
Trying to argue against gatecamps by saying "It's in space"? Not working for you. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Verunae Caseti
Viziam Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2013.06.29 23:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Realistic warfare? Are you kidding? It's space, the largest expanse imaginable and we have LOL choke points.
It's a game, mate. Games require limitations to be interesting. Especially multiplayer games in which it is somewhat important for the overall experience that players occasionally bump into one another.
How interesting would chess be on an board sized infinity x infinity? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
10449
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 23:59:00 -
[113] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Gealbhan wrote:Gate camps are an integral part of EvE Online. Nothing more needs to be said. They weren't always and every time I point this out I get a slammed but I'll say this again. In the early days of Eve there wasn't anything that could survive the gate guns, then ships evolved and now gate guns mostly kill new players that don't understand how they work. Gate guns no longer serve any practical purpose. So why doesn't CCP evolve the guns or just remove them, because right now they have no useful purpose? CCP thought once combat was supposed to be somewhere other than low sec gates but now doesn't seem to care. CCP recently floated a suggestion to fiddle the guns (which I supported) but the vocal minority (already prepping for rants about that comment) got CCP to back down. So now I say "CCP, fix the guns or take them out all together!" Issler
Gateguns kill interceptors and other frigates pretty fast. If you can't see how this has an effect on camps, I suggest you try being a pirate for a month.
1 Kings 12:11
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Adunh Slavy
1062
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Posted - 2013.06.30 00:09:00 -
[114] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: We have lolchokepoints precisely because it is space. You know, the whole warp gate thing? Otherwise it would all be one big system clogged full of people. The very nature of the session change neccesitates this.
Trying to argue against gatecamps by saying "It's in space"? Not working for you.
I Call BS. Session changes do not necessitate a jump gate. Programmatically, all a jump gate is, is a GUI element. That is all event driven design requires. It could be a gate or a giant pink pony bouncing across your screen.
The only argument that holds any water is that "it would be too hard to find other people". That however is easily over come with functions that already exist in the game. A few changes to how we interact with them, and there would be as much if not more non-consensual PVP.
Sorry it is too difficult for some of you to imagine any possible alternatives. |
Adunh Slavy
1062
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Posted - 2013.06.30 00:17:00 -
[115] - Quote
Verunae Caseti wrote:
How interesting would chess be on a board sized infinity x infinity?
It would be very interesting, because to win, you still have to place the king in check mate. Now you for one moment do a little bit of thinking and imagine a chess board of infinite squares. Just how are you going to defend your king and attack the other? Sure you can go as far away as you want, but you still have to achieve your objectives and defend your king.
There's an old axiom, if it is important enough to defend, then it is important enough to attack.
Think about it instead of falling back on these old canards. Canards that keep Eve in the 90s. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
336
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 00:22:00 -
[116] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: We have lolchokepoints precisely because it is space. You know, the whole warp gate thing? Otherwise it would all be one big system clogged full of people. The very nature of the session change neccesitates this.
Trying to argue against gatecamps by saying "It's in space"? Not working for you.
I Call BS. Session changes do not necessitate a jump gate. Programmatically, all a jump gate is, is a GUI element. That is all event driven design requires. It could be a gate or a giant pink pony bouncing across your screen. The only argument that holds any water is that "it would be too hard to find other people". That however is easily over come with functions that already exist in the game. A few changes to how we interact with them, and there would be as much if not more non-consensual PVP. Sorry it is too difficult for some of you to imagine any possible alternatives.
Okie dokie, there are possible alternatives, but none of them are viable in any way, shape, or form.
So let's say you had to be at the edge of the system to warp to another one, ok? Well, first of all, how do you define this?
Second, how do you GET THERE?
You can't just warp to a point in space. There has to be something there to warp to, or you would have to have put a bookmark. Because given the distances involved it would take you about 30 years to slowboat there, so it has to be warp.
So unless they are going to populate every grid along the circumference of every system in the damn game (this is impossible, btw), there will still be chokepoints.
What you are saying is quite simply not possible in the game. Sorry that it's too hard to see the flaws in an obviously weak argument. Don't let your mouth write checks your knowledge of the subject can't cash. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Adunh Slavy
1062
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Posted - 2013.06.30 00:52:00 -
[117] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Okie dokie, there are possible alternatives, but none of them are viable in any way, shape, or form.
Out of all the possibilities, you've examined them all have you? All the infinite possibilities that exist, you've examined them all, right. I get to call BS again.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So let's say you had to be at the edge of the system to warp to another one, ok? Well, first of all, how do you define this?
Second, how do you GET THERE?
Are you so unimaginative that you can't think of 100 possible ways someone could code that into the Eve GUI? LOL. Come on man, you're not that daft, surely. Here let me help, "When user does X, do Y". Ok now add random words to X and Y, and like the preverbal monkey typing Shakespeare, you'll come up with something.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: You can't just warp to a point in space. There has to be something there to warp to, or you would have to have put a bookmark. Because given the distances involved it would take you about 30 years to slowboat there, so it has to be warp.
LOL, man you are so inside the box it is not even funny. Well I did type "LOL" so, sorry, it is funny.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: So unless they are going to populate every grid along the circumference of every system in the damn game (this is impossible, btw), there will still be chokepoints.
What you are saying is quite simply not possible in the game. Sorry that it's too hard to see the flaws in an obviously weak argument. Don't let your mouth write checks your knowledge of the subject can't cash.
Here let me give you a hint ... ever heard of combat probes? Imagine if they were not needed, and instead your directional scanner always gave you a warpable result that was sure to get you closer to the target. It may not get you right on the target, but you're sure to get closer. And as you get closer and as you narrow the focus of the DS, the more accurate the result would be.
Any ideas dawning on you yet? No probably not because all you can come up with is stupid cliches. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
336
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 01:19:00 -
[118] - Quote
Quote:Are you so unimaginative that you can't think of 100 possible ways someone could code that into the Eve GUI? LOL. Come on man, you're not that daft, surely. Here let me help, "When user does X, do Y". Ok now add random words to X and Y, and like the preverbal monkey typing Shakespeare, you'll come up with something.
If you think coding a three dimensional movement model works like this, then you are a fool.
And there is no point in trying to convince someone who does not possess the capacity to understand the truth. I apologize for overestimating you thusly.
We're done. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Adunh Slavy
1062
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 01:30:00 -
[119] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If you think coding a three dimensional movement model works like this, then you are a fool.
And there is no point in trying to convince someone who does not possess the capacity to understand the truth. I apologize for overestimating you thusly.
We're done.
ROFL, and you've just proven that you're absolutely clueless. A jump gate in Jita could send a player to any system in Eve, it doesn't care where that system is in relation to the jump gate. If you think it has to, then you're frankly an idiot. |
Pewty McPew
EVE Corporation 2357451
306
|
Posted - 2013.06.30 02:37:00 -
[120] - Quote
Majindoom Shi wrote: Maybe add lvl 6 agent to low to draw people into system and engage them at the site. Like i said I don't know how to pull this off but gate camps are boring and lame there needs to be a lot more options for pvp
Syre lets add more missions that require even more shiny faction officer modded pimped out PVE ships for the gankers to eliminate.
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