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Keith Planck
League of Extraordinary Equines
505
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Posted - 2013.07.16 04:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Terrible Powergrid Which Translates into terrible DPS and range Which turns into terrible completion time Which = terrible isk/hr
I'm pretty sure you can run a site faster with a machariel and coming back in a noctis; or just blitzing sites and skipping salvage.
Literally the only advantage the Vargur has is the tractor beam range and an unnecessary boost to tank. It can tank C4 sleeper sites but so can a machariel, and it can't even fit the 1400s needed to DPS them, or even a smartbomb.
Just... why CCP, why is the powergrid sooooooo terrible... It should be able to fit 1400s and a LARGE shield booster with at most 1 faction reactor control unit.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
309
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Posted - 2013.07.16 04:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
it was designed to work with autocannons, and it does that pretty well. and for the most part pirate battleships do more dps than their marauder counterparts. You can trust me, I have a monocole |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
490
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Posted - 2013.07.16 05:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
The Vargur is a lower DPS projection mach but with superior tank and the ability to salvage while you mission |
hellcane
Never Back Down
67
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Posted - 2013.07.16 06:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
You are fitting it wrong.
Fit it right and you have a ship that's on par with mach. |
Whitehound
1543
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Posted - 2013.07.16 06:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Better tracking and tank.
Marauders can be invented and manufactured anywhere in EVE, pirate ships have to be found as BPCs and these do not drop everywhere. Only because of the Vargur is the Machariel then so cheap. If you were to remove the Vargur from the game would the price for the Machariel easily triple and become a major ISK source for some alliances.
The Machariel is also over-powered and will likely see a nerf with the rebalancing, while the Marauders are said to see a conceptual change. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
122
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Posted - 2013.07.16 07:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Welp Pve... Vargur solos c5 anoms, machariel does not :| I only correct my own spelling. |
John Ratcliffe
Sausy Sausages
191
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Posted - 2013.07.16 09:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
hellcane wrote:You are fitting it wrong.
Fit it right and you have a ship that's on par with mach.
Yes. With less ammo use as well.
Plus +ºa change, plus c'est la m+¬me chose |
hmskrecik
TransMine Group German Information Network Alliance
90
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Posted - 2013.07.16 10:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:[....] the Marauders are said to see a conceptual change. Judging from history, this can be double edged sword.
But I agree, Vargur is damn fine ship as it is. |
Annunaki soldier
Segmentum Solar Nulli Secunda
80
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Posted - 2013.07.16 11:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
vargur is near the machariel when it comes to autocannons. Has better tank and if you forget salvaging for lower ticks (not that much of a difference though. About 3-4m ticks less) you can have better defence . Biggest strenght of vargur is tracking (and fact it cost to fit about 1bil less than a mach) Ride hard, live with passion-á |
stoicfaux
2950
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Posted - 2013.07.16 13:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
An RF ammo Vargur has the same DPS (and ranges) as a Mach. The Mach's advantage lies in being able to close the range faster and reduce DPS loss to falloff (~10% improvement in DPS for every ~11km closer you are.)
However, I ran those numbers before the TE nerf, but since the Vargur fit relies mostly on TCs, it should be a moot issue.
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hellcane
Never Back Down
67
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Posted - 2013.07.16 13:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
hmskrecik wrote:Whitehound wrote:[....] the Marauders are said to see a conceptual change. Judging from history, this can be double edged sword. But I agree, Vargur is damn fine ship as it is. It will be a while, but it *should* be a favorable balance pass. All the marauders need something special since the noctis gutted their intended purpose. |
Inserith Peon
Peon's Ironic Scanning Service
3
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Posted - 2013.07.16 13:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:An RF ammo Vargur has the same DPS (and ranges) as a Mach. The Mach's advantage lies in being able to close the range faster and reduce DPS loss to falloff (~10% improvement in DPS for every ~11km closer you are.)
However, I ran those numbers before the TE nerf, but since the Vargur fit relies mostly on TCs, it should be a moot issue.
What's the fit with TCs? Have always ran with TEs in the past, surely filling mids with TCs ruins your tank, assuming a shield booster + invul setup.
And to OP, Vargur uses nearly half the ammo of a Mach and can put out 1300-1500 DPS with 3 Gyros and 5% or higher implants... slightly slower but not much. |
hellcane
Never Back Down
67
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Posted - 2013.07.16 13:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Inserith Peon wrote:stoicfaux wrote:An RF ammo Vargur has the same DPS (and ranges) as a Mach. The Mach's advantage lies in being able to close the range faster and reduce DPS loss to falloff (~10% improvement in DPS for every ~11km closer you are.)
However, I ran those numbers before the TE nerf, but since the Vargur fit relies mostly on TCs, it should be a moot issue.
What's the fit with TCs? Have always ran with TEs in the past, surely filling mids with TCs ruins your tank, assuming a shield booster + invul setup. And to OP, Vargur uses nearly half the ammo of a Mach and can put out 1300-1500 DPS with 3 Gyros and 5% or higher implants... slightly slower but not much. Usually 2 TC leaving you a 4 slot tank, or 3 slot tank with prop mod when the need arises. |
stoicfaux
2950
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Posted - 2013.07.16 13:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Inserith Peon wrote:stoicfaux wrote:An RF ammo Vargur has the same DPS (and ranges) as a Mach. The Mach's advantage lies in being able to close the range faster and reduce DPS loss to falloff (~10% improvement in DPS for every ~11km closer you are.)
However, I ran those numbers before the TE nerf, but since the Vargur fit relies mostly on TCs, it should be a moot issue.
What's the fit with TCs? Have always ran with TEs in the past, surely filling mids with TCs ruins your tank, assuming a shield booster + invul setup. And to OP, Vargur uses nearly half the ammo of a Mach and can put out 1300-1500 DPS with 3 Gyros and 5% or higher implants... slightly slower but not much. http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/59297-Vargur-Level-4-Minmatar-Space-Max-Gank-Min-Tank.html
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/58393-Machariel-Level-4-Blitzer-MWD-Web-EW-Drones-Minmatar-Space.html
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Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
253
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Posted - 2013.07.16 14:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
I strove my entire EvE life to get a Machariel, and after about a year I sold it for my Vargur. The Machariel's a beautiful murder machine, but it's demanding to fly. The Vargur has less ammo consumption, better tank, comparable kill speed, and the massive time saved of not having to jump back with a Noctis. Yes the sensors suck, yes the powergrid is awful for anything but autocannons, and it's not as fast as the absurdly fast Machariel.
I'm interested to see what their plan is for the Marauders, but also concerned it's going to mess with my new baby. |
stoicfaux
2950
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Posted - 2013.07.16 15:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vargur's PG is pretty tight, probably overly so. If want to fit a micro jump drive or an MWD, you have to jump through hoops and/or use an undersized shield booster, and/or not use Projectile riggings, never mind artillery.
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Ersahi Kir
Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance
212
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Posted - 2013.07.16 16:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
People fly the vargur because it's a sexy tempest hull. |
Kosetzu
Aeons Multiplied
73
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Posted - 2013.07.16 22:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
I can't really see how the PG is much of a problem for a Vargur. You only fit 4 guns, that removes a lot of the PG required for say a Machariel that needs more weapon PG. I've never had any problem fitting my Vargur at all. If your fittings skills aren't top notch should you really be flying this ship to begin with? There's plenty of ships/fits that need very good skills to function, but people don't hate on them for that.
If you're flying a ship worth as much as Marauder you should at least pimp it some with at least faction damage mods, prop mod and resist mod(s) imo. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.07.17 00:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kosetzu wrote:I can't really see how the PG is much of a problem for a Vargur. You only fit 4 guns, that removes a lot of the PG required for say a Machariel that needs more weapon PG.
Machariel can fit 7 1200mm artillery, MWD/MJD, XLSB, and have almost 1500mw to spare. Vargur can't even fit 4 1200mm artillery without needing an ACR rig or RCU in the lows, and if you tack on MWD/MJD with a large, not XL, plain old L, shield booster you're looking at needing either two T2 ACR rigs or two T1s and a PDS to fit all of that.
The vargur may or may not have intended solely to be an AC platform, but that doesn't mean that comparing it to the machariel and saying, "Nope, no power grid issues" will work very well.
Kosetzu wrote:If you're flying a ship worth as much as Marauder you should at least pimp it some with at least faction damage mods, prop mod and resist mod(s) imo.
Maybe an officer reactor control or power diagnostic system too? |
stoicfaux
2951
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Posted - 2013.07.17 01:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
With all V skills, a Vargur with 4x 800AC IIs uses 7920 out of 9875 powergrid. That's 1955 PG left for stuff.
XL Shield Booster: 500 to 550 PG 100 MN AB: 625 to 688 PG 100 MN MWD: 1250 to 1500 PG Micro Jump Drive: 1375 PG
At first glance you can easily fit a single prop mod and an XLSB. However, if you add any Projectile rigs, your AC pg usage increases: * 1 projectile rig: 8316 PG used, leaving 1,559 PG * 2 projectile rigs: 8731.8 used, leaving 1,143.2 PG
However, if you only have projectile rigging at IV: * 1 projectile rig: 1,479.8 PG free * 2 projectile rigs: 976.1 PG free
Basically, you're limited to one projectile rig at most. Even then, if you want to use a MJD or MWD, then you need Projectile Rigging V and/or an undersized shield booster (I use a Pithum C-Type MSB which uses 12 PG.)
On the plus side, the PG implant doesn't conflict with projectile DPS implants.
As for artillery: * 1400 IIs: 12,870 out of 9875 PG * 1200 IIs: 10,890 out of 9875 PG If you slap on 2xAncillary Current Routers, you can mount 1200's and have 1,058.8 to work with. Which means no projectile rigs and an AB plus an undersized shield booster.
It's not the end of the world, but it is pretty annoying.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
298
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Posted - 2013.07.17 02:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:hellcane wrote:You are fitting it wrong.
Fit it right and you have a ship that's on par with mach. Yes. With less ammo use as well.
Serious issue with a mach, that thing is always out of ammo. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
132
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Posted - 2013.07.17 09:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Serious issue with a mach, that thing is always out of ammo.
Not only does the Vargur consume less ammo than the Mach, it can also carry more.
(Don't undererstimate the cargo capacity of a marauder with cargohold expansions. It's ideal for the nomadic lifestyle and can even carry a shuttle for quick trips.) |
Whitehound
1549
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Posted - 2013.07.17 10:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Onictus wrote:Serious issue with a mach, that thing is always out of ammo. Not only does the Vargur consume less ammo than the Mach, it can also carry more. (Don't undererstimate the cargo capacity of a marauder with cargohold expansions. It's ideal for the nomadic lifestyle and can even carry a shuttle for quick trips.) Not sure if the majority will see this as a good thing when one needs to point out the size of the cargohold when comparing two battleship-sized hulls.
The Machariel has got 100mbits (125m3) drone bandwitdh, which for a non-designated droneboat is quite a lot. The Kronos (Gallente Marauder) has got only 75mbits and so has the Vargur. I hope it changes with the next rebalancing step and for the Machariel to lose some of it and for the Kronos to get some more. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
tayjor
Regional Building Company
9
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Posted - 2013.07.17 10:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
When I tanked "Smash the Supplier" with my Vargur without warping out, I put my Mach in the hanger. That ended the argument for me. |
BlackPlague
Dark Light Inc Caretakers
0
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Posted - 2013.07.17 20:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
Both are very fine ships
As a lazy 2 char running lvl 4 missioner a 800mm vargur or 800 /1400 machariel is an excellent partner for my Paladin/Kronos other pilot.
Play style dictates fit and I rarely fit propulsion mods just sit there and dish it out. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
166
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Posted - 2013.07.17 21:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Exploited Engineer wrote:Not only does the Vargur consume less ammo than the Mach, it can also carry more.
(Don't undererstimate the cargo capacity of a marauder with cargohold expansions. It's ideal for the nomadic lifestyle and can even carry a shuttle for quick trips.) Not sure if the majority will see this as a good thing when one needs to point out the size of the cargohold when comparing two battleship-sized hulls.
Depending on your goal it might actually be something of a deciding factor that a fully expanded vargur can pack 3875m3 cargo. On the one hand iIf you put a solid T2 frigate in it you can use it to blitz L1 missions (if for some reason you actually need to do them somewhere) and L2 missions before using the vargur to clean up L3s and L4s for a bit of quick rep grinding. Of course on the other hand the paladin packs almost 50% more (6162m3), doesn't use ammo for all intents and purposes if you stick with T1 crystals, and as such can pack a lot more mods to help out with whatever situations may arise.
On the gripping hand a well-flown T3 ship would likely trump either in that role so their usefulness/validity in such a position is likely debatable for most people. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
387
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Posted - 2013.07.18 14:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Varg is only good as ov3rtank3d mission runner ir will never out dps out run or out perform machariel and it cant use 1400mm artys without making it a joke fit.
It is pretty fail as a t2 top of the line boat considering that rest of marauders are not plagued with joke of a powergrid, hopefully CCP will do something about marauders in this century. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
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Trinkets friend
T.R.I.A.D
1042
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Posted - 2013.07.19 10:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
I can complete level 4's easily with a DG large shield booster, AB, T2-rigged DPS Vargur fit. It does better than a Mach.
Falloff, bitches. Rat specific tank. Aggroing things properly. ABing away from your DPS. Drones to take out frigs.
You are all bitching because you overtank your Vargurs with Xl bosters because you are sissies. Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Anfauglith
Retired Soldier Ltd.
3
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Posted - 2013.07.19 16:52:00 -
[29] - Quote
This is my Vargur and yes, I like to be semi-afk or wander off to something else That is why it's capstable and you don't have to worry about aggroing this and that. Oh, and with a set of Crystals you REALLY don't have to worry about being too drunk
[Vargur, Missions] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script Shield Boost Amplifier II Cap Recharger II
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II Small Tractor Beam II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Projectile Burst Aerator II |
Tsukino Stareine
The Red Circle Inc.
518
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Posted - 2013.07.19 17:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
pls tell me where you mission so i can gank you when you're afk |
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