You are fitting it wrong.

Fit it right and you have a ship that's on par with mach.

[....] the Marauders are said to see a conceptual change.

Judging from history, this can be double edged sword.

But I agree, Vargur is damn fine ship as it is.

An RF ammo Vargur has the same DPS (and ranges) as a Mach. The Mach's advantage lies in being able to close the range faster and reduce DPS loss to falloff (~10% improvement in DPS for every ~11km closer you are.)

However, I ran those numbers before the TE nerf, but since the Vargur fit relies mostly on TCs, it should be a moot issue.

What's the fit with TCs? Have always ran with TEs in the past, surely filling mids with TCs ruins your tank, assuming a shield booster + invul setup.

And to OP, Vargur uses nearly half the ammo of a Mach and can put out 1300-1500 DPS with 3 Gyros and 5% or higher implants... slightly slower but not much.

What's the fit with TCs? Have always ran with TEs in the past, surely filling mids with TCs ruins your tank, assuming a shield booster + invul setup.

And to OP, Vargur uses nearly half the ammo of a Mach and can put out 1300-1500 DPS with 3 Gyros and 5% or higher implants... slightly slower but not much.

I can't really see how the PG is much of a problem for a Vargur. You only fit 4 guns, that removes a lot of the PG required for say a Machariel that needs more weapon PG.

If you're flying a ship worth as much as Marauder you should at least pimp it some with at least faction damage mods, prop mod and resist mod(s) imo.

Yes. With less ammo use as well.

Serious issue with a mach, that thing is always out of ammo.

Not only does the Vargur consume less ammo than the Mach, it can also carry more.

(Don't undererstimate the cargo capacity of a marauder with cargohold expansions. It's ideal for the nomadic lifestyle and can even carry a shuttle for quick trips.)

Not sure if the majority will see this as a good thing when one needs to point out the size of the cargohold when comparing two battleship-sized hulls.

Terrible Powergrid
Which Translates into terrible DPS and range
Which turns into terrible completion time
Which = terrible isk/hr

I'm pretty sure you can run a site faster with a machariel and coming back in a noctis; or just blitzing sites and skipping salvage.

Literally the only advantage the Vargur has is the tractor beam range and an unnecessary boost to tank. It can tank C4 sleeper sites but so can a machariel, and it can't even fit the 1400s needed to DPS them, or even a smartbomb.

Just... why CCP, why is the powergrid sooooooo terrible... It should be able to fit 1400s and a LARGE shield booster with at most 1 faction reactor control unit.

This is my Vargur and yes, I like to be semi-afk or wander off to something else
That is why it's capstable and you don't have to worry about aggroing this and that.
Oh, and with a set of Crystals you REALLY don't have to worry about being too drunk

[Vargur, Missions]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Cap Recharger II

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II

It is pretty fail as a t2 top of the line boat considering that rest of marauders are not plagued with joke of a powergrid, hopefully CCP will do something about marauders in this century.

Falloff, bitches. Rat specific tank. Aggroing things properly. ABing away from your DPS. Drones to take out frigs.

You are all bitching because you overtank your Vargurs with Xl bosters because you are sissies.

Or it could just be because fitting an XL booster lets them free up another mid slot for something more useful than a tank mod.

Varg is only good as ov3rtank3d mission runner ir will never out dps out run or out perform machariel and it cant use 1400mm artys without making it a joke fit.

It is pretty fail as a t2 top of the line boat considering that rest of marauders are not plagued with joke of a powergrid, hopefully CCP will do something about marauders in this century.

Varg is only good as ov3rtank3d mission runner ir will never out dps out run or out perform machariel and it cant use 1400mm artys without making it a joke fit.

It is pretty fail as a t2 top of the line boat considering that rest of marauders are not plagued with joke of a powergrid, hopefully CCP will do something about marauders in this century.

Well, pirate battleships are supposed to be top-DPS boats so your argument is invalid.

And in missions, 1400 mms are the joke to begin with. I did fly Machariel and don't remember a single mission when artillery performed better than autocannons. Ammo saving was obviously better, but ISK/hr - never.

In this regard the argument about fielding 4 sentries is also a moot, unless someone wants to say they use both AC-s and sentries...

And lastly, from completness point of view it's indeed strange that this ship can't use long range guns of its class. But if you think it hurts your mission performance then you're doing them wrong. Even if it was indeed a case, this crippled Vargur still performs better than fully pimped Vindicator. (OK, on most missions, because nothing beats blasters in Damsel in Distress)

[....] there are army of ships that will out dps vargur in missions

So as i see it varg in nothing more than over tanked pigeon holed ship

it pg is serious issue not having option to fit 1400mm is nothing more than pathetic.

Name them please. A single Machariel does not make an "army". For sure Vindicator, Kronos nor Dominix do not belong to this list.


If you overtank your Varg then it is your problem and it is you doing it wrong.


I agreed: not being able to fit 1400mms is an issue with regard to being able to fit 1400mms. In respect to being able to competently finish the mission, the issue is non existent.

Strawman ---> this way

My point has been always the same: Vargur is one of the best performing missioning ships of those I used so far. Not being able to fit artillery is strange but is not a problem.

PWG is an issue if you god forbid try to do something different than shooting tier 1 rats.

And for a T2 battleship it does suck when pirate AND faction ship are able to out class it

It literally don't bring anything to table worth mentioning or worth invested skill points in marauders that will make you BETTER mission runner than using some other ships.

EFT warrioring looks fun

Tru dat. Though it gets old very fast.

No, really. If you want to make me convinced, convince me by actual performance figures. This is not the first such dispute I've been to and probably not the last and the thing is, I don't give a damn about stats analysis. I only care about what really matters: how a ship performs in game. You still didn't make your case on these terms.

A mach outperforms a vargur

10/10 angels get eaten with mach

A mach outperforms a vargur,

I would hazard to say most of the navy battleships would also outperform the vargur in level 4s. Would also say Dominix (regular T1) would outperform.

"Poor range". In the same sentence with Mach... OK, now I understand you, but you should look into how falloff works and what is the proper way of fiting AC Mach/Varg.

I know exactly how falloff works and I can tell you that a varg cannot compete with a domi that can fully apply 850+ DPS at 90km range

Well =/ numbers don't lie, only way for that to happen if that you're not flying the domi as it should be.

I can't artificially make my vargur do more dps than is physically enabled by game mechanics so if the dominix has more dps past a certain range, it has more dps past that range.

This thread is out of control...

It got out of control at what... page 1?

Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation?

i can put the same question to you in the opposite direction.

What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.

Because it's your word without any kind of practical or theoretical backing, you don't need to fraps anything but if you're as good with numbers as you say then I'm sure you can convince me.

However at the moment I'm finding it very hard to see your side.

What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.

Just wanted to add for anyone else following this thread who has their eye on a Vargur and is now getting worried... it's a fine mission boat. More than fine, as a matter of fact. People are arguing about top-tier time efficiency here. If that's your goal, you probably already knew that you weren't headed for a Vargur. But for a solid salvage-as-you-go mission runner, Varg is a wonderful boat. Don't worry about the fact that you can't hit out to 100k... your tractors only go 48k anyway.

Not trying to nitpick here, but my Vargur using Barrage hits out to 100k. Of course you'd have to use a sensor booster for targetting things that far away.

And of course the hull is sexy as hell.

I accept this is anecdotal, but a very good friend and Cop mate of mine owns a Mach and a Vargur and I was telling him about this thread on Vent last night. he told me that he never uses the Mach any more because the Vargur does everything the Mach does and uses half the ammo. He uses an 800mm AC fit and it spanks the NPCs silly in Lvl 4s.

We all mission together and I've seen how fast the Vargur chews through mobs - it's a very good ship for Lvl 4 PVE.

Make of that what you will.

As regards your question Tsukino, can you fly a Mach & a Vargur yourself? Had you considered doing some comparisons between the ships in mission completion times etc? just wondering what data you'd want to see to quantify 'best', even though that's really subjective.

I just find having to fly within 50km to do any significant damage [....] my domi has been shooting for x seconds already while i have yet to start[....]

I tend not to shoot when I'm in deep falloff since it's a gigantic waste of ammo, many missions will have spawns over 50km away and npcs are not very fast.

I just find having to fly within 50km to do any significant damage to anything but angels highly limiting, when you can use barrage for angels its a bit better but even still every mission that spawns anything in separate blob becomes a pain. Whenever i fly a turret ship i always have the fact that my domi has been shooting for x seconds already while i have yet to start in the back of my mind

The level of "wasting" is debatable but I accept your choice. But I please you to accept the fact that underwhelming results you are getting are because of your choices, not because given ship is inherently bad.

never said the ship was bad, you are doing reduced damage in deep falloff, the time you save doing 300 DPS on approach for 10 seconds or so isn't worth it to me. Even if I did make the choice to shoot all the time, my domi would still complete faster since it shoots at optimals.

Which is not a fact, it's your opinion which numbers do not support.

Time to complete the mission is opinion? Tick value is opinion? I am not talking about anything else.

Sorry, it's going nowhere... Fly safe.

It's an opinion because you have nothing concrete to back it up, no numbers, no screenshots, no videos, not even any theory to counter the numbers I gave you earlier in the thread.

If the vargur truly is faster than a domi, it would be easy to say why with the numbers to support that claim.

You said you were even better than me at numbers, time to show it.

Am I missing something or are Amarr ships really overwhelmingly better against Sanshas, especially once you cross into navy ship territory?

The redeemer's almost as good as the paladin for Sansha, Blood Raider, and rogue drone NPCs, roughly equal for Serpentis, EoM, Mordus, and mercenaries, and better for Angel and Guristas NPCs. It might be a black ops ship, but its got bonuses and a drone bay that make it worth taking into consideration.

Nope, you're not missing anything. The Paladin and/or Nightmare really are THAT GOOD against Sanshas. Nothing else comes close, although you could argue for the Raven Navy Issue.

If the reality does not conform to the theory then the reality must be wrong, eh?

You know, I don't care. You refuse to be convinced and it is your own problem. Cheers.

Edit: on second thought, last try. You accuse me of making numbers up and yet at the same time you yourself didn't provide any in-game hard data. What argument could convince you that Vargur is indeed one of the top performing ships?

I gave very real numbers from ship statistics based on real fittings and used them in very real context.

All you have done is said "vargur does this in x minutes"

You gave EFT stats. I gave in-game performance measures.

EFT stats don't lie

You have no evidence at all of what you said.

EFT stats donGÇÖt lie

Assuming no implants

Domi does 880 fully projected DPS to 87km of which 800 is immune to any kind of ewar (same thing cannot be said for varg)

Varg does a hilarious 450 dps with barrage at the same range so in fact a MWD is almost a requirement to flying one efficiently since it's not got the high base speed of a mach to make use of a deadspace 100mn AB.

The varg using faction short range projectile only starts breaking even with the domi at 27km, every single level 4 mission has spawns further than 27km.

Even if I use the most expensive implants available (pashans, +6%s) the varg still only breaks even at 40km

Adding a flight of lights (good luck with mediums not being blown up) it brings it up to 48km though that's still debatable whether or not they will survive that far out.

Now since the varg goes about 1.1kms that means you are regularly having to re-align and fly to your target to apply similar DPS the domi can at 87km

Yes you are right and that's why I'm confident when I say the domi is better: because I know how to read EFT and use it's DPS graph feature.

I think the domi I used in this simulation had 2 DLAs and 4x 1200mm artillery. I posted other fits in another thread where the domi can easily push 1k DPS at 70km+ ranges which honestly the vargur should be ashamed of.

Which allows you to safely ignore any empirical evidence. Oh well...


The only thing the Vargur can be ashamed of is its pilot.

I give up.

Do you even know what empirical means? Something has to be observed or experienced

The evidence I provided with simulation has every factor taken into account, you are free to challenge any point which you feel has not been addressed fully, in fact I encourage it since it will inject some credibility into your posts.

Strangely, this is precisely what I'm talking about since beginning: I have observed and measured the performance.


Stats are kind of evidence but they are not empirical. Performance is empirical.

As for having 0 evidence. You accuse me of lying. Thus I asked you, twice, what kind of evidence would you accept. I've got no answer.

And your fits are a prime example of people who cannot import EFT fits into a real situation, you would never use short range ammo on a sentry sniping fit, your drones hit out to 80km, so do your guns. Spike only.

Strangely, this is precisely what I'm talking about since beginning: I have observed and measured the performance.


Stats are kind of evidence but they are not empirical. Performance is empirical.

As for having 0 evidence. You accuse me of lying. Thus I asked you, twice, what kind of evidence would you accept. I've got no answer.

It's an opinion because you have nothing concrete to back it up, no numbers, no screenshots, no videos, not even any theory to counter the numbers I gave you earlier in the thread.

I didn't say that's not the case, I simply pointed out that the blanket statement of "Domi's better" isn't necessarily true. The very nature of projectiles shows that the further away from the target you get, the lower the dps will be, as they work in falloff (unlike for instance lasers, where you can hold a considerable dps for a very long time). Vargur even gives you a tracking bonus on hull, which makes it a clear close range ship, i.e. an AC boat and even if it weren't, your tractors go out to 40 km or so. That should give you an indication where the ship is ment to use - and in most of that area, it's superior to sentry Domi. That's all I was saying.

Yes, only YOU have observed this, you have nothing to back yourself except your word which in every way does not match statistical evidence provided by the simulation.

I have provided my evidence through simulation since I don't have the means to record my gameplay, you have provided almost nothing.

You said you were even better than me at simulation and using EFT: time to put your money where your mouth is.

I gave you a pretty clear list of things of what I would accept as suitable evidence.

Vargur does 712 DPS to 60km, domi does 958 to drone control range @ 84km

Kindly read what I wrote.

You have provided an argument only. The evidence is something which comes from actually playing. EFT graph is a tool, quite a good and useful one, but still a tool only and an indicator at best. It's not and never will be a final proof.

I said I'm better than you at theorycrafting. And I know all too well where it leads, which is why I'm not going to do it. If the EFT is the only proof you could accept, let's leave it that way.

You received numbers and denied them. Screenshots can be photoshopped. Videos can be fabricated. If you don't believe my word, why should you believe anything else I have produced?

I did and it just means the vargur loses out because it has to spend time flying to the rats while the domi is happily sitting at warp in point.

Also notice there's only a 100 paper DPS difference between the two and the vargur starts being outclassed at 27km.

ET is an accurate tool and if one knows how to extract the relevant information from it you can create a practically accurate simulation. You said you were better than me at this and have yet to even try. If you feel EFT is erroneous or inaccurate, please point out the parts which you can only determine by "actually flying the ship".

You said vargur completes missions xx% faster than the domi, which is about as good as me saying I'm Bill Gates.

Now all you're doing is making excuses NOT to provide any hard proof because you know it will sway things in favour of the domi.

http://shrani.si/f/3j/cZ/1hHKPxXQ/vargvdomi.jpg

Domi is your fit, Varg is mine, though I'd personally never use an MJD fit without at least one SeBo, given that the targetting range can quickly end up being very messy.

Domi doesn't need to move, you MJD and stay in the spot until the cooldown comes back up or the room is clear, whichever happens last. The only time where I won't be shooting is when I'm spooling up my MJD which takes all of 9 seconds, less time than it takes for you to change ammunition.

Tracking cannot make you do more DPS than your ship is fit for. EFT lists best case scenario and the DPS graph is an accurate representation of your DPS at different ranges.

I can choose my damage type too and it takes a far sight shorter time than the 10 second reload of projectiles.

You still haven't provided any statistical evidence that a vargur will outperform a domi in a mission environment fyi.

Screenshot evidence would, for me, be:

1. Agent conversation before accepting mission
2. Agent conversation after accepting mission
3. Local chat with timestamps on with you saying "Mission accepted"
3. Screencap of first room to verify it is indeed the correct mission
4. Screencap of mission description with the green "Mission complete" visible (try not to pick any missions that have a item objective to return).

Time must be visible on the neocom in all screenshots, as far as I'm aware there's no way to edit that time bar photoshopping.
Log must be open and visible in every screenshot.

Why is the target on a full horizontal velocity =S?

As you can see the domi has a 44km advantage over the varg and you've quite obviously got implants on the varg and none on the domi ;)