Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5426
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I guess youd rather have massive amounts of lag and desyncs.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Darth Kilth
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
141
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I guess youd rather have massive amounts of lag and desyncs.
And black screens, don't forget the blackscreen, followed up by logging in the next day not knowing if you're back in station or still in that system. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3920
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
So it would be fine as long as NC. was the bigger side then? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Rengerel en Distel
1740
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3920
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side. EVE is really harsh.
If you are ~elite pvp~ enough though then maybe you too can form an elite cadre, a true band of brothers that can There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
all because you flubbed a gank doesnt mean the game is broken, I would suggest taking some lessons from Black Legion. they seem to get the job done
nomadpls |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
>Implying that I flubbed any gank >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down >Implying that there isnt already massive amounts of lag in large fleet battles *COUGH*6VDT*COUGH*
pls. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3920
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
But without that you can't have every person in the world getting to Asakai in time. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3920
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 17:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:all because you flubbed a gank doesnt mean the game is broken, I would suggest taking some lessons from Black Legion. they seem to get the job done
nomadpls Black Legion
What should have happened is we all undocked and then the node crashes, taking all the ships out of space. Or a node remap of A-EP. no wait, opps!!! 40EP, no wait... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3768
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
So Black Screen turkey shoots are preferable for the smaller side who can't force them to happen..... wait... This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:So it would be fine as long as NC. was the bigger side then? No, it's bullshit if it happens to either side. I'm not speaking of either side here, im saying that Tidi is only good for the numerically larger side Unless you're TEST, then you dun goofed. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
3135
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:04:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Tidi is gamebreaking for the smaller side
I also understand it's not fashionably acceptable outside the Deadhead and LSD community.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Mellisa Jade
SYNDAX CORPORATION Yulai Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Im fairly sure Tidi is another word for Lag 'Time is to eternity, as the mind is to what surrounds us.' |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:>Implying that I flubbed any gank >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down >Implying that there isnt already massive amounts of lag in large fleet battles *COUGH*6VDT*COUGH*
pls.
Yes, you did flub a gank. If it was executed flawlessly you would have the undock securely bubbled so carriers undocking couldnt jump, you would have multiple drags set up off of the tackled titan and you would have a fast moving gang to tackle carriers/dreads/titans when they jump out and jump back to the tackled titan.
You flubbed it |
CompleteFailure
Polaris Rising Gentlemen's Agreement
78
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down
Yes, failure would indeed imply that your execution was, in fact, flawed.
HTFU |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:>Implying that I flubbed any gank >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down >Implying that there isnt already massive amounts of lag in large fleet battles *COUGH*6VDT*COUGH*
pls. Yes, you did flub a gank. If it was executed flawlessly you would have the undock securely bubbled so carriers undocking couldnt jump, you would have multiple drags set up off of the tackled titan and you would have a fast moving gang to tackle carriers/dreads/titans when they jump out and jump back to the tackled titan. You flubbed it Thread is not about flubbing gank, it is about tidi being advantageous to the bigger side. leigh pls go. |
Laserak
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
If I was planning this in my mind I would:
#1 Bubble the undock so carriers cant jump
#2 Titans and supers are gonna log in, we need drags so they cant warp to the distressed party
#3 They may jump out and jump back to the tackled titans cyno, where will they jump to? We need a gang there with dics and hics
#4 We need enough dps onfield quickly before a response fleet can form, warp to engagement and burn through drags
#5 Need exit cyno for dreads and extraction plan for subcaps
tl;dr you flubbed it keep trying though |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Laserak wrote:If I was planning this in my mind I would:
#1 Bubble the undock so carriers cant jump
#2 Titans and supers are gonna log in, we need drags so they cant warp to the distressed party
#3 They may jump out and jump back to the tackled titans cyno, where will they jump to? We need a gang there with dics and hics
#4 We need enough dps onfield quickly before a response fleet can form, warp to engagement and burn through drags
#5 Need exit cyno for dreads and extraction plan for subcaps
tl;dr you flubbed it keep trying though please see my last post |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:18:00 -
[20] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I guess youd rather have massive amounts of lag and desyncs.
I think in a game of power projection and bridges, simply having a real time game play at real time would be ideal.
Or TiDi the entire game when it happens. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
|
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Leigh Akiga wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:>Implying that I flubbed any gank >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down >Implying that there isnt already massive amounts of lag in large fleet battles *COUGH*6VDT*COUGH*
pls. Yes, you did flub a gank. If it was executed flawlessly you would have the undock securely bubbled so carriers undocking couldnt jump, you would have multiple drags set up off of the tackled titan and you would have a fast moving gang to tackle carriers/dreads/titans when they jump out and jump back to the tackled titan. You flubbed it Thread is not about flubbing gank, it is about tidi being advantageous to the bigger side. leigh pls go.
Hello Cult of War member Kitty Baugh, this is an internet spaceship discussion forum- as such I am attempting to discuss why I dont think time dilation is game breaking, many cases and instances where people complain about time dilation would not have been possible to begin with had the mechanic not been in place, all parties would crash to blackscreen.
You have used one specific instance where time dilation did not allow a course of events to go your way, I can put forth many cases where tidi has and will continue to be advantageous to smaller forces. This means that your entire position is arbitrary and relative to your point of view. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
5428
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.
If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
ElQuirko
Jester Syndicate S0UTHERN C0MF0RT
1687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:>Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down
Tactics will only stretch so far. In warfare, there is simply no chance for a force hugely outnumbered to beat its opponent if morale is not an issue in the field. Last I checked, we're all deific immortal spaceship pilots in the ethos of this game and therefore we have nothing to fear from death. So you have little no chance of routing any force bigger than yours. EVE favours weight of numbers; much as I hate it, suck it up. TiDi is a good thing for EVE all told. Save the Domi model! Spacewhales should be preserved. |
Kirtar Makanen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
15
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.
If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain. If it's TiDi across the whole game, imagine the tears from people in Jita when things like 6VDT-H have constant tidi for over 5 hours. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:I guess youd rather have massive amounts of lag and desyncs.
Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit, its just as infuriating as it was before. |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
401
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
You're bad.
tidi is awesome, and the only reason massive fleet fights are even possible. Some day the technology will get here where we don't need it. that day is not here yet.
As for OP's point, he is somewhat correct. Since time starts passing at differant rates outside and inside the combat zone, reinforcements for either side are able to arrive 'sooner' .. Really tho, this is the less of of several evils -- the other options being tidiing the entire game (no thanks) or turning off tidi which would just bring us back to the days of 'i was dead before grid loaded' |
Leigh Akiga
State War Academy Caldari State
39
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
Since you insist you are talking about generic tidi in general and not this particular instance- heres an example of how tidi benefits a smaller force.
Joe Schmoe gets tackled in system x, his brosefs are all docked in system y, Joe cries for help, all his bros login begin forming fleets and undocking creating tidi, they tidi themselves so bad it takes 10 minutes to complete a warp to a gate let alone the 4 jumps to where poor Joe is tackled.
Meanwhile, the small force happily destroys Joe tidi-free and with plenty of time to spare. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
So you missed the titan that died because we were tidi d to hell and you guys were running real time a single bridge away?
Quit crying.
|
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Chandaris wrote:You're bad.
tidi is awesome, and the only reason massive fleet fights are even possible. Some day the technology will get here where we don't need it. that day is not here yet.
As for OP's point, he is somewhat correct. Since time starts passing at differant rates outside and inside the combat zone, reinforcements for either side are able to arrive 'sooner' .. Really tho, this is the less of of several evils -- the other options being tidiing the entire game (no thanks) or turning off tidi which would just bring us back to the days of 'i was dead before grid loaded'
Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder. Oh and we used to have massive fights before tidi came in just fyi |
Victor Dathar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
105
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: Thread is not about flubbing gank
Yes it is |
|
Implying Implications
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
399
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
EVE is gamebreaking for the smaller side. sÅ»µä¢püòpü»µ¡út+¬püápÇé |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:43:00 -
[32] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable?
No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag.
Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Moctobot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
This thread is going places!
"Almost Flawlessly Executed." <--- There is the problem. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.
Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!!
It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot.
and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tippia wrote:They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.
How do you know? do you have the change log of everything that was optimised? Are you part of the development team? Do you know exactly what the issues where? Did they completely rewrite every bit of old code?
Well they didnt really did they... lets get that right. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:How do you know? Because I followed the development through many a blog and test. SoGǪ
Quote:Well they didnt really did they... GǪsure they did. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it. Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!! It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot. and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny.
Nice sperg, you are either being willingly blind or you never saw a 900 man battle before tidi.
It isn't close to the same thing. |
Rodney Pooner
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tidi works both ways.
With the 6VDT titan kill GSF had massive tidi trying to undock from 4-ep, giving time for NC. and test to kill said titan.
Dont try to gank a Supercap in a Staging system where a simple rage ping puts 2000 people in system.
|
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:How do you know? Because I followed the development through many a blog and test. SoGǪ Quote:Well they didnt really did they... GǪsure they did.
Right.... OK.... that proves everything then....dear oh dear
|
Mellisa Jade
SYNDAX CORPORATION Yulai Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:54:00 -
[40] - Quote
Its not lag its slow motion graphics - saw this quoted on a T-shirt in the amazing game known as Second life 'Time is to eternity, as the mind is to what surrounds us.' |
|
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:55:00 -
[41] - Quote
Onictus wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it. Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!! It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot. and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny. Nice sperg, you are either being willingly blind or you never saw a 900 man battle before tidi. It isn't close to the same thing.
No your right, i havent been involved in it at all..... Your right, tidi as made it so much better....
|
Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
246
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
TiDi sucks.
The alternative is far worse. Tidi goes into play when the server is unable to keep up with the load. Without TiDi, the game starts dropping calls, losing players, damage, module activation, etc. Server behavior becomes unpredictable and ends up with people getting randomly screwed over for losing the server lottery. You get people with working guns shooting at people who are still looking at black screens.
TiDi on the other hand still sucks. But it sucks predictably and fairly.
TiDi is the best thing to happen to large fleet battles, even though it is the entire cause of Asakai style battles. In the end this might not be a bad thing. |
Moostang
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
What about the titan you all killed of ours after the 6vdt fight? We, the bigger side, couldn't save that one because Tidi kicked in while we were trying to log into 4-ep while you all had no tidi. I started logging in before the ping went out but by the time I landed from the initial log-in-warp, the titan was dead.
I prefer tidi over the alternative. Before tidi our clients wouldn't update, guns wouldn't fire, killed ships would still be alive and shooting back at you with 0 armor/structure/shields...not counting the node crashes, the inability to login, and the blackscreens that would prevent the fights from happening at all. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:57:00 -
[44] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Right.... OK.... that proves everything then....dear oh dear It proves a hell of a lot more than just stomping your feet and yelling Gǣit's not working because I say soGǥ and not being able to point toGǪ wellGǪ anything, really.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Dismas Ofstedal
Blueprint Haus Get Off My Lawn
2
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:58:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tidi is a method for managing lag without crashing the servers. Fact of life. Get over it.
But here's a thought. While the enemy is rallying in real time to save the titan, why aren't you rallying in real time to fill your fleet? Seems the field is still level.
|
Antir
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 18:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it. Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!! It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot. and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny.
Lag is very different to TiDi, in lag commands are randomaly lost, in TiDi they just take longer to occur. I have fought in large fleet fights pre TiDi and I can tell you 6vdt ran better than any of them (the battle of pnqy when taking fountain from IT comes to mind). I was able to load system, cycle all my modules and see what was going on. TiDi is a bandaid but it makes the unplayable playable and even. |
Mr R4nd0m
Retribution.
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Antir wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it. Tippia listen, open those ears and listen. How do you think that waiting 20/30 mins for 'something to happen' is any better than how it was before? Its exactly the same as it was before!! It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation? Its still bloody lag you total idiot. and yes it is lag with an official name, thats my opinion if you dont like that opinion you can shove it where the sun dont shine sunny. Lag is very different to TiDi, in lag commands are randomaly lost, in TiDi they just take longer to occur. I have fought in large fleet fights pre TiDi and I can tell you 6vdt ran better than any of them (the battle of pnqy when taking fountain from IT comes to mind). I was able to load system, cycle all my modules and see what was going on. TiDi is a bandaid but it makes the unplayable playable and even.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(online_gaming)
i would be interested to know how tidi IS different? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Mr R4nd0m wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(online_gaming)
i would be interested to know how tidi IS different? Well, just going by this sentence at the very beginning: GÇ£[a]lthough lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or serverGÇ¥ GÇö the difference is that TiDi ensures that there is sufficient processing power, and it is a separate issue from latencyGǪ
GǪnot that you should have many latency issues during multi-second server ticks anyway. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Mr R4nd0m
Retribution.
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Mr R4nd0m wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(online_gaming)
i would be interested to know how tidi IS different? Well, just going by this sentence at the very beginning: GÇ£[a]lthough lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or serverGÇ¥ GÇö the difference is that TiDi ensures that there is sufficient processing power, and it is a separate issue from latencyGǪ GǪnot that you should have many latency issues during multi-second server ticks anyway.
Perhaps you should read the rest of the articles |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
3237
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
TiDi seems maddening.
But I have seen it described more times than I can recall how people would fly into a fleet battle, get a black screen once they got on grid, and then clone vat. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.
If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain.
Everytime fountain TiDi's we get affected in Syndicate... I'm not sure how it would be different it it was game wide like it should be.
/shrug
As it is what I know now as fact, I will try to remember it since it's the Solution(TM). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it.
If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's lag.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's not the answer. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Mr R4nd0m
Retribution.
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Tippia wrote:tiberiusric wrote:Are you mad?, what do you think TIDI is? its just lag with an official name. It doesnt help one bit So you don't think that keeping the game running and working in a predictable and consistent matter counts as GÇ£helpingGÇ¥ compared to the alternative of the game shutting down and/or no longer being predictable? No. TiDi is not lag with an official name. It's controlled and graceful degradation of the world simulation, specifically to avoid the inconsistencies, unresponsiveness, and unpredictability of actual lag. Quote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder They did that. TiDi was first the solution to come out of it. If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's lag. It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's not the answer.
Amen! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
Mr R4nd0m wrote:Perhaps you should read the rest of the articles You mean things like GÇ£Lag causes numerous problems for issues such as accurate rendering of the game state and hit detection. In many games, lag is often frowned upon because it disrupts normal gameplayGÇ¥, which is exactly the kind of thing TiDi removes?
Or GÇ£Lag caused by an insufficient update rate between client and server can cause some problems, but these are generally limited to the client itself. Other players may notice jerky movement and similar problems for the affected client, but the real problem lies with the client itselfGÇ¥, which, as mentioned, is mainly a client problem, but which is something TiDi alleviates as well?
Or GÇ£Conversely, the same [a low frame rate would make the game less responsive to updates and may force it to skip outdated data] hold true for the server. The frame rate (or tick rate) of the server determines how often it can process data from clients and send updates. This type of problem is difficult to predict and compensate forGÇ¥, which is exactly that TiDi is compensating for?
Or GÇ£Lag causes numerous problems for issues such as accurate rendering of the game state and hit detectionGÇ¥, which is exactly what TiDi avoids?
Or GÇ£Lag caused by an insufficient update rate between client and server can cause some problems, but these are generally limited to the client itselfGÇ¥, which is avoided by the way TiDi is handled in the client?
Or GÇ£The main purpose of server-side lag compensation is instead to provide accurate effects of client actionsGÇ¥, which is exactly what TiDi does?
So, yeahGǪ the difference is (still) that TiDi ensures that there is sufficient processing power, so that none of those lag-related problems arise.
Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's lag. Sounds more like slowdown to me GÇö you know, the thing that TiDi replaces actual lag effects with? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really.
And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers.
|
Din Chao
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
303
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:36:00 -
[56] - Quote
Solution: Don't be the smaller side. |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote: Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces |
Lord Charles Gatsby
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
What is so great about fountain anyhow ? im making billions every day in Jita Amarr and Rens on trades.
Dont be a slave too your 0.0 overlords who expect you to give up your time to defend Thier assets: thier moons thier intrests.
Dont work for someone else's dreams.
|
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:41:00 -
[59] - Quote
Lord Charles Gatsby wrote:What is so great about fountain anyhow ? im making billions every day in Jita Amarr and Rens on trades.
Dont be a slave too your 0.0 overlords who expect you to give up your time to defend Thier assets: thier moons thier intrests.
Dont work for someone else's dreams.
Stop derailing the thread This is not about fountain or the events of the fountain conflict, there are other threads about them and you should go there to discuss them, not here.
This thread is about Tidi and its effects on those fighting under it. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer.
FTFY
TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. |
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services Russian International Allegiance
196
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
From your link: Quote:Lag is a common word meaning to fail to keep up or to fall behind
TiDi is 100% intentional. It's not failing to keep up or falling behind.
What's next ? SlowMo in a movie ... OMG lag ! Bullet-time in an FPS ... OMG lag ! Clocks being turned back for Wintertime ... OMG lag !
Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
|
Lord Charles Gatsby
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:43:00 -
[62] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Lord Charles Gatsby wrote:What is so great about fountain anyhow ? im making billions every day in Jita Amarr and Rens on trades.
Dont be a slave too your 0.0 overlords who expect you to give up your time to defend Thier assets: thier moons thier intrests.
Dont work for someone else's dreams.
Stop derailing the thread This is not about fountain or the events of the fountain conflict, there are other threads about them and you should go there to discuss them, not here. This thread is about Tidi and its effects on those fighting under it.
Well theres no real reason to discuss TiDi all it is is LAg under a different name. What happens is everything goes really slowly and it makes the game breakdown so much its just rediculous. Not a lot else to say about it.
What do you expect. Was only 10 years ago that 16vs 16 on Counterstrike source seemed like the future of multiplayter gaming. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:44:00 -
[63] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:No your right, i havent been involved in it at all..... Your right, tidi as made it so much better....
Does grid load? Yes Do bombs work? Yes, I remember bombs just staying in place at around 700 local Drones respond? Yes Module's work? Yes
CLUSTER CRASH, No.
Yup, sounds a lot better than the bad old days. |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
3
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi? In some of the bigger fights which are at max Tidi, I can click my modules ad it takes over 2 minutes for them to activate, changing crystals in beam weapons took the duration of <20 AU warp at max tidi and a few minutes afterwards |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:46:00 -
[65] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote: Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces
It was a perfectly valid example of TiDi working against the larger force. As you explicitly stated the opposite in your OP. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:50:00 -
[66] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote: Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces
That wasn't last night, it was Sunday's shananigans after 6VDT, and the titan was successfully ganked that time.
A titan was bumped and tackled and we couldn't get a savior fleet into system because 6VDT was running real time and 1400 raging Clusterfuckians rage logging brought our staging sysetm to 10% TiDi.
We couldn't get there fast enough. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:51:00 -
[67] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi? No. The client and server are still in sync with TiDi, it may not keep up with your inputs but it is still in-sync. Its intentional, lag isn't. Yes there'sca delay but unfortunately thats unavoidable. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:53:00 -
[68] - Quote
Slowdown, Tidi, lag... all the same.
If I have 100% real time and I press a button and the server accepts my input and shows me an immediate result, it's working as intended.
Now, in regards to slowdown tidi lag **** all, if I press a button and don't see a result, it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.
If I blackscreen from server overload and cannot press a button with immediate result it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit.
Regardless of the color of sprinkles you want to put on that piece of ****, it's still ****.
Both result in the same thing; me not having a direct response from me pressing a button.
But that's not even the biggest element here in this thread, because TiDi is going to help the smaller guy out more often than not because in a game where client commands creates lag/slowdown/tidi/fuckallbadshit... the larger force is usually the culprit and therefore does not need to depend on skill but brute force basically decapitating the smaller force who has to focus on their reaction times in game that's subject to hardware limitations (contrary to what Eve advertises itself as having). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Rodney Pooner
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:54:00 -
[69] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi? In some of the bigger fights which are at max Tidi, I can click my modules ad it takes over 2 minutes for them to activate, changing crystals in beam weapons took the duration of <20 AU warp at max tidi and a few minutes afterwards
TiDi is not the perfect solution, but it is a far better solution than the old lag/crash fest of the old days.
You have to adjust your tactics to the mechanics, it was mentioned about the 6VDT gank where the mass undocking in 4-EP cause 10% TiDI while Test ans friends were happily blapping away at the titan in relative safety.
While TiDi in 4-ep last night worked to test and friends disadvantage.
Use the mechanics of the game and adjust your tactics. The game isnt broke, your tactics are lacking.
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:54:00 -
[70] - Quote
So if there was really any question.
The TiDi givith http://themittani.com/news/4-ep-titan-gank-goes-awry-capital-battle-results
....and the TiDi taketh away http://themittani.com/news/alod-third-time-charm
It doesn't only work for the larger party. Trust me. |
|
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
OP, these are the 2 different examples I was referring to. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15827
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:56:00 -
[72] - Quote
Lord Charles Gatsby wrote:Well theres no real reason to discuss TiDi all it is is LAg under a different name. What happens is everything goes really slowly and it makes the game breakdown so much its just rediculous. Not a lot else to say about it. GǪapart from the bit where TiDi very specifically is not lag and that everything goes really slowly and it makes the game not break down. In fact, that's kind of the point of TiDi: to ensure that the game stays the same and none of the gamebreaking effects of serverload-induced lag occur. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
Firstly, TiDi doesn't give any advantage to the larger side. If anything, it gives a huge advantage to the smaller side during a significant fleet action, allowing them time to scramble reinforcements before incurring the same losses they would during normal time against a larger fleet. Duh.
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist. Google itself could not handle real time client(there's the key term btw, real time) server interactions at this level. If you think it can be done (with your undoubtedly expert network knowledge) then prove CCP wrong and do it yourself. Otherwise, just shut up.
It's the preferable alternative to the game crashing, or warping in and ending up dead. If you think gatecamps are bad now? Try jumping into a system, closing your eyes for 90 seconds, and only then can you start to move your ship. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 19:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Firstly, TiDi doesn't give any advantage to the larger side. If anything, it gives a huge advantage to the smaller side during a significant fleet action, allowing them time to scramble reinforcements before incurring the same losses they would during normal time against a larger fleet. Duh.
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist. Google itself could not handle real time client(there's the key term btw, real time) server interactions at this level. If you think it can be done (with your undoubtedly expert network knowledge) then prove CCP wrong and do it yourself. Otherwise, just shut up.
It's the preferable alternative to the game crashing, or warping in and ending up dead. If you think gatecamps are bad now? Try jumping into a system, closing your eyes for 90 seconds, and only then can you start to move your ship.
Scramble reinforcements to the smaller side? You mean the smaller side who have everybody at a computer online, in fleet and shooting the titain?
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:01:00 -
[75] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist.
Correct, the EvE cluster is a distributed super computer, similar to Sandia's Red Storm (the first of its type if I remember right).
There is NOTHING better on the market, they are the servers that run Google's cloud databases, Amazon's market place, and the rigs that do Wall Streets automated training. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
371
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Firstly, TiDi doesn't give any advantage to the larger side. If anything, it gives a huge advantage to the smaller side during a significant fleet action, allowing them time to scramble reinforcements before incurring the same losses they would during normal time against a larger fleet. Duh.
Secondly, I have never heard anyone who played the game before TiDi existed, complain about it. So if you think the game would be better without it, sorry, but you're a noob. "oh, but get better equipment"... it doesn't exist. Google itself could not handle real time client(there's the key term btw, real time) server interactions at this level. If you think it can be done (with your undoubtedly expert network knowledge) then prove CCP wrong and do it yourself. Otherwise, just shut up.
It's the preferable alternative to the game crashing, or warping in and ending up dead. If you think gatecamps are bad now? Try jumping into a system, closing your eyes for 90 seconds, and only then can you start to move your ship. Scramble reinforcements to the smaller side? You mean the smaller side who have everybody at a computer online, in fleet and shooting the titain?
Perhaps.
Fact is that when you are fighting in 10% that reinforcements are running ten times faster than you are which can be a blessing or a curse, its situational. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Quote:Scramble reinforcements to the smaller side? You mean the smaller side who have everybody at a computer online, in fleet and shooting the titain?
The answer to that is: Get more friends or it's tough luck. Friends are totally overpowered in EVE. I also find it hard to believe you don't have any unengaged blues.
And if not, then you picked a bad fight. Too bad, so sad. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
177
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:06:00 -
[78] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Now, in regards to slowdown tidi lag **** all, if I press a button and don't see a result, it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit. If you press a button and don't see a result, that's lag.
Murk Paradox wrote:If I blackscreen from server overload and cannot press a button with immediate result it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit. If you blackscreen from server overload, that's lag.
If you have TiDi and no lag, you press a button and your result is still immediate. Your guns turn on when you press the button. They turn off when you press the button. Your ship starts locking other ships when you press the button. Locking takes longer, and so do warps, and aligning, and most other actions. But the commands are still processed immediately.
The whole point of TiDi is to slow down the simulation so that the server has enough (wall clock) time per simulation tick to evaluate everything that should happen in that tick. This is in contrast to lag, where the server does not have enough time to calculate everything that should be happening in that tick, and defers some commands to a later tick. |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
20
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services Russian International Allegiance
197
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:08:00 -
[80] - Quote
Here just a reminder of what lag was like in 2010 with less than 200 in local.
Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
|
|
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:09:00 -
[81] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned.
Yeah, because BoB wasn't totally defeated by an upstart coalition with more guts than them, and almost no other advantage... (despite the wide rumor that BoB had devhaxx) Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.
It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer. FTFY TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi. This doesnt happen with Tidi? No. The client and server are still in sync with TiDi, it may not keep up with your inputs but it is still in-sync. Its intentional, lag isn't. Yes there's a delay but unfortunately thats unavoidable.
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:12:00 -
[83] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
177
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:19:00 -
[85] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.
You hoped anyway.
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:19:00 -
[86] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries. Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.
But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is.
It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker.
It's just ugly. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:21:00 -
[87] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.
Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.
The why and whatfors do not impact the fact it happens.
Sugar coating **** doesn't change what it is, only how it tastes before you start chewing.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:27:00 -
[88] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries. Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is. It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker. It's just ugly.
You are a seriously dense monkey dude. For real.
First, the cycle from client server communication is called latency Second lag is a result of a processor que times. If the queue processing exceeds the the client update rate, you have lag. Third , I'm a hardware engineer by trade, what CCP has done with server loads is on par with amazon's scalable cloud architecture.
That being said I don't think anyone has a REAL TIME (Amazon's services aren't real time) dynamic load sharing architecutre working, and if they do they aren't marketing it for anything, its in a datacenter for a multi-billion dollar a year bank and they don't want ANYONE else seeing it.
Suffice it to say its extraordinarily difficult to break threads and reassign them to different logical procs in a real time environment, my company has been working at it to varying degrees for the better part of ten years. |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:29:00 -
[89] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?
TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.
People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries. Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is. It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker. It's just ugly.
No fanboiing, its just TiDi and lag are different things. They both cause delays but in different ways for different reasons. TiDi keeps inputs in order, lag doesn't.
In the end its a bit of a moot point, its unavoidable for now so what do you expect CCP to do about it? |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services Russian International Allegiance
197
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
/me feels awfully reminded how people argued that EVE is just as instanced as other MMOs ...
I found another video of how bad lag was. Just watch the client freeze and desync. Love how the client switches 10 times between the Rokh and the loading window, after the ship is long dead.
Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
|
|
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
177
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:32:00 -
[91] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.
Your definition of lag is utterly useless. In fact that definition is so terrible, that I can claim removing a fleet booster creates lag. How? Well point A is "Your remote rep is inactive", point B is "Your remote rep is active". If you have a fleet booster with a rapid repair link, your reps cycle faster than without, so you can go A to B to A in a shorter time than when he dies. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services Russian International Allegiance
197
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:34:00 -
[92] - Quote
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:... so what do you expect CCP to do about it?
Mmh, how about capping each solar system in 0.0 to 200 players. 100 vs 100 makes for nice fleet fights too ... and too bad if you jump into a system with 199 enemies inside .
I still can't believe they managed to squeeze 4000 players into a fight and not crash. Join the in-game channel 'The Greater Fool Bar' now.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3922
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:42:00 -
[93] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time. Time is Dilated. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Whitehound
1718
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:51:00 -
[94] - Quote
There is a trick how one can turn TiDi off and have the game respond like in the old times...
...pull the plug of your network. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Sl33py Loco
Mindstar Technology Fatal Ascension
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 20:59:00 -
[95] - Quote
tldr
"We had a for sure Titan kill the CFC instantly responded with overwhelming force and dunked the attacking fleet that now blames tidi for them missing said Titan kill."
/thread |
Mr R4nd0m
Retribution.
114
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:06:00 -
[96] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sirane Elrek wrote:Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time. Time is Dilated.
oh god its lag no matter how you try spin it lol...
far later point in time? err thats what TiDi does lol. You activate a mod, 30 mins later it actions...duh |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:21:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
far later point in time? err thats what TiDi does lol. You activate a mod, 30 mins later it actions...duh
Quite spamming the button like a methed out hamster and it usually goes in a relatively predictable fashion.
Fighting with 4000 in a system (or even 1500 unreinforced) yeah, you are getting TiDi and lag.......it not prefect but its better than the alternatives.
....and I've NEVER seen a 30 minute mod activation, like 10-15 seconds maybe, certainly nothing over a minute. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:21:00 -
[98] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
You are a seriously dense monkey dude. For real.
First, the cycle from client server communication is called latency Second lag is a result of a processor que times. If the queue processing exceeds the the client update rate, you have lag. Third , I'm a hardware engineer by trade, what CCP has done with server loads is on par with amazon's scalable cloud architecture.
That being said I don't think anyone has a REAL TIME (Amazon's services aren't real time) dynamic load sharing architecutre working, and if they do they aren't marketing it for anything, its in a datacenter for a multi-billion dollar a year bank and they don't want ANYONE else seeing it.
Suffice it to say its extraordinarily difficult to break threads and reassign them to different logical procs in a real time environment, my company has been working at it to varying degrees for the better part of ten years.
Latency is the time, lag is the result. Has nothing to do with a processor. Lag has to do with the connection you have to a host, the latency is the rate of time used to measure lag. If you are a hardware engineer, you should know this since you would be dealing with pings and packets for connectivity topologies.
"But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
380
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Latency is the time, lag is the result.
The two have nothing to do with each other. One is a consequence of network communication, and the other is releated to processing resources.
Try to focus. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
446
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 21:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.
Your definition of lag is utterly useless. In fact that definition is so terrible, that I can claim removing a fleet booster creates lag. How? Well point A is "Your remote rep is inactive", point B is "Your remote rep is active". If you have a fleet booster with a rapid repair link, your reps cycle faster than without, so you can go A to B to A in a shorter time than when he dies.
That makes no sense. Stop. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3773
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 22:40:00 -
[101] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Latency is the time, lag is the result. Has nothing to do with a processor. Lag has to do with the connection you have to a host, the latency is the rate of time used to measure lag. If you are a hardware engineer, you should know this since you would be dealing with pings and packets for connectivity topologies.
Your definition of lag is simply not the same as everyone else's.
Wiki wrote:In online gaming, lag is a noticeable delay between the action of players and the reaction of the server. Although lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or server.
EVE's pretty latency tolerant due to the 1 Hz simulation rate (a bad connection isn't likely to have a 1,000ms ping), so virtually all the Lag in EVE comes from insufficient processing power. In TiDi environments, EVE becomes incredibly latency tolerant, as the simulation rate drops do a floor of around .1Hz.
TiDi slows down the simulation to reduce the processing power needed to run the simulation to an amount that it has available. The server reacts to the player in the same tick it normally would (i.e. the tick after the command is received), so there is no delay introduced by TiDi.
If you're going to argue that anything that slows down gameplay is lag, you're simply using a different definition of the term than everyone else, and so you'll have to defend why that definition is better before continuing to use it. So, why do you define bullet-time in an FPS as lag? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 22:58:00 -
[102] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Now, in regards to slowdown tidi lag **** all, if I press a button and don't see a result, it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit. If you press a button and don't see a result, that's lag. Murk Paradox wrote:If I blackscreen from server overload and cannot press a button with immediate result it's slowdown/tidi/lag/fuckallbadshit. If you blackscreen from server overload, that's lag. If you have TiDi and no lag, you press a button and your result is still immediate. Your guns turn on when you press the button. They turn off when you press the button. Your ship starts locking other ships when you press the button. Locking takes longer, and so do warps, and aligning, and most other actions. But the commands are still processed immediately. The whole point of TiDi is to slow down the simulation so that the server has enough (wall clock) time per simulation tick to evaluate everything that should happen in that tick. This is in contrast to lag, where the server does not have enough time to calculate everything that should be happening in that tick, and defers some commands to a later tick.
He nailed it the rest of you trying to argue against his points are morons and should never accept a job in ICT. |
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 23:02:00 -
[103] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Sirane Elrek wrote:Onictus wrote:Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.
Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times. We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time. Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again. The why and whatfors do not impact the fact it happens. Sugar coating **** doesn't change what it is, only how it tastes before you start chewing.
Actually lag is caused by TCP sequence numbers being out of sync which causes the server to resend. This happens when packets get dropped along the route or when your router melts due to you raging on the EvE forums.
http://packetlife.net/blog/2010/jun/7/understanding-tcp-sequence-acknowledgment-numbers/
Go read before running your mouth boy
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc0793.txt |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Brethren.
37
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 23:32:00 -
[104] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Latency is the time, lag is the result. Has nothing to do with a processor. Lag has to do with the connection you have to a host, the latency is the rate of time used to measure lag. If you are a hardware engineer, you should know this since you would be dealing with pings and packets for connectivity topologies.
Your definition of lag is simply not the same as everyone else's. Wiki wrote:In online gaming, lag is a noticeable delay between the action of players and the reaction of the server. Although lag may be caused by high latency, it may also occur due to insufficient processing power in the client and/or server. EVE's pretty latency tolerant due to the 1 Hz simulation rate (a bad connection isn't likely to have a 1,000ms ping), so virtually all the Lag in EVE comes from insufficient processing power. In TiDi environments, EVE becomes incredibly latency tolerant, as the simulation rate drops do a floor of around .1Hz. TiDi slows down the simulation to reduce the processing power needed to run the simulation to an amount that it has available. The server reacts to the player in the same tick it normally would (i.e. the tick after the command is received), so there is no delay introduced by TiDi. If you're going to argue that anything that slows down gameplay is lag, you're simply using a different definition of the term than everyone else, and so you'll have to defend why that definition is better before continuing to use it. So, why do you define bullet-time in an FPS as lag?
Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag. You can spout all the technical BS you like. In the real world to a player it's lag. And nothing you say will change my opinion of that.
I know I'll say to my clients, sorry sir it's not lag, cos some dumb eve player says its not, cos technically tis is why, don't worry your imagining its lag, because we purposely slow things down, so technically it's not lag.
You know what they would say? Get f.....d, that's what and stop taking me for an idiot.
|
bloodknight2
Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
128
|
Posted - 2013.07.30 23:45:00 -
[105] - Quote
If you hate lag and TiDi, go back in empire. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15831
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 00:02:00 -
[106] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag. GǪand what TiDi does is ensure that stuff keeps reaction at the time it should and giving you the expected feedback on what's happening, as opposed to not doing anything or doing something at a completely different time than you expect or doing something without telling you.
Your not giving two effs about the technical definition is does not change that definition, nor does it change the fact that you're just flat out wrong if you equate slowdown with lag. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4419
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 00:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
Oh yes, crashing to a black screen would have secured your victory.
In a severe lag situation, this is what happens.
In a Tidi situation the commands get processed... everything happens slower but EVERYTHING HAPPENS.
Next time plan your gank to allow enough time for success, this includes the fact that Tidi will kick in before the game crashes on you. Anything less is a miscalculation on your part. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
687
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 00:07:00 -
[108] - Quote
Quote:Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag.
So what? It might be your opinion, but your opinion is still wrong.
Lag is by definition unintentional. TiDi is on purpose.
Seriously, go re-read what you just wrote, you sound like a whiny little child. Don't like the fact that they have to simulate things in 1/10ths time to handle the server load fairly? Tough. That's how it works, and it's the best solution to lag that any company to date has put in place. Well, that or just blame the user and have constant crashes, like pretty much every other major developer does. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Admiral Sarah Solette
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 00:26:00 -
[109] - Quote
I'm in no way an expert on how the server mechanics work, so this may be comepletely wrong.
Would it be possible to tidi the entire server to a minimal amount rather than tiding a single node to a ridiculous ammount?
So instead of node A running at 90% tidi and the rest of the server having no tidi, node A and the rest of the server would run at 1% tidi. This would give both sides equal times to respond and would stop any complaints on the subject. It would also decrease server load, which is the purpose of tidi.
However like I said, I'm not an expert on the server mechanics so I could have the completely wrong idea. I have no idea if this is even possible with the way the nodes work.
Just my uninformed two cents. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3922
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 00:29:00 -
[110] - Quote
Admiral Sarah Solette wrote:I'm in no way an expert on how the server mechanics work, so this may be comepletely wrong.
Would it be possible to tidi the entire server to a minimal amount rather than tiding a single node to a ridiculous ammount?
So instead of node A running at 90% tidi and the rest of the server having no tidi, node A and the rest of the server would run at 1% tidi. This would give both sides equal times to respond and would stop any complaints on the subject. It would also decrease server load, which is the purpose of tidi.
However like I said, I'm not an expert on the server mechanics so I could have the completely wrong idea. I have no idea if this is even possible with the way the nodes work.
Just my uninformed two cents. No, because EVE doesn't use parallel processing, you can't have multiple servers running the same thing. During 6VDT, the Jita node was not doing anything but running 6VDT, and that's the best hardware they have. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 00:44:00 -
[111] - Quote
Admiral Sarah Solette wrote:I'm in no way an expert on how the server mechanics work, so this may be comepletely wrong.
Would it be possible to tidi the entire server to a minimal amount rather than tiding a single node to a ridiculous ammount?
So instead of node A running at 90% tidi and the rest of the server having no tidi, node A and the rest of the server would run at 1% tidi. This would give both sides equal times to respond and would stop any complaints on the subject. It would also decrease server load, which is the purpose of tidi.
However like I said, I'm not an expert on the server mechanics so I could have the completely wrong idea. I have no idea if this is even possible with the way the nodes work.
Just my uninformed two cents.
You could probably tidi the whole server ( see what I did there ? ) but its not the issue. Each eve system runs on one CPU. Due to its programming language you can't put one system on more CPU's. So when a whole bunch of people start shooting the CPU maxes out and becomes unresponsive. This used to cause "lag" I.e. player actions got dropped by the CPU or were executed 10 mins later. Clients failed to load because the CPU simply didn't respond ect. Tidi slows down the game so the CPU can execute each command in the proper sequence I.e. player a shoots player b he does this before player b shoots back. So the CPU has to execute commands in that order not the other way around or not at all.
This is what tidi does. Now if you do that on the entire server cluster things such as buying a ship, fitting it, running missions or trading in jita would also slow down. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3773
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 01:38:00 -
[112] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Personally I don't give 2 fs what you think the technical solution/answer/definition is, TO ME if something isn't reacting at the same time as as it should, or it's it's 'lagging behind' - TO ME it's lag. You can spout all the technical BS you like. In the real world to a player it's lag. And nothing you say will change my opinion of that.
In TiDi, everything reacts at the same time that it should. That time is simply slowed down to prevent what happens in actual lag (i.e. dropped connections because the server doesn't have a cycle to read your client's message saying you're still there, dropped commands because the server pushes your "shoot the gun" command off until it has a moment then forgets it, blackscreens on loading grid because the server doesn't have time to even send your client data, having your ship shoot off grid at an absurd speed instead of exploding because the server can't handle a ship explosion right now).
Under TiDi, everything continues to run normally, just at a reduced rate. In high lag environments, the server tries to do things at the normal rate and catastrophically fails at it.
Quote:I know I'll say to my clients, sorry sir it's not lag, cos some dumb eve player says its not, cos technically tis is why, don't worry your imagining its lag, because we purposely slow things down, so technically it's not lag.
"Sir, to ensure that your obligate single-threaded data is processed correctly, we've had to reduce the rate at which each change is processed." If you actually have "clients" for real-time data processing, I weep for them.
Quote:You know what they would say? Get f.....d, that's what and stop taking me for an idiot. They would also say, I don't care what's going on server side, client side it's running like a dog, and severely lagging, and it's unusable, go fix it. No one ever in the commercial world would ever, ever put up with that excuse or solution. They would simply cancel the contract. But eve players just put up with it and think its a great solution. Doh
CCP did fix it. TiDi runs great, just slowly. Before TiDi, highly stressed systems ran like crap (see above examples).
Anton, a supercomputer running protein folding simulations can handle simulating 17,000 nanoseconds of simulation each day per 512-core node. That's a TiDi factor of 1.9*10^-8%. Are scientists pulling contracts with their supercomputer provider because of TiDi? No, because the recognize that correct simulation is the top priority.
In EVE, TiDi is in place because correct simulation is one of the top priorities. The 10% limit is in place because correct simulation is not the only priority. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
730
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 01:58:00 -
[113] - Quote
I heard more than a mouthful of Tidi is wasted. This thread has so much content it may be 'Thread of the Year' and it is only January.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3923
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 02:20:00 -
[114] - Quote
So people are whining about TiDi now, because NC. forgot to take into account an important game mechanic.
Ok. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3773
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 02:48:00 -
[115] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:So people are whining about TiDi now, because NC. forgot to take into account an important game mechanic.
Ok.
How to get all of EVE on your side, A forum Guide: 1) Pick a fight with Goonswarm/the CFC 2) Lose a battle/miss a kill 3) ???? 4) Profit This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Apocryphal Noise
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
72
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 02:56:00 -
[116] - Quote
Haha, you got the erebus to 60% armor, it wasn't even remotely close. Perfectly executed? AHAHHAHAHAHAH
You didn't commit enough dreads anyway if you wanted to kill a titan in goon staging. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3925
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 03:11:00 -
[117] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:So people are whining about TiDi now, because NC. forgot to take into account an important game mechanic.
Ok. How to get all of EVE on your side, A forum Guide: 1) Pick a fight with Goonswarm/the CFC 2) Lose a battle/miss a kill 3) ???? 4) Profit Yep, TEST had us right where they wanted us. They had the elite Pandemic Legion, and the forces of N3, who exist to kill the CFC, on their side almost instantly when we fell into their trap and invaded Fountain.
And Tribe. They had BL as well, but you know, we cheated and paid them more. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3925
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 03:13:00 -
[118] - Quote
Apocryphal Noise wrote:Haha, you got the erebus to 60% armor, it wasn't even remotely close. Perfectly executed? AHAHHAHAHAHAH
You didn't commit enough dreads anyway if you wanted to kill a titan in goon staging. I think it reached like 50%, so give them the credit for that.
I was one of the first armor carriers to get there, I think the titan was at like 50% when I had locked it and started throwing reps. Pretty good that he HAD A CYNO. Unlike, you know, that Li3 titan, who did not have a cyno.... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kossaw
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
72
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 04:01:00 -
[119] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Youre bad for saying technology aint here yet lol. Try optimising code, trying optimising databases, try adding more hardware, try harder. Oh and we used to have massive fights before tidi came in just fyi
You really are completely f***ing clueless aren't you.
WTB : An image in my signature |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3926
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 05:01:00 -
[120] - Quote
Laserak wrote:If I was planning this in my mind I would:
#1 Bubble the undock so carriers cant jump
#2 Titans and supers are gonna log in, we need drags so they cant warp to the distressed party
#3 They may jump out and jump back to the tackled titans cyno, where will they jump to? We need a gang there with dics and hics
#4 We need enough dps onfield quickly before a response fleet can form, warp to engagement and burn through drags
#5 Need exit cyno for dreads and extraction plan for subcaps
tl;dr you flubbed it keep trying though Well honestly, the dreads were in siege and by the time they came out of it they were bubbled. Though some dreads at the edge did get away (the actually warped off, though - so either they had no exit cyno or were not at jump cap). There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
4
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 05:03:00 -
[121] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote: Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces Aparrantly a lot of people fail at reading. |
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus
68
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 05:06:00 -
[122] - Quote
Back before TiDi, everything I heard about nullsec made me think that many alliances had a standard operating procedure of: "If the node is running fine, we didn't bring enough ships". Every time CCP did something to improve performance, it worked for a short while. Then fleet numbers increased until problems happened again.
I spent my time in faction warfare. Lowsec had, and still has, a reputation for running on the worst hardware CCP has. Even worse, without reinforcement timers, there was no way to predict which system a large battle would happen in. Battles with less than 100 pilots in them would cause problems regularly. The winner in a fleet engagement was usually determined by who got hit worst by the node failing.
My first taste of FCing happened when the experienced FC realized that his overview was full of enemies that were no longer present. He decided that a completely inexperienced FC (me) was a better choice because, while I had no clue what I was doing, I still knew which enemies were still there to shoot at.
Sure, TiDi has its problems. But it is much better than the only alternative: The server tries to run at full speed and fails.
Alavaria Fera wrote:No, because EVE doesn't use parallel processing, you can't have multiple servers running the same thing. During 6VDT, the Jita node was not doing anything but running 6VDT, and that's the best hardware they have. It seems a bit odd that CCP only has one Jita quality node. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5713
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 05:13:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
782
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 05:55:00 -
[124] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
Solution: Kill Titan with 45 dudes - no TiDi
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
|
Apocryphal Noise
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
73
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 06:53:00 -
[125] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:It seems a bit odd that CCP only has one Jita quality node.
Not really, it's a multi-million dollar piece of equipment and CCP doesn't have a whole lot of money to throw around. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3927
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:02:00 -
[126] - Quote
Apocryphal Noise wrote:Hesod Adee wrote:It seems a bit odd that CCP only has one Jita quality node. Not really, it's a multi-million dollar piece of equipment and CCP doesn't have a whole lot of money to throw around. We'll just have to borrow it everytime nullsec has a major fight. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Apocryphal Noise
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
74
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:11:00 -
[127] - Quote
Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. |
Arduemont
The Asteroid Solution
1650
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:21:00 -
[128] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: >Implying that there isnt already massive amounts of lag in large fleet battles *COUGH*6VDT*COUGH* pls.
Because CCP shouldn't have any lag in the largest MMO battle to ever occur in the history of time. Amirite?! "In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5713
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:44:00 -
[129] - Quote
Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Alice Saki
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
76522
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:47:00 -
[130] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side.
And We'll get kicked too the side when off grid boosting goes away.... At the Moment our Only defense against a Bigger Fleet
|
|
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus
68
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:52:00 -
[131] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side.
And We'll get kicked too the side when off grid boosting goes away.... At the Moment our Only defense against a Bigger Fleet How is off grid boosting an advantage to the little guys when the big fleets can also use it ? |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3780
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 07:57:00 -
[132] - Quote
Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python magical space pixie code, there's going to be lag.
FYP This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Solstice Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
3405
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 08:16:00 -
[133] - Quote
Why can't you people think things through before you impulsively create threads that make you look like dumb people? :( |
Sarah McKnobbo
Omamori Himari Pandora Hearts
9
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 08:30:00 -
[134] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Kitty Baugh wrote: Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Umm CFC lost a titan the other day and TiDi worked against them, slowing their logging, forming and reacting so, no, not really. And the failed titan gank was more to do with the fact it was in a staging system, allowing quick response time for the rescuers. Stop talking about last nights failed titan gank please my original post was an example of how Tidi works against smaller forces Aparrantly a lot of people fail at reading.
Huh? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11044
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 09:44:00 -
[135] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
What you're complaining about isn't TiDi but server overloading (colloquially known as "lag")
TiDi is a way of managing and mitgating the effects of that overloading. It gives no particular advantage to larger or smaller sides. Complaining that TiDi causes the problems you refer to is like complaining that it always seems to be raining when you stand under an umbrella.
1 Kings 12:11
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7430
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 09:56:00 -
[136] - Quote
Alice Saki wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side.
And We'll get kicked too the side when off grid boosting goes away.... At the Moment our Only defense against a Bigger Fleet
Because big fleets dont also use off grid boosters |
The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 10:27:00 -
[137] - Quote
OP: "TiDi makes fights bigger by allowing more time to ping up."
Sounds pretty good :) |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
729
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 10:33:00 -
[138] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online
me personally would not get online to rescue some stupid titan. Would you?
Kitty Baugh wrote: -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
monumental victory = having spy (who allowed enemies into the POS shield), having stupid titan pilot (who didn't logoff of jump in time), having lazy and/or stupid enemies (who cannot defend their titan)?
I thought "monumental victory" has slightly different meaning
|
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 10:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag.
Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power. |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
21
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 10:51:00 -
[140] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Trin Javidan wrote:This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned. Yeah, because BoB wasn't totally defeated by an upstart coalition with more guts than them, and almost no other advantage... (despite the wide rumor that BoB had devhaxx)
Loook mummy!! A dumm monkey responding who doesnt know were hes talking about... hahaha (me & mommy laughs)
Before you say something,... make sure you know where you talk about...
I guess CCP favours jung kiddies with daddies creditcards than older mature more loyal players. Cant really blame them $$$-wise. |
|
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1243
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 10:59:00 -
[141] - Quote
one thing TiDi does amplify the suckyness of..
ECM !
Because of tidi Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
15832
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 11:03:00 -
[142] - Quote
Medarr wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power. GǪand you'll still have lag. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
104
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 11:35:00 -
[143] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it.
That's not an example of TiDi working against either side. Since bother are under the affects of TiDi, there is no advantage, and the more prepared, aggressive side wins the engagement.
The reason that TiDi favors the party that is reacting is that they are more likely to have players incoming from systems that are not affected by TiDi. Those incoming players are acting 10 times faster than the players at the point of engagement.
It really becomes apparent when you extend the process. Let's say TiDi = 1% or even 0.00001%. With time almost at a stand-still for the attackers, the group with more players and resources to leverage overall has all the time they need to bring in enough logistics, firepower, ewar, etc. to completely turn the tide of the engagement. It is only "fair" when, as you point out in your example, all participants, direct, indirect, current, and future, are affected by TiDi in the same way. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
688
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 11:35:00 -
[144] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Trin Javidan wrote:This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned. Yeah, because BoB wasn't totally defeated by an upstart coalition with more guts than them, and almost no other advantage... (despite the wide rumor that BoB had devhaxx) Loook mummy!! A dumm monkey responding who doesnt know were hes talking about... hahaha (me & mommy laughs) Before you say something,... make sure you know where you talk about... I guess CCP favours jung kiddies with daddies creditcards than older mature more loyal players. Cant really blame them $$$-wise.
Umm... is there actually a point in there, or were you just babbling again?
Basically, you're talking out your ass. If you'd care to stop making a fool of yourself, extract your head out of your fourth point of contact and do it.
But your basic point is pure nonsense. If even anything you said in the post I quoted above was true, BoB would still have a stranglehold on much of nullsec. They don't(in fact they were destroyed years ago). Thus, you are wrong.
Care to try again? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
740
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 11:46:00 -
[145] - Quote
Maybe people should just expect systems to enter TiDi and plan accordingly, there is no prize for second place and forum whining is not going to change anything. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
Djana Libra
DAB Black Legion.
262
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 12:08:00 -
[146] - Quote
Yeah well that was the aftermath of that horrible expansion called dominion which introduced 4 times as much lag as it had.
TiDi is better than lag even though it needs some work imho. |
Chaos Hellbreth
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 14:10:00 -
[147] - Quote
I was thinking about this last night (actually, I had a dream about it). TiDi actually gives the smaller side a chance to bring balanced numbers to the fight as well. While the system that the titan is in might be dilated to hell and back again, the rest of the region isn't, giving the smaller side a chance to call for backup from surrounding systems where (if the corp/alliance is at all decently organized) they can assemble one system over and then jump/bridge in to support the titan.
The issue with TiDi I think is the point at which it "kicks in". Let me say that I am not a computer engineer so I don't know how feasible this is, but if they could set it up so that the load time to enter a system (either by jumping into the system or bridging in) was not effected by dilation (which is basically artificially induced lag so that everyone is operating at the same level, or at least that is the intent though it doesn't seem to actually work all that well IMO) that would help balance the numbers issue, though not necessarily the effectiveness of one side relative the other.
What I think should be done, personally, (and again, I don't know how feasible this is), is for TiDi to be a region-wide "resource redistribution". Basically if system x of region y has 4000 people in it, all the other systems in the region dilate (in an inverse relationship to how many people are in the system, so a system with 0-5 players in it will dilate to a greater extent than a neighboring system with 100 people in it) in order for the server to allocate additional computing power to system x. System x might still dilate, but instead of dilating to 10%, maybe it would only dilate to say 50%, where the game is at least still reasonably playable and enjoyable. This also has various "meta-benefits", in that it allows one side to still reap the benefits of "surprise" (instead, under the current TiDi system, those advantages are lost because while only 1 minute might pass by in a dilated system, 30 minutes would go by in the neighboring systems giving the side that was taken by surprise ample time to bring in a fleet of reinforcements and neuter the effects of being caught with your pants down) because not only will the dilation not be quite as severe (hopefully) but the entire region will be, in effect, "locked down" making travel and thus reinforcement difficult, if not impossible. This shouldn't be an issue to two fleets in a pitched battle where both sides know whats coming, since the systems in which the two sides form up in shouldn't be hit by the dilation quite as hard and making the 1-2 jumps to the battlezone wouldn't be as severe as traveling from the other end of a region or even a neighboring region.
My .02 ISK anyway. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
104
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 14:52:00 -
[148] - Quote
Chaos Hellbreth wrote:super TiDi! Don't lag everyone in 6VDT-H. Lag EVERYONE! That's an interesting idea. I have a feeling someone at CCP thought of it already, though, and ruled it out because it would have "inconvenienced" people outside of the battles that cause TiDi to be a necessity. |
Velicitia
Aliastra
1577
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 16:02:00 -
[149] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side. EVE is really harsh. If you are ~elite pvp~ enough though then maybe you too can form an elite cadre, a true band of brothers that can
meh, nobody really liked BOB anyway... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3928
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 16:07:00 -
[150] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:Not sure if you're aware, but little in EVE favors the smaller side. EVE is really harsh. If you are ~elite pvp~ enough though then maybe you too can form an elite cadre, a true band of brothers that can meh, nobody really liked BOB anyway... What about N3, a coalition that exists to kill the CFC? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
1247
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 16:09:00 -
[151] - Quote
Surely TiDi only exists till CCP work out how to reinforce nodes willy nilly :D
In X years i hope TiDi is a thing of the past when we all have door to door fiber, servers more powerful than the intire current cluster etc and so forth :) Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
|
Velicitia
Aliastra
1578
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 16:55:00 -
[152] - Quote
we'll still find a way to kill the cluster One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3785
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 18:50:00 -
[153] - Quote
Medarr wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power.
You can only run one system on a CPU because the order that the computations is done matters and the overhead from talking to other CPUs, waiting around for the results, and putting those results in the right order would negate any gains.
It has nothing to do with Python and everything to do with running a complex real-time simulation. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Verunae Caseti
Viziam Amarr Empire
177
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 19:19:00 -
[154] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: You can only run one system on a CPU because the order that the computations is done matters and the overhead from talking to other CPUs, waiting around for the results, and putting those results in the right order would negate any gains.
It has nothing to do with Python and everything to do with running a complex real-time simulation.
Yeah, which is why multicore processors are so much slower than single cores, right?
I mean, seriously? What motivates people to post with authority on subjects about which they are so clearly uneducated?
"Waiting around for the results" (something that takes nanoseconds) negates the benefit of billions of additional cycles every second?
OP wrote:Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Also giving the smaller side 10x the time to get people online and even up the odds, or gain the advantage. So it benefits both sides equally.
/thread |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3785
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 19:36:00 -
[155] - Quote
Verunae Caseti wrote:Yeah, which is why multicore processors are so much slower than single cores, right?
For this type of application, where order and timing are critical, multicore processors only have an advantage when running multiple applications (i.e. a 2 core processor can run 2 systems almost as well as a 1 core can run 1). It's primarily the overhead in keeping putting the results in the right order that negates the advantage.
Different computational problems benefit from different architectures differently. General home computing benefits massively from multiple cores. Generally speaking, Simulations like an EVE node don't. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
595
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 19:56:00 -
[156] - Quote
Verunae Caseti wrote:
"Waiting around for the results" (something that takes nanoseconds) negates the benefit of billions of additional cycles every second?
Yes because all those cycle go to waste because they need data coming of the preceding function being executed on the other core. An EVE node would probably benefit much more from a clock speed increase to memory and CPU than it would from adding additionnal CPU.
More CPU would still ahve somebenefit at soem point tho. If CCP was able to have a dedicated core + some addressed memory for the execution of that core only as a single node, it would potentially be able to run more node on thier own dedicated CPU thus reducing the spread of TiDi when it hit a system that was not reinforced. The problem is that cost money and the benefit is small. Random large battle don't happen that often. We don't have Asakai happening every week even so building your system to sustain such things is mostly seen as a waste of ressources. |
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3331
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:01:00 -
[157] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down
Welcome to the real world. [url]http://i.imgur.com/InJla.gif[/url] |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:05:00 -
[158] - Quote
Verunae Caseti wrote:RubyPorto wrote: You can only run one system on a CPU because the order that the computations is done matters and the overhead from talking to other CPUs, waiting around for the results, and putting those results in the right order would negate any gains.
It has nothing to do with Python and everything to do with running a complex real-time simulation.
Yeah, which is why multicore processors are so much slower than single cores, right? I mean, seriously? What motivates people to post with authority on subjects about which they are so clearly uneducated? "Waiting around for the results" (something that takes nanoseconds) negates the benefit of billions of additional cycles every second? OP wrote:Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online. Also giving the smaller side 10x the time to get people online and even up the odds, or gain the advantage. So it benefits both sides equally. /thread
Until you hit server cap that is. If you can not get more than 2,000 pilots into a system because a system with a 200 force got hotdropped and escalated into server cap situation, it isn't going to matter.
You can have 5,000 pilots at your disposal, or be ready to be available in an hour, and it won't make a lick of difference when they cannot enter the system. TiDi at that point definitely helps the larger force due to sheer brute strength. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
595
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:06:00 -
[159] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote: >Implying that the smaller side shouldnt win if they almost flawlessly execute something only to be shot down
pls.
They almost won for having executed almost flawlessly. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
595
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:07:00 -
[160] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Verunae Caseti wrote:RubyPorto wrote: You can only run one system on a CPU because the order that the computations is done matters and the overhead from talking to other CPUs, waiting around for the results, and putting those results in the right order would negate any gains.
It has nothing to do with Python and everything to do with running a complex real-time simulation.
Yeah, which is why multicore processors are so much slower than single cores, right? I mean, seriously? What motivates people to post with authority on subjects about which they are so clearly uneducated? "Waiting around for the results" (something that takes nanoseconds) negates the benefit of billions of additional cycles every second? OP wrote:Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online. Also giving the smaller side 10x the time to get people online and even up the odds, or gain the advantage. So it benefits both sides equally. /thread Until you hit server cap that is. If you can not get more than 2,000 pilots into a system because a system with a 200 force got hotdropped and escalated into server cap situation, it isn't going to matter. You can have 5,000 pilots at your disposal, or be ready to be available in an hour, and it won't make a lick of difference when they cannot enter the system. TiDi at that point definitely helps the larger force due to sheer brute strength.
Since everybody know those system will choke, just for up earlyer and jump in. Just like the CFC did in 6VDT. Hours ahead of the timer IIRC. |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:07:00 -
[161] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Verunae Caseti wrote:
"Waiting around for the results" (something that takes nanoseconds) negates the benefit of billions of additional cycles every second?
Yes because all those cycle go to waste because they need data coming of the preceding function being executed on the other core. An EVE node would probably benefit much more from a clock speed increase to memory and CPU than it would from adding additionnal CPU. More CPU would still ahve somebenefit at soem point tho. If CCP was able to have a dedicated core + some addressed memory for the execution of that core only as a single node, it would potentially be able to run more node on thier own dedicated CPU thus reducing the spread of TiDi when it hit a system that was not reinforced. The problem is that cost money and the benefit is small. Random large battle don't happen that often. We don't have Asakai happening every week even so building your system to sustain such things is mostly seen as a waste of ressources.
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:09:00 -
[162] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Verunae Caseti wrote:RubyPorto wrote: You can only run one system on a CPU because the order that the computations is done matters and the overhead from talking to other CPUs, waiting around for the results, and putting those results in the right order would negate any gains.
It has nothing to do with Python and everything to do with running a complex real-time simulation.
Yeah, which is why multicore processors are so much slower than single cores, right? I mean, seriously? What motivates people to post with authority on subjects about which they are so clearly uneducated? "Waiting around for the results" (something that takes nanoseconds) negates the benefit of billions of additional cycles every second? OP wrote:Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online. Also giving the smaller side 10x the time to get people online and even up the odds, or gain the advantage. So it benefits both sides equally. /thread Until you hit server cap that is. If you can not get more than 2,000 pilots into a system because a system with a 200 force got hotdropped and escalated into server cap situation, it isn't going to matter. You can have 5,000 pilots at your disposal, or be ready to be available in an hour, and it won't make a lick of difference when they cannot enter the system. TiDi at that point definitely helps the larger force due to sheer brute strength. Since everybody know those system will choke, just for up earlyer and jump in. Just like the CFC did in 6VDT. Hours ahead of the timer IIRC.
Timers don't get affected by TiDi which is a fun dynamic. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
595
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:13:00 -
[163] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal?
Take the risk of engaging or don't take it. TiDi or not, the choice is there. It's a variable that has to be taken into account pretty much anytime caps are fielded not it seems because escalation can come out of nowhere really fast. If you don't risk it and stand down, you will enver get ****** over by TiDi. If you engage, you might get beaten by a group than handle the new variable better than you do. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
595
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:16:00 -
[164] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:
Timers don't get affected by TiDi which is a fun dynamic.
Wich is also already well known. TEST should of formed more ahead of time if they wanted to be sure they would all be in the system for the fight. Something wich the CFC actaully did. Maybe TEST could not muster it's force in time but thats not TiDi's fault nor anyone else but TEST itself. If they did, we might be seeing CFC pilots bitching about how TiDi blocked them from entering but I would have the same point, if you know there will be TiDi, plan for it. |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:21:00 -
[165] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal?
Take the risk of engaging or don't take it. TiDi or not, the choice is there. It's a variable that has to be taken into account pretty much anytime caps are fielded not it seems because escalation can come out of nowhere really fast. If you don't risk it and stand down, you will enver get ****** over by TiDi. If you engage, you might get beaten by a group than handle the new variable better than you do.
What I mean is... Asakai would most likely happen every week if Tidi wasn't so prevalent.
I mean, we've been having escalations and caps and supers and such every day.
If tidi was not such a scary beast I'm sure we'd have much larger fights more often to push that envelope. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
595
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:24:00 -
[166] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal?
Take the risk of engaging or don't take it. TiDi or not, the choice is there. It's a variable that has to be taken into account pretty much anytime caps are fielded not it seems because escalation can come out of nowhere really fast. If you don't risk it and stand down, you will enver get ****** over by TiDi. If you engage, you might get beaten by a group than handle the new variable better than you do. What I mean is... Asakai would most likely happen every week if Tidi wasn't so prevalent. I mean, we've been having escalations and caps and supers and such every day. If tidi was not such a scary beast I'm sure we'd have much larger fights more often to push that envelope.
No because no how much people want to belive 0.0 alliance are THAT spacerich, they can't replace blown-up cap/supercap at that rate. There would also be less time for the escalation to happen because you have to form up and setup a cyno chain. That still takes time even if the trapped titan is under TiDi. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
383
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:33:00 -
[167] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal?
Take the risk of engaging or don't take it. TiDi or not, the choice is there. It's a variable that has to be taken into account pretty much anytime caps are fielded not it seems because escalation can come out of nowhere really fast. If you don't risk it and stand down, you will enver get ****** over by TiDi. If you engage, you might get beaten by a group than handle the new variable better than you do. What I mean is... Asakai would most likely happen every week if Tidi wasn't so prevalent. I mean, we've been having escalations and caps and supers and such every day. If tidi was not such a scary beast I'm sure we'd have much larger fights more often to push that envelope.
Asakai wouldn't have happened at all. It would have been over before the test of new Eden could have gotten there.
Or there node would have crashed..
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:36:00 -
[168] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal?
Take the risk of engaging or don't take it. TiDi or not, the choice is there. It's a variable that has to be taken into account pretty much anytime caps are fielded not it seems because escalation can come out of nowhere really fast. If you don't risk it and stand down, you will enver get ****** over by TiDi. If you engage, you might get beaten by a group than handle the new variable better than you do. What I mean is... Asakai would most likely happen every week if Tidi wasn't so prevalent. I mean, we've been having escalations and caps and supers and such every day. If tidi was not such a scary beast I'm sure we'd have much larger fights more often to push that envelope. No because no how much people want to belive 0.0 alliance are THAT spacerich, they can't replace blown-up cap/supercap at that rate. There would also be less time for the escalation to happen because you have to form up and setup a cyno chain. That still takes time even if the trapped titan is under TiDi.
Doesn't always have to be titans, and you'd be surprised how often dreads and other caps get fielded on pos grinds that go awry =P (or failed cap hotdrops). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 20:43:00 -
[169] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
What would be your opinion on tidi having an impact on the decision to engage in those large fights that the outcome is less insured than normal?
Take the risk of engaging or don't take it. TiDi or not, the choice is there. It's a variable that has to be taken into account pretty much anytime caps are fielded not it seems because escalation can come out of nowhere really fast. If you don't risk it and stand down, you will enver get ****** over by TiDi. If you engage, you might get beaten by a group than handle the new variable better than you do. What I mean is... Asakai would most likely happen every week if Tidi wasn't so prevalent. I mean, we've been having escalations and caps and supers and such every day. If tidi was not such a scary beast I'm sure we'd have much larger fights more often to push that envelope. Asakai wouldn't have happened at all. It would have been over before the test of new Eden could have gotten there. Or there node would have crashed..
That's a lot of faith you're putting in a certain titan pilot. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8520
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 21:13:00 -
[170] - Quote
excellent bit of fiction there
tidi isn't the reason you failed to gank that titan though Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 21:56:00 -
[171] - Quote
Onictus wrote:
Asakai wouldn't have happened at all. It would have been over before the test of new Eden could have gotten there.
Or there node would have crashed..
Think of it this way... you have X amount of capitals, supers, titans, etc and you know you do not want to structure grind, you know you also do not want to commit that behemoth because it would take 20 minutes to get the ship to even do anything, let alone get a result.
So, take the tidi meta out of the picture, take sov grinding out of the picture (since you don't want to structure grind anyways...) what else would you want to use the ship for? Ratting? Oh joy there.
Now, pretend for a moment tidi was not an element... would you want to escalate into a super fight? "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
383
|
Posted - 2013.07.31 23:12:00 -
[172] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Onictus wrote:
Asakai wouldn't have happened at all. It would have been over before the test of new Eden could have gotten there.
Or there node would have crashed..
Think of it this way... you have X amount of capitals, supers, titans, etc and you know you do not want to structure grind, you know you also do not want to commit that behemoth because it would take 20 minutes to get the ship to even do anything, let alone get a result. So, take the tidi meta out of the picture, take sov grinding out of the picture (since you don't want to structure grind anyways...) what else would you want to use the ship for? Ratting? Oh joy there. Now, pretend for a moment tidi was not an element... would you want to escalate into a super fight?
What are you blabbering about.
TiDi enable Asakia to happen. Remember that was supposed to be a hot drop, on an unreinforced node. It would have come down to the who got in first. Likely the CFC savior fleet would have crashed the node, or Boat would have been dead before they could have gotten there.
You DAMN sure wouldn't have had people making it from scalding pass on the complete opposite end of the map making it there in time. That is for certain. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3934
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 00:02:00 -
[173] - Quote
Nerf power projection There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 00:06:00 -
[174] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf power projection
That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!! |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3934
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 00:08:00 -
[175] - Quote
Nerf having players help one another. Or having a group of players helping one another that is greater than another group of players helping one another. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5714
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 00:16:00 -
[176] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it. That's not an example of TiDi working against either side. Since bother are under the affects of TiDi, there is no advantage, and the more prepared, aggressive side wins the engagement. No. Try reading it again.
-áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 00:29:00 -
[177] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf having players help one another. Or having a group of players helping one another that is greater than another group of players helping one another.
Player interaction beside shooting each toher should be a abnnable offense. So is just staring at each others. I eman if you see each toehr, why aren't you shooting? You are obviously abusing the game mecaninc of not shooting automatically to help him out not get killed. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8521
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:05:00 -
[178] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf power projection That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!!
yeah "undock, warp to fleet member" was how our OP power projection ability saved the day Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:07:00 -
[179] - Quote
Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf power projection That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!! yeah "undock, warp to fleet member" was how our OP power projection ability saved the day
Wasn't the station bubbled so you jumped out of system and then abck in? At least I read something about this maneuver being done. Could be a lot of spin... |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5714
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:11:00 -
[180] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf power projection That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!! yeah "undock, warp to fleet member" was how our OP power projection ability saved the day Wasn't the station bubbled so you jumped out of system and then abck in? Might want to think a bit more about what you just said. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:15:00 -
[181] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Nerf power projection That would technically make more sense but at the end of the day, it's much more damaging to the small entity who can't have people everywhere as it is to the large one who can anyway. But people don't see it that way. They see the CFC saving a tital by using power projection and all go OOOPPP!!!!!!!! yeah "undock, warp to fleet member" was how our OP power projection ability saved the day Wasn't the station bubbled so you jumped out of system and then abck in? Might want to think a bit more about what you just said.
From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
123
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:22:00 -
[182] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
Its not TiDi that you should worry. Its better than having a system hard cap. If the system had a hard cap then who ever gets the most in the system before the limit is meet would likely win the fight.
|
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
123
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:33:00 -
[183] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:
Or TiDi the entire game when it happens.
If this is implemented, remember you said this. Will be funny when you cry on the forums because your 1v1 in Scalding Pass got suddenly TiDi'd to hell because of a lovers quarrel in Fountain.
This has happened before. Random systems have seen TiDi pop in and out because of a fight somewhere in NULL. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8521
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 01:46:00 -
[184] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in.
They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:02:00 -
[185] - Quote
Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out
I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3786
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:44:00 -
[186] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place.
You're doing it all wrong, smalls. This is the point at which you're meant to double down and insist that Capitals can jump right out of bubbles and call for a jump drive nerf.
This is GD. We have standards. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
598
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:52:00 -
[187] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:From the report on TMC :
Rather than having to clear bubbles and warp in 10% tidi, the CFC capital fleet chose to jump out of system, then jump to ZungenGÇÖs cyno, landing them directly on top of the NCdot fleet. In the non-tidi system, the caps calmly refit for cap and were able to reach jump cap while only a handful of game-seconds had passed in 4-EP.
I might understand it wrong but to me, this mean they jumped out of system then jumpad back in. They jumped out and back in because a 10% tidi warp in a capital takes forever, not because of bubbles. If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out I didn't know they also prevented jumping. I always learn in this place. You're doing it all wrong, smalls. This is the point at which you're meant to double down and insist that Capitals can jump right out of bubbles and call for a jump drive nerf. This is GD. We have standards.
I sent money to some people after they made me learn something in here. I'm not your average GD poster. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5714
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 02:59:00 -
[188] - Quote
Andski wrote:If the station was bubbled they wouldn't have been able to jump out Yeah, that was my original point. It sounded like FV was saying that they jumped out because the bubbles were preventing them from warping. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3935
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 04:01:00 -
[189] - Quote
Well apparently the enemy bubbled in the wrong place or something like that. By the time they had gotten bubbles on the undock properly it was too late. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1097
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 06:09:00 -
[190] - Quote
TiDi allows for massive fights, which make headlines, which bring lots of new blood into the game. Might want to get used to it cause from a business standpoint, it's brilliant. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
|
Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
72
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 06:53:00 -
[191] - Quote
To be fair, TiDi tends to work both ways. Sometimes the ganking force can destroy its target before its friends can form up in heavy tidi, sometimes they get slowed down and lose it.
Either way, it makes big battles possible and is pretty cool - though really in 6VDT I think it was as tidi as it would ever get. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet? |
Alfie Duckling
Anquer Quare Easily Excited
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 08:46:00 -
[192] - Quote
Trii Seo wrote:To be fair, TiDi tends to work both ways. Sometimes the ganking force can destroy its target before its friends can form up in heavy tidi, sometimes they get slowed down and lose it.
Either way, it makes big battles possible and is pretty cool - though really in 6VDT I think it was as tidi as it would ever get.
This.
I mean really, TiDi is by far the lesser of two evils. |
Medarr
ZeroSec
69
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 10:21:00 -
[193] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Medarr wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power. GǪand you'll still have lag.
elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
383
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 11:10:00 -
[194] - Quote
Medarr wrote:Tippia wrote:Medarr wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Apocryphal Noise wrote:Put it this way, until they rewrite every line of code in something other than python, there's going to be lag. It doesn't matter what language it's written in. You could write the whole thing in assembly, it'll still lag. Uhm... No. Due to python they can only run one system on a CPU if you can run one system on _All_ CPUs it would have plenty of power. GǪand you'll still have lag. elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?
HS22 blades cap out around 650Ghz/s they advertise 1000gigE but the interface is a PCI daughter board and there its only so much the Northridge can take.
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3787
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 11:36:00 -
[195] - Quote
Medarr wrote:elaborate please. As i understand it eve peers with 3 tier 3 providers giving them ampel bandwidth to the cluster, their internal network uses infiniband ect. Is there a bottleneck somewhere that im missing or are you refering to the clients lagging due to massive amounts of asset rendering?
If the server can handle 600 people without lagging out, each side will bring 600. Total of 1,200. If the server can handle 2000 people without TiDi, each side will bring 2001. Total of 4,002. If the server can handle 4000 people without TiDi, each side will bring 4001. Total of 8,002. If the server can handle 20,000 people without TiDi, each side will (eventually) bring 20,001. Total of 40,002.
This has been the trend since... well, forever. There were actually tactics and fleet setups designed around the horrible nature of pre-tidi lag (ungroup guns, Alpha>Else (since everything effectively fires at the same rate), pack enough people in system first so you get to be the one shooting black-screened turkeys, etc), but fleets kept bringing more people because outnumbering your opponent is always advantageous if it's possible. TiDi is a graceful way to handle this trend.
External Bandwidth isn't the issue, and the problem with just throwing processing power at the problem is that the bottleneck is putting everything in the right order which, essentially, has to be single threaded by its nature.
There's a reason why complex simulations on supercomputers run hilariously slowly (a certain protein folding supercomputer node (of 512 cores) can run 17,000 nanoseconds of a 24,000 atom simulation in a full day**)*, and that's because getting the order right is critical. EVE's 1 Hz simulation granularity and much simpler rules allow it to run much faster than that (thankfully) but a giant fight (where the number of particles to track probably approaches that 24,000 number) is still a remarkably complex simulation, and it's attempting to do this simulation in real time with random inputs coming in constantly from each particle.
*this is an incredibly simplistic comparison **That's 60,000 days to complete 1 second of simulation*** ***That's 165 years. Had this computer been around since the Mexican-American War, it would just now have completed 1 second of simulation.**** ****Luckily, proteins fold absurdly quickly, so this isn't a big deal***** *****footnote This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 13:12:00 -
[196] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not [causing 10% TiDi] in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it.
It's hard to imagine enough force to down a titan that quickly that doesn't cause some TiDi. It's also hard to imagine that the defenders of the titan would all log into the same system simultaneously and just sit around waiting while TiDi was rising and their titan was dying. I'd think they would start getting carrier groups into the non-TiDi engagement system to begin landing reps on their titan and to start pushing the TiDi meter in the engagement system towards that 10% mark.
Even in the scenario where there is no TiDi in the engagement system and massive TiDi in the defender's staging system, all that has to be done is to fleet the appropriate people in the staging system and get cyno's lit in the engagement system. If your titan dies before you can even do that, then odds are that TiDi wasn't the cause of your loss so much as the efficiency of the opposing force. The titan is SUPPOSED to die in that scenario.
The term is "hit-and-run". It's not "hit-and-stand-your-ground-while-the-opposition-musters-an-appropriately-sized-response-force", but that is effectively what TiDi makes a strike force do, stand their ground and face the response.
Is TiDi good? Is it necessary? Is it lag? I don't know, probably yes to all three. But when it comes to the question of "Is it fair?", the answer is pretty clear. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3943
|
Posted - 2013.08.01 13:31:00 -
[197] - Quote
Surprise, if there's more fights, there's more unfair fights. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Kitty Baugh
Pelican. Cult of War
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 04:11:00 -
[198] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Surprise, if there's more fights, there's more unfair fights. Not rly. |
Indica Dominant
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 09:43:00 -
[199] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
you have 2 options for large fleet fights:
option 1: TIDI option 2: the game stops working the fighting starts with more than a few hundred people involved.
|
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 15:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
Indica Dominant wrote:you have 2 options for large fleet fights: option 1: TIDI option 2: the game stops working the fighting starts with more than a few hundred people involved.
We only have 1 of those options, TiDi. And, TiDi is just another way of saying "the system by which the server handles lag". The server bends so that it doesn't break, but isn't it fair to wonder, after all that bending, whether or not the server hasn't just broken in a different way, as bent as it is?
Underneath that, of course, is the idea that large fleet fights are somehow necessary at all, which is itself . . . questionable.
Maybe we might wonder what the effect of imposing different limitations on players might be. For instance, instead of only allowing them to execute X number of commands per second, what would happen if there was just a hard (or soft) cap on the number of people allowed in a system? That would fix the problem, too. What would happen if the amount of HP for these structures was reduced, so that you didn't need 2000 players to take them down? What would happen if structures just died after you shot them enough, instead of becoming invulnerable and necessitating a second, pre-scheduled confrontation? What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid?
In no way is it a dilemma between complete failure of the system and TiDi; I think. Only CCP knows for certain, and with their special insight, they have chosen the current "system by which the server handles lag a.k.a. TiDi".
What's funny is that if players actually had a choice, I bet some of them would prefer that the server failed entirely rather than TiDi. |
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
392
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:02:00 -
[201] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tidi works against the larger side too.
- Their titan gets tackled - Pings go out - They all start undocking from the same station causing 10% tidi in their system but not [causing 10% TiDi] in the system where the titan is being killed - Titan is killed before anyone is able to load grid after undocking, much less join fleet and travel to where it is and save it. It's hard to imagine enough force to down a titan that quickly that doesn't cause some TiDi. It's also hard to imagine that the defenders of the titan would all log into the same system simultaneously and just sit around waiting while TiDi was rising and their titan was dying. I'd think they would start getting carrier groups into the non-TiDi engagement system to begin landing reps on their titan and to start pushing the TiDi meter in the engagement system towards that 10% mark. Even in the scenario where there is no TiDi in the engagement system and massive TiDi in the defender's staging system, all that has to be done is to fleet the appropriate people in the staging system and get cyno's lit in the engagement system. If your titan dies before you can even do that, then odds are that TiDi wasn't the cause of your loss so much as the efficiency of the opposing force. The titan is SUPPOSED to die in that scenario. The term is "hit-and-run". It's not "hit-and-stand-your-ground-while-the-opposition-musters-an-appropriately-sized-response-force", but that is effectively what TiDi makes a strike force do, stand their ground and face the response. Is TiDi good? Is it necessary? Is it lag? I don't know, probably yes to all three. But when it comes to the question of "Is it fair?", the answer is pretty clear.
Funny we lost a Titan to exactly that.
100 ships hitting a system will kick TiDi to 80% but only for a minute until the server catches up with building all of the characters and ships. That will melt a titan fast enough that mustering a savior fleet is going to be a near thing, Particularly when half of those ships are dreads. |
Mamucha
Rookie Empire Citizens Rookie Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:24:00 -
[202] - Quote
Clearly Op has newer been in big battle in time before TIDI. Otherwise he would not claim it be gambrakeing. Old mechanics massively favored the side that was allready in system when nodes handling barrier was reached..
Not saying TIDI is perfect, but its much better then what we had before. We are recruiting, see: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=196504&find=unread |
Gorishimo Watia
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
10
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 16:27:00 -
[203] - Quote
Kitty Baugh wrote:That's right, I said it. I'll keep it pretty short:
Time dilation is gamebreaking for the smaller side, simply because it gives the bigger side 10x the time to ping and get people online.
Example: -Fleet of 250 bumps titan out of POS -Begins killing Titan, gets it to half armour before 100 of the enemy undock and warp to them -System gets tidi'd to **** -Before the fleet of 250 can finish killing the titan (Enemy fleet has no serious RR), Tidi goes to insane amounts -Before the enemy titan or enemy fleet can even be further dented because of how slow it is, enemy sends a ping out and gets hundreds more people online -More Tidi allows more people to get online -The people who are much smaller, but would've gotten a monumental victory then lose because Tidi gave their opponents much more time to get online, get organized and get into the fight
Inb4hisecpropvpersjumponthisthread
so why dont you get to work and think of a different solution. just saying that something is broken and it sucks but having no answer to the problem is pointless and you suck :) |
Aiwha
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
536
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 17:31:00 -
[204] - Quote
I was at the titan fight. Tidi was only an issue because we were all in the same system. If we had been even 1 system over, that titan would have died in a fire because the CFC would have tidied themselves to hell and back forming up.
FC's knew that going in, but titan fights are always a good time. We're winning the war if it says so on CAOD! -á
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7477
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 17:38:00 -
[205] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:I was at the titan fight. Tidi was only an issue because we were all in the same system. If we had been even 1 system over, that titan would have died in a fire because the CFC would have tidied themselves to hell and back forming up.
FC's knew that going in, but titan fights are always a good time.
Death to all cap ships. |
BrundleMeth
Temporal Mechanics
13
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 19:53:00 -
[206] - Quote
Yeah I've heard it all before. EVE is the best, EVE is the only MMO like this, blah, blah. But IMO EVE is ahead of it's time. The fact is, there is no likely environment available today to allow us to play EVE the way it should be played. What do I mean? If I am in a battle with 4000 people I want to see the exact same response as I would in a 5 man battle. Clicking my mouse and waiting 20 minutes or 2 hours for a response is not playing, it's crap.
And please spare me the "But the CCP guys work so hard" speech. I am not in any way dissing the good guys at CCP. I'm thinking we need another generation or three of hardware to get us to the level we would all like I assume....
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:32:00 -
[207] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Maybe we might wonder what the effect of imposing different limitations on players might be. For instance, instead of only allowing them to execute X number of commands per second, what would happen if there was just a hard (or soft) cap on the number of people allowed in a system?
So... first group to the battlefield after DT wins because the other group isn't allowed into the system.
Quote:That would fix the problem, too. What would happen if the amount of HP for these structures was reduced, so that you didn't need 2000 players to take them down? What would happen if structures just died after you shot them enough, instead of becoming invulnerable and necessitating a second, pre-scheduled confrontation?
1)You don't need 2000 players to take down a sov structure. You need 2000 players to beat the 2000 players defending it. 2)Smaller groups without perfect timezone coverage lose. Getting notice, and being able to set timers allow people to effectively defend their assets. The largest groups would be the only ones with any chance to defend arbitrary systems with no notice.
Quote:What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid?
Fights turn into Smartbombs-n-Bombs Online. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:35:00 -
[208] - Quote
Isn't that why stealth bombers are doing so well in large fights as it is?
AoE prevails when you take "delay" into consideration. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3995
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:38:00 -
[209] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Quote:What would happen if something like "sensor interference" prevented players from locking onto anything if there was more than X number of players on grid? Fights turn into Smartbombs-n-Bombs Online. FoF missiles might be useful again. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
392
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 20:47:00 -
[210] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:Isn't that why stealth bombers are doing so well in large fights as it is?
AoE prevails when you take "delay" into consideration.
No they made it so that bombers don't decloak each other which makes them MUCH easier to fly. |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3996
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 23:31:00 -
[211] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:Isn't that why stealth bombers are doing so well in large fights as it is?
AoE prevails when you take "delay" into consideration. No they made it so that bombers don't decloak each other which makes them MUCH easier to fly. TiDi makes it easier to pop bombers, actually. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
597
|
Posted - 2013.08.03 23:44:00 -
[212] - Quote
- Is getting more people on your side a way to win? Yes. - Am I lost if I can't get any friends? Yes. - What can I do if don't have the social skills to get friends? Buy some.
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3997
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 00:42:00 -
[213] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:- Is getting more people on your side a way to win? Yes. - Am I lost if I can't get any friends? Yes. - What can I do if don't have the social skills to get friends? Buy some.
Who are you, Gevlon Goblin? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 02:07:00 -
[214] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:- Is getting more people on your side a way to win? Yes. - Am I lost if I can't get any friends? Yes. - What can I do if don't have the social skills to get friends? Buy some.
Yeah, because that's how you should pick a general or a CEO, by how friendly and sociable they are, by whether you would have a beer with them at the bar. Pfffft . . .
Do you really think Goonswarm wins this game so hard by being a bunch of happy-go-lucky uniters, self-sacrificers, and generally all around "good" guys? You've been meta-gamed.
Here's what general Eisenhower had to say about it: "This is a long tough road we have to travel. The men that can do things are going to be sought out just as surely as the sun rises in the morning. Fake reputations, habits of glib and clever speech, and glittering surface performance are going to be discovered."
The CFC and others don't succeed at this game because they have massive numbers. Brute force is just one of many viable tactics. They win because they put their egos aside and choose "men that can do things" over "people with social skills". Remember that. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 03:29:00 -
[215] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:So... first group to the battlefield after DT wins because the other group isn't allowed into the system.
The first group to the top of the hill wins the hill . . . if they can withstand the siege/diversionary attack/assault of the second group. Is that crazy?
Ruby Porto wrote:1)You don't need 2000 players to take down a sov structure. You need 2000 players to beat the 2000 players defending it. 2)Smaller groups . . . lose. Getting notice, and being able to set timers [hinders people from effectively attacking other peoples' assets]. The largest groups would be the only ones with any chance to defend arbitrary systems with no notice. [edited for clarity]
1)Same difference. Personally, I think 2000 players should pretty much kill anything in game in 1-shot. 2)With all things being equal, yes, smaller groups are probably going to lose, but how does making them wait a day and a half to lose fix that?
Ruby Porto wrote:Fights turn into Smartbombs-n-Bombs Online.
You say that like it's a bad thing. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3997
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 03:31:00 -
[216] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Do you really think Goonswarm wins this game so hard by being a bunch of happy-go-lucky uniters, self-sacrificers, and generally all around "good" guys? You've been meta-gamed. Uh, does anyone actually think that? We're total assholes to fight, how else can "no fun for the enemy" be interpreted? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 03:47:00 -
[217] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:The first group to the top of the hill wins the hill . . . if they can withstand the siege/diversionary attack/assault of the second group. Is that crazy?
Well, I mean, I guess it's a buff to the ANZACs, but . Your suggestion basically boils down to whomever can log the server-cap number of players into the system as soon as the servers come up wins the "fight". There is no siege/diversion, because the other side can't get in the system with a system cap.
And you don't seem to see the problem with that...
Quote:1)Same difference. Personally, I think 2000 players should pretty much kill anything in game in 1-shot. 2)With all things being equal, yes, smaller groups are probably going to lose, but how does making them wait a day and a half to lose fix that?
1)So 2000 players should be able to kill the enemy 2000 player fleet in one shot? How does that work? Fleets of 2000 aren't formed because they're worried about the structure (and a 2000 player fleet will demolish a structure fast), they form because of the 2000 player fleet that's expected to defend the structure. The EHP structure itself is irrelevant.
2)The hinderance of timers is a defense that small, or lopsided TZ groups can use to not get steamrolled at a time of day when they are unable to fight. Smaller groups may be unlikely to win with timers, but without them, they don't even get the opportunity to fight. Timers help everyone defend their space and stuff, but they help smaller groups far more. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 05:21:00 -
[218] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:a.Your suggestion basically boils down to whomever can log the server-cap number of players into the system as soon as the servers come up wins the "fight". b.There is no siege/diversion, because the other side can't get in the system with a system cap.
a.What's wrong with that? The "winners" can't stay logged in there forever. b.I don't think we're clear on the terms "siege" and "diversion". You don't go to where the enemy is when you do those.
Ruby Porto wrote:1)a.So 2000 players should be able to kill the enemy 2000 player fleet in one shot? How does that work? b.Fleets of 2000 aren't formed because they're worried about the structure (and a 2000 player fleet will demolish a structure fast), they form because of the 2000 player fleet that's expected to defend the structure. The EHP structure itself is irrelevant.
a.A fleet is not a "thing". It is an arrangement of "things". I think 2000 players should be able to kill any one of those "things" in that arrangement of "things" in one shot. b.Fleets of 2000 are formed because they have a day and a half to get their **** together. If they only had 30 minutes, I bet you there would be less of them, and thus, less need for things like TiDi.
Ruby Porto wrote:2)a.The hinderance of timers is a defense that small, or lopsided TZ groups can use to not get steamrolled at a time of day when they are unable to fight. b.Smaller groups may be unlikely to win with timers, but without them, they don't even get the opportunity to fight. c.Timers help everyone defend their space and stuff, but they help smaller groups far more.
a. Do you know what else is a defense that small or lopsided timezone groups can use to not get steamrolled? Not being small, and not having a lopsided timezone grouping. Also, steamrollers are really slow. You can just move out of the way. b.Smaller groups are more than welcome to go whelp a fleet whenever they feel like it, timer or not. Ask anybody. c.So, what you are saying is that the game treats smaller groups of players unfairly, by favoring them in the defense of their assets . . . and that this is fair because . . . ?
There is some skewed logic going on here. On the one hand, things like timers, massive EHP for structures, structures-under-attack notifications, etc. are intended to make it "fair" for people who are trying to defend their assets, but doing that makes it unfair for people who are attacking such assets, and it does so in a compounding way, culminating in TiDi.
So, fairness for defenders. Unfairness for attackers. |
baltec1
Bat Country
7481
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 05:39:00 -
[219] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
a.What's wrong with that? The "winners" can't stay logged in forever.
Yes we can. We hell camped the PL supercap fleet for a week before we let them go when they attempted to headshot VFK. We have the numbers to cap out a system for however long we need and nothing needs to be camped for a week. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3997
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 05:59:00 -
[220] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:a.What's wrong with that? The "winners" can't stay logged in forever. Yes we can. We hell camped the PL supercap fleet for a week before we let them go when they attempted to headshot VFK. We have the numbers to cap out a system for however long we need and nothing needs to be camped for a week. It's a challenge, isn't it?
Grath, you are clear to jump into VFK with all your supercaps now. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 07:01:00 -
[221] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:a.What's wrong with that? The "winners" can't stay logged in there forever. b.I don't think we're clear on the terms "siege" and "diversion". You don't go to where the enemy is when you do those.
a) Sure they can. Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory. All you have to do is sit there DT to DT on the day of the timer. b) So they send another fleet.
Quote:a.A fleet is not a "thing". It is an arrangement of "things". I think 2000 players should be able to kill any one of those "things" in that arrangement of "things" in one shot. b.Fleets of 2000 are formed because they have a day and a half to get their **** together. If they only had 30 minutes, I bet you there would be less of them, and thus, less need for things like TiDi.
a) Which brings us back to "Do." You said you didn't want a sov structure to take 2k players to blow up. I said they didn't form 2k players to blow it up, they formed 2k players to blow up the 2k defenders. I'll repeat: 2,000 people are not showing up because of the structure, they're showing up because of a different reason. b) How many can show up in 5 minutes? Unless you want to radically increase the EHP of sov structures, the largest alliances can nync one in a siege cycle. So you end up with no fight at all. Better yet, if you combine it with your system cap idea, a couple hundred guys can just BLOPs in system, cap it out, and go AFK in their bombers to kill all the structures.
Quote: a. Do you know what else is a defense that small or lopsided timezone groups can use to not get steamrolled? Not being small, and not having a lopsided timezone grouping. Also, steamrollers are really slow. You can just move out of the way. b.Smaller groups are more than welcome to go whelp a fleet whenever they feel like it, timer or not. Ask anybody. c.So, what you are saying is that the game treats smaller groups of players unfairly, by favoring them in the defense of their assets . . . and that this is fair because . . . ?
The question isn't whether they win or whether their loss is delayed, it's whether they have a chance to fight for their space. Timers give you the opportunity to fight for your space.
Quote:There is some skewed logic going on here. On the one hand, things like timers, massive EHP for structures, structures-under-attack notifications, etc. are intended to make it "fair" for people who are trying to defend their assets, but doing that makes it unfair for people who are attacking such assets, and it does so in a compounding way, culminating in TiDi.
So, fairness for defenders. Unfairness for attackers.
How is it unfair that people notice that they've been attacked? How is it unfair that the defenders have a reasonable opportunity to attempt a defense of their space? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus
71
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 07:10:00 -
[222] - Quote
Take two groups. One that's stronger in one timezone, the other stronger in another. Remove reinforcement timers. Can you guess what will happen ?
Guild Wars 2 showed me exactly what will happen: A daily cycle of one side capturing everything during the night, followed by the other faction taking it back the next day. The stuff you take never feels like yours because you know you can't hold it.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:b.Fleets of 2000 are formed because they have a day and a half to get their **** together. If they only had 30 minutes, I bet you there would be less of them, and thus, less need for things like TiDi.
Only the defenders fleet will be smaller, as only the defender has to form up quickly. The attacker has as much time as they like to form up. This is because the defender doesn't know they are the target until after the attacking fleet has formed up and started attacking. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3998
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 08:11:00 -
[223] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:Take two groups. One that's stronger in one timezone, the other stronger in another. Remove reinforcement timers. Can you guess what will happen ?
Guild Wars 2 showed me exactly what will happen: A daily cycle of one side capturing everything during the night, followed by the other faction taking it back the next day. The stuff you take never feels like yours because you know you can't hold it. That's one way to nerf jump bridges. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 09:06:00 -
[224] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:1. Sure they can. Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory. All you have to do is sit there DT to DT on the day of the timer. 2. So they send another fleet.
3. Which brings us back to "Do." You said you didn't want a sov structure to take 2k players to blow up. I said they didn't form 2k players to blow it up, they formed 2k players to blow up the 2k defenders. I'll repeat: 2,000 people are not showing up because of the structure, they're showing up because of a different reason. 4. How many can show up in 5 minutes? Unless you want to radically increase the EHP of sov structures, the largest alliances can nync one in a siege cycle. So you end up with no fight at all. Better yet, if you combine it with your system cap idea, a couple hundred guys can just BLOPs in system, cap it out, and go AFK in their bombers to kill all the structures.
5. The question isn't whether they win or whether their loss is delayed, it's whether they have a chance to fight for their space. Timers give you the opportunity to fight for your space.
6.How is it unfair that people notice that they've been attacked? 7.How is it unfair that the defenders have a reasonable opportunity to attempt a defense of their space?
1."Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory" wut? You get one destroyer into that system, and those Ibises are toast. Or, you could just take the system tomorrow. 2.So, now they have 2 fleets each equalling your own fleet, but you still think you should be able to hold the system. Why is that?
3.If 2000 enemy Talwars can 1-shot your titan, you'd have to be a moron to put your titan on grid with 2000 enemy Talwars, and even if you do, that titan won't be on grid with those Talwars for very long. And in such a scenario, you'd have to question the wisdom of putting anything on that grid at all. And, if there's nothing on the grid for those Talwars to kill, then they'll disperse. Then you can engage the smaller groups of them. Then you won't need TiDi to handle 2000 players on a grid. 4.So?
5.Removing a timer does not disband their corporation or alliance. It does not prevent them from forming a fleet. It does not deny them the use of their ships. It does not stop them from logging in. How, exactly, does a removing a timer stop them from doing anything? It only stops the other side from doing something. It forces the other side to play a certain way. That's not sandboxy.
6.How is it unfair to make them have to check on their stuff every once in a while? If they can't manage that or can't get someone else to manage that for them, maybe they have too much stuff. Your car doesn't call you when its being stolen. Hell, my children probably couldn't tell me they were being taken. Why does EVE jump on the Batphone whenever someone bumps into one of your structures? 7.What is a "reasonable" opportunity to defend their space, and why should EVE defend it for them until they get there? |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 09:08:00 -
[225] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:1.A daily cycle of one side capturing everything during the night, followed by the other faction taking it back the next day. The stuff you take never feels like yours because you know you can't hold it.
2. . . the defenders fleet will be smaller, as only the defender has to form up quickly. The attacker has as much time as they like to form up. This is because the defender doesn't know they are the target until after the attacking fleet has formed up and started attacking.
1. If you can't hold it, then how is it yours? You seem to be running into an existential false dilemma based on your quaint notion of "possession".
2. OK, but then I want 20 minutes notice before anyone is allowed to try to gank my ship, that way I can muster an appropriately sized fleet to counter the fleet that is going to try to gank me. Actually, make it an hour. Actually, let's base it on the amount of strontium clathrates I'm carrying around in the cargohold of my mining barge. See the double standard, yet? |
Smoking Blunts
ZC Industries Dark Stripes
663
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 10:02:00 -
[226] - Quote
so you want all of eve to be tidi if one system is tidi to make it equal for everyone?
oh that would make empire bears mad.
lets get it done ccp OMG when can i get a pic here
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7488
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 10:06:00 -
[227] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: 5.Removing a timer does not disband their corporation or alliance. It does not prevent them from forming a fleet. It does not deny them the use of their ships. It does not stop them from logging in. How, exactly, does a removing a timer stop them from doing anything? It only stops the other side from doing something. It forces the other side to play a certain way. That's not sandboxy.
How exactly do people in pacific nations defend their assets when russians attack under your idea? |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 10:44:00 -
[228] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1."Ibis+Cloak+System Cap = Victory" wut? You get one destroyer into that system, and those Ibises are toast. Or, you could just take the system tomorrow. 2.So, now they have 2 fleets each equalling your own fleet, but you still think you should be able to hold the system. Why is that?
Cool, 1 destroyer knocking down sov structures. Sounds fun.
Nope, all they need is 2 fleets equalling the server cap. Remember, under your scheme, there's a set limit to how many people can be in a system. Every servercap sized fleet you can field is one guaranteed system you're taking today.
Quote:3.If 2000 enemy Talwars can 1-shot your titan, you'd have to be a moron to put your titan on grid with 2000 enemy Talwars, and even if you do, that titan won't be on grid with those Talwars for very long. And in such a scenario, you'd have to question the wisdom of putting anything on that grid at all. And, if there's nothing on the grid for those Talwars to kill, then they'll disperse. Then you can engage the smaller groups of them. Then you won't need TiDi to handle 2000 players on a grid. 4.So?
3)Who said anything about a Titan? The 2000 man fleet is heading to fight another 2000 man fleet. But wait, under your system, whoever can peg the population cap automagically holds the field without having to fight anyone. 4) I'd like grinding Sov to occasionally include some ships fighting each other, not just shooting structures, thankyouverymuch.
Quote:5.Removing a timer does not disband their corporation or alliance. It does not prevent them from forming a fleet. It does not deny them the use of their ships. It does not stop them from logging in. How, exactly, does a removing a timer stop them from doing anything? It only stops the other side from doing something. It forces the other side to play a certain way. That's not sandboxy.
It denies them the opportunity to participate in the defense of their stuff. This is a game, you cannot expect people to be on call 24/7/365 with a better response time than the Police (Siege Cycle=5 minutes. Avg Police response in the US=9 minutes.)
Quote:6.How is it unfair to make them have to check on their stuff every once in a while? If they can't manage that or can't get someone else to manage that for them, maybe they have too much stuff. Your car doesn't call you when its being stolen. Hell, my children probably couldn't tell me they were being taken. Why does EVE jump on the Batphone whenever someone bumps into one of your structures? 7.What is a "reasonable" opportunity to defend their space, and why should EVE defend it for them until they get there?
6. Every structure, every 5 minutes, is not "once in a while." Remember, you got rid of timers. 7. Call it a day or so. Because the game works better that way.
Why should EVE limit the number of people in a system to guarantee a win for the attackers? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1022
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 11:18:00 -
[229] - Quote
ITT: shitloads of people that didn't knew the hell before TiDi and think that system hardcap is an awesome mechanic.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 11:48:00 -
[230] - Quote
Smoking Blunts wrote:so you want all of eve to be tidi if one system is tidi to make it equal for everyone?
I just want a reinforcement timer before someone can blow up my Retriever. Losing my assets without having the chance to defend them makes me sad.
Baltec1 wrote:How exactly do people in pacific nations defend their assets when russians attack under your idea?
"Yes we can. We hell camped the PL supercap fleet for a week before we let them go when they attempted to headshot VFK. We have the numbers to cap out a system for however long we need and nothing needs to be camped for a week."
Sounds like a plan. Yes we can!
Seriously, though: 1.cooperate with players in other timezones 2.don't **** off the Russians 3.if someone destroys your space stuff, kick their space ass so hard that they don't do that again 4.wake up early, stay up late to defend your stuff 5.Go back to high sec! 6.organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack 7.have good intel . . .
tl;dr - metagame
Ruby Porto wrote: 1.all they need is 2 fleets equalling the server cap . . . Every servercap sized fleet you can field is one guaranteed system you're taking today.
2.I'd like grinding Sov to occasionally include some ships fighting each other, not just shooting structures, thankyouverymuch.
3.It denies them the opportunity to participate in the defense of their stuff. This is a game, you cannot expect people to be on call 24/7/365 with a better response time than the Police (Siege Cycle=5 minutes. Avg Police response in the US=9 minutes.)
4.Every structure, every 5 minutes, is not "once in a while."
5.Call it a day or so. Because the game works better that way.
1.4000 players should be able to hold 2 systems.
2.No, you want a turkey shoot where some incompetent group fields a "defense fleet" that you can mass firepower on. What's sad is that so many are willing to oblige you because they've been fooled into thinking that "that's how you play the game".
3.If I called the police because someone was killing me and then died before the police arrived, they wouldn't just leave and give up because they "didn't have the opportunity to participate in the defense of the caller". If someone blows up your POS and you just leave and give up . . . I don't know . . .
4.If structures were being demolished every 5 minutes, how long do you think it would be before there were no more structures in the game? And, after all the structures were destroyed, what do you think would happen?
5.OK, so, a mission runner in a 2 billion ISK battleship should always get a day's warning before anyone is allowed to attack his ship? |
|
baltec1
Bat Country
7495
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 17:04:00 -
[231] - Quote
Quote: "Yes we can. We hell camped the PL supercap fleet for a week before we let them go when they attempted to headshot VFK. We have the numbers to cap out a system for however long we need and nothing needs to be camped for a week."
Sounds like a plan. Yes we can!
Seriously, though: 1.cooperate with players in other timezones 2.don't **** off the Russians 3.if someone destroys your space stuff, kick their space ass so hard that they don't do that again 4.wake up early, stay up late to defend your stuff 5.Go back to high sec! 6.organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack 7.have good intel . . .
tl;dr -
1. There are 200 nationalities with scorez of languages. Playing with people who speak another language isnt an option to many. 2. You dont have to. If they feel they can take your stuff they will. 3. How will you do this when you are locked out of your own stations and have lost all of your infrastructure? 4. Because most of us dont have jobs and require no sleep. 5. You dont want me back in high sec again. 6. And how will you do this when there is no timers and the main powers own hundreds of supercaps? 7. Because this doesn't work both ways.
This is a terrible idea that has literally nothing redeeming in it at all. TiDi works amazingly well and CCP deserves many beers.
Everything in you plan would damage EVE greatly.
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1023
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 19:23:00 -
[232] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: 5. You dont want me back in high sec again.
oh gods no, the virgins... all those virgins... and blood...
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 19:28:00 -
[233] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.4000 players should be able to hold 2 systems.
2.No, you want a turkey shoot where some incompetent group fields a "defense fleet" that you can mass firepower on. What's sad is that so many are willing to oblige you because they've been fooled into thinking that "that's how you play the game".
3.If I called the police because someone was killing me and then died before the police arrived, they wouldn't just leave and give up because they "didn't have the opportunity to participate in the defense of the caller". If someone blows up your POS and you just leave and give up . . . I don't know . . .
4.If structures were being demolished every 5 minutes, how long do you think it would be before there were no more structures in the game? And, after all the structures were destroyed, what do you think would happen?
5.OK, so, a mission runner in a 2 billion ISK battleship should always get a day's warning before anyone is allowed to attack his ship?
1) And under your proposal, they can't hold any. They can't even log in to either system once the attacker has capped it out.
2) Nope. You're suggesting a guaranteed (and fast) win for every attack, obviating the possibility of defense.
3) Wars take longer than individual combat. Your suggestions make effective defense impossible. Can you run out and check every single sov structure and POS in, let's say a constellation within 5 minutes of an arbitrary time? Let's find out. Clock starts now. If you haven't posted with which constellation and a list of all structures in it by 32 past the hour, I'll edit this to point out that you were unable to learn of any attack on your home in enough time to do anything about it.
4) Everybody would quit, because they just spent the past 8-10 months in a futile war where they had no opportunity to ever defend their space.
5) Invalid comparison. A ship is not, in any way, a permanent structure. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 19:50:00 -
[234] - Quote
Baltec1 wrote:1. There are 200 nationalities with scorez of languages. Playing with people who speak another language isnt an option to many. 2. You dont have to. If they feel they can take your stuff they will. 3. How will you do this when you are locked out of your own stations and have lost all of your infrastructure? 4. Because most of us dont have jobs and require no sleep. 5. You dont want me back in high sec again. 6. And how will you [organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack] when there is no timers and the main powers own hundreds of supercaps? 7. Because this doesn't work both ways.
8.This is a terrible idea that has literally nothing redeeming in it at all. TiDi works amazingly well and CCP deserves many beers.
9.Everything in you plan would damage EVE greatly.
1.Google -+-¦-Ç-¦-¦-+-¦-+-é-î, -¦-Ç-â-¦. 2.Why would they feel like they could take your stuff? 3.How will anyone do this when the blue donut already controls all the stations and infrastructure? 4.I thought you had "friends". Maybe your "friends" could fight for your stuff when you are at work, or sleeping, or whatnot. EVE isn't a single player game, after all. 5.I couldn't care less. I don't exactly "live" in high sec. 6.I agree. Force projection IS a problem. 7.How does having good intelligence not work both ways?
8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule.
9."Everything" in my "plan" would damage YOUR idea of EVE and YOUR gameplay greatly, maybe. From my standpoint, I'm sick of seeing the word "Invulnerable" posted on everything when I fly around in null. Monopoly is only a fun game until someone actually HAS a monopoly. Maybe you should try being a newbie again and the problems might become a little more apparent. 100 million skillpoints and 100 supercapitals at your back probably has a way of skewing your perspective. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1290
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 19:58:00 -
[235] - Quote
just because you think a change might do a thing doesn't mean it will do that thing
mayhaw mogan please describe your knowledge and experience of fleet fights and timer mechanics ingame |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:02:00 -
[236] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:1) And under your proposal, they can't hold any. They can't even log in to either system once the attacker has capped it out.
2) Nope. You're suggesting a guaranteed (and fast) win for every attack, obviating the possibility of defense.
3)It's 37 past the hour, and you just lost your space without being able to even attempt a defense.
4) Everybody would quit, because they just spent the past 8-10 months in a futile war where they had no opportunity to ever defend their space.
5) Invalid comparison. A ship is not, in any way, a permanent structure.
1.So, take a different system until they get tired. Siege it. Make them move by hitting them somewhere else.
2.And as it is now, it's a guaranteed defense as long as I don't do something stupid like forget to have strontium clathrates in my POS.
3.TAKE IT BACK!
4.EVERYBODY does not "own" space, Ruby. Very few people "own" space. Why is that?
5.A ship is an asset. A POS is an asset. A station is an asset. And, how much lag would there be in Jita if every attempted suicide gank necessitated a day long countdown for the victim's ship to come out of reinforced mode and second confrontation? |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3797
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:08:00 -
[237] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.So, take a different system until they get tired. Siege it. Make them move by hitting them somewhere else.
2.And as it is now, it's a guaranteed defense as long as I don't do something stupid like forget to have strontium clathrates in my POS.
3.TAKE IT BACK!
4.EVERYBODY does not "own" space, Ruby. Very few people "own" space. Why is that?
5.A ship is an asset. A POS is an asset. A station is an asset. And, how much lag would there be in Jita if every attempted suicide gank necessitated a day long countdown for the victim's ship to come out of reinforced mode and second confrontation?
1. They're sieged. They can't move, and you can't hurt them, since everyone's long since staged out of NPC null or LS.
2. Nope. You actually have to fight to defend your stuff. If you don't, the attackers roll up and stomp the structure when it comes out of RF.
3. Why would you? You can't gain any benefits from holding space, because you cannot possibly hold it.
4. Under your proposal nobody would own any space in any meaningful way.
6. A ship is piloted. A POS is not. The defender is always present when you shoot a ship. The same is not true of a structure. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1290
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:11:00 -
[238] - Quote
also the whole thing that having two fleets show up to the same place at the same time to duke it out is basically the intention of the timer mechanic |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1290
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:12:00 -
[239] - Quote
you know, having a game instead of a shitshow |
baltec1
Bat Country
7496
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:28:00 -
[240] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
1.Google -+-¦-Ç-¦-¦-+-¦-+-é-î, -¦-Ç-â-¦. 2.Why would they feel like they could take your stuff? 3.How will anyone do this when the blue donut already controls all the stations and infrastructure? 4.I thought you had "friends". Maybe your "friends" could fight for your stuff when you are at work, or sleeping, or whatnot. EVE isn't a single player game, after all. 5.I couldn't care less. I don't exactly "live" in high sec. 6.I agree. Force projection IS a problem. 7.How does having good intelligence not work both ways?
8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule.
9."Everything" in my "plan" would damage YOUR idea of EVE and YOUR gameplay greatly, maybe. From my standpoint, I'm sick of seeing the word "Invulnerable" posted on everything when I fly around in null. Monopoly is only a fun game until someone actually HAS a monopoly. Maybe you should try being a newbie again and the problems might become a little more apparent. 100 million skillpoints and 100 supercapitals at your back probably has a way of skewing your perspective.
1. Good luck doing that over voice comms 2. Because it is impossible to defend it under your system
The rest is just waffling about nothing.
Making defence impossible is not fixing anything, its breaking everything. Locking out people from a system is also not fixing anything and breaking everything. If you had been around as long as me you would know that every single sov owner in null has taken that sov from someone else. This idea of yours simply cannot work. |
|
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1291
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 20:53:00 -
[241] - Quote
well. having no timers would fix the problem of blues
of course i mean the problem that alliances still have some others not set blue. if anyone can blow up your stuff when you look away for a moment, the only way to operate is to form non-infrastructure pacts with everyone who can field a fleet of five dudes |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4000
|
Posted - 2013.08.04 22:12:00 -
[242] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:well. having no timers would fix the problem of blues
of course i mean the problem that alliances still have some others not set blue. if anyone can blow up your stuff when you look away for a moment, the only way to operate is to form non-infrastructure pacts with everyone who can field a fleet of five dudes Don't we already have a blue donut There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 01:04:00 -
[243] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule. when you say "make for dynamic gameplay" what you mean is "GSF and PL burn down every player owned structure in EVE within 24 hours"
e: except for the ones in highsec I guess because concord |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
179
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 01:07:00 -
[244] - Quote
i mean we've already seen in the east that a massed super blob can grind timerless stations in less than 10 minutes each and they have a bit more hp than towers do so guess what will happen |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4005
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 05:21:00 -
[245] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:8.The redeeming value in it would be to make for more dynamic gameplay where a force density of 2000 Megathrons wasn't necessary to accomplish something. (It's hit-and-run, not hit-and-stand-around-waiting-for-an-arbitrary-timer-to-tick-down-then-slug-it-out-with-the-enemy's-main-force-and-fail-to-accomplish-the-objective-if-you-lose-that-fight.) Besides that, maybe I just don't want to play EVE on your schedule. when you say "make for dynamic gameplay" what you mean is "GSF and PL burn down every player owned structure in EVE within 24 hours" e: except for the ones in highsec I guess because concord Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3799
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 07:27:00 -
[246] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever.
Why limit yourself to outside of HS? Scout the HS moons and record every corp. Then shoot them a quick wardec. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:16:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:1. They're sieged. They can't move, and you can't hurt them, since everyone's long since staged out of NPC null or LS. 2. Nope. You actually have to fight to defend your stuff. If you don't, the attackers roll up and stomp the structure when it comes out of RF. 3. Why would you? You can't gain any benefits from holding space, because you cannot possibly hold it. 4. Under your proposal nobody would own any space in any meaningful way. 6. A ship is piloted. A POS is not. The defender is always present when you shoot a ship. The same is not true of a structure. 7. Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever. Why limit yourself to outside of HS? Scout the HS moons and record every corp. Then shoot them a quick wardec.
1.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 2.If a reinforcement timer wasn't an automatic, guaranteed defense, then there would be no reason to respond with a defense fleet. There would be nothing to defend. 3.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 4.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties.
6.Who cares? Why do you think POSes and other such structures should be given special exemption from being interacted with?
7.Why hasn't this happened, yet? Is it because that 5 man high sec corp has a day or two of guaranteed invulnerability, allowing them to form a "defense fleet" to fight off a 500 man blob from null sec? Pfffft . . .
Benny Ohu wrote:also the whole thing that having two fleets show up to the same place at the same time to duke it out is basically the intention of the timer mechanic
you know, having a game instead of a shitshow (i.e., the rest of EVE Online)
How do you know what the mechanic was intended to do? Do you work for CCP? And, how is not having to be present to defend your stuff a "game" versus losing what you didn't bother to protect being a "shitshow"?
Baltec1 wrote:1. Russian language it's t3h harrrrrd 2. defense it's t3h harrrrrd
The rest is just waffling about nothing.
Making defence impossible is not fixing anything, its breaking everything. Locking out people from a system is also not fixing anything and breaking everything. If you had been around as long as me you would know that every single sov owner in null has taken that sov from someone else. This idea of yours simply cannot work.
1.They fly REAL spaceships that way, with Russians, Americans, Japanese, French duders . . . I think they might have even had a Mexican one time. (I'll have to look that up.) Get an FC who knows both languages or get your plan sorted out ahead of time. 2.Ok, well, get "friends" to help you. Don't have so much stuff. Hide your stuff or put it where they can't reach or just put yourself between your stuff and the bad guys.
Sovereignty (grinding), NAP-fests, the need for genuine cooperation in EVE, force projection balance, the use of intelligence tools, and the imposition of reasonable limits on how you can interact with Tranquility are all "waffling about nothing"? You basically said that no one can take sovereignty from Goonswarm given the current game mechanics. That's not "waffling about nothing".
This idea is just a passing notion on alternatives and augmentations to "the system by which the server handles lag" a.k.a. TiDi. I mostly mention it hoping for someone to come into this thread and shoot it down in spectacular fashion and hopefully teach me something. So far, all I have seen is a bunch of null-bears complaining that it's not fair, because people would violence their space stuff. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3810
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:42:00 -
[248] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 2.If a reinforcement timer wasn't an automatic, guaranteed defense, then there would be no reason to respond with a defense fleet. There would be nothing to defend. 3.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 4.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties.
1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? 2. There not being anything to defend is a problem. 3. Your proposal guarantees the success of every attack by a group that can field a system-cap fleet. What is your proposed method to defend against this? You've already demonstrated that detecting such an attack isn't feasible under your proposed system, so how do you defend against an attack that you can't detect and cannot directly attack? Magic? 4. You don't own what you can't defend. Under your proposal, nobody can defend any space. Ergo, nobody owns any space.
Quote:6.Who cares? Why do you think POSes and other such structures should be given special exemption from being interacted with?
A pilot is guaranteed an opportunity to defend their ship (unless they do something to give that opportunity up). Why shouldn't a POS owner? Non-persistent assets (ships) are fundamentally different from persistent ones (POSes and structures).
Again, why should EVE magically limit the number of people in a system in order to guarantee the success of every single attack? Why should people not have the opportunity to defend their persistent assets? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:3. Your proposal guarantees the success of every attack by a group that can field a system-cap fleet. What is your proposed method to defend against this? You've already demonstrated that detecting such an attack isn't feasible under your proposed system, so how do you defend against an attack that you can't detect and cannot directly attack? Magic? As a member of a coalition that blobs like mad, clearly you need to use The Mittani's Regards to defend. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:48:00 -
[250] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? See you in 319 station ~whoooo~ There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:50:00 -
[251] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Yes, we went over this. Dabigredboat would ascend to godhood on the burning wreckage of every player-owned structure in not-highsec ever. Why limit yourself to outside of HS? Scout the HS moons and record every corp. Then shoot them a quick wardec. It's not impossible. We could clear all the areas near jita of POSes, but it would take a while for the wardec to start.
That timer needs to do, as well. It's a time in which they can prepare. We should be able to line up 1000 megas and just instantly start shooting the POS to death immediately.
Also, sadly, Boat appear loves using bombers to bomb, and I don't think Lyris Nairn intends to achieve immortality via structure shooting, so... There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3811
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:51:00 -
[252] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:RubyPorto wrote:1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? See you in 319 station ~whoooo~
FWST > 319 This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4021
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:52:00 -
[253] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:RubyPorto wrote:1. Groups are already staging out of NPC space and LS to avoid being hellcamped. If they can have their sov flipped overnight without any possibility of defending it (short of an inverted hellcamp to keep the system pegged at cap), who in their right mind would live in a conquerable station? See you in 319 station ~whoooo~ FWST > 319 Karan, hth There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:48:00 -
[254] - Quote
since you continuously ignore the most important point here I'll put it at the top once: you can kill an unstronted tower in less than a siege cycle with a sufficient number of dreads. explain how you're proposing to form a defense in less than 5 minutes
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 2.If a reinforcement timer wasn't an automatic, guaranteed defense, then there would be no reason to respond with a defense fleet. There would be nothing to defend. 3.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. 4.That's a prediction about a system that has unstable elements and emergent properties. your proposed system has some properties that we know of though: 1) a system cap of X people guarantees that the first group to stuff X people into the system wins by default because it is literally impossible for other people to contest it b) no reinforcement timer means you can shoot the structure without recourse by the defending party because due to 1) they can't even be on the same grid as the tower III) short of a massive number of spies across all alliances with a dread fleet you won't even know that your tower has died until you pull the killmail from api
there's nothing emergent and unstable about it, in fact it's pretty clear to everyone who has shot structures at some point in their eve career how a timerless tower handles, because guess what people sometimes forget to put stront in
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:7.Why hasn't this happened, yet? Is it because that 5 man high sec corp has a day or two of guaranteed invulnerability, allowing them to form a "defense fleet" to fight off a 500 man blob from null sec? Pfffft . . . it hasn't happened yet because shooting towers in subcaps while boat is leading the fleet is one of the worst possible experiences you can have in this game, worse than things like "getting shot by blap titans while blackscreened in the good old pre-tidi days" or "ratting"
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:How do you know what the mechanic was intended to do? Do you work for CCP? And, how is not having to be present to defend your stuff a "game" versus losing what you didn't bother to protect being a "shitshow"? you have to show to defend your stuff because if you don't, you'll lose your tower once it comes out of rf of course your proposed system won't have defense fleets at all because alliances all over eve have repeatedly shown that it's possible to kill an unstronted tower in a single siege cycle, good luck getting a defense fleet rallied and to your tower in 5 minutes (that's assuming you notice your tower getting shot immediately when the dreads start sieging which is ridiculous in itself)
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:This idea is just a passing notion on alternatives and augmentations to "the system by which the server handles lag" a.k.a. TiDi. I mostly mention it hoping for someone to come into this thread and shoot it down in spectacular fashion and hopefully teach me something. So far, all I have seen is a bunch of null-bears complaining that it's not fair, because people would violence their space stuff. you mentioned it because you have no idea how towers, or reinforcement timers, or sov, or dreads work |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11135
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:50:00 -
[255] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:well. having no timers would fix the problem of blues
of course i mean the problem that alliances still have some others not set blue. if anyone can blow up your stuff when you look away for a moment, the only way to operate is to form non-infrastructure pacts with everyone who can field a fleet of five dudes Don't we already have a blue donut
it's more of a blue croissant
1 Kings 12:11
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1026
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 09:54:00 -
[256] - Quote
I now think that it's safe to say that we reached a point where all you have in this thread is :retort: and :counter-retort: [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1296
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 10:01:00 -
[257] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:also the whole thing that having two fleets show up to the same place at the same time to duke it out is basically the intention of the timer mechanic
you know, having a game instead of a shitshow
How do you know what the mechanic was intended to do? Do you work for CCP? And, how is not having to be present to defend your stuff a "game" versus losing what you didn't bother to protect being a "shitshow"? don't edit quotes. and why should i answer your questions? as well as talking from almost complete ignorance and inexperience, you ignore everything else your betters tell you. |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 12:13:00 -
[258] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:Groups are already staging out of NPC [null] space and LS
1. . . why should EVE magically limit the number of people in a system
They must be doing that for different reasons and by a different dynamic than the one you are predicting, because what we are talking about in this thread is hypothetical. None of it affects what they do.
1.Systems have limits. Why should the system be stretched to it's limits and beyond? It's a game, and we're supposed to work within the limitations of that game. A thousand or two thousand people is a hell of a lot of people. Rather than make CCP bend over backwards to fulfill our every gaming desire, maybe we could just accept a more realistic rule-set.
Sirane Elrek wrote:1) a system cap of X people guarantees that the first group to stuff X people into the system wins by default because it is literally impossible for other people to contest it b) no reinforcement timer means you can shoot the structure without recourse by the defending party because due to 1) they can't even be on the same grid as the tower III) short of a massive number of spies across all alliances with a dread fleet you won't even know that your tower has died until you pull the killmail from api
1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you?
b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets.
III)Even the super rich have people that manage their assets and maintain their properties. Why should you be able to AFK your space empire? Why shouldn't you or somebody have to go and look at your tower to make sure it was still there churning out ISK for you? You live in null security space. That means "no security". Well, what the hell would you call a day long cloak of invincibility for your space house or your space factory?
...
We're calling it "defense", but what we're talking about isn't actually defense. It's an ambush. Defense would be if you stationed a force near the structure to combat any force that might try to attack it. Defense is expensive, and it doesn't always work.
What we're talking about is the structure owner being notified that a force will attack his/her structure, and when that attack is likely to occur, right down to the minute. The structure owner knows the likely identity of the attackers, has a few clues as to the minimum size and composition of the force. He/she has time to do reconnassaince, to plan and to prepare for the engagement and muster up an appropriately sized force of their own. That's not a defense. That's a trap.
They say that "the things we own own us". What they mean is that we have to take care of all the stuff we have and the more we have, the more care we have to take. That's fine, but you're not explaining why you think EVE should have to take care of that stuff for you, especially when some noob in a Venture can get ganked in the blink of an eye in high sec without any recourse.
Benny Ohu wrote:don't edit quotes. shitshow |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1296
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 12:46:00 -
[259] - Quote
my game idea is that they forget this whole 'computer' thing and sell us pots of paint. we buy the paint, brush it on the ceiling, and then watch it dry. it's basically the same way mayhaw mogan wants us to play eve online but you don't have to pay internet bills and cfc don't have an advantage because there's no real ceilings in their gooncaves |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 17:39:00 -
[260] - Quote
explain how you're going to mount a defense within a single siege cycle (5 minutes)
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you? enough systems at once to kill the tower I want to kill (it's one, a tower doesn't exist in multiple systems simultaneously) and when i kill the tower i can immediately afterwards cap another system and kill another tower because the first tower is dead so you don't have to cap that system anymore.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets. fine. you have a network of scouts and sentries, and a response fleet at the ready, 24 hours a day. your enemy is still one-cycling a tower (this means you have to get into the system and kill or at least tackle the dreads within 5 minutes). i dunno if you noticed it but dreads have jump drives, i.e. you can't properly preempt them on their way to shoot the tower, they just jump right next to it, push butan, and jump out.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:III)Even the super rich have people that manage their assets and maintain their properties. Why should you be able to AFK your space empire? Why shouldn't you or somebody have to go and look at your tower to make sure it was still there churning out ISK for you? yeah we have those too, they're called "space pixies"GSOL and they're the guys who tend to our towers because turns out if you drop a tower somewhere and then expect it to autonomously sh-ût isk into your corp wallet until the end of time that isn't actually what happens
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You live in null security space. That means "no security". Well, what the hell would you call a day long cloak of invincibility for your space house or your space factory? i'd call it a game design trade-off. if you don't have it then there's no point at all in dropping any kind of structure because it's impossible to defend. the reason for that being the point you conveniently choose to ignore continually: you can't mount a defense against an attack on structures without reinforcement timers because you don't have any reasonable amount of time (the amount of time you have is 5 minutes (please explain how to counter an attack within 5 minutes)) |
|
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 21:41:00 -
[261] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Again, why should EVE magically limit the number of people in a system in order to guarantee the success of every single attack? Why should people not have the opportunity to defend their persistent assets?
Absolutely! Remove that stupid server cap. It's very un Eve ish. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4048
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 22:06:00 -
[262] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:explain how you're going to mount a defense within a single siege cycle (5 minutes) Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you? I wouldn't mind we just won the game like that.
By structure grinding everyone hostile to us to death. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3818
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 22:08:00 -
[263] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:They must be doing that for different reasons and by a different dynamic than the one you are predicting, because what we are talking about in this thread is hypothetical. None of it affects what they do.
1.Systems have limits. Why should the system be stretched to it's limits and beyond? It's a game, and we're supposed to work within the limitations of that game. A thousand or two thousand people is a hell of a lot of people. Rather than make CCP bend over backwards to fulfill our every gaming desire, maybe we could just accept a more realistic rule-set.
I told you exactly why they are currently doing that sometimes. Because there is the possibility of being Hellcamped into that station. Your suggestion would turn a hellcamp into something that prevents you from even logging in, along with a virtual guarantee that the station will no longer belong to you once it is attacked. Why would anyone stage in a structure that cannot be defended?
Since when does a Solar System have an arbitrary limit on how many people can be in it? How is that realistic (before you say gate limitations, remember that you can also enter systems without using gates)? How is "allow for the possibility of defense" an unreasonable request? TiDi is an elegant mechanism to deal with the fact that big fights will (and should) happen when 20,000 person strong groups go to war. The problem with your proposed limit is not the size of the limits, it's the fact that any arbitrary limits eliminate the possibility of significant fights. It's a formalized version of the problem we had before TiDi where the first side to load grid got a turkey shoot against the other side while they were black screened that.
Quote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you?
You only need to cap out the systems you're attacking.
Quote:b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets.
A response fleet which has to be able to respond anywhere in less time than it takes to light a cyno and press jump. Because once a system hits your proposed population cap, no defense is possible, because nobody can enter the system. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4049
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:18:00 -
[264] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Quote:1)How many systems do you seriously think you can cap? If you have enough players that you can cap every system in null, why shouldn't you just win the game? I don't have a problem with that. Why would you? You only need to cap out the systems you're attacking. Quote:b)No reinforcement timer means you would have to have a networks of scouts and sentries, not to mention an emergency response fleet, and the ability to withstand attacks on important assets. A response fleet which has to be able to respond anywhere in less time than it takes to light a cyno and press jump. Because once a system hits your proposed population cap, no defense is possible, because nobody can enter the system. So basically: 1) Every newbie counts, we just need enough pilots to hit the cap first and foremost. And a proper combat fleet or two just in case we're a little short and some guys get in. 2) Titans are the best because you can nigh-instantly bridge in your system-capping fleet at once, which is possible since 3) You can pretty much instantly break sov. Which means no cynojammers. Get your system-capping fleet in position and just shoot the sov structures down with subcaps if you have to. Recommend that the newbies and multiboxed alts used to keep the system capped stay off grid if possible. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1027
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:19:00 -
[265] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:stuff any hard limit, no matter how benign the reason behind it, can, and will, be exploited, no matter how you twist it, sprinkle it with spice, sugar coat it, and wrap it in candy paper. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4049
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 23:21:00 -
[266] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:stuff any hard limit, no matter how benign the reason behind it, can, and will, be exploited, no matter how you twist it, sprinkle it with spice, sugar coat it, and wrap it in candy paper. As a hard core blobber, I somehow must approve of this on some level.
One moment as I consider how to get as many accounts as possible in order to help my coalition with the next SystemCapfleet doctrine. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:30:00 -
[267] - Quote
Baltec1 wrote:6. And how will you [organize your space stuff in a way that makes it easy to defend and hard to attack] when there is no timers and the main powers own hundreds of supercaps?
Sirane Elrek wrote:your enemy is still one-cycling a tower (this means you have to get into the system and kill or at least tackle the dreads within 5 minutes). i dunno if you noticed it but dreads have jump drives, i.e. you can't properly preempt them on their way to shoot the tower, they just jump right next to it, push butan, and jump out.
Ruby Porto wrote:A response fleet which has to be able to respond anywhere in less time than it takes to light a cyno and press jump.
So, now, force projection is a problem? I can get on that bandwagon. That's actually an important component of the argument that TiDi gives advantage to the larger side, because the attackers are probably under TiDi (read:gimped) and the people rushing to defend against the attack are probably not under TiDi (read:moving at full speed).
Now, I understand that there are certain entities that could conceivably destroy every structure in the game if structures didn't have timers, but there is an economic impact to that, as well as a diplomatic one. They can't blow stuff up ad infinitum. They will take losses. Losses must be replaced, and if you break everyone else's stuff, they'd have to be stupid to sell you the tools you need to continue to break their stuff. Also, things just get more expensive if you are destroying everything.
You can't just put 2000 players somewhere and win the game. You have to keep them there. You have to repel other players from gaining tactical or strategic positions. You have to secure your supply routes and store ships and materials. The imbalance that reinforcement timers impose on the game is not that last day or so of invincibility so much as it is all that time of invincibility before the structure was even engaged, when it was doing its job without anyone able to interfere. It is the knowledge other entities have that if they want to strike that target, they will have to do so en masse, or not at all. It's akin to playing chess with the rule that you needed all your pieces attacking the king in order to take him off the board. And, while that rule absolutely makes a certain sense from the standpoint of game design, at the end of the day, that period of reinforcement is a bunch of wasted time that both the server and the players could put to better use sorting out who's internet space empire controlled what station or system.
Think about it: There is a lull in activity while something is coming out of reinforced, then a flurry of activity as one side tries to move the structure out of its vulnerable state and the other side tries to destroy/flip it. If you spread the potential for that activity out over a longer duration a->y, there will be less incentive for groups of players to overload the system at time z. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3820
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:38:00 -
[268] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: So, now, force projection is a problem? I can get on that bandwagon. That's actually an important component of the argument that TiDi gives advantage to the larger side, because the attackers are probably under TiDi (read:gimped) and the people rushing to defend against the attack are probably not under TiDi (read:moving at full speed).
Nope, the problem is that, under your proposed system, once the attacker gets the server-cap number of people in system (doesn't matter the route they take to get there), the battle is preempted. Combine that with the fact that the attack cannot be detected in advance, and you have a situation where defense is impossible.
Quote:Now, I understand that there are certain entities that could conceivably destroy every structure in the game if structures didn't have timers, but there is an economic impact to that, as well as a diplomatic one. They can't blow stuff up ad infinitum. They will take losses. Losses must be replaced, and if you break everyone else's stuff, they'd have to be stupid to sell you the tools you need to continue to break their stuff. Also, things just get more expensive if you are destroying everything.
Under your proposed system, yes they can continue that forever, and no they won't take losses. How do you inflict losses on a server cap dread fleet? All they have to do is *be in system* to be completely safe. There's not even any reason to bring carriers to keep the dreads capped up, since they can just hang out in perfect safety in their capped out system.
Quote:Think about it: There is a lull in activity while something is coming out of reinforced, then a flurry of activity as one side tries to move the structure out of its vulnerable state and the other side tries to destroy/flip it. If you spread the potential for that activity out over a longer duration a->y, there will be less incentive for groups of players to overload the system at time z.
There will be no incentive at time Z, because the structure will be destroyed by an invulnerable server cap fleet at time A. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4054
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:44:00 -
[269] - Quote
If Boat is reading this, he's probably harder than a maximum hardened Caldari large POS by now. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3821
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 00:57:00 -
[270] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:If Boat is reading this, he's probably harder than a maximum hardened Amarr large POS by now. (Amarr can get harder than Caldari)
275 million EHP is pretty hard.
And still goes poof in 114 seconds to a 200 man Moros fleet. (77 Moros will, just, do it in a Siege cycle.) This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4057
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 02:24:00 -
[271] - Quote
Pity supercarriers can't shoot POSes. I think. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3822
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 03:15:00 -
[272] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Pity supercarriers can't shoot POSes. I think.
Last I heard, fighterbombers could reach smalls. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Nakkano
Internet Space Pimps
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 06:26:00 -
[273] - Quote
Unfortunately, TiDi is not gameplay transparent as OP shows. It's a bandaid (albeit a good one) to fix a server capacity problem.
There should be an expectation of a permanent solution, and not a long road of balance changes to compensate for TiDi. The goal is to get to the point where TiDi is never engaged. |
Michael Ruckert
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 07:11:00 -
[274] - Quote
Cue TIDI music during the next event.
http://youtu.be/Rtkdo7bOmJc |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4064
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 07:20:00 -
[275] - Quote
Nakkano wrote:Unfortunately, TiDi is not gameplay transparent as OP shows. It's a bandaid (albeit a good one) to fix a server capacity problem.
There should be an expectation of a permanent solution, and not a long road of balance changes to compensate for TiDi. The goal is to get to the point where TiDi is never engaged. We the blobbers will continue to push as many players as we can onto a single grid at once. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 08:38:00 -
[276] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:So, now, force projection is a problem? I can get on that bandwagon. That's actually an important component of the argument that TiDi gives advantage to the larger side, because the attackers are probably under TiDi (read:gimped) and the people rushing to defend against the attack are probably not under TiDi (read:moving at full speed). ahahahah right how about you instead talk about stuff you understand, like mining ice in osmon or spamming jita local
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:if you break everyone else's stuff, they'd have to be stupid to sell you the tools you need to continue to break their stuff. sure just tell me how i can set my trit sell order to "will not sell to goons"
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You have to secure your supply routes and store ships and materials. it's called "jump freighters" and "npc stations". unless you suggest we can take npc stations as well.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Think about it: There is a lull in activity while something is coming out of reinforced, then a flurry of activity as one side tries to move the structure out of its vulnerable state and the other side tries to destroy/flip it. If you spread the potential for that activity out over a longer duration a->y, there will be less incentive for groups of players to overload the system at time z. i guess there won't be much of an incentive to overload the system because i can just jump in a 250 man dread fleet and kill the tower before you even know it was under attack (because it happened in less than 5 minutes). so is your new suggestion now to make structures have more hp so people with a 250 man dread fleet can't just kill it dead in less than 5 minutes?
please explain how you're proposing to mount a defense in less than 5 minutes |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
181
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 08:40:00 -
[277] - Quote
i may sound like a broken record here, but for some reason you have missed that question a couple of times so i'm just posting it again so you see it
please explain how you're proposing to mount a defense in less than 5 minutes (less than 2 minutes in fact according to RubyPorto, and i have no reason to doubt his numbers) |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1027
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 08:42:00 -
[278] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:So, now, force projection is a problem? I can get on that bandwagon. That's actually an important component of the argument that TiDi gives advantage to the larger side, because the attackers are probably under TiDi (read:gimped) and the people rushing to defend against the attack are probably not under TiDi (read:moving at full speed). attacker reinforcements will also be moving at full speed, and when both sides arrive at the scene they will all be under TiDi, so this becomes a non-factor. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4068
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 09:34:00 -
[279] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:i may sound like a broken record here, but for some reason you have missed that question a couple of times so i'm just posting it again so you see it
please explain how you're proposing to mount a defense in less than 5 minutes (less than 2 minutes in fact according to RubyPorto, and i have no reason to doubt his numbers) You don't own any structures, that's how. Finally, the broken POS code is no longer an issue, POSes will affect nearly no players at all. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Victor Dathar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
109
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:06:00 -
[280] - Quote
How to defend your space in 5 seconds:
1. Offline a defensive SBU 2. Miller Time ^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7 |
|
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
619
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:16:00 -
[281] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Grimpak wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:stuff any hard limit, no matter how benign the reason behind it, can, and will, be exploited, no matter how you twist it, sprinkle it with spice, sugar coat it, and wrap it in candy paper. As a hard core blobber, I somehow must approve of this on some level. One moment as I consider how to get as many accounts as possible in order to help my coalition with the next SystemCapfleet doctrine.
Cut the SRP to the minimum (big ships are not that usefull when you can prevent anyone form entering the system to fight you anyway) and use the saved ISKs alliancewide to fund accounts with PLEX? |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:20:00 -
[282] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:server cap, server cap, server cap
Let's say the server cap was 1000 players. Let's say there are 20,000 players in an alliance. That means that an alliance can cap 20 systems (with all their players logged on 23.5/7). How many systems can a 20,000 player alliance hold given the CURRENT game dynamics?
Sirane Elrek wrote:please explain how you're proposing to mount a defense in less than 5 minutes
I'm not proposing anyone mount a defense in 5 minutes that can repel 250 dreadnoughts. That should take a miracle or some sort of space magic. But, you should be planning a defense of your structure before you ever anchor and online it, so that gives you more than 5 minutes. First rule of EVE: Don't fly (or anchor) what you can't afford to lose.
Park a few triage carriers nearby if it's that important.
Grimpak wrote:attacker reinforcements will also be moving at full speed, and when both sides arrive at the scene they will all be under TiDi
Agreed. However, why would you ever assault a target with less force than was required to neutralize it? Ideally, "attacker reinforcements" is an oxymoron. Why would you attack a hill with 50 dudes if you were pretty sure it was going to take 100 dudes to claim the hill? And, if you used 100 dudes but suddenly it became apparent that it would take 200 dudes to claim the hill, you'd withdraw, because you don't have enough dudes. There is the possibility that you had another 100 dudes available in that case, but then why did you only send 100 dudes to take the hill? Send 200! tl;dr - An efficient attacking force should have its forces in position before the attack even begins. |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
182
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:22:00 -
[283] - Quote
Victor Dathar wrote:How to defend your space in 5 seconds:
1. Offline a defensive SBU 2. Miller Time
no you see SBUs won't exist in the new world order because having stuff go invulnerable on certain conditions is bad gameplay:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Defense would be if you stationed a force near the structure to combat any force that might try to attack it. Defense is expensive, and it doesn't always work. |
Victor Dathar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
109
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:22:00 -
[284] - Quote
What if we put a flag on the top of every station and to capture that station you need to go and get that flag and take it back to your base? ^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7 |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
182
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:29:00 -
[285] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:I'm not proposing anyone mount a defense in 5 minutes that can repel 250 dreadnoughts. That should take a miracle or some sort of space magic. But, you should be planning a defense of your structure before you ever anchor and online it, so that gives you more than 5 minutes. First rule of EVE: Don't fly (or anchor) what you can't afford to lose. "don't drop towers because you can't defend them anyway, and don't live outside of npc stations because you'll get locked out of your stuff faster than you can say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3832
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:33:00 -
[286] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Let's say the server cap was 1000 players. Let's say there are 20,000 players in an alliance. That means that an alliance can cap 20 systems (with all their players logged on 23.5/7). How many systems can a 20,000 player alliance hold given the CURRENT game dynamics?
So... you're suggesting that an alliance should not be able to keep any system they can't keep pegged at server cap 23/7/365. And this is good gameplay... how?
Quote:I'm not proposing anyone mount a defense in 5 minutes that can repel 250 dreadnoughts. That should take a miracle or some sort of space magic. But, you should be planning a defense of your structure before you ever anchor and online it, so that gives you more than 5 minutes. First rule of EVE: Don't fly (or anchor) what you can't afford to lose.
Park a few triage carriers nearby if it's that important.
So.. you're saying you don't think anyone should be able to mount any defense ever.
How do the Triage carriers reach the structure? The system's at the server cap. For that matter, how do you detect the attack to even try throwing Triage Carriers into a Dreadfleet?(You do remember your proposal to remove attack mails, right?)
Quote:tl;dr - An efficient attacking force should have its forces in position before the attack even begins.
^^Making my point for me. How do you defend a structure when your proposed game mechanics prevent you from entering the system it's in until it is long dead and the attacking fleet departed? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11177
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:53:00 -
[287] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote: Agreed. However, why would you ever assault a target with less force than was required to neutralize it? Ideally, "attacker reinforcements" is an oxymoron. Why would you attack a hill with 50 dudes if you were pretty sure it was going to take 100 dudes to claim the hill? And, if you used 100 dudes but suddenly it became apparent that it would take 200 dudes to claim the hill, you'd withdraw, because you don't have enough dudes. There is the possibility that you had another 100 dudes available in that case, but then why did you only send 100 dudes to take the hill? Send 200! tl;dr - An efficient attacking force should have its forces in position before the attack even begins.
It's pretty obvious from this that you've never been involved in a 'for real' 0.0 sov war. That is, it was pretty obvious from your other posts but now it's confirmed
Reinforcements are an absolutely key component of an extended fight. You see, those guys who lose ships, what do you think they do? Say "well played good sirs" and log off? Or do you think maybe they get in another ship and rejoin the fight?
In addition, it is extremely poor strategy to put your high value ships on the field until you're confident that they're going to be reasonably secure. No one fields supercaps into a battlefield without gaining subcap superiority (or at least having good reason to expect to have it).
I'm sorry but your conception of how these battles unfold is naive in the extreme. I suggest gaining some actual experience if you want to participate in discussions about them.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1027
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 12:57:00 -
[288] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:tl;dr - An efficient attacking force should have its forces in position before the attack even begins.
a) expect the unexpected. b) why would I attack something that would be able to outnumber me? if it did outnumbered me, then whoever did my intel needs to be fired. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1027
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 13:00:00 -
[289] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:faster than you can say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"
considering how easy that is to say, I reckon that if it was me, it would take some half hour.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:19:00 -
[290] - Quote
Ruby Porto wrote:1.So... you're suggesting that an alliance should not be able to keep any system they can't keep pegged at server cap 23/7/365. And this is good gameplay... how?
2.So.. you're saying you don't think anyone should be able to mount any defense ever.
3.How do you defend a structure when your proposed game mechanics prevent you from entering the system it's in until it is long dead and the attacking fleet departed?
1.No, YOU are suggesting that. 2.No, I'm not. See your no. 1 for clues. 3.A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from entering the system BEFORE the structure has come under attack. A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from camping likely routes of ingress for the attacking force. A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from camping likely routes of egress for the attacking force. A system cap mechanic does not necessitate that every attacking force be so numerous as to put the target system's population at maximum capacity. A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from retaliating, etc., etc., etc. tl;dr - Use your brain.
Sirane Elrek wrote:"don't drop towers because you can't defend them anyway, and don't live outside of npc stations because you'll get locked out of your stuff faster than you can say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious"
You don't think Goonswarm is capable of defending ANY towers or stations under this scenario? Not even 1?
Malcanis wrote:Reinforcements are an absolutely key component of an extended fight.
In EVE, every structure fight is an extended fight, because of timers, force projection, and to a lesser extent, because of TiDi. See the issue?
Grimpak wrote:b) why would I attack something that would be able to outnumber me?
Because it did NOT outnumber you when you were attacking it. Because you wanted to hurt it more than you cared about it hurting you. Because you were still a greater force, despite being outnumbered. Because you (generally speaking, not you specifically) are a dumbass. I dunno.
Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous. |
|
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
182
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:31:00 -
[291] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You don't think Goonswarm is capable of defending ANY towers or stations under this scenario? Not even 1? yeah we could probably keep two or so stations because we're large enough for around-the-clock coverage but you can count the number of alliances who can field a defense against 250 dreads at all times on one hand. of a blind lumberjack.
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous. funny, you must have missed what happened in fountain two weeks ago wait which of us is the blue donut here, is it us or test |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1296
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:40:00 -
[292] - Quote
what the balls is egress
i'm reporting him for obscene language just in case |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
620
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:43:00 -
[293] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You don't think Goonswarm is capable of defending ANY towers or stations under this scenario? Not even 1? yeah we could probably keep two or so stations because we're large enough for around-the-clock coverage but you can count the number of alliances who can field a defense against 250 dreads at all times on one hand. of a blind lumberjack. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous. funny, you must have missed what happened in fountain two weeks ago wait which of us is the blue donut here, is it us or test
The people supporting the blue donut theory usually also support the TEST = CFC theory. The blue donut attacked the blue donut. It was also aided by other part of the blue donuts who weere helping the blue donut defend against the blue donut. Part of the blue donut was also put under contract by the blue donut.
I'm hungry for some donuts now... |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:46:00 -
[294] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:i may sound like a broken record here, but for some reason you have missed that question a couple of times so i'm just posting it again so you see it
please explain how you're proposing to mount a defense in less than 5 minutes (less than 2 minutes in fact according to RubyPorto, and i have no reason to doubt his numbers)
If you cap the system and create a time dilated environment, it isn't 5 minutes of real time, but much much longer.
(Of course, once any defense jumped in they were on that same time frame, but they could leapfrog the clock in regards to forming up and getting there regardless of if they could save the tower, they might be able to inflict casualties on the attackers and maybe even recoup some loss in the form of wrecks). "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
288
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:53:00 -
[295] - Quote
Time Dilation works well and yes there's the potential of some issues like the OP is describing, there's almost no change that is going to give 100% perfect satisfaction for every given scenario, but the other side... even worse than your "sorry, no kill for you on that titan."
No it doesn't just help the big side but the smaller side too.
Having been in a highsec war with over 600 in system, there was nothing but appreciation for it (one of our uni vs RvB wars) from all parties. Previous to this (say when the uni was under attack in korski) the lag got so bad that many couldn't fight on the un-reinforced node.
So if this is the only downside (ganking a titan by a smaller force), it's something most of those in EVE won't find a problem with vs the alternatives from "elder days" where entire battles were won or lost by who was first to suffer from black screens and huge lag that was harder to deal with than the ships you were facing.
Again, I'm not saying the OP doesn't have a point on an issue but that such an issue is more acceptable than the alternative. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3838
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:57:00 -
[296] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.No, YOU are suggesting that. 2.No, I'm not. See your no. 1 for clues. 3.A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from entering the system BEFORE the structure has come under attack. A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from camping likely routes of ingress for the attacking force. A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from camping likely routes of egress for the attacking force. A system cap mechanic does not necessitate that every attacking force be so numerous as to put the target system's population at maximum capacity. A system cap mechanic does not preclude you from retaliating, etc., etc., etc. tl;dr - Use your brain.
1. You've got me and you mixed up. Under your proposals, the only way to defend a system is by pegging it at server cap 23/7/365. You're proposing those proposals. Ergo... you must feel that that being the only form of defense is good gameplay. 2. You're getting me and you mixed up once more. Under your proposals, mounting any defense is impossible, as you are locked out of the system being attacked for the duration of the attack. You're proposing these proposals. Ergo... you must feel that people being preempted from mounting any sort of defense against an attack in progress is appropriate. 3. So, once again, you're saying that the only defense under your system is to keep it pegged at the server cap. Because a server cap will immediately lead to doctrines based entirely on abusing it.
Know how I know? Because that's what happened before TiDi. Lag did not operate in an entirely unpredictable way back then, so if you tossed enough people into a system before the enemy showed up, you could have grid loaded and be sitting on the in gate ready for a turkey shoot. When they jump in, there's lag, but you could function (Arty functioned best). The people jumping in, on the other hand, got black screens and played the part of the Turkeys. Your suggestion just removes the necessity of actually shooting the turkeys.
Do you seriously think anyone's going to say "Hmm, if I bring X people, I will take this system with no possibility of loss or defeat. NAHHHHHHHH. Let's cap our fleet at some smaller number."
As for camping routes of egress, what does that have to do with defending the system you just lost? Also, BLOPS for bombers, Titans for other subcaps, or a pure capital fleet and you've nothing to camp. I suppose here's where you mention that you want all forms of bridging and jump drives removed.
Quote:In EVE, every structure fight is an extended fight, because of timers, force projection, and to a lesser extent, because of TiDi. See the issue?
Nope. What's the problem with your friends wanting to fight even if they're late to the party?
Quote:Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous.
The only way to hold space under your system is to actually ally yourself with every single group in EVE who has a dread fleet. And your system is supposed to help stop the imagined "blue donut"?
Murk Paradox wrote:Sirane Elrek wrote:i may sound like a broken record here, but for some reason you have missed that question a couple of times so i'm just posting it again so you see it
please explain how you're proposing to mount a defense in less than 5 minutes (less than 2 minutes in fact according to RubyPorto, and i have no reason to doubt his numbers) If you cap the system and create a time dilated environment, it isn't 5 minutes of real time, but much much longer. (Of course, once any defense jumped in they were on that same time frame, but they could leapfrog the clock in regards to forming up and getting there regardless of if they could save the tower, they might be able to inflict casualties on the attackers and maybe even recoup some loss in the form of wrecks).
Mayhaw's whole premise is that his proposed server population cap and no timers would obviate the need for TiDi entirely. And his proposals are what we've been discussing for a few pages now. Murk. The fact that it also obviates the need for defense (because it's impossible) or a coherent attacking fleet composition (because no defender can enter system to attack you) doesn't seem to faze him. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami The Cursed Few
447
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 14:58:00 -
[297] - Quote
It would certainly make your (e-uni) station games in EZA a bit more fun when tidi is involved (Syndicate gets affected by TiDi at times regardless of # of pilots in system) lol. "But my favourite visual experience in Eve was a pipebombing run on a digital projector. Sure, the aliasing can never match the perfection of a 2160p image - but you can't beat a five metre space volcano on your wall." - Lord Maldoror(RnK)
|
BoBoZoBo
Paragon Fury Tactical Narcotics Team
295
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 15:24:00 -
[298] - Quote
Agreed - TiDi is the problem. Not the fact that you attacked a larger and more capable enemy.
Do you think that the removal of TiDi will be the only thing that evens the score between a small corp and a mega alliance with many friends? Primary Test Subject GÇó SmackTalker Elite |
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy Caldari State
107
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 17:06:00 -
[299] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Again, I'm not saying the OP doesn't have a point on an issue but that such an issue is more acceptable than the alternative.
I agree. Time Dilation seems like a much better side effect of overloading a system than just being disconnected in a large fleet fight. But, Time Dilation is not the ONLY alternative.
Ruby Porto wrote:1. You've got me and you mixed up. You're getting me and you mixed up once more. So, once again, you're saying that . . .
2.Do you seriously think anyone's going to say "Hmm, if I bring X people, I will take this system with no possibility of loss or defeat. NAHHHHHHHH. Let's cap our fleet at some smaller number."
3.As for camping routes of egress, what does that have to do with defending the system you just lost? Also, BLOPS for bombers, Titans for other subcaps, or a pure capital fleet and you've nothing to camp. I suppose here's where you mention that you want all forms of bridging and jump drives removed.
4.What's the problem with your friends wanting to fight even if they're late to the party?
5.The only way to hold space under your system is to actually ally yourself with every single group in EVE who has a dread fleet.
1.You are making predictions about a system that has unstable elements and exhibits emergent behaviors, i.e. you are making predictions about a system that is inherently UNpredictable. I am not saying that server cap fleets will be "the standard" or that defense will be impossible. You are predicting that to be the outcome. I disagree with those predictions.
2.Not everyone can field 1000 players, or even 500. Furthermore, why not just have 750 in system, then you could have your turkey shoot AND take the system. Meanwhile, there's a pissed off fleet of 1000 or 750 enemy pilots just sitting at the inbound gates or waiting at a titan somewhere while you ravage their system? Give me a break. If they're smart, they're going to go straight to one of YOUR systems and do the very same thing to you.
3.Firstly, camping routes of egress prevents the enemy fleet from getting out alive. 250 dreadnoughts for the price of a few towers? Deal! Secondly, you and others have spent a lot of time and energy pushing the notion that jump drives != invulnerability. "Jump freighters die all the time.", you would say. But here you are now complaining the exact opposite, because it is convenient to your argument. Well, you can't have it both ways. Which one do you choose?
4.Nothing is wrong with your friends getting to the party late, but your structure should be dead when they get there if the strike is executed efficiently. I don't know why the other side should be punished for being there on time and in force. Again, some noob in his Venture in Unpas doesn't get a chance to call his friends to the party when he's being one-shotted by a Thrasher. He has to act BEFORE hand to mitigate the risk of loss and the loss itself. Why shouldn't some multi-billionaire in null have to do the same?
5.Yet another prediction.
Quote:Sirane Elrek: funny, you must have missed what happened in fountain two weeks ago wait which of us is the blue donut here, is it us or test
Frostys Virpioi: The people supporting the blue donut theory usually also support the TEST = CFC theory. The blue donut attacked the blue donut. It was also aided by other part of the blue donuts who weere helping the blue donut defend against the blue donut. Part of the blue donut was also put under contract by the blue donut.
I'm hungry for some donuts now...
Ruby Porto: And your system is supposed to help stop the imagined "blue donut"?
What?! What "blue donut"? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
The blue donut, you know; the organization that is wiping the second largest, most powerful alliance (Test Alliance Please Ignore) in New Eden completely off the map despite the intervention of quite a few other large, powerful alliances. |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
182
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 19:51:00 -
[300] - Quote
you know in civilized countries a donut looks like a ring, not like a crescent that's why literally everyone in EVE besides yourself is talking about all of sov 0.0 when they're speak of the mythical "blue donut" but don't let that stop you from redefining "blue donut" as "CFC"
(also TEST is the largest alliance if you go by members, and somewhere in the also-ran category if you go by any other metric, but certainly nowhere near "second" or "most powerful") |
|
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
1027
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 20:10:00 -
[301] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Grimpak wrote:b) why would I attack something that would be able to outnumber me? Because it did NOT outnumber you when you were attacking it. Because you wanted to hurt it more than you cared about it hurting you. Because you were still a greater force, despite being outnumbered. Because you (generally speaking, not you specifically) are a dumbass. I dunno. Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous.
well,
Grimpak wrote:a) expect the unexpected.
and I, in no way, alluded to the so-called "blue donut", I alluded to the number one thing that happens in every kind of operation, situation, incident, and/or planned event ever created by humans: Don't **** around with Murphy's law, or it will **** you up. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4080
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:51:00 -
[302] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote: Agreed. However, why would you ever assault a target with less force than was required to neutralize it? Ideally, "attacker reinforcements" is an oxymoron. Why would you attack a hill with 50 dudes if you were pretty sure it was going to take 100 dudes to claim the hill? And, if you used 100 dudes but suddenly it became apparent that it would take 200 dudes to claim the hill, you'd withdraw, because you don't have enough dudes. There is the possibility that you had another 100 dudes available in that case, but then why did you only send 100 dudes to take the hill? Send 200! tl;dr - An efficient attacking force should have its forces in position before the attack even begins.
It's pretty obvious from this that you've never been involved in a 'for real' 0.0 sov war. That is, it was pretty obvious from your other posts but now it's confirmed Reinforcements are an absolutely key component of an extended fight. You see, those guys who lose ships, what do you think they do? Say "well played good sirs" and log off? Or do you think maybe they get in another ship and rejoin the fight? In addition, it is extremely poor strategy to put your high value ships on the field until you're confident that they're going to be reasonably secure. No one fields supercaps into a battlefield without gaining subcap superiority (or at least having good reason to expect to have it). I'm sorry but your conception of how these battles unfold is naive in the extreme. I suggest gaining some actual experience if you want to participate in discussions about them. You're talking to some random idiot on EVEO GD, and you're sorry they don't know anything? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4080
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:52:00 -
[303] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You don't think Goonswarm is capable of defending ANY towers or stations under this scenario? Not even 1? yeah we could probably keep two or so stations because we're large enough for around-the-clock coverage but you can count the number of alliances who can field a defense against 250 dreads at all times on one hand. of a blind lumberjack. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous. funny, you must have missed what happened in fountain two weeks ago wait which of us is the blue donut here, is it us or test I think non-CFC are the blue donut, and they will soon wipe us out. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4080
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:53:00 -
[304] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Sirane Elrek wrote:Mayhaw Morgan wrote:You don't think Goonswarm is capable of defending ANY towers or stations under this scenario? Not even 1? yeah we could probably keep two or so stations because we're large enough for around-the-clock coverage but you can count the number of alliances who can field a defense against 250 dreads at all times on one hand. of a blind lumberjack. Mayhaw Morgan wrote:Your question alludes to why there is a "blue donut". No one successfully attacks the blue donut because the blue donut will always be given the chance to outnumber them, always, guaranteed, 100%, unless some fool doesn't put strontium clathrates in his tower or something ridiculous. funny, you must have missed what happened in fountain two weeks ago wait which of us is the blue donut here, is it us or test The people supporting the blue donut theory usually also support the TEST = CFC theory. The blue donut attacked the blue donut. It was also aided by other part of the blue donuts who weere helping the blue donut defend against the blue donut. Part of the blue donut was also put under contract by the blue donut. I'm hungry for some donuts now... Get a box of donuts. Start eating.
You prefer coffee or tea? There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4080
|
Posted - 2013.08.07 23:55:00 -
[305] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:you know in civilized countries a donut looks like a ring, not like a crescent that's why literally everyone in EVE besides yourself is talking about all of sov 0.0 when they're speak of the mythical "blue donut" but don't let that stop you from redefining "blue donut" as "CFC"
(also TEST is the largest alliance if you go by members, and somewhere in the also-ran category if you go by any other metric, but certainly nowhere near "second" or "most powerful") Just call it a clusterfuck donut then.
You put in on your mouf. There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
3848
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 00:14:00 -
[306] - Quote
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:1.You are making predictions about a system that has unstable elements and exhibits emergent behaviors, i.e. you are making predictions about a system that is inherently UNpredictable. I am not saying that server cap fleets will be "the standard" or that defense will be impossible. You are predicting that to be the outcome. I disagree with those predictions.
As I explained, an effective server cap was in place before TiDi. Fleets were designed to fight in the marginal performance that accompanied filling a system to that cap and letting the enemy jump in.
I'm predicting that to be the outcome because that's exactly what happened last time.
I have evidence to support my predictions.
What's your argument for, and what evidence do you have to support it being different under your system?
Quote:2.Not everyone can field 1000 players, or even 500. Furthermore, why not just have 750 in system, then you could have your turkey shoot AND take the system. Meanwhile, there's a pissed off fleet of 1000 or 750 enemy pilots just sitting at the inbound gates or waiting at a titan somewhere while you ravage their system? Give me a break. If they're smart, they're going to go straight to one of YOUR systems and do the very same thing to you.
First, nobody's waiting at a Titan bridge because the system has been lost before they formed up. Second, why risk a 4 to 1 upset? The current mechanics allow actual fights over structures and systems where everyone involved chooses their proportion of the total fight. Your system results in the attacker choosing everyone else's maximum participation. Third, I won't have any systems because I'll have recognized that they cannot be defended.
Quote:3.Firstly, camping routes of egress prevents the enemy fleet from getting out alive. 250 dreadnoughts for the price of a few towers? Deal! Secondly, you and others have spent a lot of time and energy pushing the notion that jump drives != invulnerability. "Jump freighters die all the time.", you would say. But here you are now complaining the exact opposite, because it is convenient to your argument. Well, you can't have it both ways. Which one do you choose?
Current rules don't allow you to blockade a system by simply entering it. Your proposed rules do. Jump Drives + Server Cap = Invincible power projection unless you get rid of Jump drives and bridges entirely. Currently, a fleet of dreads on the move does have to be somewhat concerned about being dropped (though it's a *lot* of DPS under one roof). Under your proposed system, they don't. Nor do a fleet of Stealth Bombers, a couple BLOPs, and a couple JF fuel trucks, since the server cap renders you invincible.
Quote:4.Nothing is wrong with your friends getting to the party late, but your structure should be dead when they get there if the strike is executed efficiently. I don't know why the other side should be punished for being there on time and in force. Again, some noob in his Venture in Unpas doesn't get a chance to call his friends to the party when he's being one-shotted by a Thrasher. He has to act BEFORE hand to mitigate the risk of loss and the loss itself. Why shouldn't some multi-billionaire in null have to do the same?
5.Yet another prediction.
Under your proposal, the structure is dead no matter how the strike is performed. The analogy is the noob in the Venture getting locked out of his controls when the thrasher lands on grid.
Yes. We can make those. You "predict" that a server cap will not break the game based on (from what I can see) hopes and mescaline, while we predict that Sov warfare participants will abuse new broken game mechanics to their advantage based on the fact that they've done that with every such mechanic that's been introduced.
Quote:What?! What "blue donut"? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
The blue donut, you know; the organization that is wiping the second largest, most powerful alliance (Test Alliance Please Ignore) in New Eden completely off the map despite the intervention of quite a few other large, powerful alliances.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
415
|
Posted - 2013.08.08 00:23:00 -
[307] - Quote
As this thread has gone 'a bit' of topic, evolved into a 'you know noting! No! you know noting' argument which can hardly be considered a good discussion and is deemed not salvageable, it gets a lock.
And did I mention the sometimes blatant personal attacks? Yep, those too.....
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 .. 11 :: [one page] |