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Ice mining Solution Ebil Macro miners.... I got it....no really I have

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Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 10:39:00 - [1] Ok, it seems to me that the worst problem with macro minining is the ice belts. Just look in the Jita Ice belts 99% macro mining. The problem with ice, is that it doesn't deplete, or move and you don't need to jet can mine as you can fill your cargo ...warp to st...unload...warp back to bm for another load. I've seen this trend happening now. My solution is to take ice belts out of 0.4 and up. Only have Npc's sell it in empire. Ice is needed a lot due to all the pos's so is an everlasting supply of isk for the macro miners. No risk ..no work needed. Take the ice away form empire and you would have messed up their macro mining ops. Let Npc's sell it and you won't hurt the pos people. Only let it be mined in 0.3 and below, try mining ice there macro heads he he.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.27 10:44:00 - [2] just allow us to shoot em quite simple any characters over 1 month old anytime they go into a NPC corp they get 80% tax rate (will force players into player corps or just stuff up MMs anyway_
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 10:46:00 - [3] I think this would be a good solution as it only harms macro miners, no one mines ice these days.
Hellspawn01	Posted - 2005.11.27 10:47:00 - [4] Originally by: Martin Gore I think this would be a good solution as it only harms macro miners, no one mines ice these days. Why are they mining only ice then? There must be some value left. ------ BlogÖ
Scyrdein	Posted - 2005.11.27 10:47:00 - [5] Originally by: sonofollo just allow us to shoot em quite simple any characters over 1 month old anytime they go into a NPC corp they get 80% tax rate (will force players into player corps or just stuff up MMs anyway_ What is a problem for macrominer to create it`s own corp, huh? :)
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.27 10:59:00 - [6] well tbh quite a few have created player corps (im about to issue a war dec on one ive been tracking for some time) and they have moved onto mining kernite in 0.6 - 0.7 (isogen is the big money value) as i said all NPC corp members that cant be dec'd on after 1 month of player players should be in a player corp anyway (CCP multiplayer angle) those that arent automatic 80% corp tax and if someone comes out of a corp same thing unitl they create or join another 80% NPC Corp tax
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:03:00 - [7] Originally by: Hellspawn01 Originally by: Martin Gore I think this would be a good solution as it only harms macro miners, no one mines ice these days. Why are they mining only ice then? There must be some value left. I mean't no real person does...only machine macro's.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:10:00 - [8] well no real players mine ice in jita do they (the profit margin on such basic ice just ain there for most players)
kurtz abraham	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:11:00 - [9] Originally by: Martin Gore Ok, it seems to me that the worst problem with macro minining is the ice belts. Just look in the Jita Ice belts 99% macro mining. The problem with ice, is that it doesn't deplete, or move and you don't need to jet can mine as you can fill your cargo ...warp to st...unload...warp back to bm for another load. I've seen this trend happening now. My solution is to take ice belts out of 0.4 and up. Only have Npc's sell it in empire. Ice is needed a lot due to all the pos's so is an everlasting supply of isk for the macro miners. No risk ..no work needed. Take the ice away form empire and you would have messed up their macro mining ops. Let Npc's sell it and you won't hurt the pos people. Only let it be mined in 0.3 and below, try mining ice there macro heads he he. I mine ice in empire, LOTS of ice. I am however very lucky not to be affected by macros as I fill monthly contracts which include delivery. The Macros that are mining ice in empire are the problem why nobody mines ice for the market these days, getting rid of ice in empire is not the solution, getting rid of the macros that mine ice is. Get rid of them... the price of ice will go back to the rate it used to be at and real players will start mining ice again, as it is it is much more profitable to mine common ores, I am afraid to say though that with the rapid rise of isk farmers and macros mining ore it will soon be more profitable to go rat hunting in empire belts. I am sure CCP are doing all they can to get rid of macros without resorting to draconian solutions such as this, I can however understand your anger that made you resort to thinking up this solution as every time I log in these days I see these people and nearly every system you pass through has random text string names in the local window.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:14:00 - [10] well lets hope those that are behind these nasty little bots continue to have their bots take any can in range (esp with the take and replace method that will become useful in RMR) then just shooting em up. This should at leats disrupt their invasion of eve hehe
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:16:00 - [11] THE REAL SOLUTION IS PUT ALL TRAIL NON PAYING ACCOUNTS ON A SCALED DOWN SERVER IE MAXIMUM 500 SYSTEMS KEEP ALL THE 15000 TRIAL ACCOUNTS THERE AND WHEN THEY ARE READY TO PAY TO PLAY THEN THEY CAN RESTART AS NOOBS ON TQ. THIS WILL HAVE SEVERAL RELIEF ELEMENTS - THOSE MACRO MINERS WILL HAVE TO PAY MONTHLY ACCOUNT FEES REDUCING THE PROFITABILITY AND AT LEAST PUTTING MONEY IN SHOULD THEY CHOOSE TO RUN THE RISK OF GETTING CAUGHT THE TRIAL SERVER COULD HAVE A) BE FREE BUT LIMITED TO DESTROYERS AND B) MAKE SURE THAT NO ITEMS CAN BE TRANSFERRED TO TQ C) PLAYERS THAT WANT TO ONPLAY WILL HAVE TO START AGAIN AND PAY UPFRONT THIS IS A MUCH MORE MANDAINE SOLUTION THAT WILL HELP.
Galk	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:20:00 - [12] Edited by: Galk on 27/11/2005 11:22:48 Originally by: sonofollo any characters over 1 month old anytime they go into a NPC corp they get 80% tax rate (will force players into player corps or just stuff up MMs anyway_ This will only hurt inocent players. Your suggestion is very stupid, and ccp will never addopt that. I don't belive i actualy need to give you a reply as to why, only to point it out. edit* And your last reply is just as short sighted, 'trial server' that negates 90% of the games content... OK...... ----------- When they asked me if i knew you, id smile and say you were a friend of mine.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:25:00 - [13] Ok well there is a big problem with alts anyway any player with corp 1 skill can start their own corp - please list the problems u speak of (ok alt spies well they would have to be in a corp or inactive) im in favour of nerfing alts 100% but that wont happen so a 80% corp tax for players older than 1 month old in NPC corps The alternative totally seperate to help deal with macro miners and mining sweatshops - farmers is to remove all trial accounts to a seperate free server of 500 systems maximum (im sure CCP could just rejig a few nodes) this would reduce empire lag to just paying players on tq. trail accounts 100% seperate (items characters and ISK) cannot be trasnferred over to tq players can try the game if they like they can pay to play on the real deal after 14 days (quite reasonable suggestion i think many other MMOs do it) and then at least the macro miners or the ppl behind them would be paying $15 US a month for each character thereby cutting their motivation via trial accoutns in mining and also alt usage in that regard
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:27:00 - [14] I dropped by Jita last night in a shuttle to check out the prices, and the price on white glaze has fallen to 50% in less than 2 weeks. How can dedicated miners compete with that? I have no idea, and it made me wonder why I care to play this game. Right now, the only ones damaged by the macroing and Ebay sales, are those who play the game by the rules. Sad state or affairs this is. How the flagging is going to help agains macrominers, I cant see. The hauler/miner will have to open a can that does not belong to them, and actually confirm the pop-up dialogbox, which will most likely never happen. If these players have to rewrite the macro to compensate for the changes with RMR, I seriously doubt they will rewrite so it makes them vulnerable to this simple move. As a proffessional miner by trade, I want to obliterate these guys. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Galk	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:37:00 - [15] Not everybody in a npc corp is a) an alt b) a macro user. Shallow perception if you belive that they are, ccp know that also, why your idea is totaly wrong, and it goes nowhere. The problem is people exploiting trial accounts, kinda tricky because stoping of the current system and moving trial accounts to one side and placing restrictions you mention will degrade the experience of the perfectly valid trial user. That id imagine is ccp's current dilemma. ----------- When they asked me if i knew you, id smile and say you were a friend of mine.
boubou bzh	Posted - 2005.11.27 11:58:00 - [16] about your 80% taxe rate.... they just have to give the mining product to another guy, and on this way, they are not affected.. so, not a good way, i think. ********************************************* carpe diem / no more playing for some times. *********************************************
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:11:00 - [17] I know a few real ice miners would lose out, but who mines ice for profit anyway.... it's dropped in price so much latly that it's not worth it. I would say a huge amount of ebay source money comes from ice mining and the increase in need for pos fuel. The amount of ice miners has gone up a silly amount the past month. Kill the ice miners...kill a lot of the macro miners profit.
Ralitge boyter	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:13:00 - [18] How about a combination of the following two solutions. Make the EVE client identify it self with a unique hash created from several system variables, this way when a user is banned this computer cannot be used again by macro users. (should help CCP a lot) Sure some internet cafe's might get upset but then again they would simply be told to police their systems better or risk a permanent ban (3 strikes and you are out) Then CCP should make a new group NOT GM's who have no GM powers but are able to do the analisis for the GM's and when they reach the conclusion a user is really using a macro these users call in a GM to make a final check of the colected data and decide upon the faith of the susspected account. This way we have several solutions one the GM's have more time on their hands and do not need to look at macro miners until they have a 99% sure macro miner on their hands, and instead of banning the IP or something stupid like that the computers that are used get banned. This will make the macro miners life very very difficult indeed as they can come back (the 3 strike system) but they are instandly identified as someone who needs to get a little extra attention. Should the user make the same mistake again they get kicked again and after time 3 they simply do not come back anymore. Of course the macro miners can reinstall EVE but the system variables will stay the same and thus they will stay banned. So they will have to make changes to their computer after every ban this should make them think a few hundred times about the profitibility of macroing in EVE. Of course the group that can do these checkes needs to be of sufficient size and should be kept in check by the GM's as here the same rules should apply abuse your powers and you get a warning continue to to so and you will be kicked from the group and striped of your powers. the trail accounts should stay and they should stay on TQ but CCP should make the client identify it self for every PC that way they can simply ban a computer instead of an account. ------------------------------------------- Should you disagree with me, well I guess that is because I disagree with you. If you have a problem with that please feel free not to tell me.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:23:00 - [19] How would they get pc hardware info though?
Kharakan	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:41:00 - [20] Originally by: Scyrdein Originally by: sonofollo just allow us to shoot em quite simple any characters over 1 month old anytime they go into a NPC corp they get 80% tax rate (will force players into player corps or just stuff up MMs anyway_ What is a problem for macrominer to create it`s own corp, huh? :) Because if a macro mining bunch create their own corp, we can war dec them and pwn them from left to right =D
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:44:00 - [21] the problem isnt the macro's but the farming. if you remove the possibility to use macros, you will simple move the farming from unattended to sweatshop-attended. No gain. What you need to tackle is the ability to control more then say 5 accounts at a time. Even when on different pc's. Wait, that's not possible ! So, you can't remove farming, period. What you can do, is take away its feeding grounds: isk buyers in the 'illegal' circuit. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:55:00 - [22] Ice price has dropped by 50%, macro miners have gone up mining ice buy a LOT, ebay price has fallen a lot. All of this in a month... Too much of a coincedence?? You can't really run 5 or more accounts actually playing the game properly. So from afk mining ice 23/7 to actually playing game (which they just won't do) will cut macro'ers/sweatshops money buy a huge amount. It wasn't until ice could be mined and the recent increase in pos's and adding not much being done by ccp to stop it.... that this al became a real problem. Take away the easy money, and you take away a lot of their isk.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 12:59:00 - [23] Npc's selling ice I reckon would totally mess up there business. You can't really make a huge amount of money in this game unless you are very good at playing it properly (unless you macro). I doubt if these people would have the patience or will to train up char's for months and months to be able to survive 0.0 I think dev's should try taking ice out of empire belts for a month or 2 to see what happens :) Pos owners won't be hurt as Npc's will sell it like they do robotics. A few ice miners might be hit, but come on ... no one mines ice for profit... unless he he
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 13:09:00 - [24] I fully agree, only I would say keep the 0.4 sec ice belts, and remove only 0.5 and up. There are plenty of real players out there mining ice for their POS all the way down to 0.0. It should all be part of the risks of running POS, as far as I am concerned. This won't hurt the asteroid macros miners, but on the other hand the number of real players this will hurt, is miniscule.
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.11.27 13:27:00 - [25] It wouldn't solve macroing but it sure makes sense. I agree.
Avon	Posted - 2005.11.27 13:28:00 - [26] Kill everyone, it is the only way to be sure... ______________________________________________ The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Thomus	Posted - 2005.11.27 13:31:00 - [27] cant the ice just be removed from 0.8-1.0, that way, the NPC rats will kill them for us, unless the one guy controlling 20 PCs can shoot them.... :-S ---------------- Tom
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 14:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Thomus cant the ice just be removed from 0.8-1.0, that way, the NPC rats will kill them for us, unless the one guy controlling 20 PCs can shoot them.... :-S They can kill existing NPCs in 0.5+ with ease.
Gray Carmicheal	Posted - 2005.11.27 14:37:00 - [29] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Thomus cant the ice just be removed from 0.8-1.0, that way, the NPC rats will kill them for us, unless the one guy controlling 20 PCs can shoot them.... :-S They can kill existing NPCs in 0.5+ with ease. Or 0.2, like Khabi. We popped a group that was there with a player controlled Tempest "protecting" them. But I think the hauler was way out of region/on it's way back, because someone got that later when it showed up for the bajillions of cans floating in the belt. ________________ <- Hates Whiners and people with generally crappy attitudes. Does not play well with morons.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.27 15:09:00 - [30] Yep there is no need for ice in empire. It won't solve the whole problem but I think it will kill of 60% of macro miners. Good to see some decent ideas rather than the trolls
Goldengamegod	Posted - 2005.11.27 15:32:00 - [31] Edited by: Goldengamegod on 27/11/2005 15:41:55 Edited by: Goldengamegod on 27/11/2005 15:41:09 Why doesn't CCP just go to ebay, buy ISK, ban the accounts that send it to them, then send a warning to all accounts that recived isk from the macroer which states this will be their only warning, and if they are found to have recived further isk from another macroer ban them to EDIT: Powers of the same quantity offered on ebay. 2004.12.11 03:07:32notifyThe Serpentis Mercenary is too far away, you need to be within 54625 meters of it but are actually 13193590680251 meters away.
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.11.27 15:45:00 - [32] If something isnt done about these smegheads fast, mining will no longer be a viable way to make money in-game for players, and buying ISK is the only way to have money. I mean, if the prices on ice have already dropped by 50%, who wants to mine for 4 hours to make 1.5M isk? With the crash of the trit-prices, mining ore is becoming none-profit too. If this keeps up, I am afraid no-one will be mining soon, and everybody buying ISK from the macroers, who are the only ones stubborn enough to mine for 4 hours to make 1.5M ISK. And, well, who does this benefit? The guys in low-sec with a POS, and the control of zyd/mega already. This is a loose/loose situation for EVE, and I hope CCP will realize this soon(tm), or just run "rm -rf *" on their main server, because this is getting boring, and quite fast. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 15:53:00 - [33] Originally by: Serpensis If something isnt done about these smegheads fast, mining will no longer be a viable way to make money in-game for players, and buying ISK is the only way to have money. Erm, no, agent missions, belt rat bounties and the DED rewards for Overseers' Effects would remain plentiful sources of ISK.
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.11.27 15:56:00 - [34] Edited by: Serpensis on 27/11/2005 15:56:22 Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Serpensis If something isnt done about these smegheads fast, mining will no longer be a viable way to make money in-game for players, and buying ISK is the only way to have money. Erm, no, agent missions, belt rat bounties and the DED rewards for Overseers' Effects would remain plentiful sources of ISK. While n00bs buy 200M isk to start off with, I have to run agent-missions for 4 hours to make a few ISK? Get real. Time is money. -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 16:00:00 - [35] Originally by: Serpensis While n00bs buy 200M isk to start off with, I have to run agent-missions for 4 hours to make a few ISK? Get real. Time is money. People buying ISK are part of the problem. Just because all the n00bs are doing it, doesn't mean it is OK, or without consequence. So yes, grind away at the L4 or 5/10 until it's fixed.
Li'ttle'Gem	Posted - 2005.11.27 16:08:00 - [36] The only way this problem can/maybe resolved is for the devs to make an elite or something konkorden officer npc which can scan in some way to give the said macroer passing through say gates etc and impossing a justified penalty accordingly just a thought for the developers.Then ppl wont complain so much about macro miners.This is just my thought.
Corovus	Posted - 2005.11.27 17:11:00 - [37] Under what category should I petition CCP if I spot some obvious macroers?
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 17:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Corovus Under what category should I petition CCP if I spot some obvious macroers? Exploit!
TheKiller8	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:01:00 - [39] Just make mining into a minigame.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:04:00 - [40] Originally by: TheKiller8 Just make mining into a minigame. OMFG PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! Way to force everyone into L4s.
Gray Carmicheal	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:05:00 - [41] Originally by: TheKiller8 Just make mining into a minigame. ROFL ________________ <- Hates Whiners and people with generally crappy attitudes. Does not play well with morons.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:12:00 - [42] Seeing as we are being redirected to this thread and not one of the numerous others which are older and larger, I am hoping someone upstairs is taking this idea seriously. It's a good one. Take out all the 0.5+ sec ice belts, and give low sec some more love. Perhaps with extra warp scrambling spawns.
Sirilonwe	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:26:00 - [43] Your minigame... is fun for 5 minutes... now imagine a guy mining for his POS... doing this for 5hours per day... psychiatric asylum FTW! _______________________ Forums DSU
TheKiller8	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:37:00 - [44] Well the delay is only ten seconds. Ingame it'd be like the cycle of the mining laser or so. Personally I can almost hear my braincells crying in agony after 15 minutes of mining which is why I never took it up as a profession. If I wanted to stare at rocks for hours I'd just sit in my yard.
Dao 2	Posted - 2005.11.27 18:58:00 - [45] Originally by: Martin Gore I think this would be a good solution as it only harms macro miners, no one mines ice these days. i mined ice when i needed it, and ran into other ppl that did ;p bad solution :\|
Wee Dave	Posted - 2005.11.27 19:08:00 - [46] Originally by: Goldengamegod Edited by: Goldengamegod on 27/11/2005 15:41:55 Edited by: Goldengamegod on 27/11/2005 15:41:09 Why doesn't CCP just go to ebay, buy ISK, ban the accounts that send it to them, then send a warning to all accounts that recived isk from the macroer which states this will be their only warning, and if they are found to have recived further isk from another macroer ban them to EDIT: Powers of the same quantity offered on ebay. Because there are ways of moving ISK about without it being obvious. There are item-drops and ESCROW. And the account sending the ISK is almost invariably a trial account. In fact, I'd be confident that if this happened only one sending would occur per trial character. CCP would be funding the macroers without stopping a single one.
Tobiaz	Posted - 2005.11.27 19:09:00 - [47] Originally by: Rod Blaine the problem isnt the macro's but the farming. if you remove the possibility to use macros, you will simple move the farming from unattended to sweatshop-attended. No gain. What you need to tackle is the ability to control more then say 5 accounts at a time. Even when on different pc's. Wait, that's not possible ! So, you can't remove farming, period. What you can do, is take away its feeding grounds: isk buyers in the 'illegal' circuit. True. CPP should invest more energy into hunting the people that buy ISK then the ones that sell it. Perhpas even letting the sellers untouched so CCP can monitor all their ISK transactions and ban the receipients, scaring them from buying ISK. If CCP ruins the market for them, ISK farming will eventually run into trouble. But Macroing and ISK farming are two separate problems. People running several accounts on a macro but not for selling the ISK for RL money, are also a problem. Recruiting
d Ankou	Posted - 2005.11.27 20:31:00 - [48] Edited by: d Ankou on 27/11/2005 20:33:27 Presumably these macro miners are either using an indy or mining into a jet can? If its the second option, just steal their ice. Ore theft is well, a grey area but macro mining is definitely a big no no. So well, teach them a lesson. steal the rewards of their lazyness. Quote: If this keeps up, I am afraid no-one will be mining soon, Erm, well. no. Ice mining was reduced mainly as there isn't a massive demand for it especially in empire. Macro mining is only a small percentage of miners anyhow... What better place than here, what better time than now?
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.27 20:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Scyrdein Originally by: sonofollo just allow us to shoot em quite simple any characters over 1 month old anytime they go into a NPC corp they get 80% tax rate (will force players into player corps or just stuff up MMs anyway_ What is a problem for macrominer to create it`s own corp, huh? :) You can declare war on them then....
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.11.27 20:58:00 - [50] Originally by: Scyrdein What is a problem for macrominer to create it`s own corp, huh? :) We can wardec their corp, and not the newbie npc ones duh? ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.
Guntaro	Posted - 2005.11.27 21:28:00 - [51] Well, I do mine ice every now and then for profit simply because the longer cycle times and non-popping ice makes it convenient when I have other things to do in the background. And I am sure I can't be the only one. With the recent drop in ice prices I have have simply been stockpiling for a better time to sell.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.28 06:48:00 - [52] It's going to be a long wait with these guys mining ice 24/7
Luckyduck	Posted - 2005.11.28 08:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Scyrdein Originally by: sonofollo just allow us to shoot em quite simple any characters over 1 month old anytime they go into a NPC corp they get 80% tax rate (will force players into player corps or just stuff up MMs anyway_ What is a problem for macrominer to create it`s own corp, huh? :) erm... my corp war decing them :-) ERRRM..... Empire Quality Control ....ERRRM cough, corp, cough
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.28 08:53:00 - [54] level 4s nerfed as well - the macro miners are now targetting kernite (iso and mexallon prices are next)
Thomus	Posted - 2005.11.28 09:10:00 - [55] Originally by: TheKiller8 Edited by: TheKiller8 on 27/11/2005 18:21:04 Just make mining into a minigame. ARGH - OMG! whilst the sound track rules, the point of the game is beyond me, i was playing for 5 mins wen i realised nothing much was happening.... :-S ---------------- Tom
Thomus	Posted - 2005.11.28 09:13:00 - [56] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Corovus Under what category should I petition CCP if I spot some obvious macroers? Exploit! Yes, Exploit! I did! ---------------- Tom
WolfGang H	Posted - 2005.11.28 09:15:00 - [57] Many problems with many (or all) of the ideas posted in this thread. But to combat the first post, if you remove ice from empire it wont stop the macro miners, it will just make them switch to veldspar etc. A 'minor' inconvienance for a 'macro' problem. Pardon the puns. --- Have what it takes to join the Guardians of Basgerin?
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.28 09:59:00 - [58] It's a lot harder to macro mine belts than it is Ice.... Ice doesn't run out. They would look much more obvious taking all the ore from belts. Ice is a total afk job.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.28 10:04:00 - [59] as it is they take all the kernite now (isogen and mexallon prices are the next to fall)
Auman	Posted - 2005.11.28 10:32:00 - [60] Edited by: Auman on 28/11/2005 10:32:34 I'm confused! Why do people say that they are abusing trial accounts when from the looks of the skill reqs you can barely (if at all) use an ice miner + barge in 2 weeks. If I am wrong here and they are using free 2 week accounts just up the skill requirements to use advanced mining gear. It would at least force them to purchase accounts. But like I say I'm surprised if they even can ice mine in 2 weeks. CCP will never do it but would be nice if people people couldn't just exisit in NPC corps forever. It would help with ore thieves and macroing. Force people into war dec-able corps after a month.
Antipodean Minx	Posted - 2005.11.28 10:52:00 - [61] Ice is used for what again? And you can only deploy them where? Remove ice from 0.5 and above security systems.
Kreegor	Posted - 2005.11.28 11:39:00 - [62] Edited by: Kreegor on 28/11/2005 11:42:29 Ive seen loads of micros in retreavers, and they all been trail acounts, they must buy 30 day trail accounts i think, im sure though they can get in barge within 2 weeks not 100% sure though. What about if ccp extended the learning time over 30 days, to get in barge, and bring another minning ship into the game, what you can train for within 2 weeks but cant mine ice, it wont get rid of all the micros, but would help the market lots, withought moving ice belts out of empire.
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.28 13:21:00 - [63] Originally by: Martin Gore Ok, it seems to me that the worst problem with macro minining is the ice belts. Just look in the Jita Ice belts 99% macro mining. The problem with ice, is that it doesn't deplete, or move and you don't need to jet can mine as you can fill your cargo ...warp to st...unload...warp back to bm for another load. I've seen this trend happening now. My solution is to take ice belts out of 0.4 and up. Only have Npc's sell it in empire. Ice is needed a lot due to all the pos's so is an everlasting supply of isk for the macro miners. No risk ..no work needed. Take the ice away form empire and you would have messed up their macro mining ops. Let Npc's sell it and you won't hurt the pos people. Only let it be mined in 0.3 and below, try mining ice there macro heads he he. Just kill them and stop trying to come up with deranged methods of hobbling legit' miners. JUST KILL THEM!! A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Biometric	Posted - 2005.11.28 13:44:00 - [64] ok Im dumb here most likely, but why can't CCP just tell eBay that they are breaking the law by allowing the sale of in game items on their website and instruct them to stop? If its against the EULA then those people selling are breaking the law, ergo eBay condone this action.... If i need to get a clue, let me know what it is please....
Serpensis	Posted - 2005.11.28 13:50:00 - [65] Originally by: Antipodean Minx Remove ice from 0.5 and above security systems. How intelligent, move all the barges down to the nice men in .4 and below, so they can buy the miners ice cheap, and then blow up their barge to take their iceminers afterwards. Brilliant solution -- "Fear accompanies the possibility of death, calm sheperds its certainty."
Flyyn	Posted - 2005.11.28 13:58:00 - [66] Ok lets end this thread. ALL non-Macro miners please send $0.25 extra to CCP This should make up $957.00 that CCP will lose from just ONE macro minning crew, if they banned them. ANOTHER thought. one account...$15.95 2nd account...$16.00 3rd account...$17.00 4th account...$18.00 5th account...you get the idea. Another thought... Make an alt. log on...look at corp chat... Pull up information on characters in "Newbie corp". See how uber they are to you bunch of noobs There are people in these "newbie corps" That are active players, that have never...ever...joined a player corp. So kicking out a 2.5 year old character from a newbie corp wont work. He/she has already made up their minds, and dont want to play with the rest of us... Another thought... Do what CCP has already good and leagal....Petition them...and rob them blind...
Dragodrone	Posted - 2005.11.28 14:16:00 - [67] Originally by: sonofollo Ok well there is a big problem with alts anyway any player with corp 1 skill can start their own corp - please list the problems u speak of (ok alt spies well they would have to be in a corp or inactive) im in favour of nerfing alts 100% but that wont happen so a 80% corp tax for players older than 1 month old in NPC corps The alternative totally seperate to help deal with macro miners and mining sweatshops - farmers is to remove all trial accounts to a seperate free server of 500 systems maximum (im sure CCP could just rejig a few nodes) this would reduce empire lag to just paying players on tq. trail accounts 100% seperate (items characters and ISK) cannot be trasnferred over to tq players can try the game if they like they can pay to play on the real deal after 14 days (quite reasonable suggestion i think many other MMOs do it) and then at least the macro miners or the ppl behind them would be paying $15 US a month for each character thereby cutting their motivation via trial accoutns in mining and also alt usage in that regard I'm a 2 men corporation. Me and my alt. The only thing why i made my own corp is that i can use a corp hangar and put every stuff in it and both chars have full access to it. For macrominers i think not the game has to change - cut the root. CCP has to code some routines in our client version, which detects such actions not taken by a human - which isn't really easy like understanding the english i'm writing here. Just some thoughts... Maybe cut the 'accounts per creditcard' to max 3. Which normal person plays eve with more than 3 accounts at the same time? So there you'll have a basic indicator for a possible macrominer. A tool which searches for blacklisted automation tools in the list of running processes (even if the're hiding) and prevents eve from playing. That way you don't have to recruit masses of hungry, dehydrated people searching for signatures in databases in a small, dark room... Yes i know.. that sound euphoric (check for spelling please and mail me ingame) but it's just a thought i had last night while get podded in egghelende... this name ... egg -> pod... sounds similar... maybe there is a bible code for that.. let me check on this. <logout>
pk blinder	Posted - 2005.11.28 14:35:00 - [68] Erm, I think everyone would if they could! Kill them I mean. But if they are in noob corp, you can't touch them unless you suicide attack. TBH, if there is a market for isk, then we will attract those who will farm it and sell it, by any method. It just so happens that ice mining is the no brainer choice for macro isk making and suffers the most from it. So what do we want to do? Eradicate ebay isk? You need to tackle that from the supply and demand end.I suggest making ice reducable just like roids which will force macroers to move on and away from highway systems, which will reduce their profitability. From the demand end? I would tackle the POS fuel needs (too high IMO - 15 hours game play time in a Coveter per week ice mining for a Large POS!), drop more Tech2 BPOs and increase insurance for high end ships. PK
David Corbett	Posted - 2005.11.28 14:42:00 - [69] Hehe, I'd support moving ice to 0.0... But that's because I'm an ebil alliance PvPer. Oh, speaking of that, why don't we get as many whines about those anymoer? Come on, I miss the attention!
gfldex	Posted - 2005.11.28 14:45:00 - [70] Some points to this thread :) - force players to a non NPC corp Macro users would end with n accounts in n corps. How many wars can you file at the same time befor you run out of money? - forcing ice miners to low sec Getting new gear is a question of ISK and ISK is the least problem of a ISK seller. As somebody else stated befor here on the forum ISK seller may even create their own allicance and kick sane players out. Keep in mind they work the same time as they play. - limit accounts per credit card 3 Words: Game Time Card - talk to eBay A lot companies tried and all failed. It simply wont work. - add anti cheat tool on client side Well ... it will not work. I played a lot CoD and every time Punk Buster got a update my kill count hit the roof. Two days later ppl went back to normal business as ****er (they are not hacker!) updated their cheats. Maybe the new office CCP moved to (/me gives the CCP a big hug because moving a company is a pain i the beep*) will get use some in game police. Spawning NPCs near afk miners 4tw. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.28 14:49:00 - [71] Originally by: pk blinder Erm, I think everyone would if they could! Kill them I mean. But if they are in noob corp, you can't touch them unless you suicide attack. TBH, if there is a market for isk, then we will attract those who will farm it and sell it, by any method. It just so happens that ice mining is the no brainer choice for macro isk making and suffers the most from it. So what do we want to do? Eradicate ebay isk? You need to tackle that from the supply and demand end.I suggest making ice reducable just like roids which will force macroers to move on and away from highway systems, which will reduce their profitability. From the demand end? I would tackle the POS fuel needs (too high IMO - 15 hours game play time in a Coveter per week ice mining for a Large POS!), drop more Tech2 BPOs and increase insurance for high end ships. PK 3 Kessies with minimal skills can take down a Mining Barge, before Concord ganks you. Total cost is about 200k each, not counting all the stuff you recover - yours and the Mining barges... Sometime you can even make a profit A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
gfldex	Posted - 2005.11.28 14:55:00 - [72] One more point :) I consult a corp filled with noobs atm and those young guys didn't know that buying ISK is not allowed. One of them nearly commited this crime because the person who tried to sell some ISK told him it is legal. He is totaly new to MMORPGs so i had to tell him what macros are too. (I had to tell him what NPC stands for. :-\| ) Would you ban him? And please dont refere to the EULA. Nobody is reading a legal document beside loyers. Young EvE players are unaducated and not aware of what is forbidden and allowed. They even think that Pirates are doing something wrong too! -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.11.28 15:05:00 - [73] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 28/11/2005 15:06:04 The burden of learning the provisions of the law (in this case eula) lies with the individual. Or: you better read the eula and if unsure ask a gm. How anyone, even without prior MMO expeirence, could simply assume buying isk for cash is legal and allowed without even enough doubt to go look for more information is beyond me. edit: so yes, I'd ban them allright. It's a temporary ban on first offense anyway. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.28 15:08:00 - [74] I still think moving Ice to npc sales and 0.4 and below would solve a lot of problems.
Orrin Danestarr	Posted - 2005.11.28 17:15:00 - [75] Edited by: Orrin Danestarr on 28/11/2005 17:19:20 I had a thought that would make it difficult... move ice out to .5 space and below. All space adjacent to low security systems has a possibility of spawning tougher than normal rats depending what system is next to it... i.e. getting cruiser rat spawns in .5 and .6 systems adjacent to a .3. It would have a 2 fold effect. 1, it would make mining a lot more dynamic and require more thought. 2. With ice still in .5 space, its still possible to mine in empire space but the rats will discourage both ice and ore macro miners, as stringer rat spawns will tear through the defenses that these macro'ers put upa nd leave a nice loot drop for anyone in the system to casually loot from. But its only my idea. "Imagination is the key that unlocks the door." - ME
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.28 18:26:00 - [76] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 28/11/2005 18:26:43 My latest thoughts... From what I have been hearing, a combat macro has no problem tearing through a low sec cruiser spawn. And it makes sense. They macro mine in 0.6 and 0.5 easily enough, and the guys I have seen were in Feroxes and Apocs. It's not much work to fit assault launchers to a Ferox and nothing in 0.4 except a player will touch them. In 0.3, they'd lose to a faction cruiser spawn every time, but that's a rare operating expense. Here is a synthesis of the more reasonable solutions so far... *Taking ice belts out of 0.5+* will remove one source of unlimited wealth. This will harm only a negligible number of players, as ice is a component of low sec and 0.0 industry. Its presence in safe Empire is an anomaly. Ice prices will rebound and justly reward those numerous players already taking the low-sec risk and mining it. And it would be about time. Regarding the macro miners willing to brave low-sec... *RMR will introduce battlecruiser spawns into 0.3 and below, as well as two tiers of faction spawns and NPC EW capability.* This could not have come at a better time! A player confident enough to be belt-ratting in 0.3 and below should be no stranger to cap drains, sensor dampers, tracking disruptors, target-jamming and the like. For a macro, this is one hell of a steep learning curve, as their defense is static. Why are their weapons suddenly ineffective? Nothing but precious skillpoints diverted away from industry will save them, and the coding required for combat maneuvres is probably beyond them. *The key to making this defence effective, is ensuring that EW-capable NPC spawns have a high probability of occurence in 0.3 and below!* CCP, I hope you are listening. If you are not planning full-spectrum EW to be a common feature of < 0.3 NPCs, you really need to change your code. Any macros still foolishly venturing into low sec will therefore find that only 0.4 contains NPCs easy enough to defend against, or else require constant supervision by a real human flying a combat character in a large properly-fitted ship. I am sure the player-pirates of EVE would rise to the challenge. The macros will of course adapt and refocus their efforts onto high-sec asteroid belts. This is where the next phase of changes comes in - *introduction of belt rats into 0.9, and removal of ALL belts from 1.0.* AFK mining in indys will die out, but few will mourn that loss. *The new mining environment will be this - no mining anywhere without NPC spawns.* This will mean that all macro miners in EVE will be forced to use combat macros. For those that currently do not, this will mean an added inconvenience. Now what I suggest to any CCP guys reading this thread, is this - don't look for one single brilliant idea to solve the problem. It will never happen. *You need to implement each measure collated in this post as a bare minimum, no later in January, just to START work on the problem.* Note that we are still left with a massive gap in the strategy, if we are taking the above-named measures as a given: - How to address combat-macro-capable macro miners in high-sec Empire? I feel like such an idiot for not spotting the obvious flaw that another player has pointed out. If the noobcorps kick players over a month old, we will have one-man macro corps. Corp 12345, Ticker [12345] etc, and with war dec fees at 2m per week, and several thousand offending accounts, that's a lot of money for the community to stump up. It really would hurt the newbies more than the macros. So it's back to the drawing board about what to do with high sec.
Reiisha	Posted - 2005.11.28 20:00:00 - [77] Originally by: Cmdr Sy I feel like such an idiot for not spotting the obvious flaw that another player has pointed out. If the noobcorps kick players over a month old, we will have one-man macro corps. Corp 12345, Ticker [12345] etc, and with war dec fees at 2m per week, and several thousand offending accounts, that's a lot of money for the community to stump up. It really would hurt the newbies more than the macros. So it's back to the drawing board about what to do with high sec. Leave 1.0 belts (for new players, there ARE people who seriously want to learn how to play the game, and also mine), introduce belt rats in up to 0.9 i agree with. However, you could simply only have scordite and veldspar, maybe even only veldspar in 1.0 (this already seems to be the case though). Something to add: Can flagging. It will be put in soon, BUT: only flag people who steal from non-npc corp cans.. This way, macro miners will have to live with 2 things: a) Their ore can get stolen if they stay in an npc corp. b) They can simply be war decced on if NOT in an npc corp. I'd say, let people pop npc corp cans or just steal the ore from them, instead of flagging them. Most npc corp players are either advanced lvl 4 runners or otherwise working on stuff not involving mining, or they simply use secure cans and/or cargo mining instead of can mining, which isn't really a problem. So, if they're in an npc corp, pop their cans repeatedly, and if they're not, wardec. This would require having to leave can flagging for npc corp cans out tho, which should not really be a problem for anyone. Save Darwinia!
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.28 20:39:00 - [78] Originally by: Reiisha Leave 1.0 belts (for new players, there ARE people who seriously want to learn how to play the game, and also mine), introduce belt rats in up to 0.9 i agree with. However, you could simply only have scordite and veldspar, maybe even only veldspar in 1.0 (this already seems to be the case though). Sorry, but I do not believe this is an option. Giving players an environment in which they can mine without NPC attack, is letting the macros win. On my first day in EVE, I was ninja-mining Kernite with a frigate in a 0.6. There is neither a need nor an excuse for a rat-free mining environment. EVE has grown and evolved to the extent that it has become a target for professional currency farmers, and that means some demands previously made by NPC corps are no longer realistic. This is a concession they will have to make, otherwise all other measures are negated. In any case, a trip to any 1.0 asteroid belt will show you what's left for newbies to practice their mining on. Nothing. The macros destroy the belts the moment they begin to regenerate.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.28 21:38:00 - [79] A well rounded post, cheers for sorting through all the ideas. I hope ccp are listening.
Xascor	Posted - 2005.11.29 00:32:00 - [80] I like Reiisha's can flagging idea. That would at least encourage the macro miners to make their own corp which could be war-decced. It might lead to some newbie griefing but I doubt it'd be too bad. I'm still a newbie and belong to a newbie corp. I plan on staying there for around 3 months. Figure that way I'm less a burden on a player corp. It also gives me time to learn about the player corps. When I join a guild/clan/corp I don't ever plan to leave. Kicking me out to fend for myself or making me pay 80% taxes would force me to join a player corp before I feel I'm ready. Not good. As for the 1.0/0.9 mining issues. I have AFK mined a few times while at work. Netted virtually nothing (about 500k a day). I'd give it up (well...I already have )to allow rats in the asteroid fields. Rats wouldn't hurt macro miners too much though. I've seen them in lower security zones as well. This game is all about risk vs reward. Why should anyone be rewarded for a no risk mining venture like 0.9 and 1.0 is right now? Make a new type of ore (Noobite?) that can't be refined and only be sold to an NPC for a set rate. Lock the amount able to be mined/sold at like a few 100k ISK per month per account. It only spawns in 1.0. Make the only miners that can mine it the Miner I or the Basic Miner. The low yield will still be enough for newbies like me to get our first few frigates equipped but not enough to allow belt stripping to be a problem. If making a new ore type is an issue, change Veldspar to only allow Miner I or the Basic Miner. Should help a lot. Newbies could make money from the Trit and veterans could still get plenty of Trit from Scordite. Macro miners wouldn't be able to make hardly anything because of the low yield rate of the miners. Maybe I shouldn't be participating in this discussion because I'm such a newbie, but I see the same miners in my home system every time I log in with all the signs of being macroers. Belts that were full are always stripped now by the time I get on to play. No risk/high reward. Not good. Please shoot holes in everything I just said. That's what discussions are for. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ <---Is a newbie. Probably working on
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.29 00:53:00 - [81] Originally by: Xascor Maybe I shouldn't be participating in this discussion because I'm such a newbie, but I see the same miners in my home system every time I log in with all the signs of being macroers. Belts that were full are always stripped now by the time I get on to play. No risk/high reward. Not good. Please shoot holes in everything I just said. That's what discussions are for. Far from it. Veterans deal with economic abstractions, and we need more constructive input from the people at the receiving end of this issue. At the moment too many people assume what NPC corp residents think, and this imposes limits on the discussion. The fact that you are willing to tolerate belt rats and the demise of AFK hauler mining, is a valauble contribution in itself. It shows that there is a healthy attitude to risk in that community, and some sort of compromise is possible.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.29 07:15:00 - [82] A mate of mine just joined an anti macro corp called "Marco Miner Murdering Association" yes... with the spelling mistake. They took out a load of macro mining barges, I'll be joining them tonight :)
Lygos	Posted - 2005.11.29 07:30:00 - [83] I vote we get rid of ice entirely. Just omit it from every equation. POS don't need fuel. Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible."
Tuatha Moonstalker	Posted - 2005.11.29 08:21:00 - [84] I am a newbie to Eve. I however am not a newbie to MMORPGs. This very same problem (farmers/ebayers) is rampant in other games as well. Similar solutions to those that have been mentioned here have been tried and failed. Making life a bit harder for the macroers yes but mostly hurting new players or old time honest players. Newbies need to have a relativly safe place to get themselves started in whatever path they decide on. The idea of a new roid type that processes in to something like noobite is actually kind of a good idea. Fill the 1.0 sectors with that and make it only sellable to NPCs. The roid can only be mined with the basic miner, and make the basic miner only mountable on the rookie ship and maybe frigates. .9 and lower have rat spawns. However I want to say something about that too. As a new player in a frigate that only has 2 highspots trying to get enough mining done to afford a bigger ship is not as easy as you all seem to think. Even with 1 miner and 1 gun you get a spawn of 3 rats and chances are you going to get blown up or have to warp out. Remember as a newbie, especially one that used the Miner template and going for a miner career, is going to suck really bad in combat. So think on things like that before going for the extreme. Moving Ice to .4 or lower on the surface sounds pretty good, but again you are taking out a whole slew of potential honest miners that would like to mine ice but have non pvp skills. Putting a limit on the ice in Empire would probably be a better soloution.. like making them pop like normal roids for instance. So far I have yet to run in to a macroer in Eve... again I am a newbie so thats not saying much. And looking at the skills needed for a strip miner and barge... at least with my attributes is not something that is going to happen in 14 days so I don't understand that one. If I am wrong and it is possible to get in to a barge with a strip miner in under 14 days then just up the difficulty so that to get a barge its going to take you at least 30 days. That whole tax idea on newbie corps is just .... I can't even say it. I have been talking with people in the npc corp I am in and some of them have been in that corp for over a year. They don't want to be in an npc corp for various reasons. Personally I don't really want to be in a player corp anytime soon either. If I am online and want to do a group thing its not hard to get together a party when the npc corp you are in has over 300 people online who are just as pumped up as you are. With any problem you have to look at it from all angles... not just yours. Look at it from Old players, New players, and also the Company. CCP has to walk a very fine line here and no one seems to understand that... which seems to be the case with any MMO. The Company has to look at the situation from all sides not just one. I'm going to shut up now that I have written a book as my first post.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.29 08:56:00 - [85] Nooby ore that only noobie's can mine, that's a great idea :) have it so that you can only mine it if your less tan 2 weeks old.
Tauruz	Posted - 2005.11.29 10:27:00 - [86] Last I heard, CCP was planning to build the macro miners their own shard
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.29 10:51:00 - [87] good ideas all round the 80% NPC corp tax afer 1 month would be the biggest deterent and ..... push players into other corps as CCP want
britishfish	Posted - 2005.11.29 11:10:00 - [88] Remove ice from 0.5 and above sound` like teh best plan. and like someone in a previous post said. shouldn`t mining for ice in 0.4 and bellow be apart of the owning of a POS.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.29 11:17:00 - [89] one small problem CCP are introducing POS into up to 0.7 systems - i think the reporting system continues to be the best as well as NPC corp tax after 1 month of 80% - and moving trial accounts to a seperate free server (and making sure they cannot be trasnferred to TQ without a) restarting and b) no items or ISK can be moved. Will encourage ISK farmers to also pay their monthly subscription And further still but unlikley remove alts
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2005.11.29 11:22:00 - [90] Ollo, do you pay attention to the threads in which you post your so called replies at all ? There will be no measures against npc corp members, period. Oveur said as much. So unless you can come up with a good idea for a change, why don't you try posting less ...
Galk	Posted - 2005.11.29 11:42:00 - [91] It is highly unlikely ccp will change the balance of the game to eliminate macrominers. I for one wouldn't probaly be playing now if i had been booted from my npc corp within a month (or as much as with a 80% tax), forced to a player corp with about 5-6 active users that probaly wouldn't have been on when i was playing (yeah i fact it was like that, and when they were, nobody actualy talked.. hence i found learning the game alot easier in a npc corp with over 100 players, most of which had the same agenda as myself) Just quit hating, from all these threads it's pretty obvious to me that a few people are jumping on the bandwagon to bring about what they want to see in the game, it's got naff all to do with macro miners. Give it a rest. ----------- When they asked me if i knew you, id smile and say you were a friend of mine.
Flyyn	Posted - 2005.11.29 12:32:00 - [92] CCP needs more people, who volunteer and have very limeted power. Their job would be checking up on the pettitions. When confirmed as a macrominner, the volunteer can re-adjust the securty status by -1.0. Each time the Macro miners are caught, their securty status drops another -1.0. Now if the macro miner has been pettioned several times, you guessed it. He can go from 0.0 to -5.0 real quick. Not only does this show the macro miners CCP wont stand for this crap, but gives the player base a way to combat macro miners too. CCP let us help. As honest account paying players, we dont need to be doing things, like recycling ALTS. Make it leagal for us the PLAYERS to shoot these scumm!!
Tauruz	Posted - 2005.11.29 13:33:00 - [93] Edited by: Tauruz on 29/11/2005 13:34:33 nm
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.29 18:15:00 - [94] Noobite ore in 0.9+ sellable only to NPC buy orders is a great idea in theory. The trick would be getting the balance right, ensuring that it offers sufficient ISK reward for a newbie miner, while making it insufficiently economically viable for a macro. The potential flaw is, macro operations have such economies of scale, that they can turn a profit no matter how meagre the resource. It could turn out to be a pointless conversion of 0.9+ Veldspar into something just like it. And look what the macro miners have done with that resource. Regarding making ice belts finite...they will be destroyed, just like ore in high sec. You would force the macros to move from system to system faster, without reducing their cashflow at this stage in their growth. The only solution is removing them. And I see no reasonable argument for having ice in 0.5+ anyway. It is a component of low sec industry. That's where it should be. The majority of real ice miners are doing it in situ where their or their clients' POS are. They deserve a higher reward for the risk they are taking. Now for my latest suggestion, which even I consider to be more full of holes that Swiss cheese. Essentially a marriage of Astrometrics and Mining. Move the physical location of the asteroid belts in 0.5+, and remove the 'warp to' menu group. This will mean that players wishing to mine asteroids will need to scan probe the belts. OMFG, I hear you cry, you are just a griefer who wants to screw the newbies. Erm, no. See, all asteroid belts are associated with planets, and are mere millions of kilomtres away from their planet. This means that "discovering" a belt will require the following... - Train Astrometrics I - Buy a Scan Probe Launcher and some 3au probes - they cost peanuts - Fit to any hauler or destroyer - any noob can fly one - Fly to any planet (if you want to be clever, use scanner to make a shortlist of planets) - Follow usual scan probe procedure (belt properties will have to be altered to make them subject to scan probes - this will take mere minutes) - Warp to belt, bookmark, mine The system I envisage will retain belt permanence - ie the belt will remain, regenerate and produce NPC spawns exactly as before! The difference is, to access it, you will either need to scan probe it or obtain a bookmark. This will finally give the completely neglected exploration enthusiasts in EVE something meaningful to do during a month-long break from futile searches for non-existent hidden complexes. The macros will log in to find the belts gone, everywhere. After much searching, they will be forced to scanprobe, buy up all the bookmarks, reduce the scale of operations or leave. Now for the pitfalls... - How clued-up are newbies? Will they have the sense to ask someone in their noobcorp for a bookmark, or will CCP have to provide them with a bookmark as part of the tutorial. Major headache. - Empire warriors will moan about enemies hiding in the belts, to which they can't warp. But condiering the proximity of a planet, it would just be a VERY bad safespot. - This is probably a coding nightmare so extreme, someone from CCP will post here and tell me to STFU n00b. Yeah, I know. This idea is pure desperation.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.29 18:25:00 - [95] I suppose all the constructive debate is now over and the players have run out of ideas. CCP said, don't suggest anything that will harm the noobcorps. That is the extent of their guidance, so it is impossible to tell which if any of the sugestions have been feasible from their point of view. Indeed, for all we know, CCP have complete grasp of the situation, the macros will disappear and never come back after some secret blitz post-RMR, and we will be left none the wiser. In which case they could have just said so and this discussion will never have taken place. Conversely, they may have already been defeated by the volume of petitions, and like many other MMOs, have neither the tools nor the staff to eliminate it, except through some change to the game environment. In which case it makes sense to propose changes, but without an adequate understanding of the boundaries imposed, we are completely off the mark. We could be thinking up ideas they dismissed months ago. The third and most annoying possibility, is that CCP took one look at all the NPC-corp PVP griefing suggestions (I've made a couple myself but retract them after speaking to some NPC corp players) , decided nothing worthwhile will emerge from the debate, and are doing their own thing. Our whining then, is futile. It's a shame, whichever is the case, that this is what those cheats are doing to the community.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.29 18:47:00 - [96] You guys should see Jita Ice belts....a lot of macro's getting spanked he he. Pods everywhere ...now thats the spirit
Tuatha Moonstalker	Posted - 2005.11.29 19:38:00 - [97] Like I said before I am a noob so forgive me if I say something stupid. I have heard from other players both in game and on the boards that it is possible to do a suicide run in empire and actually take these fools out before concord totally rips you up. It takes a number of pilots though. If we are only talking about losing a frigate... ok and some standing... even as a newbie I would jump at the chance to join up with a group of macro hunters and go play kamakazi. Hey this would be a nice way to use an Alt.
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.30 00:55:00 - [98] Originally by: Tuatha Moonstalker Like I said before I am a noob so forgive me if I say something stupid. I have heard from other players both in game and on the boards that it is possible to do a suicide run in empire and actually take these fools out before concord totally rips you up. It takes a number of pilots though. If we are only talking about losing a frigate... ok and some standing... even as a newbie I would jump at the chance to join up with a group of macro hunters and go play kamakazi. Hey this would be a nice way to use an Alt. Typically, it can take Concord somewhere between 5 and 25 Seconds to spawn and take your ship down. 4 Noob Characters can do a lot of damage in that amount of time to a mining barge or a hauler, before ending up in a pod. The trick is to keep a level head when your team attacks... yes you are going to end up in a pod, and Yes you are going to lose your ship and take a sec rating hit. But you will take 30 million worth of ship and mods with you when you do... A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2005.11.30 01:34:00 - [99] I wonder how long the microminers can keep up doing that thing. Mining that ice earns them next-to-nothing and loosing a barge is a very nice hit. On a side-note, will I get banned for recycling alts who solely kill macrominers? Oh wait... let's use the classical way of the disposable and untraceable trial accounts I'll join you guys very soon The isk in wallet can buy me 45.000 fitted frigates, sweeet :) I'll show up with the freighter and drop you a few hundred kessies+equipment. Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.11.30 03:03:00 - [100] ah yes the kessie attack. Always fun make sure u have superior firepower however.
Spy4Hire	Posted - 2005.11.30 04:17:00 - [101] Simple fix - force people out of NPC corps by removing their immunity to war declarations, but make it twice as expensive to declare war on an NPC corporation (to prevent war spam on every NPC corp in EVE). Nuublar schools are still immune, but that immunity should only last 4 months. After that the nuublar pilot graduates to their faction's NPC corporation and are exposed to the risk of war. Remove immunity, that will put the biggest kink in macro mining that can feasibly be inparted. A higher tax rate would also help... 50% or higher in NPC corps. Edit: RMR talks about factional warfare... maybe that will be the removal of immunity for NPC corps??
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2005.11.30 06:15:00 - [102] You know, I can't help but wonder wtf CCP is thinking with the idea of asteroid belts that span entire systems. Aside from the overflow of ore that would give, you'd need scan probes to check for macro miners, because belts that are several AU long would be hard to patrol. ------------------------------------ Quote: 1 Billion isk currently sells on ebay for about $225 90 day GTC $38.95 Currently selling for 300mill Therefore 1Bill isk costs you $129.50.
Martin Gore	Posted - 2005.11.30 12:23:00 - [103] To large barges down so far... seems Jita has only retrievers macroing now : )
Halleck Gurney	Posted - 2005.11.30 13:19:00 - [104] Here is a radical idea ... note the term "idea", meaning think about and improve Since CCP is basically undermanned to deal with the macrominer problem, why don't they start a player based corporation equivalent to Concord. This corporation will be managed by CCP and has a "Rules book" that enables it's members to engage suspected macrominers (according to pre-set procedures for identifying macrominers) without affecting their security status. Since CCP has full control of this player corporation, they can select players that show the necessary skills to identify and bring to justice macrominers. Look at it as another police task force with the special objective of tracking down and eliminating macrominers. Ofcourse, abuse of the special status will result in the immediate dismissal and fining of members. Again ... it's an idea ... but the main advantage is that the guys of CCP that are now overwelmed with work will be given a voluntary player base that they can use to verify and take out all these macrominers. I'm sure that there will be enough volunteers that will gladly and responsibly carry out this task. So ... what ya think ? Too radical maybe
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.30 14:43:00 - [105] Originally by: Feta Solamnia I wonder how long the microminers can keep up doing that thing. Mining that ice earns them next-to-nothing and loosing a barge is a very nice hit. On a side-note, will I get banned for recycling alts who solely kill macrominers? Oh wait... let's use the classical way of the disposable and untraceable trial accounts I'll join you guys very soon The isk in wallet can buy me 45.000 fitted frigates, sweeet :) I'll show up with the freighter and drop you a few hundred kessies+equipment. We look forward to have you... On a side note; Reservoir Dogs will be able to take in all races by this weekend. We have a war dec' out on a corp that was macro'ing, but has since reduced itself to mining in Battlecruisers. Seems that we are having an impact in our local area. Until then... Cowboy up and Soldier on A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.30 14:47:00 - [106] Originally by: Spy4Hire Simple fix - force people out of NPC corps by removing their immunity to war declarations, but make it twice as expensive to declare war on an NPC corporation (to prevent war spam on every NPC corp in EVE). Nuublar schools are still immune, but that immunity should only last 4 months. After that the nuublar pilot graduates to their faction's NPC corporation and are exposed to the risk of war. Remove immunity, that will put the biggest kink in macro mining that can feasibly be inparted. A higher tax rate would also help... 50% or higher in NPC corps. Edit: RMR talks about factional warfare... maybe that will be the removal of immunity for NPC corps?? Our Corp is trying to keep the Legit' miner from suffering fundamental changes in the game, because of the actions of Macro's and other exploits. We feel that EVE can police itself, within the exisiting game Mechanics, and that the changes proposed would do more harm that good. On a side note: Kessies can be a lot of fun... A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink
Pandemic Thinking	Posted - 2005.11.30 14:48:00 - [107] Originally by: Martin Gore To large barges down so far... seems Jita has only retrievers macroing now : ) You are one sexy Btch... A Good Deed is nothing more than a Bad Deed in need of a Drink*

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