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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:15:00 -
[181] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf power projection That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!! yeah "undock, warp to fleet member" was how our OP power projection ability saved the day Wasn't the station bubbled so you jumped out of system and then abck in? Might want to think a bit more about what you just said.
From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
123
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:22:00 -
[182] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
Its not TiDi that you should worry. Its better than having a system hard cap. If the system had a hard cap then who ever gets the most in the system before the limit is meet would likely win the fight.
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Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
123
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:33:00 -
[183] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.
If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain.
This has happened before. Random systems have seen TiDi pop in and out because of a fight somewhere in NULL. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8521
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:46:00 -
[184] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.
They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:02:00 -
[185] - Quote
Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out
I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3786
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:44:00 -
[186] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place.
You're doing it all wrong, smalls. This is the point at which you're meant to double down and insist that Capitals can jump right out of bubbles and call for a jump drive nerf.
This is GD. We have standards. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
598
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:52:00 -
[187] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place. You're doing it all wrong, smalls. This is the point at which you're meant to double down and insist that Capitals can jump right out of bubbles and call for a jump drive nerf. This is GD. We have standards.
I sent money to some people after they made me learn something in here. I'm not your average GD poster. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5714
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:59:00 -
[188] - Quote
Andski wrote:If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out Yeah, that was my original point. It sounded like FV was saying that they jumped out because the bubbles were preventing them from warping. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3935
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 04:01:00 -
[189] - Quote
Well apparently the enemy bubbled in the wrong place or something like that. By the time they had gotten bubbles on the undock properly it was too late. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1097
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 06:09:00 -
[190] - Quote
TiDi allows for massive fights, which make headlines, which bring lots of new blood into the game. Might want to get used to it cause from a business standpoint, it's brilliant. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
72
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 06:53:00 -
[191] - Quote
To be fair, TiDi tends to work both ways. Sometimes the ganking force can destroy its target before its friends can form up in heavy tidi, sometimes they get slowed down and lose it.
Either way, it makes big battles possible and is pretty cool - though really in 6VDT I think it was as tidi as it would ever get. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet? |
Alfie Duckling
Anquer Quare Easily Excited
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 08:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
Trii Seo wrote:To be fair, TiDi tends to work both ways. Sometimes the ganking force can destroy its target before its friends can form up in heavy tidi, sometimes they get slowed down and lose it.
Either way, it makes big battles possible and is pretty cool - though really in 6VDT I think it was as tidi as it would ever get.
This.
I mean really, TiDi is by far the lesser of two evils. |
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 10:21:00 -
[193] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Medarr wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power. GǪand you'll still have lag.
elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
383
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 11:10:00 -
[194] - Quote
Medarr wrote:Tippia wrote:Medarr wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power. GǪand you'll still have lag. elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?
HS22 blades cap out around 650Ghz/s they advertise 1000gigE but the interface is a PCI daughter board and there its only so much the Northridge can take.
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3787
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 11:36:00 -
[195] - Quote
Medarr wrote:elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?
If the server can handle 600 people without lagging out, each side will bring 600. Total of 1,200. If the server can handle 2000 people without TiDi, each side will bring 2001. Total of 4,002. If the server can handle 4000 people without TiDi, each side will bring 4001. Total of 8,002. If the server can handle 20,000 people without TiDi, each side will (eventually) bring 20,001. Total of 40,002.
This has been the trend since... well, forever. There were actually tactics and fleet setups designed around the horrible nature of pre-tidi lag (ungroup guns, Alpha>Else (since everything effectively fires at the same rate), pack enough people in system first so you get to be the one shooting black-screened turkeys, etc), but fleets kept bringing more people because outnumbering your opponent is always advantageous if it's possible. TiDi is a graceful way to handle this trend.
External Bandwidth isn't the issue, and the problem with just throwing processing power at the problem is that the bottleneck is putting everything in the right order which, essentially, has to be single threaded by its nature.
There's a reason why complex simulations on supercomputers run hilariously slowly (a certain protein folding supercomputer node (of 512 cores) can run 17,000 nanoseconds of a 24,000 atom simulation in a full day**)*, and that's because getting the order right is critical. EVE's 1 Hz simulation granularity and much simpler rules allow it to run much faster than that (thankfully) but a giant fight (where the number of particles to track probably approaches that 24,000 number) is still a remarkably complex simulation, and it's attempting to do this simulation in real time with random inputs coming in constantly from each particle.
*this is an incredibly simplistic comparison **That's 60,000 days to complete 1 second of simulation*** ***That's 165 years. Had this computer been around since the Mexican-American War, it would just now have completed 1 second of simulation.**** ****Luckily, proteins fold absurdly quickly, so this isn't a big deal***** *****footnote This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 13:12:00 -
[196] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not [causing 10% TiDi] in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it.
It's hard to imagine enough force to down a titan that quickly that doesn't cause some TiDi. It's also hard to imagine that the defenders of the titan would all log into the same system simultaneously and just sit around waiting while TiDi was rising and their titan was dying. I'd think they would start getting carrier groups into the non-TiDi engagement system to begin landing reps on their titan and to start pushing the TiDi meter in the engagement system towards that 10% mark.
Even in the scenario where there is no TiDi in the engagement system and massive TiDi in the defender's staging system, all that has to be done is to fleet the appropriate people in the staging system and get cyno's lit in the engagement system. If your titan dies before you can even do that, then odds are that TiDi wasn't the cause of your loss so much as the efficiency of the opposing force. The titan is SUPPOSED to die in that scenario.
The term is "hit-and-run". It's not "hit-and-stand-your-ground-while-the-opposition-musters-an-appropriately-sized-response-force", but that is effectively what TiDi makes a strike force do, stand their ground and face the response.
Is TiDi good? Is it necessary? Is it lag? I don't know, probably yes to all three. But when it comes to the question of "Is it fair?", the answer is pretty clear. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3943
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 13:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Surprise, if there's more fights, there's more unfair fights. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 04:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Surprise, if there's more fights, there's more unfair fights. Not rly. |
Indica Dominant
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 09:43:00 -
[199] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
you have 2 options for large fleet fights:
option 1: TIDI option 2: the game stops working the fighting starts with more than a few hundred people involved.
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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 15:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
Indica Dominant wrote:you have 2 options for large fleet fights: option 1: TIDI option 2: the game stops working the fighting starts with more than a few hundred people involved.
We only have 1 of those options, TiDi. And, TiDi is just another way of saying "the system by which the server handles lag". The server bends so that it doesn't break, but isn't it fair to wonder, after all that bending, whether or not the server hasn't just broken in a different way, as bent as it is?
Underneath that, of course, is the idea that large fleet fights are somehow necessary at all, which is itself . . . questionable.
Maybe we might wonder what the effect of imposing different limitations on players might be. For instance, instead of only allowing them to execute X number of commands per second, what would happen if there was just a hard (or soft) cap on the number of people allowed in a system? That would fix the problem, too. What would happen if the amount of HP for these structures was reduced, so that you didn't need 2000 players to take them down? What would happen if structures just died after you shot them enough, instead of becoming invulnerable and necessitating a second, pre-scheduled confrontation? What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid?
In no way is it a dilemma between complete failure of the system and TiDi; I think. Only CCP knows for certain, and with their special insight, they have chosen the current "system by which the server handles lag a.k.a. TiDi".
What's funny is that if players actually had a choice, I bet some of them would prefer that the server failed entirely rather than TiDi. |
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
392
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:02:00 -
[201] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not [causing 10% TiDi] in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it. It's hard to imagine enough force to down a titan that quickly that doesn't cause some TiDi. It's also hard to imagine that the defenders of the titan would all log into the same system simultaneously and just sit around waiting while TiDi was rising and their titan was dying. I'd think they would start getting carrier groups into the non-TiDi engagement system to begin landing reps on their titan and to start pushing the TiDi meter in the engagement system towards that 10% mark. Even in the scenario where there is no TiDi in the engagement system and massive TiDi in the defender's staging system, all that has to be done is to fleet the appropriate people in the staging system and get cyno's lit in the engagement system. If your titan dies before you can even do that, then odds are that TiDi wasn't the cause of your loss so much as the efficiency of the opposing force. The titan is SUPPOSED to die in that scenario. The term is "hit-and-run". It's not "hit-and-stand-your-ground-while-the-opposition-musters-an-appropriately-sized-response-force", but that is effectively what TiDi makes a strike force do, stand their ground and face the response. Is TiDi good? Is it necessary? Is it lag? I don't know, probably yes to all three. But when it comes to the question of "Is it fair?", the answer is pretty clear.
Funny we lost a Titan to exactly that.
100 ships hitting a system will kick TiDi to 80% but only for a minute until the server catches up with building all of the characters and ships. That will melt a titan fast enough that mustering a savior fleet is going to be a near thing, Particularly when half of those ships are dreads. |
Mamucha
Rookie Empire Citizens Rookie Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:24:00 -
[202] - Quote
Clearly Op has newer been in big battle in time before TIDI. Otherwise he would not claim it be gambrakeing. Old mechanics massively favored the side that was allready in system when nodes handling barrier was reached..
Not saying TIDI is perfect, but its much better then what we had before. We are recruiting, see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=196504&find=unread |
Gorishimo Watia
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:27:00 -
[203] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
so why dont you get to work and think of a different solution. just saying that something is broken and it sucks but having no answer to the problem is pointless and you suck :) |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
536
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 17:31:00 -
[204] - Quote
I was at the titan fight. Tidi was only an issue because we were all in the same system. If we had been even 1 system over, that titan would have died in a fire because the CFC would have tidied themselves to hell and back forming up.
FC's knew that going in, but titan fights are always a good time. We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
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baltec1
Bat Country
7477
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 17:38:00 -
[205] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:I was at the titan fight. Tidi was only an issue because we were all in the same system. If we had been even 1 system over, that titan would have died in a fire because the CFC would have tidied themselves to hell and back forming up.
FC's knew that going in, but titan fights are always a good time.
Death to all cap ships. |
BrundleMeth
Temporal Mechanics
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 19:53:00 -
[206] - Quote
Yeah I've heard it all before. EVE is the best, EVE is the only MMO like this, blah, blah. But IMO EVE is ahead of it's time. The fact is, there is no likely environment available today to allow us to play EVE the way it should be played. What do I mean? If I am in a battle with 4000 people I want to see the exact same response as I would in a 5 man battle. Clicking my mouse and waiting 20 minutes or 2 hours for a response is not playing, it's crap.
And please spare me the "But the CCP guys work so hard" speech. I am not in any way dissing the good guys at CCP. I'm thinking we need another generation or three of hardware to get us to the level we would all like I assume....
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RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:32:00 -
[207] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Maybe we might wonder what the effect of imposing different limitations on players might be. For instance, instead of only allowing them to execute X number of commands per second, what would happen if there was just a hard (or soft) cap on the number of people allowed in a system?
So... first group to the battlefield after DT wins because the other group isn't allowed into the system.
Quote:That would fix the problem, too. What would happen if the amount of HP for these structures was reduced, so that you didn't need 2000 players to take them down? What would happen if structures just died after you shot them enough, instead of becoming invulnerable and necessitating a second, pre-scheduled confrontation?
1)You don't need 2000 players to take down a sov structure. You need 2000 players to beat the 2000 players defending it. 2)Smaller groups without perfect timezone coverage lose. Getting notice, and being able to set timers allow people to effectively defend their assets. The largest groups would be the only ones with any chance to defend arbitrary systems with no notice.
Quote:What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid?
Fights turn into Smartbombs-n-Bombs Online. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:35:00 -
[208] - Quote
Isn't that why stealth bombers are doing so well in large fights as it is?
AoE prevails when you take "delay" into consideration. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3995
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:38:00 -
[209] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Quote:What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid? Fights turn into Smartbombs-n-Bombs Online. FoF missiles might be useful again. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
392
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:47:00 -
[210] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Isn't that why stealth bombers are doing so well in large fights as it is?
AoE prevails when you take "delay" into consideration.
No they made it so that bombers don't decloak each other which makes them MUCH easier to fly. |
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