The main problem with ECM is its very long cycle time of 20 seconds. This is longer than some fights and therefore overpowered. In my opinion ECM cycle time should be reduced to 5 seconds while also reducing cap usage to 1/4. This would make ECM more smooth. If the enemy get a hit on you than at least after 5 seconds you have another chance to lock him up if he fails his cycle and maybe do some damage before he gets the next lucky hit.

There is a word for it: ugly. Follow the link and read its meaning.

It is an ugly mechanic, but sometimes EVE gets ugly.

Ugly is when you get backstabbed by a friend who takes everything you own.

In a binary system having both sides complaining seems about as balanced as you can get really. So until and if CCP can find a way to make ecm a % function the mechanic is what it is.

@ Whitehound: We are trying to have an intelligent discussion about a game mechanic here, not unimportant nonsense that changes nothing. Stop posting nonsense, kthx.

This is pretty much what ECM does. One minute you have fun fighting someone and then he backstabs you with a Falcon and takes your ship.

:facepalm:

That has to be the worst argument I've ever heard for bad game design.

The word still is ugly and not bad. It is an ugly game design.

Other things are pretty or prettier. Use many sensor dampeners and it gets just as ugly if not uglier. Then combine ECM with scan res dampening...

Whatever, bad, ugly, weak, sad.. it makes no difference. Back to my original point that all your posts contribute nothing of value.

It would be preferred if you stop spamming threads with nonsense nobody cares to read. thx.

It would be preferred if you stop spamming threads with nonsense nobody cares to read. thx.

As it turns out, percentages are rules and math driven. Whoda thunk?

An example:

If you are ECM'd, you can fight it by fitting ECCM, training sensor comp skills, using Sensor Integrity info boosts. If you can't do that, atleast you have the option of trying to kill whatever is tackling you and warp off. (Auto-targeting missiles, drones retain lock after being ECM'd, maybe you have friends that aren't ECM'd.)

The plain truth is that the mechanics of ECM altogether are a bad idea. Every single day there are threads made (like this one) that complain about how **** poor ECM is.
-- snipped--

Then why the hell did you start another one?

ECM is fine, your tears in mildly amusing (lose a fight to someone using ewar?), but overall I rate this a 0/10.

First, the most obvious counter is to have YOUR OWN ECM in fleet. This is why it's fairly balanced. Every one has the option to use it or not.
Second, ECM is almost always primaried. This is also a balancing factor to some degree. And it is the main reason why many peope refuse to fly Falcons and such.

The 20 second jam cycle also works against the ECM pilot. If he cannot get a jam, as mentioned, sometimes the fight is over and he is the first casualty.

I think it would be bad game design if Space Ships didn't have ECM.

As it turns out, percentages are rules and math driven. Whoda thunk?

An example:

If you are ECM'd, you can fight it by fitting ECCM, training sensor comp skills, using Sensor Integrity info boosts. If you can't do that, atleast you have the option of trying to kill whatever is tackling you and warp off. (Auto-targeting missiles, drones retain lock after being ECM'd, maybe you have friends that aren't ECM'd.)

ECM should reduce your max locked targets so multitasking would actually be worth training.

It would make sense if ECM reduced the ship's max locked targets stat, but Multitasking wouldn't help unless the ECM actually affected the character, which is a bit of a stretch.

It's obvious you didn't read the OP.

So, what you're really trying to say is that you don't want ECM around to jack up your Logi Rep chain? So then people start bitchin about Logi's being OP because they're now near impossible to break.

ECM is chance base for a reason... It works just fine.

LOL, at the 5 second cycle time proposal. Aside from that not helping your theory at all, how then does the Projected ECM skill then get applied? Get it down to a 2 second cycle? Lol

Seriously, 5 years later and people still complaining about this, when there are ways to combat it... They're just too lazy to plan ahead.

CCP, instead of further trying to appease the lazy minded, how about developing a Manual Override mode on turrets, where they can fire weapons with a point amd click of the mouse... Without the ships computer helping them Track, estimate range, lead... THAT, would be the only way around that. And the Manual Override could only be used for turreted weapons. Let them see how hard that is... But hey, at least then they could feel like they weren't completely Useless.

Cheers

I don't know if you are being serious but "manual override mode" is just stupid. It would never work, eve isn't some FPS.

How can you complain about other peoples proposals where the one you put is equally as bad.

I don't know if you are being serious but "manual override mode" is just stupid. It would never work, eve isn't some FPS.

How can you complain about other peoples proposals where the one you put is equally as bad.

Widows vs Vargurs... ECM vs low sensor strength ships. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n4dV2QrytI

My solution to ECM.............

Change the effect from completely breaking lock of everything on a ship to each successful activation effectively reduces the amount of targets you can lock. (Also this would mean that ECM strength would have to be boosted, however before you kill me listen up)

So lets say a ship can lock 7 targets. A falcon decloaks and locks you successfully getting 2 jams off from different jammers at the same time.
Now you can only lock 5 targets. Effectively freeing up 2 ships but enemy ship can still lock 5 targets. Now if there are only 4 enemy ships you would lose lock on 2 of them, but since you can still lock 5 total, you would be able to immediately lock back those ships. Now if there were 9 ships you would lose lock on 2 of the 7 but keep 5 others locked.

This would help nerf the small gang ECM problem while boosting Large fleet effectiveness. In large fleets say you have 10 falcons and 20 enemy logi. With boosted ECM strength you could effectively cause each logi to lose lockj on 3 targets. This would enable the ability to effectively switch targets and cause all mannor of chaos, but at the same time a ship would not be COMPLETELY out of a fight if jammed.

Now a ship would be completely out if it had more activated jams on it than lockable targets.

I hope my explaination made sense..... whatcha think?

Wild

ECM should reduce your max locked targets so multitasking would actually be worth training.

ECM should turn off randomly picked active modules, number of mods and duration specified by skills, equipment and gear used and a moderate random modifier. New mods and duration rolled per each cycle.

Flight of ECM drones would be able to shut off 1-2 mods for only a short duration.

How hard is it to bring your own ECM?

How hard is it to bring your own ECM?

Oh hai Diesel... Look, I know you still hate from all those times I killed you back in Aki, but try to be more grown up in the forum. By the way, a manual override makes more sense logically and would be more immersive than just trying to wipe out a strategic mechanic making Eve less immersive and have less options to actually be strategic.

The OP mentioned wanting ideas, I gave one... An apparent outside the box one. Perhaps that's what is needed. Simple and easy after all is NOT what is wanted by smart players and CCP.

ECM should turn off randomly picked active modules, number of mods and duration specified by skills, equipment and gear used and a moderate random modifier. New mods and duration rolled per each cycle.

Flight of ECM drones would be able to shut off 1-2 mods for only a short duration.

Rofl, doesn't change the fact that your idea really sucks.

And you can't support your idea by chestbeating about killing a 3 month old noob in akianavas a starter system some 2 years ago.

Nobody suggested straight up removing ECM altogether, I don't know where you made that up.


But for old times sake, are you still sitting in hisec killing the industrials mate? Thought you'd give that up and actually do something that is atleast a little bit challenging by now...

You mean like being in over 100 wars, fraking up large Coalitions & Alliances? Or like you in the arse end of nowhere doing little to nothing but crying over Falcons... Again.

CCP has made efforts to appease the un-appeasable whines of ECM. It's right where it needs to be. And it's clear that you don't want to have to consider the challenge (which really isn't that hard) of getting around ECM. After a few years I'd of thought even you would have figured it out by now.

FYI, if you're going to argue that an idea sux, why don't you provide an actual intelligent argument as to why you think so. After all isn't that why you're here? To explore and debate Ideas? Or is that as well too much of a challenge?

I think decreasing the cycle time on ECM down to like 10 seconds for modules and 5 seconds for drones would go a long way.


As it is a lucky jam can just **** you over way to hard.

One issue/side effect will show up if this was done.

I'll assume that CCP would be smart enough to start with effectiveness v.s. logistics first.

Then would base the number of modules that shut off based on how many mods they use on average.

As you get to smaller ships it gets real ugly losing a mod compared to a cruiser.

A BS would have it the other way. It would be very minimal effect

That is why I called it issue/side effect.

It may be a wanted side effect to some.
It might be a huge issue for others.

Just be aware that it would happen if that was done to the ECM system.

Would you really want to have to turn back on your tank if you got hit with ECM?

Would it only effect high slot mods if not?

Now the BS v.s. Frigate effect goes crazy.
1/8th of a BS's Damage could be shut off compared to half of a frigates if just one dropped on a given cycle.

Does that leave ECM as god like v.s. frigs? Or do we give all ships the same base sensor strength to compensate?

More questions than answers on this one.

I already mentioned above that it will make ECM over-powered when used by a frigate to jam a BS. A BS needs the 20 seconds to lock onto a frigate and do something about it. If you shorten the time down to 10 or 5 seconds then a BS would have to wait for 2 or more lucky drop-outs in a row.

ECM is right as rain. Train your skills up, fly ships with high sensor strengths, fit ECCMs or backup arrays, make use of the sensor integrity gang link or use implants. Not wanting to use these items is no excuse and only dumb.

Here is a trick how to counter ECM drones: launch your own combat drones when you see someone launching ECM drones. Once the ECM drones attack will your own drones fight them off through auto aggression. It does not always need smartbombs.

A % chance to make a ship almost completely worthless? This doesn't belongs in a game that is rule and math driven.

Make cycle time dependant on ship size? 5 for frigs, 10 for cruisers, 15 for bc's and 20 for bs'?

Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.

You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.

A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.


If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.



Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.

Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.

You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.

A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.


If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.



Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.

Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.

You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.

Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.


Like Muad said, the idea that any noob can roll a dice and make you worthless for 20 seconds is just a bad idea. Overpowered or not, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pvp mechanics and the majority of the pvpers (people that actually PvP, not the pretenders) don't like it.

He is not acting as if ... but the word is arguing. You have to say the he is arguing as if ....

One is acting when one loses a Stabber to two Falcons and then uses one's frustration to make a point.

ECM fits in just fine. Stop voicing your frustration over a mechanic. You are not the first one to have lost a ship to a gang with Falcons.

Actually I was arguing that claims of permajam this and permajam that are either

A) greatly exaggerated
B) very (un)lucky/lacking appropriate counter skills
C) supreme glass hulls you can quickly chase off.
D) likely all of the above

As well as the hulls that use it need attention if the mechanic sees change as they are balanced around the stacking of chance based mods.

So your opinion is that he shouldn't be auguring at all because of a random km.

It would make ECM over-powered when fitted to frigates that are jamming battleships. The locking time then takes too long and a battleship would have no chance to lock onto small stuff.

If anyone is using RSDs and related drones sub-BS ships would also be in trouble as well. One thing I've contemplated for a couple years now is using arazus with RSDs and ECM drones, and unless ECM drones already have a faster cycle time I could see this making them much more able to lock down ships if/when ECM drones got a comparable cycle time reduction. What competent ECM and RSD pilots could achieve together starts at evil and gets progressively worse.

Yes, because his frustration over a recent loss will not allow him to make a sound argument, which can be seen in his comments.

Firstly, I've not had many losses to ECM in general, I tend to stay away from fights with ECM.

So now you are not having a problem with ECM. Why then make one up?

So now you are not having a problem with ECM. Why then make one up?

dude, what the hell are you talking about.

he just said right there he died in fights with ecm to the point he avoided them completely and i presume because it was not enjoyable

You can lose and still think you gave it a good try, ecm stops you even having that and still losing everything

There is a point in an argument where the losing party packs up his bags and leaves to save face.

As the nice person that I am, I'm informing you that now is the time to go before you embarrass yourself further.

And what he does is dumb, he needs to be protected from it, or what is it you are trying to say?

I think it is smart of him to stay away. If he does not like ECM, does not like to fit against it, then he is certainly free to do so. We all have our preferences. It is however no reason to demand the removal of ECM. He is simply trolling.

The piont is if ecm is on the field you either gimp your ship the point of uselessness with eccm or gamble you get a window to lock and do something, which in a small gang situation is detrimental to a 'good' fight' which is what people want, win or lose when they log in.

ECM effects are unbalanced, the effect is intensely dull and uninspiring and yet available so very easily.

You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.

Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.

no one has the right to complain about fair odds when a griffin of 2 months jams out most of a gang for half a fight, NOTHING is more powerful and its only a god damn miracle more people arnt doing it

...
only your opinion matters theres no right or wrong

I don't why you are so bitter. You need to chill. Maybe you've been in hi-sec too long, because your suggestion is something somebody who never played the game would make.

But I guess station camping jita waiting for industrials to come out isn't really "playing" the game now is it.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but is it not the farther you are out from the primary furball the greater the chance their is of someone MWD'ing in the opposite direction of you and the jumping back on top of you? If that is accurate then wouldn't having a frigate or two with ECM drones, tackle, and decent (not good, not great, decent) DPS potentially bring a bag of bad juju for said falcon?

Seriously, an Arazu can RSD you to the point you can't target anything outside of 10km, but you don't see people whining about it.

While I can't speak for the person you're responding to I have, in fact, seen people whine about it. Fewer people mind you, but still people whining about it. I suspect, however, that fewer people whine about it because even if you're damped to 10km you can still lock up whoever's damping you if they don't maintain range properly and you can still spider-tank if your targets are close enough. If you're jammed up you can do neither.

Or you can kill your tackler and leave the field aswell. Atleast there is a fighting chance.

No, you cannot kill the tackler, because it is the Arazu that tackles you. It has a bonus to scram / point range.

Mr. no-experience at it again.

The arazu can damp without being in range to tackle you genius.

You can burn out of long point range genius.

It is not how the Arazu is flown in PvP. It dampens the range of your sensors down, holds a long-ranged point on you so that you can neither lock or warp away.

A Falcon has to come a lot closer than an Arazu before it can point you.

Ok? And?

Or you can kill your tackler and leave the field aswell. Atleast there is a fighting chance.

His point was it doesnt NEED to be close, it can damp you, tackle you and kill you and there's NOTHING you can do about it. Just like a falcon. Except it'll have a better tank because it doesnt need rigs and lows to make its ECM have a hope in hell of working

Irrespective, if you had some FoF ammo - as I suggested previous in this thread and others that should be introduced - you'd have an option for a limited counter to ALL ewar that's not a fitting sacrifice (ECCM, sebo) or flat out impossible (TD).

I've never seen, but have heard of people, driving ewar birds off the field by utilising long range platforms (cerberus was named recently, perhaps this thread, perhaps the HAC one) because of the huge frailty of ECM ships they dont last any time at all under fire. Its another option but rarer.

As I say, FoF ammo removes the "but I cant do anything" complaint attached to all ewar - and I've yet to hear a sound debate against it except "well, FoF missiles suck" which is little better than "I want to be immune to all ewar" since its an available counter at no fitting cost. Perhaps I've overlooked something there though. I know some ewar ships who have had *very* rude shocks when the enemy pilot opened up with FoF missiles - hello Mr paper-tank.

...
My OP suggests that ECM, whether overpowered or weak... Isn't in line with the other mechanics of the game. The problem is the random nature (a dice roll, as somebody called it) of the module. Either you jam the guy and everything he can do goes away or you don't. It all depends on a chance, which is something that needs to be changed.

Other forms of ewar give you a reduction in a specific area and there are always ways to resist them to a certain degree. ECM should be brought into line with how the others work.

Yes - and you have a case there around the binary random mechanic - but people are muddying it by claiming it's overpowered. It's relatively balanced today, if a crappy mechanic.

People are not machines, they do not do everything right all the time.

True.

What I wanted to say,no matter how much you try to get fair fight in EvE the harder it gets.Will you say ECM prevented fair fight or blob ,or god knows what .

ECM is chance based and that is what suck the most and I think that is what most of ppl have problem with.More cause no matter how much you invest in your ECCM there will be still chance to get jamed.It sucks ? Yes ofc ,but in same time it sucks to be damped to **** ,to be tracked so you cant even hit space station,or being neuted in one cycle in frig and look how drones chew you ship.It suck when you get web on you from 30k or scramed from god know where ....etc etc.

If you dont like fighting ECM groups of ppl ,just fly past and get another fight.If you plan to do it ,well at least fit some ECCM and get prepared.

Getting damped and neuted suck too, but their mechanics make sense and are generally accepted. This isn't the case with ECM...

This is not about me, this is about improving the game.

ECM sucks because it is a terribly designed mechanic.

Getting damped and neuted suck too, but their mechanics make sense and are generally accepted. This isn't the case with ECM...

So you want to say mechanics of other types of EWAR is ok?Like ships with no bonuses abusing damps and tracks.Tell me do you see more ships with with multispec jams in mids or you see more ships with other ewar ?

I never said ECM is nor bad ,I just want to say not much more than other EWAR depending on situation.

You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.

The plain truth is that the mechanics of ECM altogether are a bad idea. Every single day there are threads made (like this one) that complain about how **** poor ECM is. I don't understand why CCP haven't done anything to fix it yet.

A % chance to make a ship almost completely worthless? This doesn't belongs in a game that is rule and math driven.

That and the fact that ECM: when it works.. is the absolute best type of EWAR possible. There are little to no ways to fight it off.

Some examples:

If you are sensor damped, you can fight it by moving your ship closer. If you can't do that, atleast you have the option of trying to kill whatever is tackling you and warp off.

If you are neuted, you can make wise use of your cap using modules until you run out, then you will have to prioritize or depend on your non-cap using modules. Or if you have a cap booster, then you can use that.

If you are tracking disrupted, either you will have to get closer (Range disruption) or lower your transversal (Tracking speed disruption). Again... fightable.

But if you get hit by ECM, there is nothing you can do but try to fly away from the source (which could easily follow) and HOPE that you don't get hit by more cycles. If you are tackled, then you are most likely ******. You also have no way to activate any modules on the enemy tackler. In most causes you just wait to die because there is nothing you can do.

This makes it much stronger than other forms of EWAR, it prevents you from using any targeted modules while the others allow some opportunities for pilots to make some good plays and combat their effects.


I do agree that CCP has made some advances in nerfing ECM (minor patches on a much larger problem IMO), such as the range nerfs and the sensor compensation skills. However this will change nothing. You can nerf ECM to being ****, but it will still be a terrible mechanic. I am asking for a rework of the entire ewar to make it into something that makes more sense and fits in better into the game. It's about time you do something about this mess CCP.

Does anybody share this viewpoint? Or have any ideas on how to change ECM entirely? I have a few and could post them if requested.


TL;DR : there is none. gtfo.

Then why the hell did you start another one?

ECM is fine, your tears in mildly amusing (lose a fight to someone using ewar?), but overall I rate this a 0/10.

Other EWar are debuffs, ECM completely locks you out from doing ANYTHING.

In case you are being serious, know you still can:

• fly away
• repair armor / boost shields
• fire FoF missiles
• launch drones
• fire smartbombs
• turn on a Target Lock Breaker
• turn on ECCM
• complain about it

Oh and make sure you just ignore this guy.

He has never PVPed before and has no clue what hes talking about most of the time.

Dude, have you ever considered that Whitehound is just an Alt... Most like from a dude who's played from the beginning? And/or has waaaay more experience than you? You continue to amaze me with your utter lack of intellect.

Morrigan LeSante,
I actually like the FoF Ammo idea... But how do you propose it would work for guns? The FoF missiles is a very unclear device... Does it go after the closest target? Largest sig? What determines how it tracks? After that, how then does gun ammo go FoF? As that ammo does have it's own propulsion, nor it's own guidance system. The only thing would to be able to Manually control your gun turrets. Oh wait, where have I heard that before?

At any rate, please elaborate on your FoF ammo idea.

does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.

lots of qq there
maybe grow some balls and try to l2pvp, it seems an experiecne issue for u that u cant counter jammer ships
if they are such a huge threat why dont u counter them? ah i get it easier to whine and ask ccp to make ecm useless

maybe you should quit^^

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17681437
instead of having 2 mwd-s an eccm maybe would have helped you :D

The main problem with ECM is its very long cycle time of 20 seconds. This is longer than some fights and therefore overpowered. In my opinion ECM cycle time should be reduced to 5 seconds while also reducing cap usage to 1/4. This would make ECM more smooth. If the enemy get a hit on you than at least after 5 seconds you have another chance to lock him up if he fails his cycle and maybe do some damage before he gets the next lucky hit.

Post with your main. Nobody cares what some unknown alt has to say.

This is pretty much what ECM does. One minute you have fun fighting someone and then he backstabs you with a Falcon and takes your ship.

I don't even pretend to know why he had two MWDs fit.

I do know that an ECCM module wouldn't have done **** to help him, and you know it, too.

Wasn't there a guy who was dumpstered a couple times in his Brutix with max info bonus Proteus alt and two overloaded ECCM modules and he was still jammed by some light drones? Or the enemy got away cause he was jammed or something.

does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.

There are plenty of ways to die in eve without a fight, are you suggesting that they are all unfair, the other day my frig got toasted by a loki in a one man insta lock gate camp. I mean he had me target locked and in my pod in less than a second, luckily pods instawarp so I got away with just losing the ship. Are you also saying this is unfair? What about gatecamps in general or bubbles or being alpha'd from 75km.

Anyhow there are plenty of counters to ECM, I always find that the people who complain about ECM are the one's that don't really understand how it works. Once you've understood it it's not the big threat you expect it to be. Next time you go on a roam you can always take some cheap disposable Griffins with you to even things out or to very cheaply force multiply your efforts, blackbirds are pretty much gimped these days and need to fill all of their mid slots with racial jammers in lieu of tank because unless you know exactly who you are up against it's not possible to guarantee who you won't run into and what ships they won't also be flying.

Oh yes there's also skills you can train that will harden your resistances to ewar as well as eccm mods. The only for of ewar that truly has no counter is the target painter.

We plenty understand how ECM works, we don't care if it is weak or has many counters. A mechanic that is so Luck dependent is not wanted in a game that works so well with math.

What about the wrecking hits? They too are completely luck dependent. Are they causing you a problem, too, and need to be removed?

What about solar systems? The number of players is also luck dependent. Do you want to set the number of allowed players to a fixed 4, 6, 8, ..., and make players wait before jumping into a system until enough players have been found?

Most of whine about ECM is produced by people, who prefer frigate-size hulls - because Frigates have very low sensor strength, thus one Falcon can easily keep in permajam 4 Dramiels.

People who fly in BS gangs, even small gangs of ~10 ships, just don't notice ECM, because if there is a Falcon in enemy gang - all that it can do, is turn off a SINGLE battleship (out of 10) for 20 seconds, and immediately die from fire of 9 other battleships then.

That's why somebody (those who prefer Frigate size) thinks that ECM is overpowered, while other people (who fly BS and fight BS) thik that ECM is overnerfed.

The real solution would be make ECM in the same way as guns - i.e. introduce ECM modules of three sizes - frig-sise, cruiser-size, and BS-size. Give them signature resolution charactersitic and add a strong penalty to jam probability if sigres of ECM module is larger than target sig, give them corresponding PG/CPU requirements, and cap usage. And adjust optimal range, for example 5km for frig-size ECM, 10km for cruiser-size ECM, and 20km for BS-size ECM.

Falcon will be able to jam cruiser-size good. It will still be weak against BS because of BS sensor strength. It will be weak against frigates because of sigres/sig, so a pair of dramiels will kill it, because it will not be able to keep both in permajam.

In firgate-size fights, only electronic attack ships will be able to put jam on an enemy frig with acceptable probability. But EAF has less MED slots, less bonuces, much less EHP, less optimal range. And it will be killed by a pair of assaults easily.
But a pair of EAF will still be able to make troubles for a pair of frigate-size damagers. Balance?

Wrecking hits are luck dependent, but they are hardly the same thing as ECM.
You have a chance to get a wrecking hit and it can help, yes. But it is not comparable to ECM where the entire mechanic is a complete binary outcome. Theres no real comparison really.

So I guess it is just luck that Jita is the most populated system everyday.

Sure it is comparable. You said your problem is with luck, and both are based on luck, which is why I am comparing them.

That Jita is the biggest market hub has got its reasons, but it could have been any other system. Other games are far more predictable, much less complicated and with more players. Might just be EVE is not your game and you prefer a game of chess instead.

So your opinion is that he shouldn't be auguring at all because of a random km.

Dieing to two skilled recons is fine and i think we all know it.

its when a 10 man gang fights another 10 man gang and one side has two ecm ships and the other teem cant no anything unless they waste all their slots with eccm and die anyway due to horrible fits. Sounds legit.

No, hes not an alt. Because only carebears and "pvpers" that hug hi-sec believe that ECM is okay and suggest horrible ideas. They have one thing in common, they are both clueless.

The best and most experienced PvPers in the game all agree: ECM needs to be fixed. I'm going to take their word over a buncha wannabes any day.

Like Muad said, the idea that any noob can roll a dice and make you worthless for 20 seconds is just a bad idea. Overpowered or not, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pvp mechanics and the majority of the pvpers (people that actually PvP, not the pretenders) don't like it.

That gate camp blew you away because the player had enough alpha and lock speed to kill you very quickly. That is just math.

When ECM comes into play it is somebody taking a die, throwing it, and if you get unlucky you get owned. That is luck.

We plenty understand how ECM works, we don't care if it is weak or has many counters. A mechanic that is so Luck dependent is not wanted in a game that works so well with math.

You do know that firing guns is also a chance base mechanic, it's 50/50 whether you hit or not, before skills, weapon stats, ship bonuses and mods are taken into account.

In principle it isn't any different to ECM, which is also a chance based mechanic that is also modified by weapon stats, ship bonuses, player skills and mods. In principle it's no different so in other words all combat in eve is just a roll of the dice. Your job as a ship commander is to make sure the dice roll your way.

I have read blogs, wikis and technical pages about eve mechanics extensively over the last 6 years, you may rest assured that I know how things work and that I am also right.

O rly? I guess I just have to take your word for it?

Rest assured, the most experienced PvPers in the game agree with me on ECM, and I know I am right.

the major problem in EWAR is that it doesn't scale like weapons, drones, armor and shield reps or shield extenders and armor plates everything scales but EWAR.

so a frigate can do effective way more to a BS with EWAR then its guns as a BS will laugh at the DPS of most frigate`s

the lack of scalability makes it OP in some cases and totaly USELESS in some other cases. for example in a large fight EWAR is useless and in small fights it can be OP very easily.

my 2 cnt

You need to back that up with some evidence, get them to post here or bump this thread, else i'll just have to take your word for it.

Look on page one.

Prior to posting any replies I always make a point of reading every post, I've read every single one in this thread and I simply dont see any support for the claims you've made. Anyhow I won't get into a pissing contest with you as you clearly wont change your opinion and I wont change mine.

I reiterate that ewar is fine, there's plenty to counter it and it's not overpowered, if anything I think it's underpowered, you have your reasons for believing what you do and I respect them, I just can't agree with them. All math is elegant especially the simple stuff. Supporting one equation over another because its more complex seems wrong to me when its the result thats truly elegant.

O rly? I guess I just have to take your word for it?

Rest assured, the most experienced PvPers in the game agree with me on ECM, and I know I am right.

Where? I cant see any experienced PvPers agreeing with you. You know you are right,,, ,omg , can it be more egoistic?

in short: there is a chance based mechanish ,which isnt overused --> not op at all , has plenty of counter ,but mr "pro" pvper never uses any counter , and then looses 1 from 10 losses due to enemy ecm ship in a 2v5 or other outnumbered scenarios.
But he is so pro ,he comes to the forum to whine and qq. I can totally see the experienced PvPer part...

Our gangs make a policy of avoiding gangs with Falcons or Rooks. The idiots that use them don't seem to understand that ECM is not fun - just a method of epeen enlargement. If you want to get fun fights, roams, and engagements, don't use ECM. If you do use it, you'll get less and less fights in the area because everyone will realize what an as*hole you are, and the only "PvP" you'll get in that region will be gatecamping newbies (oh, what fun! Waiting an hour to engage a newbie tristn on a gate with your Falcon supported fleet).

I hope one day CCP comes to its senses and decide to man up and accept the mistake they made with ECM. Its not a fun form of EWAR, not dynamic, trying to counter it results in crippled fits (for example - to counter sensor camps or TDs or neuts you fit sebos or tracking enhancers or cap boosters - all of these modules actually help your ship when you don't encounter its respective EWAR. ECCM? It's still mostly useless when faced with a Falcon, and absolutely useless (unlike the other mods) when ECM is not encountered.)

ECM kills small gang fights. I hope CCP one day realizes this and changes or deletes ECM from the game.

Obviously you don't know who DHB wildcat is.

Anyways the problems with ECM:

Does it ruin small scale PvP? Yes.

Does it create an un-fun enviroment? Yes.

Is it elegant? Yes in simplicity , in function? No it ******* sucks.

Does it fit in with the rest of the game mechanics? Not really, its too random.

Is it overpowered? Irrelevant to our point.

ECM has nothing going for it. The only people that support it are ones that don't know better, haven't experienced enough of it, or simply can't win without it.

ECM causes people to lose ships without a fight, I honestly don't see how you think that is a good thing.

ECM has nothing going for it. The only people that support it are ones that don't know better, haven't experienced enough of it, or simply can't win without it.

ECM causes people to lose ships without a fight, I honestly don't see how you think that is a good thing.

I don't support this; I've been on both ends, I don't use jammers unless I'm on a jam ship which is hardly ever, and if you're going to say I don't know better you're just sidestepping any sort of discourse.

Jammers give a chance that someone can't do anything briefly, damps ensure it. That's not a good point against them.

And if 'some noob' can show up and keep you out of a fight, guess what, he can do that. He's also in a paper thin ship and probably only managed one jam, so have someone kill him or let your drones do it.

ECM is no more effective than damped or TD'd to death. In no scenario can you meaningfully fight back - flee or die is the same option everywhere - confirmation bias makes you feel ECM is somehow 'worse'

Please stop pretending its some god like I-WIN button because its not.

Your complaint about the entire mechanic is valid - moaning about it being massively overpowered is simply untrue and detracts from the value of the thread.

Simply put, we want a mechanic overhaul for ECM.

No, we do not want it.

You lost a Stabber to two Falcons. Sure, it sucks, but all losses suck. You learn from it and you seem to be doing just fine. Roll with a bigger gang or keep avoiding ECM ships.

With all the nerfs to ECM we already had are now sensor dampeners becoming the FoTM. You will run into the same problem as before and I do not want to see the game changed just so you can make the same mistake twice before you realize you were wrong all along.

Edit: Out of the 17 losses you've had, not a single one has an ECM ship in it. And you claim to have been on both sides? Heck, you've not even flown an ECM ship, yet alone die to one. This is why I say only the inexperienced argue for ECM.

See, now you're just posting emotional rants.


Just get closer vs a damp? Then just get further away from ECM
TD does affect missiles? ECM does affect FoF either.

Your 'solutions' are just as ridiculous as mine.


Keep the complaint to chance based issues around a binary effect and away from emotional rants about its power in game, is my humble advice.

When there is a frigate tackling your ship and you get ECM'd, you are basically dead in the water. When you get sensor damped you atleast have the option of killing the ships tackling or brawling you. Not everybody flies kiting long range ships that sit 20kms away from you. This is a very common occurrence.

If you've ever fought a keres you'd understand how wrong that is. On top of that damp ships don't open with range, they open with res. That freakish, endless, and evil 20 sec jam you're talking about is nothing compared to taking a cruiser's res down to 40. After that, if you're still alive lock range is at 8% and if you can lock from disruptor range at that point you're too big to hit a frig anyway.

Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.
.

If 8% of your maximum lock(What happens when a damp ship decides to hate you) is greater than disruptor range (that needs a base targeting range over 200km for the record) you are clearly in something that can't hit a frigate. And at that point nothing is going to stay in your lock range long enough to actually lock.

You seem have trouble with the idea that damps can keep ships from locking and therefore fighting.

Then the jams are VERY unreliable and I don't think there's any debate about how fast they die after a couple of missed jams.

No lol, fitting a single 1600mm plate gives you like 10k more EHP and reduces your jam on a specific module from 9.9 str to 9.4 .

What are u even saying hahaha.

Also: Do you even know what a brawling is bro?

I do. Now, from the situation you just laid out, kill the tackle orbiting just out of lock range (18km) and the keres orbiting at 36(the keres is putting down a point from here as well).

I do. Now, from the situation you just laid out, kill the tackle orbiting just out of lock range (18km) and the keres orbiting at 36(the keres is putting down a point from here as well).

Try to slingshot the tackler at 18kms, he dies. \o/, you just killed something. Can't do that with ECM :), because when u get jammed everybody and their uncle will get in close to you and apply DPS because they know you can't do anything to fight back.

No lol, fitting a single 1600mm plate gives you like 10k more EHP and reduces your jam on a specific module from 9.9 str to 9.4 .

What are u even saying hahaha.

Great, now you have a ~50% change to jam a lowly caracal. Oooooh terrifying.


Optimal caps out at ~54km too



Now imagine what an arazu could do to the same caracal? Far, far worse.


But, yeah you're all right, ECM is an I-WIN button, that's why it's everywhere all the time, even on unbonused hulls. Wait, sorry - that was 2005

Optimal caps out at 54km. You using a failcon? If u want range jump into a blackbird and your optimal is around 80km.

50km is really far away anyways. Not a lot of things can reach you.

I see a broken mechanic and its about time CCP fixes it.

You asked proof that experienced PvPers agree with me. I pointed one out. Not my problem you don't know who he is. Go google his name or something. Infact, go google who the oldest and best PvPers are, then go ask them yourself what they think about ECM.

And stop hiding behind an alt, post with your main.

Usually use falcon as it has better jam strength.

A ~50% jam rate isn't reliable - and the ships are suitably paper tanked compared to their equivalents - if this wasn't true, we'd see nothing but solo rooks and falcons kicking ass up and down - but we don't.



However it's a digression - the issue with ECM is the unpredictability, the binary effect and that's intrinsically linked to the hulls themselves.

The unpredictability has to do with the binary effect which is the problem, not the hulls.

First you fix the mechanic and then worry about the hulls.

I shouldn't have to go fact checking your arguments, it's your job to bring the facts to the table. Also I don't have alts I have fully fleshed out main characters though admittedly more than one.

Anyhow after you rudely told someone to STFU I am now obliged to ask you to:

'Show us on the dolly where the nasty Falcon touched you...'

You can't because if you fix one and not the other you have hugely overpowered rooks etc.

To bring it line with other mechanics but not do the hulls you have a situation with at least half their mids free, the lows and rigs.


Personally I think a rook/falcon as effective and reliable as the likes if a pilgrim/arazu would be a horrible thing, I'd rather fight today's incarnation.

That's the thing though - when it works it is (to all intents and purposes) not more materially effective than other EWAR. The only real difference is that other ewar affords the /illusion/ of a choice/ability to combat it.


If a gang is rolling with damps/TDs - their tackle etc will fly accordingly - you can chase it futilely but your death is just as certain as an ECM bird jamming you constantly. You might think you had a chance, but you really didn't.

That's the thing though - when it works it is (to all intents and purposes) not more materially effective than other EWAR. The only real difference is that other ewar affords the /illusion/ of a choice/ability to combat it.


If a gang is rolling with damps/TDs - their tackle etc will fly accordingly - you can chase it futilely but your death is just as certain as an ECM bird jamming you constantly. You might think you had a chance, but you really didn't.

Wow, the most amusing and amazing thing in this thread is the moderating :)
Continious attacks on person (in lack of ability to attack arguments) by thread opener is completely ingored on other hand the few who actually provide good arguments against total fruitbatness of OPs statements are moderated.

ECM is not broken. If it were there would be numerous kitsunes, falcons, rooks and scorpions all around high/low/null.

Compelling argument.

Just trying to be on same level as you... though it's probably bad for my mental health

Attack argument? Oh the irony.