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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
Russian International Allegiance
196
   |
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
From your link: Quote:Lag is a common word meaning to fail to keep up or to fall behind
TiDi is 100% intentional. It's not failing to keep up or falling behind.
What's next ?
SlowMo in a movie ... OMG lag !
Bullet-time in an FPS ... OMG lag !
Clocks being turned back for Wintertime ... OMG lag !
Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
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Lord Charles Gatsby
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Lord Charles Gatsby wrote:What is so great about fountain anyhow ? im making billions every day in Jita Amarr and Rens on trades.
Dont be a slave too your 0.0 overlords who expect you to give up your time to defend Thier assets: thier moons thier intrests.
Dont work for someone else's dreams.
Stop derailing the thread This is not about fountain or the events of the fountain conflict, there are other threads about them and you should go there to discuss them, not here. This thread is about Tidi and its effects on those fighting under it.
Well theres no real reason to discuss TiDi all it is is LAg under a different name. What happens is everything goes really slowly and it makes the game breakdown so much its just rediculous. Not a lot else to say about it.
What do you expect. Was only 10 years ago that 16vs 16 on Counterstrike source seemed like the future of multiplayter gaming. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:No your right, i havent been involved in it at all.....  Your right, tidi as made it so much better....
Does grid load? Yes
Do bombs work? Yes, I remember bombs just staying in place at around 700 local
Drones respond? Yes
Module's work? Yes
CLUSTER CRASH, No.
Yup, sounds a lot better than the bad old days. |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican.
Cult of War
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi.
This doesnt happen with Tidi?
In some of the bigger fights which are at max Tidi, I can click my modules ad it takes over 2 minutes for them to activate, changing crystals in beam weapons took the duration of <20 AU warp at max tidi and a few minutes afterwards |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari
Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:46:00 -
[65] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces
It was a perfectly valid example of TiDi working against the larger force. As you explicitly stated the opposite in your OP. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces
That wasn't last night, it was Sunday's shananigans after 6VDT, and the titan was successfully ganked that time.
A titan was bumped and tackled and we couldn't get a savior fleet into system because 6VDT was running real time and 1400 raging Clusterfuckians rage logging brought our staging sysetm to 10% TiDi.
We couldn't get there fast enough. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari
Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:51:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi?
No. The client and server are still in sync with TiDi, it may not keep up with your inputs but it is still in-sync. Its intentional, lag isn't. Yes there'sca delay but unfortunately thats unavoidable. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:53:00 -
[68] - Quote
Slowdown, Tidi, lag... all the same.
If I have 100% real time and I press a button and the server accepts my input and shows me an immediate result, it's working as intended.
Now, in regards to slowdown tidi lag **** all, if I press a button and don't see a result, it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.
If I blackscreen from server overload and cannot press a button with immediate result it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.
Regardless of the color of sprinkles you want to put on that piece of ****, it's still ****.
Both result in the same thing; me not having a direct response from me pressing a button.
But that's not even the biggest element here in this thread, because TiDi is going to help the smaller guy out more often than not because in a game where client commands creates lag/slowdown/tidi/fuckallbadshit... the larger force is usually the culprit and therefore does not need to depend on skill but brute force basically decapitating the smaller force who has to focus on their reaction times in game that's subject to hardware limitations (contrary to what Eve advertises itself as having).
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Rodney Pooner
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:54:00 -
[69] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi? In some of the bigger fights which are at max Tidi, I can click my modules ad it takes over 2 minutes for them to activate, changing crystals in beam weapons took the duration of <20 AU warp at max tidi and a few minutes afterwards
TiDi is not the perfect solution, but it is a far better solution than the old lag/crash fest of the old days.
You have to adjust your tactics to the mechanics, it was mentioned about the 6VDT gank where the mass undocking in 4-EP cause 10% TiDI while Test ans friends were happily blapping away at the titan in relative safety.
While TiDi in 4-ep last night worked to test and friends disadvantage.
Use the mechanics of the game and adjust your tactics. The game isnt broke, your tactics are lacking.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
So if there was really any question.
The TiDi givith
http://themittani.com/news/4-ep-titan-gank-goes-awry-capital-battle-results
....and the TiDi taketh away
http://themittani.com/news/alod-third-time-charm
It doesn't only work for the larger party. Trust me. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari
Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
OP, these are the 2 different examples I was referring to. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:56:00 -
[72] - Quote
Lord Charles Gatsby wrote:Well theres no real reason to discuss TiDi all it is is LAg under a different name. What happens is everything goes really slowly and it makes the game breakdown so much its just rediculous. Not a lot else to say about it. GǪapart from the bit where TiDi very specifically is not lag and that everything goes really slowly and it makes the game not break down. In fact, that's kind of the point of TiDi: to ensure that the game stays the same and none of the gamebreaking effects of serverload-induced lag occur.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
Firstly, TiDi doesn't give any advantage to the larger side. If anything, it gives a huge advantage to the smaller side during a significant fleet action, allowing them time to scramble reinforcements before incurring the same losses they would during normal time against a larger fleet. Duh.
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist. Google itself could not handle real time client(there's the key term btw, real time) server interactions at this level. If you think it can be done (with your undoubtedly expert network knowledge) then prove CCP wrong and do it yourself. Otherwise, just shut up.
It's the preferable alternative to the game crashing, or warping in and ending up dead. If you think gatecamps are bad now? Try jumping into a system, closing your eyes for 90 seconds, and only then can you start to move your ship.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican.
Cult of War
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Firstly, TiDi doesn't give any advantage to the larger side. If anything, it gives a huge advantage to the smaller side during a significant fleet action, allowing them time to scramble reinforcements before incurring the same losses they would during normal time against a larger fleet. Duh.
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist. Google itself could not handle real time client(there's the key term btw, real time) server interactions at this level. If you think it can be done (with your undoubtedly expert network knowledge) then prove CCP wrong and do it yourself. Otherwise, just shut up.
It's the preferable alternative to the game crashing, or warping in and ending up dead. If you think gatecamps are bad now? Try jumping into a system, closing your eyes for 90 seconds, and only then can you start to move your ship.
Scramble reinforcements to the smaller side?
You mean the smaller side who have everybody at a computer online, in fleet and shooting the titain?
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist.
Correct, the EvE cluster is a distributed super computer, similar to Sandia's Red Storm (the first of its type if I remember right).
There is NOTHING better on the market, they are the servers that run Google's cloud databases, Amazon's market place, and the rigs that do Wall Streets automated training. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Firstly, TiDi doesn't give any advantage to the larger side. If anything, it gives a huge advantage to the smaller side during a significant fleet action, allowing them time to scramble reinforcements before incurring the same losses they would during normal time against a larger fleet. Duh.
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist. Google itself could not handle real time client(there's the key term btw, real time) server interactions at this level. If you think it can be done (with your undoubtedly expert network knowledge) then prove CCP wrong and do it yourself. Otherwise, just shut up.
It's the preferable alternative to the game crashing, or warping in and ending up dead. If you think gatecamps are bad now? Try jumping into a system, closing your eyes for 90 seconds, and only then can you start to move your ship. Scramble reinforcements to the smaller side? You mean the smaller side who have everybody at a computer online, in fleet and shooting the titain?
Perhaps.
Fact is that when you are fighting in 10% that reinforcements are running ten times faster than you are which can be a blessing or a curse, its situational. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Quote:Scramble reinforcements to the smaller side?
You mean the smaller side who have everybody at a computer online, in fleet and shooting the titain?
The answer to that is: Get more friends or it's tough luck. Friends are totally overpowered in EVE. I also find it hard to believe you don't have any unengaged blues.
And if not, then you picked a bad fight. Too bad, so sad.
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
177
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Now, in regards to slowdown tidi lag **** all, if I press a button and don't see a result, it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.
If you press a button and don't see a result, that's lag.
Murk Paradox wrote:If I blackscreen from server overload and cannot press a button with immediate result it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.
If you blackscreen from server overload, that's lag.
If you have TiDi and no lag, you press a button and your result is still immediate. Your guns turn on when you press the button. They turn off when you press the button. Your ship starts locking other ships when you press the button.
Locking takes longer, and so do warps, and aligning, and most other actions. But the commands are still processed immediately.
The whole point of TiDi is to slow down the simulation so that the server has enough (wall clock) time per simulation tick to evaluate everything that should happen in that tick. This is in contrast to lag, where the server does not have enough time to calculate everything that should be happening in that tick, and defers some commands to a later tick. |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
20
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
Russian International Allegiance
197
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:08:00 -
[80] - Quote
Here just a reminder of what lag was like in 2010 with less than 200 in local.
Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy
The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned.
Yeah, because BoB wasn't totally defeated by an upstart coalition with more guts than them, and almost no other advantage... (despite the wide rumor that BoB had devhaxx)
Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi? No. The client and server are still in sync with TiDi, it may not keep up with your inputs but it is still in-sync. Its intentional, lag isn't. Yes there's a delay but unfortunately thats unavoidable.
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:12:00 -
[83] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
177
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.
We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.
You hoped anyway.
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:19:00 -
[86] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries. Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.
But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is.
It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker.
It's just ugly.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami
The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:21:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.
Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.
The why and whatfors do not impact the fact it happens.
Sugar coating **** doesn't change what it is, only how it tastes before you start chewing.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise
Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:27:00 -
[88] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries. Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is. It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker. It's just ugly.
You are a seriously dense monkey dude. For real.
First, the cycle from client server communication is called latency
Second lag is a result of a processor que times. If the queue processing exceeds the the client update rate, you have lag.
Third , I'm a hardware engineer by trade, what CCP has done with server loads is on par with amazon's scalable cloud architecture.
That being said I don't think anyone has a REAL TIME (Amazon's services aren't real time) dynamic load sharing architecutre working, and if they do they aren't marketing it for anything, its in a datacenter for a multi-billion dollar a year bank and they don't want ANYONE else seeing it.
Suffice it to say its extraordinarily difficult to break threads and reassign them to different logical procs in a real time environment, my company has been working at it to varying degrees for the better part of ten years. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari
Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries. Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is. It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker. It's just ugly.
No fanboiing, its just TiDi and lag are different things. They both cause delays but in different ways for different reasons. TiDi keeps inputs in order, lag doesn't.
In the end its a bit of a moot point, its unavoidable for now so what do you expect CCP to do about it? |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
Russian International Allegiance
197
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
/me feels awfully reminded how people argued that EVE is just as instanced as other MMOs ...
I found another video of how bad lag was. Just watch the client freeze and desync. Love how the client switches 10 times between the Rokh and the loading window, after the ship is long dead.
Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
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