| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Tekka
   |
Posted - 2005.12.21 00:32:00 -
[61]
So is not the point of carriers to support other ships? Therefore the Minmatar carrier does it's role better than any of the other three race's carriers?
Boo. |
Jim Steele
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 00:48:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Jim Steele on 21/12/2005 00:49:16
 Originally by: Tekka
So is not the point of carriers to support other ships? Therefore the Minmatar carrier does it's role better than any of the other three race's carriers?
strictly speaking yes but for two seconds quicker repair time id rather take and extra 10% damage/lvl i.e. 50% at carrier 5 which is ******* loads basically!!
Id take the xtra survivability of the amarr one or caldari one over the matari bonus. This is because the minmatar bonus that doesnt really mean much if you are under heavy fire since repairing a bs 2 second quicker wont really help much if your client is lagged like hell and your under heavy fire by dreads, whereas having higher resists will since these are active 100% of the time and odds are you wouldnt even have time in a carrier to lock friendlys and repair them befor they started popping anyway.
Author of "The Apoc Guide" |
Acwron
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 01:13:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:13:35
Cloud anybody of those that want to use a Carrier in a battle explain me it's practical use in a real battle?
Med slot: Any kind of EW can be done tentimes better and cheaper by any other ship.
Highslots (5): One perhaps taken by gangassist. Rest Extra Drone modules. Perhaps one Shield/Armor Repper each.
In any real battle situation the boosting for your mates is definitly not going to happen. It has no use there. Anybody trying this is either going to lose the ship or outnumbered the enemy so heavily that it wasn't necessary in the first place.
Therefore Amarr/Caldari Bonus pointless unless you get caught. Minmatar a bit useful (though having the smallest cap) to boost BS at SP/POS.
The Gallente Bonus is by a huge margin the most useful one.
So could we quit the discussion about taking your Carrier into Combat?
|
Diana Merris
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 01:35:00 -
[64]
Originally by: j0sephine
Edited by: j0sephine on 20/12/2005 22:48:10
"I disagree, as it stands now the Caldari carrier is by far the most survivable solo"
Question is, who is going to let this sort of ship operate solo -.^
"With carrier 4 and a faction Invuln field the Caldari carrier is taking half as much damage as the Minmatar ones."
Well, this is a bit misleading since nothing stops the Minmatar carrier from equipping said invulnerability field as well. Which means the difference in taken damage with equal setups is going to be 20%
(while one extra mid slot on Caldari carrier allows to get a stronger tank overall, the benefits past 3 hardeners are practically none, and both ships can fit that many hardeners... so difference in amount of taken damage is effectively decided by Caldari carrier bonus alone)
Come on j0, you know better than that. No EM or Thermal hardeners? The ships aren't just going to have 2 or 3 invulnerability fields when you have 7 slots available.
Minmatar: 2x SB, EM, Therm, 2x Inv
Caldari: 2x SB, EM, Therm, Kin + 2x Inv or 3x Inv + ship bonus
The third Inv would have a heavy stacking penalty on EM and Threm but would have good effect on Kin and Exp. The Caldari carriers will have much better tanks than the minmatar ones so even with them remote boosting each other the faster cycle on the minmatar carriers will not make up the difference.
Also, I didn't address the Gal. carrier bonus last time so lets look at the wording on that. It says "deployed" fighters. Is that all fighters, local and remote? Fighters handed off to other pilots? Fighters not handed off to other pilots? If the bonus only applies to fighters controlled by the carrier itself it may not be too much. The Gal carrier has the weakest tank and would have to be in combat to use the bonus.
|
Kcel Chim
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 01:43:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Acwron
Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:13:35
Cloud anybody of those that want to use a Carrier in a battle explain me it's practical use in a real battle?
Med slot: Any kind of EW can be done tentimes better and cheaper by any other ship.
Highslots (5): One perhaps taken by gangassist. Rest Extra Drone modules. Perhaps one Shield/Armor Repper each.
In any real battle situation the boosting for your mates is definitly not going to happen. It has no use there. Anybody trying this is either going to lose the ship or outnumbered the enemy so heavily that it wasn't necessary in the first place.
Therefore Amarr/Caldari Bonus pointless unless you get caught. Minmatar a bit useful (though having the smallest cap) to boost BS at SP/POS.
The Gallente Bonus is by a huge margin the most useful one.
So could we quit the discussion about taking your Carrier into Combat?
how do you come to that conclusion after making such a post ?
if remote reparing in battle is totally useless (as you stated, and i pointed out earlier) how does the minmatar get on the "usefull" spot then ?
If im not in the frontline and can repair away at a SS or Pos i dont think the 2-5 seconds extra time will really make ANY difference or could you tell me where it matters ?
As for the carriers use, i doubt they will be safespotted all the time, why would anyone want to fly a ship and miss the whole fight ? I could do that in a logistic ship. So lets assume by default if its not an alt its in the battle ;)
|
Acwron
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 01:55:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:56:05
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Originally by: Acwron
Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:13:35
Cloud anybody of those that want to use a Carrier in a battle explain me it's practical use in a real battle?
Med slot: Any kind of EW can be done tentimes better and cheaper by any other ship.
Highslots (5): One perhaps taken by gangassist. Rest Extra Drone modules. Perhaps one Shield/Armor Repper each.
In any real battle situation the boosting for your mates is definitly not going to happen. It has no use there. Anybody trying this is either going to lose the ship or outnumbered the enemy so heavily that it wasn't necessary in the first place.
Therefore Amarr/Caldari Bonus pointless unless you get caught. Minmatar a bit useful (though having the smallest cap) to boost BS at SP/POS.
The Gallente Bonus is by a huge margin the most useful one.
So could we quit the discussion about taking your Carrier into Combat?
how do you come to that conclusion after making such a post ?
if remote reparing in battle is totally useless (as you stated, and i pointed out earlier) how does the minmatar get on the "usefull" spot then ?
If im not in the frontline and can repair away at a SS or Pos i dont think the 2-5 seconds extra time will really make ANY difference or could you tell me where it matters ?
As for the carriers use, i doubt they will be safespotted all the time, why would anyone want to fly a ship and miss the whole fight ? I could do that in a logistic ship. So lets assume by default if its not an alt its in the battle ;)
Well what does a Carrier in a battle contribute?
PS: about the minmatar bonus. At least it has some use (though hardly any) in comparision to the Amarr/Caldari one when being on a SP/POS.
|
Kcel Chim
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 02:00:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 21/12/2005 02:01:22
direct fightersupport, tanking (you know soaking up fire from newbs who wanna kill a capital and ignore their bses getting popped 1 by 1), fast shipreplacements suicide rifters ftw and last but not least 3 gangmods.
And last but not least the omnipresent moral boost. Would you like to have your "king" tucked away in some deep SS or rather directly with you ?
There is not a single reason a carrier with a good tank shouldnt be in a battle (one which is remotely realistical and winable) afterall its a combat ship. I hate ppl who buy so called "battleships" but never take them out for a ride. Worst case is you lose it.
edit: to your edit, you do actually know that to "repair" a dread in a pos siege the carrier has to substain itself under the randomly switching gunturrets of the pos aswell? So a solid 20% better tank is more worth then a 2s faster boosting rate
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 02:05:00 -
[68]
"Come on j0, you know better than that. No EM or Thermal hardeners? The ships aren't just going to have 2 or 3 invulnerability fields when you have 7 slots available."
Think i wasn't clear enough, there ^^ when i said "the benefits past 3 hardeners are practically none, and both ships can fit that many hardeners", i meant 3 hardeners stacked on single resistance type, not 3 hardeners total ^^;;
More specifically... what i meant is, provided a carrier is given to become primary target (as long as it's actually scanned down in the first place) ... you can pretty much expect it'll have to face large number of ships firing at it. With this kind of environment, the important part becomes reduction of incoming damage, for long enough to either kill what's trying to kill you or to free yourself and run. You just won't repair on your own anything near enough to withstand the incoming fire (even dreadnaughts fall to that, and each of their repairers is worth 4 in siege mode... and then there's motherships but that's another kettle of fish best left alone for now)
So basically, i'd expect the 'shield tank' on carrier to be hardener-heavy than booster-heavy. Now note, you can fit em + therm + kin hardener + 2x invul.fields on both Minmatar and Caldari carrier. Then you can put the capital booster on both of them. Then you're finally left with one free slot on Caldari ship. She can put another hardener in that slot, but because it'll be 4th hardener for any resistance but explosive, the gain in resistance values is going to be small -- something along 2-4% resistances extra, top. So more likely there's going to be another module put there. Something that improves the overall tanking ability but what doesn't actually affect the shield resistances. Meaning, the difference in resistances becomes pretty much limited to resistance bonus on Caldari ship. Because other than that, both ships pack equally as many hardeners.
Hope it makes sense now ^^;;
|
Acwron
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 02:15:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kcel Chim
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 21/12/2005 02:01:22
direct fightersupport, tanking (you know soaking up fire from newbs who wanna kill a capital and ignore their bses getting popped 1 by 1), fast shipreplacements suicide rifters ftw and last but not least 3 gangmods.
And last but not least the omnipresent moral boost. Would you like to have your "king" tucked away in some deep SS or rather directly with you ?
- Soaking up Damage:
about 60k Armor/Shield with skills per Carrier. j0s said something along the lines of 800 dps tanking.
So let's say 15 damage BS (about 500 dps/250 after resis) shoot the Carrier. So about 12 BS actually do damage. 12*250=3k dps. 60k/3k= 20 seconds.
Once a decent amount of BS actually lock the Carrier it's toast in no time. Even if you triple the time needed you know a minute means under worst conditions about 4 lost BS.
The fighter Support itself can be done way better by directing them to tackling frigs. (faster lock, know when target is scrambelt, about 5 fighters = the damage of a close range BS)
Gang assit can aswell be done from a SP/POS.
Ship replacement at the Carrier in the Battlefield:
bad idea. sitting with a pod next to the carrier. drag out ship to assemble, fit ship. Considering lag it's all done way better at a SP/POS
Originally by: Kcel Chim
There is not a single reason a carrier with a good tank shouldnt be in a battle (one which is remotely realistical and winable) afterall its a combat ship. I hate ppl who buy so called "battleships" but never take them out for a ride. Worst case is you lose it.
edit: to your edit, you do actually know that to "repair" a dread in a pos siege the carrier has to substain itself under the randomly switching gunturrets of the pos aswell? So a solid 20% better tank is more worth then a 2s faster boosting rate
Well I didn't think somebody would use his Carrier to boost Dreads at a POS :)
|
Kcel Chim
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 02:25:00 -
[70]
your numbers are wrong, a carrier has more then 50% resistances to all if its semi tanked and it can repair some dmg aswell.
however i agree a carrier is somewhat of a toy atm. This doesnt make the argument less important to point out that 3 of 4 ships have actually a "good" bonus while 1 gets the duct tape bonus again. "doh couldnt think of something lets say it makes ummmm, yea it repairs faster ftw!"
|
|
|
Acwron
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 02:36:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 02:44:18
Originally by: Kcel Chim
your numbers are wrong, a carrier has more then 50% resistances to all if its semi tanked and it can repair some dmg aswell.
however i agree a carrier is somewhat of a toy atm. This doesnt make the argument less important to point out that 3 of 4 ships have actually a "good" bonus while 1 gets the duct tape bonus again. "doh couldnt think of something lets say it makes ummmm, yea it repairs faster ftw!"
Actually I did factor in the tanking and resis if you would look at the post again :)
Though of course the numbers are just estamits and a bit off. Just to give an idea about what kind of tanking time we are talking about.
PS: I don't think that Carriers are toys. I think they rule big time. The ability to tie the damage output of 3-4 Closerange BS to a tackler rules :) but taking them into a battle is just plain stupid.
|
Kcel Chim
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 02:51:00 -
[72]
2 reasons why they wont "pwn" imo.
1) its already hard enough to get a fight so ppl wont engage knowing a carrier or 2 are around if its hairy
2) an enemy who is on its toes and has his own support at bay will make short work of drones or simply jam them with the new ewar drones.
I fear them more then i fear the carriers tbh, if will make tackling impossible if u lockup and have immideately 5 medium or small jamming drones going after you (or more if the fleet actually works together)
|
Rigsta
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 03:51:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Rigsta on 21/12/2005 03:54:49
Originally by: Friar Vigfus
Ah balance talks about ship's that have never been flown on the test server much less even started producing yet on TQ.
Glad to see Ships and Modules forum is still full of monkeys.
Logged in to test any time in the month before RMR release?
Titan
Carrier
Fighter
Kcel: Dunno if it's the same on TQ, but as you can see there, that bad boy had 25 fighter drones flying around, and those things we eating battleships left right and centre. Apparantly they have trouble tracking frigates but I didn't get chance to test that as the battleship pilots though that shooting my Tristan instead of the drones that were attacking then would be a marvellous idea :P
-----------------------------------------------
My Ideas:
Drones wish list <-- 2 years old. I always knew the voice w |
Foomanshoe
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 04:07:00 -
[74]
Uh, The best defense is still a good offense
Pods cant hurt you after all, and if you crunch the numbers the gal mothership can kill a BS in a matter of seconds.
_______________________________________________
Originally by: Oveur
To the nerfmobile!
|
Trelennen
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 07:53:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Trelennen on 21/12/2005 07:55:01
Originally by: Bagdh Dearg
Look Im no fan of Drones but in all honesty,Its a DRONE Carrier. I have no trouble with the Galls getting a better bonus.
Well, let's follow this logic. Then we have DRONE Carriers, with gallente being 50% more effective in the main caracterics of the ship, drones. We have Stealth Bombers, with caldari being 50% more effective in the main caracteristics of the ship, missiles launchers (3 where others have 2). So, why minmatar intys don't have 50% more speed and intercepting ability than the other intys?
These are a class of ship, and there should not be any of those much better than all of the others at what makes the class, in this case, drones (fighters). That's by the way the reason why SB will be looked at in the post RMR rebalance, so devs said, as manticore should not be much better at bombing than the other three just because caldari is the missile weapon, just like gallente carriers should not be much better with drones than the other three just because gallente are the drone race.
PS: someone said that with these bonus, minmatar carrier will be better in static fight with lock already acquired on frien BSs, and bad at mobile fights. Aren't the minmatar supposed to be the king of skirmish? Isn't skirmish a hit and run tactic, hence very mobile? How could a ship that would absolutely not fit with minmatar philosophy be a minmatar ship?
Originally by: DarK
The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
|
Testy Mctest
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 08:23:00 -
[76]
Personally....I wouldnt be taking a carrier into combat. Battle repping is not that effective anyway due to the speed at which ships go down - and due to carrier lock time added to this, the best you could do is guess at a primary target, and thats *assuming* the primary target wasn't you.
Carriers should be sitting in a safespot (or warping between multiple safespots, ideally) for people to run to when they need repairs or cap transfer.
So sure, if an Amarr or Caldari carrier is caught in combat then it's going to be better off. But if you're doing your job properly*, then the Minmatar is the better of the three.
Of course, the Gallente one is just totally superior by virtue of that bonus being HUGE :)
*disclaimer: this represents my opinion, and although I think it's right, I understand that it may be arguable :P
Loading sig, please wait... |
Diana Merris
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 13:49:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Trelennen
PS: someone said that with these bonus, minmatar carrier will be better in static fight with lock already acquired on frien BSs, and bad at mobile fights. Aren't the minmatar supposed to be the king of skirmish? Isn't skirmish a hit and run tactic, hence very mobile? How could a ship that would absolutely not fit with minmatar philosophy be a minmatar ship?
That was me and I agree it goes against Minmatar combat style.
Running 2 boosters would not be sustainable even with the huge cap regen on a carrier but would still last quite a while. While both are running thats a 100% increase in tanking ability; to get an equal benifit out of a hardener it would need to be 50% to all resists with no stacking penalty. Carriers have over 40k cap with skills and a capital booster uses less than 200cap/sec with skills. Factor in cap regen and you can run 2 boosters for over 2 minutes. If there's a fleet shooting you you'll be dead before you run out of cap but if there are less than 10 ships you can tank them and kill them. The setup I posted gives 1280 hp/sec with avg 75% resist allowing you to tank over 5k dmg/sec.
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 16:04:00 -
[78]
"Running 2 boosters would not be sustainable even with the huge cap regen on a carrier but would still last quite a while. While both are running thats a 100% increase in tanking ability; to get an equal benifit out of a hardener it would need to be 50% to all resists with no stacking penalty."
Oi, no? ^^;
second shield booster does increase repaired amount by 100% but in raw numbers this is 640 hp/sec extra. This means, extra hardening can outweight that (or not) much quicker than 50% resisitance increase... depending on amount of firepower coming your way.
e.g with resistance of 60% single capital hardener can keep up with 1600 hp/sec of damage. This amount changes to 2245 hp/sec (i.e. 645 hp/sec extra, i.e. another capital hardener) if resistance goes up to 71.5% which is roughly equivalent of fitting tech.2 invul.field with stacking penalty.
The effect is easier to spot the more ships is shooting you... with 10 k dmg/sec (i.e. 10-15 ships firing) you get the capital booster worth of soaked damage by increasing the resistance just by 6.4% Obviously with that many ships firing at you the carrier is going to melt extremely fast no matter what, but the soaked damage might buy couple more secs needed to run o.O;
|
Acwron
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 16:11:00 -
[79]
Actually I would fit something totally different in my med and lows. Not a tank. (perhaps a small one (repper, 1-2 hardener))
|
Masu'di
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 17:33:00 -
[80]
if the Gallente deserve the best carrier for being the best drone race, then logically the Minmatar would have the second best carrier, as they are the second best with drones.. |
|
|
Diana Merris
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 18:31:00 -
[81]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Running 2 boosters would not be sustainable even with the huge cap regen on a carrier but would still last quite a while. While both are running thats a 100% increase in tanking ability; to get an equal benifit out of a hardener it would need to be 50% to all resists with no stacking penalty."
Oi, no? ^^;
second shield booster does increase repaired amount by 100% but in raw numbers this is 640 hp/sec extra. This means, extra hardening can outweight that (or not) much quicker than 50% resisitance increase... depending on amount of firepower coming your way.
e.g with resistance of 60% single capital hardener can keep up with 1600 hp/sec of damage. This amount changes to 2245 hp/sec (i.e. 645 hp/sec extra, i.e. another capital hardener) if resistance goes up to 71.5% which is roughly equivalent of fitting tech.2 invul.field with stacking penalty.
The effect is easier to spot the more ships is shooting you... with 10 k dmg/sec (i.e. 10-15 ships firing) you get the capital booster worth of soaked damage by increasing the resistance just by 6.4% Obviously with that many ships firing at you the carrier is going to melt extremely fast no matter what, but the soaked damage might buy couple more secs needed to run o.O;
Except of course that we already have 3 hardeners per resist going and the 4th would be massively nerfed by the stacking penalty; 27% of 30% = 8.1% times 10k = 800dps whereas the second booster on the existing resists is giving 3 times that. Adding the first invuln. to a single resist was not what we were talking about before! Of course 1 invuln is good and even a second is which is why I used them in the setup I posted.
|
Diana Merris
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 18:39:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Masu'di
if the Gallente deserve the best carrier for being the best drone race, then logically the Minmatar would have the second best carrier, as they are the second best with drones..
Well, it does have the second largest drone bay. The Gal. carrier can hold 20 fighters and the Min. one can hold 18 while the Cal. and Amarr hold 16. If you were operating them in pairs you could store extras in the corp hangers as well so it doesn't make that much of a difference unless you are solo.
If it were me I would also leave out one fighter and use the space for hundreds of heavy and medium drones, especilaly EW and web drones. Lots of sentry drones if you are planning on camping somewhere.
|
ImmortaL ZoorZ
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 18:41:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =(
lol made me laugh
|
Mordis
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 18:54:00 -
[84]
ok. I understand that carriers have uber fighters, and that people will want to use as many of them as possible.
What i dont understand, is what bout the capital guns, why not fit some of them on there. surly they would lay a hurting down on a battleship?
Now alot ofyou are saying carrier, but i get the feeling your only talking bout the mothership, which is going to have inexcess of 60k sheilds/armor, But i see no mention of the smaller. less expensive carriers, Who will have at max maybe 30k-40k sheilds/armor at most, what role will those play in combat?
But. my primary question is, why not use capital guns?
|
fmercury
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 19:02:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Face Lifter
I'd agree that Gallente carrier is the best and Minmatar one is the worst.
But do I think CCP should fix this? No.
I believe in the idea of faction strengths and weaknesses. I don't want every faction to have near-identical ships. Why have different factions then?
If one ship is so much better than the others, the end result will be that no-one uses the other faction's carriers. CCP might as well have just made the Gallente and not wasted their time with modeling and skinning the others.
|
Arleonenis
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 21:14:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Mordis
ok. I understand that carriers have uber fighters, and that people will want to use as many of them as possible.
What i dont understand, is what bout the capital guns, why not fit some of them on there. surly they would lay a hurting down on a battleship?
Now alot ofyou are saying carrier, but i get the feeling your only talking bout the mothership, which is going to have inexcess of 60k sheilds/armor, But i see no mention of the smaller. less expensive carriers, Who will have at max maybe 30k-40k sheilds/armor at most, what role will those play in combat?
But. my primary question is, why not use capital guns?
BECOUSE CARRIERS AND MOTHERSHIPS DONT HAVE TURRET HARDPOINTS AND MISSLE BAYS???
Why you post if you have no idea about ship you write?
|
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.12.21 21:45:00 -
[87]
they should probably lower the drone bonus on the gallente ones to 5%/lvl i guess
------
Campaign to remove shield hardener effects, they suck!! |
Scalor Valentis
|
Posted - 2005.12.22 11:51:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 22/12/2005 11:52:21
Ahem
I and prolly many others whuld like someone wiser than us (developer?) to state his thots on this, please?
I dont want to start training minmatar carrier if its going to be 700m ornamental piece of my hangar.
It cost isk and take time to train carriers, so shuld i rather sacrifice 29 days on Galentte BS lvl 5? and save me lots of trouble whining on forums of how badly minmatars suck?
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |