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Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
540
   |
Posted - 2013.07.21 19:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
varg has poor range (same as mach) and even less dps |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 19:40:00 -
[62] - Quote
"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
540
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 19:46:00 -
[63] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg.
I know exactly how falloff works and I can tell you that a varg cannot compete with a domi that can fully apply 850+ DPS at 90km range |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 19:51:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:hmskrecik wrote:"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg. I know exactly how falloff works and I can tell you that a varg cannot compete with a domi that can fully apply 850+ DPS at 90km range
And I can tell you it can. :) I tried both, among others, honestly. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
540
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:01:00 -
[65] - Quote
Well =/ numbers don't lie, only way for that to happen if that you're not flying the domi as it should be. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Well =/ numbers don't lie, only way for that to happen if that you're not flying the domi as it should be.
Are you aware that this argument works both ways? |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
540
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:36:00 -
[67] - Quote
I can't artificially make my vargur do more dps than is physically enabled by game mechanics so if the dominix has more dps past a certain range, it has more dps past that range. |
Whitehound
1610
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
*gets popcorn and makes a check list*
Checklist:
[y/n] ... mentions lack of overheating
[y/n] ... mentions lack of implants
[y/n] ... mentions lack of faction damage mods
[y/n] ... mentions drone vulnerability or NPC AI
[y/n] ... is fair
[y/n] ... is stubborn
Bonus points:
[y/n] ... mentions Dominix being over-powered
[y/n] ... uses alliance tournament as proof
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
895
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:49:00 -
[69] - Quote
Q: Why would anyone fly a Vargur?
A: You would fly a Vargur if it was the best ship you had skills to fly for the task you wish to complete. /thread |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:I can't artificially make my vargur do more dps than is physically enabled by game mechanics so if the dominix has more dps past a certain range, it has more dps past that range.
By the same token, I can't squeeze more dps from sentries than is already allowed.
Facts remain, I flew new Domi on many missions and while it's really great, in terms of performance it lags behind a bit. Do I say Domi is bad? No! It's awesome for its price. But on the same missions Vargur still gets much better ticks. I could go into theorycrafting why, but in my opinion it would be waste of time. Final result is what counts. |
Kosetzu
Aeons Multiplied
73
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 20:57:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ohh noes, people fly the Vargur because it can salvage as it goes without sacrificing any slots for it! Not everyone uses multiple characters in EVE, and if they do having two damage ships is better than one damage and one salvage in terms of completion times.
Marauders have yet to be rebalanced as well so comparing them to other ships that has already undergone this balancing is somewhat strange. Sure it's about "what's good right now", but we know for a fact that Marauders will get looked into in the future. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
540
|
Posted - 2013.07.21 21:00:00 -
[72] - Quote
Yes but when we're talking about missions, your paper dps is far from the only factor in completion times. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 06:14:00 -
[73] - Quote
I thought I've been stating clearly enough that to me the only factor in completion times I take care of is the completion time.
Vargur completes missions faster than Domi and many other ships. Q.E.D. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
543
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:40:00 -
[74] - Quote
But the numbers don't attest to that, so you're either doing something wrong or just blind to logic. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 11:42:00 -
[75] - Quote
Enlighten me then. Show me correct numbers. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
543
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 12:16:00 -
[76] - Quote
Assuming no implants
Domi does 880 fully projected DPS to 87km of which 800 is immune to any kind of ewar (same thing cannot be said for varg)
Varg does a hilarious 450 dps with barrage at the same range so in fact a MWD is almost a requirement to flying one efficiently since it's not got the high base speed of a mach to make use of a deadspace 100mn AB.
The varg using faction short range projectile only starts breaking even with the domi at 27km, every single level 4 mission has spawns further than 27km.
Even if I use the most expensive implants available (pashans, +6%s) the varg still only breaks even at 40km
Adding a flight of lights (good luck with mediums not being blown up) it brings it up to 48km though that's still debatable whether or not they will survive that far out.
Now since the varg goes about 1.1kms that means you are regularly having to re-align and fly to your target to apply similar DPS the domi can at 87km |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
135
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 12:49:00 -
[77] - Quote
Just wanted to add for anyone else following this thread who has their eye on a Vargur and is now getting worried... it's a fine mission boat. More than fine, as a matter of fact. People are arguing about top-tier time efficiency here. If that's your goal, you probably already knew that you weren't headed for a Vargur. But for a solid salvage-as-you-go mission runner, Varg is a wonderful boat. Don't worry about the fact that you can't hit out to 100k... your tractors only go 48k anyway. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 14:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
@Tsukino: Not these numbers. Which part of "I care only about completion time" did you not get? Because this is what I asked for: completion time, tick value, average ISK/hr.
Your analysis, accurate and logical as it is, is precisely this theorycrafting I refuse to go into. And believe me or not, I'm better at it than you.
Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation? |
Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 16:30:00 -
[79] - Quote
Why would anyone fly a Vargur?
Because of the way the Vargur flies. Sometimes, you just fly ships that feel good to fly and not care about efficiency. And well, people could argue that it looks better than the Machariel. |
Keith Planck
League of Extraordinary Equines
509
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 19:58:00 -
[80] - Quote
This thread is out of control... |
Kosetzu
Aeons Multiplied
73
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 20:24:00 -
[81] - Quote
Keith Planck wrote:This thread is out of control...
It got out of control at what... page 1? |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.22 21:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Kosetzu wrote:Keith Planck wrote:This thread is out of control... It got out of control at what... page 1?
Actually, it got at post #1. If having performance lower than a Machariel is grounds for "being terrible" then it means basically every other non-capital ship should be written off. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
547
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 09:33:00 -
[83] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:
Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation?
i can put the same question to you in the opposite direction. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 09:57:00 -
[84] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:hmskrecik wrote:
Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation?
i can put the same question to you in the opposite direction.
Yes, you can.
The difference is that I back my my position by first-hand experience while you only cite EFT analysis.
|
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
547
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 10:07:00 -
[85] - Quote
What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 10:18:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.
What is not solid in the information that *every* mission Vargur completes faster than the Dominix/Kronos/Vindicator? And usually by quite significant margin (for Domi, 15% or more, for other two lesser but still noticeable).
You do not trust my testimony? Well, we have to leave it at that then. I'm not going to FRAPS just for you, sorry. |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
547
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 10:33:00 -
[87] - Quote
Because it's your word without any kind of practical or theoretical backing, you don't need to fraps anything but if you're as good with numbers as you say then I'm sure you can convince me.
However at the moment I'm finding it very hard to see your side. |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
German Information Network Alliance
92
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 10:59:00 -
[88] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Because it's your word without any kind of practical or theoretical backing, you don't need to fraps anything but if you're as good with numbers as you say then I'm sure you can convince me.
However at the moment I'm finding it very hard to see your side.
What kind of backing more practical than flying missions do you expect? |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
191
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 11:50:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.
I accept this is anecdotal, but a very good friend and Cop mate of mine owns a Mach and a Vargur and I was telling him about this thread on Vent last night. he told me that he never uses the Mach any more because the Vargur does everything the Mach does and uses half the ammo. He uses an 800mm AC fit and it spanks the NPCs silly in Lvl 4s.
We all mission together and I've seen how fast the Vargur chews through mobs - it's a very good ship for Lvl 4 PVE.
Make of that what you will.
As regards your question Tsukino, can you fly a Mach & a Vargur yourself? Had you considered doing some comparisons between the ships in mission completion times etc? just wondering what data you'd want to see to quantify 'best', even though that's really subjective.
Plus +ša change, plus c'est la m+Žme chose |
Crularii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 12:01:00 -
[90] - Quote
Zor'katar wrote:Just wanted to add for anyone else following this thread who has their eye on a Vargur and is now getting worried... it's a fine mission boat. More than fine, as a matter of fact. People are arguing about top-tier time efficiency here. If that's your goal, you probably already knew that you weren't headed for a Vargur. But for a solid salvage-as-you-go mission runner, Varg is a wonderful boat. Don't worry about the fact that you can't hit out to 100k... your tractors only go 48k anyway.
Not trying to nitpick here, but my Vargur using Barrage hits out to 100k. Of course you'd have to use a sensor booster for targetting things that far away.
And regarding the OP. I fly a Vargur because it suits my playstyle the best. I can lazy-omni-tank it, while still keeping enough oomph to finish L4 missions in an adequate timeframe. Additionally I can cherry-pick wrecks to salvage on the go and don't have to spend that much money an ammo, enabling me to use faction ammo all the time, without my wallet shouting at me. And of course the hull is sexy as hell. |
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