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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1237
   |
Posted - 2013.07.24 15:12:00 -
[61] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.
does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?
the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?
In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
302
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 16:17:00 -
[62] - Quote
You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.
A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.
If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.
Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1238
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:34:00 -
[63] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.
A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.
If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.
Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.
Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.
and yet if ecm is SO MUCH FUN for these pilots, why doesnt everyone fly an ecm ship? Cus it is in fact dull and a ****** way to win or effect a fight.
Those people like being a **** and thats fine this game has plenty of ways to be a ****, but they all flock to ecm because its cheap it works insanely well and its low skill THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE FOR EVE THOUGH
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
720
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.
A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.
If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.
Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.
Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.
You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.
Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.
Like Muad said, the idea that any noob can roll a dice and make you worthless for 20 seconds is just a bad idea. Overpowered or not, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pvp mechanics and the majority of the pvpers (people that actually PvP, not the pretenders) don't like it. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
302
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:48:00 -
[65] - Quote
I didn't say I liked it, or it was a good mechanic, in fact im sure ive said before its a BAD mechanic however here I said - remember the hulls need looking at in conjunction with the modules. Imagine a rook with 2-3 spare mids and rigs, that'd be some sick monster.
Further, a noob in a falcon is just as dangerous as a noob in an arazu. Jammed or damped to hell, you're just as dead. Likewise the TD hulls. |
Whitehound
1660
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 17:54:00 -
[66] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.
Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.
Like Muad said, the idea that any noob can roll a dice and make you worthless for 20 seconds is just a bad idea. Overpowered or not, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pvp mechanics and the majority of the pvpers (people that actually PvP, not the pretenders) don't like it.
He is not acting as if ... but the word is arguing. You have to say the he is arguing as if ....
One is acting when one loses a Stabber to two Falcons and then uses one's frustration to make a point.
ECM fits in just fine. Stop voicing your frustration over a mechanic. You are not the first one to have lost a ship to a gang with Falcons.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1238
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Diesel47 wrote:You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.
Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.
Like Muad said, the idea that any noob can roll a dice and make you worthless for 20 seconds is just a bad idea. Overpowered or not, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pvp mechanics and the majority of the pvpers (people that actually PvP, not the pretenders) don't like it. He is not acting as if ... but the word is arguing. You have to say the he is arguing as if .... One is acting when one loses a Stabber to two Falcons and then uses one's frustration to make a point. ECM fits in just fine. Stop voicing your frustration over a mechanic. You are not the first one to have lost a ship to a gang with Falcons.
So your opinion is that he shouldn't be auguring at all because of a random km.
Dieing to two skilled recons is fine and i think we all know it.
its when a 10 man gang fights another 10 man gang and one side has two ecm ships and the other teem cant no anything unless they waste all their slots with eccm and die anyway due to horrible fits. Sounds legit.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
302
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:19:00 -
[68] - Quote
Actually I was arguing that claims of permajam this and permajam that are either
A) greatly exaggerated
B) very (un)lucky/lacking appropriate counter skills
C) supreme glass hulls you can quickly chase off.
D) likely all of the above
As well as the hulls that use it need attention if the mechanic sees change as they are balanced around the stacking of chance based mods. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1238
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:22:00 -
[69] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Actually I was arguing that claims of permajam this and permajam that are either
A) greatly exaggerated
B) very (un)lucky/lacking appropriate counter skills
C) supreme glass hulls you can quickly chase off.
D) likely all of the above
As well as the hulls that use it need attention if the mechanic sees change as they are balanced around the stacking of chance based mods.
and what you are missing is that the smaller the gang the stronger ecm is. Dice be damned.
large gangs dont use it because they cant jam everything effectively by sharing targets effectively .
ever been in a 5v5 with one ecm ship? or even one per side? outrageously stupid and unfun.
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
302
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:26:00 -
[70] - Quote
Again - I never said it was fun and of course it is annoying, however if appropriate ammo existed for all weapons it'd be less annoying.
The main point again is you CANNOT revisit the mechanic without doing the hulls designed to use it at the same time. |
Whitehound
1663
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:44:00 -
[71] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:So your opinion is that he shouldn't be auguring at all because of a random km.
Yes, because his frustration over a recent loss will not allow him to make a sound argument, which can be seen in his comments.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:48:00 -
[72] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Meditril wrote:The main problem with ECM is its very long cycle time of 20 seconds. This is longer than some fights and therefore overpowered. In my opinion ECM cycle time should be reduced to 5 seconds while also reducing cap usage to 1/4. This would make ECM more smooth. If the enemy get a hit on you than at least after 5 seconds you have another chance to lock him up if he fails his cycle and maybe do some damage before he gets the next lucky hit. It would make ECM over-powered when fitted to frigates that are jamming battleships. The locking time then takes too long and a battleship would have no chance to lock onto small stuff.
If anyone is using RSDs and related drones sub-BS ships would also be in trouble as well. One thing I've contemplated for a couple years now is using arazus with RSDs and ECM drones, and unless ECM drones already have a faster cycle time I could see this making them much more able to lock down ships if/when ECM drones got a comparable cycle time reduction. What competent ECM and RSD pilots could achieve together starts at evil and gets progressively worse. |
Whitehound
1663
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 18:54:00 -
[73] - Quote
Shereza wrote:If anyone is using RSDs and related drones sub-BS ships would also be in trouble as well. One thing I've contemplated for a couple years now is using arazus with RSDs and ECM drones, and unless ECM drones already have a faster cycle time I could see this making them much more able to lock down ships if/when ECM drones got a comparable cycle time reduction. What competent ECM and RSD pilots could achieve together starts at evil and gets progressively worse.
It is not an uncommon fitting. It is known as the "Gayrazu". 
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
720
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:21:00 -
[74] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:So your opinion is that he shouldn't be auguring at all because of a random km. Yes, because his frustration over a recent loss will not allow him to make a sound argument, which can be seen in his comments.
You need to stop imagining things. The ISD already visited this thread once, you're pushing your luck.
Firstly, I've not had any losses to ECM in a very long time, I tend to stay away from fights with ECM. You really think I made this thread because of a stabber loss more than a month ago? Get real.
Secondly, you go around spouting that people shouldn't be able to voice their opinions about the game besides yourself? That is downright arrogant.
and thirdly, you have no PvP experience what so ever. Stop acting like you are some kind of resident expert in every thread. |
Whitehound
1664
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:31:00 -
[75] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Firstly, I've not had many losses to ECM in general, I tend to stay away from fights with ECM.
So now you are not having a problem with ECM. Why then make one up?
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1240
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:33:00 -
[76] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Firstly, I've not had many losses to ECM in general, I tend to stay away from fights with ECM. So now you are not having a problem with ECM. Why then make one up?
dude, what the hell are you talking about.
he just said right there he died in fights with ecm to the point he avoided them completely and i presume because it was not enjoyable
You can lose and still think you gave it a good try, ecm stops you even having that and still losing everything
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
720
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:38:00 -
[77] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Firstly, I've not had many losses to ECM in general, I tend to stay away from fights with ECM. So now you are not having a problem with ECM. Why then make one up?
There is a point in an argument where the losing party packs up his bags and leaves to save face.
As the nice person that I am, I'm informing you that now is the time to go before you embarrass yourself further. |
Whitehound
1664
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:51:00 -
[78] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:dude, what the hell are you talking about.
he just said right there he died in fights with ecm to the point he avoided them completely and i presume because it was not enjoyable
You can lose and still think you gave it a good try, ecm stops you even having that and still losing everything
And what he does is dumb, he needs to be protected from it, or what is it you are trying to say?
I think it is smart of him to stay away. If he does not like ECM, does not like to fit against it, then he is certainly free to do so. We all have our preference. It is however no reason to demand the removal of ECM. He is simply trolling.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Whitehound
1664
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 20:53:00 -
[79] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Whitehound wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Firstly, I've not had many losses to ECM in general, I tend to stay away from fights with ECM. So now you are not having a problem with ECM. Why then make one up? There is a point in an argument where the losing party packs up his bags and leaves to save face. As the nice person that I am, I'm informing you that now is the time to go before you embarrass yourself further.
Keep trolling. I will give you opposition on every comment, because I like ECM.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1240
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 21:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:dude, what the hell are you talking about.
he just said right there he died in fights with ecm to the point he avoided them completely and i presume because it was not enjoyable
You can lose and still think you gave it a good try, ecm stops you even having that and still losing everything And what he does is dumb, he needs to be protected from it, or what is it you are trying to say? I think it is smart of him to stay away. If he does not like ECM, does not like to fit against it, then he is certainly free to do so. We all have our preferences. It is however no reason to demand the removal of ECM. He is simply trolling.
The piont is if ecm is on the field you either gimp your ship the point of uselessness with eccm or gamble you get a window to lock and do something, which in a small gang situation is detrimental to a 'good' fight' which is what people want, win or lose when they log in.
ECM effects are unbalanced, the effect is intensely dull and uninspiring and yet available so very easily.
no one has the right to complain about fair odds when a griffin of 2 months jams out most of a gang for half a fight, NOTHING is more powerful and its only a god damn miracle more people arnt doing it.
combined with ecm drones, its the number one instant pvp floppy ****, shortly followed by a titan low sec portal
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Whitehound
1667
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 22:28:00 -
[81] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:The piont is if ecm is on the field you either gimp your ship the point of uselessness with eccm or gamble you get a window to lock and do something, which in a small gang situation is detrimental to a 'good' fight' which is what people want, win or lose when they log in.
ECM effects are unbalanced, the effect is intensely dull and uninspiring and yet available so very easily.
One can complain about paper by pointing out how terribly weak it is and that it should never beat rock. You will still lose.
When you do not prepare for e-war then you might as well not bring weapons either. You cannot go into a fight and expect your opponents to fight by your rules. It is your weakness and it is what they will attack first.
You have to accept your weaknesses and overcome them, or you have to accept defeat until the moment you do. This is part of what this game teaches you.
5-year old kids then want to play rock-paper-scissors without the paper. We think of them as cute. When adults do it then it becomes pathetic.
Think about it.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
720
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 23:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
You are arguing against something you think was said either because you
A. Didn't read the thread and just jump to conclusions.
or B. Are unable to comprehend english.
Go reread the thread and OP and realize how wrong and misguided your last 10 posts have been.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
Amarrian Commandos
1241
|
Posted - 2013.07.24 23:10:00 -
[83] - Quote
dont just make posts about paper stats.
people play pvp a lot and i use all sizes of ships i wouldn't bring it up if i didn't think something was out of feel of the game and effecting an otherwise useful ship class.
i bring this up because i think as a pilot that flies all sizes of ships, it is not in keeping with the general flow of the game which i have been witness to for a while.
only your opinion matters theres no right or wrong
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Sakaron Hefdover
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 00:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
How about we change it so that it has a chance to turn off highs rather than blocking the lock. EG
If I have a 20% chance to jam someone and he has 5 High slots modules, then every time the ecm cycles, about 1 module is turned off. The jam event would have to run against each module individually though. That way It keeps its random feature, and isn't completely hit or miss
Keep the long cycle time though, having to turn on modules every 5 seconds would be a pain in the ass |
Eka Lawrencia
Different Drummers
1
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 00:34:00 -
[85] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:
You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.
Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.
Then any competent falcon is ineffective because he can be damped down quite easily from way away, which neutralizes him.
Competence = Ineffective. Something is wrong with your arguments. |
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
168
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 01:46:00 -
[86] - Quote
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but is it not the farther you are out from the primary furball the greater the chance their is of someone MWD'ing in the opposite direction of you and the jumping back on top of you? If that is accurate then wouldn't having a frigate or two with ECM drones, tackle, and decent (not good, not great, decent) DPS potentially bring a bag of bad juju for said falcon? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
302
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 06:31:00 -
[87] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:
no one has the right to complain about fair odds when a griffin of 2 months jams out most of a gang for half a fight, NOTHING is more powerful and its only a god damn miracle more people arnt doing it
How is that any different from a malus or a crucifier doing the same, apart from psychologically? The effect is the same.
Why do you think condors are ripping it up with TD rather than ECM? It's certainly not because no-one has realised how awesome ECM is... Why are so many ninjas rocking arbitrators rather than blackbirds?
Hell an unrigged griffin at all V (hardly 2 months out the door) has < 50% odds to jam another griffin with a meta 4 mod and two distortion amps. You seem to have confirmation bias against ECM - when it works its REALLY annoying - you never know when it doesn't - and in the current age, it's relatively common to miss jams - unless you're outclassing the enemy (recon vs frig). More people aren't doing it because its a Hail Mary play - better to bring something more survivable and consistent.
ECM is annoying - if it works - however it's just as annoying for the user when it doesn't. Consistency in effect would be handy but it's sure as hell not the overpowered monster it used to be - its hard a series of nerfs in the form of range loss, boats getting higher sensor strengths, the sensor comp skills. Frankly these days TD/damps are a far greater threat in terms of consistency.
There's absolutely an argument it's sucky to have a random chance and a binary effect, but trying to add to that the idea that it is overpowered in the current metagame is shaky ground. There's a case for more FoF ammo types as I said, but that's about it. |
Whitehound
1670
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 06:43:00 -
[88] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:...
only your opinion matters theres no right or wrong
Sure there is right and wrong. OP clearly states his dislike with ECM, attacks everyone who does not share his opinion, and because he thinks ECM is right? No, he thinks ECM is wrong.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
The Marmite Collective
57
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 07:13:00 -
[89] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Cordo Draken wrote:Diesel47 wrote:Rofl, doesn't change the fact that your idea really sucks. And you can't support your idea by chestbeating about killing a 3 month old noob in akianavas a starter system some 2 years ago.  Nobody suggested straight up removing ECM altogether, I don't know where you made that up. But for old times sake, are you still sitting in hisec killing the industrials mate? Thought you'd give that up and actually do something that is atleast a little bit challenging by now...  You mean like being in over 100 wars, fraking up large Coalitions & Alliances? Or like you in the arse end of nowhere doing little to nothing but crying over Falcons... Again. CCP has made efforts to appease the un-appeasable whines of ECM. It's right where it needs to be. And it's clear that you don't want to have to consider the challenge (which really isn't that hard) of getting around ECM. After a few years I'd of thought even you would have figured it out by now. FYI, if you're going to argue that an idea sux, why don't you provide an actual intelligent argument as to why you think so. After all isn't that why you're here? To explore and debate Ideas? Or is that as well too much of a challenge? I don't why you are so bitter. You need to chill. Maybe you've been in hi-sec too long, because your suggestion is something somebody who never played the game would make. But I guess station camping jita waiting for industrials to come out isn't really "playing" the game now is it. 
Look man, you obviously can't read a Kill board, and as others have said, you just attack those that have knowledge on how to combat ECM, and see ECM as just another mechanic that enhances the Game. Seriously, an Arazu can RSD you to the point you can't target anything outside of 10km, but you don't see people whining about it.
Ever hear the term "Adapt or Die". Seriously, get a clue. You can't even debate ideas posted here with an intelligent counter, which is why your thread here is a fail.
Might as well throw a lock on it, it's just like thousands of other going off on a whine fest.
eëÆWhomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my AutocannonseëÆ eÉà |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
721
|
Posted - 2013.07.25 07:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
^^ Look man, I don't take carebears and hi-sec industrial corp griefers seriously with their bad and often wrong assertions. Get good and then you might be worth listening to.
Shereza wrote:Correct me if I'm mistaken, but is it not the farther you are out from the primary furball the greater the chance their is of someone MWD'ing in the opposite direction of you and the jumping back on top of you? If that is accurate then wouldn't having a frigate or two with ECM drones, tackle, and decent (not good, not great, decent) DPS potentially bring a bag of bad juju for said falcon?
As many have failed to realize, this thread is not about how to counter ECM.
But anyways, wtf are you talking about? How are you going to burn away from a falcon and then warp ontop of it? Either you need a fleetmate already next to said falcon, a wreck or something (unlikely), or have somebody probe him out and warp you to him.
And say by some feat you manage to reach the falcon. And you also manage to lock on before he warps, he will just jam you and then leave. |
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