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CCP: Carrier bonuses are not balanced

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Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:08:00 - [1] Amarr Carrier 5% Armor resist per level Caldari Carrier 5% Shield resist per level Gallente Carrier 10% Fighter damage per level Minmatar Carrier 5% Remote Repair / Xfer duration per level Ok first off why excactly does Gallente get 10% damage when Caldari and Ammar get 5% resist. Gallente fighter bonus needs to be decreased to 5% to maintain balance. And Minmatar is the gimpiest one? WTF Give it a fighter speed bonus or something, not a lame ass duration bonus. Using those remote modules on a battleship you are going to do at the most two pulses. So level 4 Gallente carrier does 40% more damage with its fighters while Minmatar sends two cycles of armor to a battle ship 2 seconds faster? That is total bull**** CCP
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:08:00 - [2] Amarr Carrier 5% Armor resist per level Caldari Carrier 5% Shield resist per level Gallente Carrier 10% Fighter damage per level Minmatar Carrier 5% Remote Repair / Xfer duration per level Ok first off why excactly does Gallente get 10% damage when Caldari and Ammar get 5% resist. Gallente fighter bonus needs to be decreased to 5% to maintain balance. And Minmatar is the gimpiest one? WTF Give it a fighter speed bonus or something, not a lame ass duration bonus. Using those remote modules on a battleship you are going to do at the most two pulses. So level 4 Gallente carrier does 40% more damage with its fighters while Minmatar sends two cycles of armor to a battle ship 2 seconds faster? That is total bull**** CCP
F'nog	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:10:00 - [3] To answer the first part, Gallente are drone specialists, so it makes sense. But I don't really know how anyone can complain about carriers until they are actually built and used. Until then, I think everyone needs to hold their breaths and wait and see. Originally by: rowbin hod Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage.
F'nog	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:10:00 - [4] To answer the first part, Gallente are drone specialists, so it makes sense. But I don't really know how anyone can complain about carriers until they are actually built and used. Until then, I think everyone needs to hold their breaths and wait and see. EVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:16:00 - [5] Edited by: j0sephine on 19/12/2005 07:16:23 "To answer the first part, Gallente are drone specialists, so it makes sense." Well, the part that doesn't make much sense is, Gallente get bonus which is equivalent of two drone damage mods, while others get bonus that is comparable to mounting single invulnerability field/adaptive nano. (save for Minmatar ships which get quite unique bonus there) ... so basically the Gallente are given kind of one more slot than anyone else for no apparent reason, and their bonus should possibly be reduced to something like 5-7.5% of extra damage per level..? o.O;
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:24:00 - [6] WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =( ------ Campaign to remove shield hardener effects, they suck!!
Ante	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:37:00 - [7] Originally by: Jim Raynor WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =( More to a stealth bomber than the number of launchers?
Techyon	Posted - 2005.12.19 07:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Ante Originally by: Jim Raynor WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =( More to a stealth bomber than the number of launchers? More to a carrier than the amount of dmg the fighters do ? ------
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.12.19 08:41:00 - [9] I'd agree that Gallente carrier is the best and Minmatar one is the worst. But do I think CCP should fix this? No. I believe in the idea of faction strengths and weaknesses. I don't want every faction to have near-identical ships. Why have different factions then? You already have the ability to cross-train for different faction ships. There is nothing stopping you, or discouraging you, from choosing something you want to specialize in and training for that - regardless of which faction your character has started from. Gallente are the main drone faction by rp reasons. It's only logical that if we are to have strengths and weaknesses system, Gallente carrier should be its strength. You think Minmatar carrier is crap? don't train to fly one! nobody is forcing you to fly it. And don't make selfish arguments like "but I already have most of the prerequisites to fly Minmatar carrier! I want it to be uber cause it'll take me longer to train for Gallente one". - No, that's selfish, shut up, don't try to ruin the game by making everything the same, just so you could have it easy.
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.19 08:47:00 - [10] Originally by: F'nog To answer the first part, Gallente are drone specialists, so it makes sense. But I don't really know how anyone can complain about carriers until they are actually built and used. Until then, I think everyone needs to hold their breaths and wait and see. Yes we all know that Gallente are drone specialists. But 10% per level is over the top. It needs to be reduced to 5% to be inline with Caldari and Amarr. And the Matari one needs changed all together.

Aion Amarra	Posted - 2005.12.19 08:51:00 - [11] The problem is not that the Gallente are best with drones. I wouldn't mind a 5% damage bonus (which, compared to the bonuses on ALL non capital ships, equals one resist bonus), but a 10% damage bonus is overpowered (as it equals two normal ship bonuses). Besides, that puny 'little' gallente bonus (which applies to BOTH carriers AND motherships) creates a difference of about 800-1000dps for the carriers and more than twice as much for the motherships. Who needs resists when you can pwn BS' as fast as you can lock them?
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.12.19 08:53:00 - [12] I wouldn't mind if damage bonus was reduced to 5%. I think that's reasonable.
Grimwalius d'Antan	Posted - 2005.12.19 08:59:00 - [13] Very well then, why not reduce the optimal range bonuses for caldari rail ships from 10% optimal to 5% optimal, because the percentage is obviously the only way to balance the game Make every bonus percentage the same in the game, and everything is balanced, right?
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.12.19 09:19:00 - [14] Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan Very well then, why not reduce the optimal range bonuses for caldari rail ships from 10% optimal to 5% optimal, because the percentage is obviously the only way to balance the game Make every bonus percentage the same in the game, and everything is balanced, right? I doubt you seriously believe that 5% more damage is about as powerful as 5% more range. Your comment doesn't add anything of value to this discussion
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.12.19 09:24:00 - [15] that 10% extra damage equates to another 1000 DPS when fielding 10 fighters!! That to me is very unbalanced making it the only carrier worth flying imho. So i agree 5% per level would make it more in line with the others. As for the matari one, well, i never liked matari ships Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Grimwalius d'Antan Very well then, why not reduce the optimal range bonuses for caldari rail ships from 10% optimal to 5% optimal, because the percentage is obviously the only way to balance the game Make every bonus percentage the same in the game, and everything is balanced, right? Grimwalius the point you are trying to make is understood. But you are comparing apples and oranges. See Jim Steele's post above.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:19:00 - [17] Originally by: Jim Steele that 10% extra damage equates to another 1000 DPS when fielding 10 fighters!! That to me is very unbalanced making it the only carrier worth flying imho. So i agree 5% per level would make it more in line with the others. As for the matari one, well, i never liked matari ships Manticore does 50% more dmg than nemesis. HatePeace LoveWar[ATUK] > they ebayed the bs for grain
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:26:00 - [18] Originally by: LUKEC Manticore does 50% more dmg than nemesis. This thread has nothing to do with stealth bombers Oveur has already said the manticore would be balanced, as will carriers im sure.. Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Friar Vigfus	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:33:00 - [19] Ah balance talks about ship's that have never been flown on the test server much less even started producing yet on TQ. Glad to see Ships and Modules forum is still full of monkeys.
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:37:00 - [20] Originally by: Jim Steele that 10% extra damage equates to another 1000 DPS when fielding 10 fighters!! That to me is very unbalanced making it the only carrier worth flying imho. So i agree 5% per level would make it more in line with the others. As for the matari one, well, i never liked matari ships Well though I agree that the gallente one is the best. The Minmatar one is the 2nd best because if you use your Carrier in Combat (as read in Armor/Shield Bonus) you have already done something wrong. But still the gallente Bonus is way better than the other ones. Gallente: best damage Minmatar: 2nd best dmg (check drone bay size), a little bit better at Safespot support Caldari/Amarr: for people how didn't get the purpose of carriers or are too incompetent to keep them safe.

Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:38:00 - [21] Originally by: Face Lifter I'd agree that Gallente carrier is the best and Minmatar one is the worst. But do I think CCP should fix this? No. I believe in the idea of faction strengths and weaknesses. I don't want every faction to have near-identical ships. Why have different factions then? You already have the ability to cross-train for different faction ships. There is nothing stopping you, or discouraging you, from choosing something you want to specialize in and training for that - regardless of which faction your character has started from. Gallente are the main drone faction by rp reasons. It's only logical that if we are to have strengths and weaknesses system, Gallente carrier should be its strength. You think Minmatar carrier is crap? don't train to fly one! nobody is forcing you to fly it. And don't make selfish arguments like "but I already have most of the prerequisites to fly Minmatar carrier! I want it to be uber cause it'll take me longer to train for Gallente one". - No, that's selfish, shut up, don't try to ruin the game by making everything the same, just so you could have it easy. imho don't belive the minmatar carrier is the worst. From a deep strike behind the enemy lines, the minmatar one can excel with it's remote repairing bonuses, plus it has the second largest drone bay. It also looks damn cool ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:42:00 - [22] Originally by: Acwron Well though I agree that the gallente one is the best. The Minmatar one is the 2nd best because if you use your Carrier in Combat (as read in Armor/Shield Bonus) you have already done something wrong. Not nessisarily, there is always the option of using two or three and healing each other.. Also think their bonuses would make them stand up to dread fire more easily. Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.12.19 10:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Jim Steele Originally by: Acwron Well though I agree that the gallente one is the best. The Minmatar one is the 2nd best because if you use your Carrier in Combat (as read in Armor/Shield Bonus) you have already done something wrong. Not nessisarily, there is always the option of using two or three and healing each other.. Also think their bonuses would make them stand up to dread fire more easily. someone understands me aswell ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.19 22:32:00 - [24] Originally by: Friar Vigfus Ah balance talks about ship's that have never been flown on the test server much less even started producing yet on TQ. Glad to see Ships and Modules forum is still full of monkeys. Thank you for your constructive comments and participation in this discussion. Monkey boy.
aeti	Posted - 2005.12.19 22:43:00 - [25] you do realise how insanely well the amarr, and especially the caldari one will be able to tank? :p minmatar one could do with some more, possibly a cap reduction as well
Rexy	Posted - 2005.12.19 22:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Friar Vigfus Ah balance talks about ship's that have never been flown on the test server much less even started producing yet on TQ. Glad to see Ships and Modules forum is still full of monkeys. lets ditch the trolls and the monkeys m'kay, the stats are on TQ , doesnt really matter if people can fly em or not. what is kinda obvious that the minny one has a useless bonus, sure it can boost other ships shield/armor a bit better then the others can, but with 5/6 highs seriously, how much boosting do you want. it's nice to rep ships at a safespot, but a 5% reduction is hardly going to make a difference there. to the earlier poster about every faction having it's strenght, true enough, i dont want a 10% damage bonus on all ships, but i do want something more usefull, wich gives each carrier it's pro and cons, right now i only see cons. and a higher pricetag then other carriers
Rawthorm	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:05:00 - [27] Oh get over it. You build what one suits you. If you want to attack with ur carrier you use the gallante one. You want to play it safe you build the caldari or Amarr ones. You want to maximise your abiliy as a team player you use the Minmatar one. Each has its far superiour use and the sooner people like the topic starter stop trying to get us flying identical grey boxes the better...
Lodovik Trema	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:08:00 - [28] Come on gallente are so nerfed by their weapns that use both ammo and cap that one ship thats good wont make the difference
Grut	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:31:00 - [29] Originally by: F'nog To answer the first part, Gallente are drone specialists, so it makes sense. But I don't really know how anyone can complain about carriers until they are actually built and used. Until then, I think everyone needs to hold their breaths and wait and see. Read the back story again gallente are drone specialists Caldari are fighter specialists so make the caldari carrier uber plz ccp Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought
SengH	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:36:00 - [30] what about a 5% increase to drone speed and -2% to drone sig radius per level? Would that not make sense with the usual matari bonuses?

Arti K	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:40:00 - [31] The minmatar carrier bonus really just isn't a bonus. Ships that tank for other ships don't work (see how many logistics ships you see in combat). The other carriers completely outclass the minmatar one. Originally by: Skzcaptain 0.0 is a huge dueling zone.
Arti K	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:40:00 - [32] Originally by: SengH what about a 5% increase to drone speed and -2% to drone sig radius per level? Would that not make sense with the usual matari bonuses? It's already been noted on several threads that the drone velocity skill makes it so drones miss their shots in orbit, adding another bonus that does exactly that wouldn't help anything. Originally by: Skzcaptain 0.0 is a huge dueling zone.
Rawthorm	Posted - 2005.12.19 23:51:00 - [33] Originally by: Arti K The minmatar carrier bonus really just isn't a bonus. Ships that tank for other ships don't work (see how many logistics ships you see in combat). The other carriers completely outclass the minmatar one. Well thats a personal choice, not CCP's problem Carriers are ment to be support vessel and in this the minmatar one is top.
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.20 00:03:00 - [34] Originally by: Arti K Originally by: SengH what about a 5% increase to drone speed and -2% to drone sig radius per level? Would that not make sense with the usual matari bonuses? It's already been noted on several threads that the drone velocity skill makes it so drones miss their shots in orbit, adding another bonus that does exactly that wouldn't help anything. Another possibility could be speed + range then maybe, or range + sig radius . Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Anstarius'as'kal'thoras	Posted - 2005.12.20 00:29:00 - [35] Edited by: Anstarius''as''kal''thoras on 20/12/2005 00:30:45 did u ever actually bother comparing the other captial ships ? there is always 1 race which is the gimpiest for the most uber most exspensive ship.... Ask yourself why a dread pilot for minmatar needs to have torp 5 and large projectile 5 to fit all his highs (or even 3) with guns / launchers while the amarrian one only needs 1 large weapon skill, the galleante aswell (as drones are mostly developed anyways on gal. while no minmatar has torp 5) and the caldari basically also goes through with just 1 weaponskill high up. Imbalance ahoy. Or is that the highly prisen "diversity". Speak of making a race completely unattractive and slap all those in the face who actually bothered training up. btw if i actually read the old sisi stats right those monsters have quiet some locktime so "in combat repairs" wont be their strong side, unless u know who will be maintarget before the enemy actually calls it ;)
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.12.20 02:11:00 - [36] If a pair of Minmatar carriers get jumped, with fleet support or not, they will be called primary. The Gallante carrier is the most deadly. The Minmatar carriers, if used correctly and in a pair, are by far the most survivable.
Surfie	Posted - 2005.12.20 02:44:00 - [37] Ummm, you realise that the devs actually sit down and do the maths and work out what's balanced and what's not? I somewhat doubt they have conversations like this: Dev1: Mmmmm we should probably make minmatar the worst carrier. Dev2: GALLENTE FTW! Dev1: Aye - we'll make the Gallente one the uber-est - because we can. Dev2: Too right! Then the minions will complain at the forum!
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.12.20 02:52:00 - [38] "Ummm, you realise that the devs actually sit down and do the maths and work out what's balanced and what's not?" There's plenty things which can get overlooked in this process, or simply don't show up until you throw enough proverbial monkeys with typewriters to try all possible, even weirdest combinations. Only need to check patch notes for tweaks and adjustment done to various modules over time, to see it's nothing unsual. ^^
Vishnej	Posted - 2005.12.20 03:35:00 - [39] Edited by: Vishnej on 20/12/2005 03:36:31 I propose that if all the bonus types are staying the same, the others get their bonus changed to -7.5%. An inverse bonus of 7.5 is very close to a positive bonus of 10% - slightly more effective at higher levels, but I'd wager you won't see many with carrier 5 trained for quite a while :) ---------------------------- T2 Destroyers: a proposal Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.20 09:20:00 - [40] To all the people talking up the Minmatar bonus. Talking about repairing eachother, etc. That is not unique to the Minmatar Carriers - ALL 4 of the carriers can do that. Only the Minmtar one does it slightly faster. Big deal. Have you looked at the Captial shield xfer arrays? They do 2000 shield base per pulse. If you are safespotted and a BS warps to you for a boost, you are gonna hit him with 1 maybe 2 pulses, thats it. And remember - all carriers can do this. Only the Minmatar one does its second pulse in ~~8 seconds instead of ~~10 seconds like the other carriers. This is not a respectable bonus, and it does not set it apart from the other carriers at all. Many of you are speaking as if the Minmatar carrier is the only one that can repair. All of them can. To the guy above with his comment about grey boxes. No, I don't want all ships to be identical. But you are blind if you cannot see that one carrier doing 50% more damage then the others (wich results in 1000+ dps btw) is not balanced when compared to one that transfers shield and armor 2 fking seconds faster then the rest.

Noriath	Posted - 2005.12.20 09:27:00 - [41] Well, sicne Carriers will acctually be able to mount the drone controll mods, however, those take up all 5 highslots on a carrier if you fit one for drones it's no longer able to repair ships or energy boost them or whatever... To me it looks like the Gallente carrier is just meant as a pure drone carrier that's not really supposed to have the same fleet support functions of the others.
Wrayeth	Posted - 2005.12.20 09:30:00 - [42] Edited by: Wrayeth on 20/12/2005 09:32:10 I'm just starting training battleship 5 and plan on going for capital ships following that. The problem is, I'd really like to go minmatar, but the minmatar carrier bonus...well...sucks. Sure, it's unique, but by the time you can lock and rep anything in a fleet fight, that ship is already dead. Hence, there's no real point in the minmatar bonus. I agree that it needs to be changed - I don't want to have to go Caldari, as that would result in having to use the Phoenix dread, which is sub-par due to extremely long flight times for citadel torps and the sig radius penalty, even if the target is webbed (while testing on SiSi, I never worried about Phoenix dreads at FFA - the turret ships, however, scared the hell out of me and killed me on several occasions). I also agree with nerfing the Gallente drone bonus down to 5% to bring it into balance with the other races - 10% is just too much. -Wrayeth Go away.
Scalor Valentis	Posted - 2005.12.20 10:36:00 - [43] i dont know abaut you holmeses, but this boy is gona keep his carrier where it belongs, 30 km behind my fleet and repair stuff/swarm stuff with fighters. Capital repair systems are more than enought to be able to soak DPS in fleetfight from hostile fleet, also precense of capital ship can buy lots of time for your BS. As many NUBISH enemy comander (like seleen) whuld consentrate fire on carrier. in the meantime, just pop hostile BS's Only "but" there is that Carriers and support in general shuld be able to instalock gangmates to ACTUALY utilize the remote repairing in fleet.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.12.20 10:44:00 - [44] Exactly that's why the Gallente one is not nescesarely the strongest carrier, it may be the most damage dealing of the bunch, but it's not really as good at repairing stuff. Two carriers with capital remote repair supporting each other are damn hard to take out...
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2005.12.20 10:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Ante Originally by: Jim Raynor WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =( More to a stealth bomber than the number of launchers? Why do the other 3 have 2 ?
Nomispanco	Posted - 2005.12.20 10:59:00 - [46] WTF are you guys crazy or what??? Fly one first and complain then if necessary... If anything complain about the battleships or the lag that is so "oh no i got wtfpwnd because blabla". Play the game, dont try to design it
Niki Silver	Posted - 2005.12.20 11:45:00 - [47] Originally by: Nomispanco WTF are you guys crazy or what??? Fly one first and complain then if necessary... If anything complain about the battleships or the lag that is so "oh no i got wtfpwnd because blabla". Play the game, dont try to design it Its called trying to make the right choice - waste 40 days on Minmatar BS 5 or not. Personally I would rather raise the issue prior to wasting all that time not after. Actually flying one doesn't make a damn bit of difference. One of them has the ability to do 50% more damage then the rest, the act of piloting one isn't going to change that. If you wanna troll, do it somewhere else please. Thank you.
LUKEC	Posted - 2005.12.20 12:07:00 - [48] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Originally by: Ante Originally by: Jim Raynor WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =( More to a stealth bomber than the number of launchers? Why do the other 3 have 2 ? Same reason why other 3 carriers sux :) HatePeace LoveWar[ATUK] > they ebayed the bs for grain
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2005.12.20 12:08:00 - [49] Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 20/12/2005 12:09:34 Hey Niki, were you around during the Moros Drone Whining?? My point is here you have the same example once again. People whining abou the DPS of a ship that hasn't EVER been flown on TEST or on TQ. Is everyone flying a Moros because of it's extra DPS due to drones?? Is it horribly imbalanced? How many time have you been killed by a Moros? How many POSes died to solo or 1-2 Moros'? Honestly just sit back train for the ship you like and be quiet. DPS ain't no win button. Pain is meant to be felt
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2005.12.20 14:22:00 - [50] Juan, stop please. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.

Randuin MaraL	Posted - 2005.12.20 14:39:00 - [51] Edited by: Randuin MaraL on 20/12/2005 14:40:51 edited for lousy spelling Originally by: Face Lifter You already have the ability to cross-train for different faction ships. There is nothing stopping you, or discouraging you, from choosing something you want to specialize in and training for that - regardless of which faction your character has started from. In theory I agree, but we saw quite often by now that training for ship/race/faction/type A has been in vain once "teh nerfbat" did strike and favored type B. For long skill trees like for carriers a serious pain. Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die. MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner, kills in an ogre space suit
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.12.20 18:28:00 - [52] Originally by: Ranger 1 If a pair of Minmatar carriers get jumped, with fleet support or not, they will be called primary. The Gallante carrier is the most deadly. The Minmatar carriers, if used correctly and in a pair, are by far the most survivable. I disagree, as it stands now the Caldari carrier is by far the most survivable solo and I do not see the Minmatar carrier's bonus making up for the extra Invuln field and 5% resist bonus on the Caldari carrier even in a group. With carrier 4 and a faction Invuln field the Caldari carrier is taking half as much damage as the Minmatar ones. In a defensive fight where the Minmatar carriers are setup and already have target locks they could well be the most usefull carriers but in a mobile fight they become the weakest. In order to have a fast enough lock time to be usefull in a fleet fight you would need either a scorp remote boosting you or sacrifice your tank for sensor boosters. As soon as the enemy realize this they will call the boost ship/untanked carrier as primary and destroy it.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.20 18:46:00 - [53] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 20/12/2005 18:48:57 i love how ppl talk about remote repairing against a halfway organized fleet. Lets make sure we are all on the same scenario. A fleet with a carrier will normally have atleast 10 bs and a bunch of support with it, make it more likely 20 bs. If you hit a similar sized fleet who actually wants to take on you their focus fire will pop any bs before the carrier locked it or if it is locked before the carrier can do a 3rd or 4th cycle. This means when 20 bs fire a single bs dies instantly no matter if its boosted or not. Having said that lets not praise a feature which will only be usefull to repair other capital ships (nice for large pos siegeing) or in SS repairs on damaged bs who reallign to return to the battle. Afterall the locktime is like 20 seconds on these beasts... and no, 2 seconds faster repairing doesnt make the minmatar baby jesus cry in joy. In short it is totally idiotic that 3 races get a drone/tanking bonus, and one gets some weird remote repair/transfer bonus, afterall a safespotted logistics ship would prolly do the same, equally good. Not even to mention that logistics isnt really the most frequently used shipclass in the game or the kind of ship ppl are starving to fly in a fleetbattle.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.12.20 19:34:00 - [54] They should put in something that allows you to insta-lock gangmembers, then logistics would be sweet...
Lygos	Posted - 2005.12.20 19:50:00 - [55] So you guys want all the bonuses to apply to the drones or something? Should Amarr/Caldari drones get the 5% resistances? Or maybe the carriers all need a second bonus. One for the drones, one for the ship? I refuse to worry about it. Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible."
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.20 19:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Kcel Chim [...] Thanks :)
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.12.20 21:48:00 - [57] Edited by: j0sephine on 20/12/2005 21:50:34 "I disagree, as it stands now the Caldari carrier is by far the most survivable solo" Question is, who is going to let this sort of ship operate solo -.^ "With carrier 4 and a faction Invuln field the Caldari carrier is taking half* as much damage as the Minmatar ones."* Well, this is a bit misleading since nothing stops the Minmatar carrier from equipping said invulnerability field as well. Which means the difference in taken damage with equal setups is going to be 20% (while one extra mid slot on Caldari carrier allows to get a stronger tank overall, the benefits past 3 hardeners are practically none, and both ships can fit that many hardeners... so difference in amount of taken damage is effectively decided by Caldari carrier bonus alone)
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.12.20 22:44:00 - [58] Originally by: Niki Silver Amarr Carrier 5% Armor resist per level Caldari Carrier 5% Shield resist per level Gallente Carrier 10% Fighter damage per level Minmatar Carrier 5% Remote Repair / Xfer duration per level Ok first off why excactly does Gallente get 10% damage when Caldari and Ammar get 5% resist. Gallente fighter bonus needs to be decreased to 5% to maintain balance. And Minmatar is the gimpiest one? WTF Give it a fighter speed bonus or something, not a lame ass duration bonus. Using those remote modules on a battleship you are going to do at the most two pulses. So level 4 Gallente carrier does 40% more damage with its fighters while Minmatar sends two cycles of armor to a battle ship 2 seconds faster? That is total bull** CCP i agree _______________________________________________ Originally by:** Oveur To the nerfmobile!
Leeach	Posted - 2005.12.20 23:25:00 - [59] Is it only me or do more people think that the Archons shield transfer bonus is a strange thing. With 7 low slots and 4 med slots and a +5% armor bonus I hardly see it as a shield tanking ship. Why give it a shield transfer range bonus. It must be a mistake since the Aeon have a energy armor range bonus. why is the amarr the only race with a different bonus on the two ships
Bagdh Dearg	Posted - 2005.12.21 00:13:00 - [60] Look Im no fan of Drones but in all honesty,Its a DRONE Carrier. I have no trouble with the Galls getting a better bonus. This is in the hopes we might one day see a true Caldari Carrier which launches Autonomous Hunter Seeker Missiles. Please CCP, Gice the Caldari's something better then pitiful Gallentee copycats.Or stay true to the Backstory and distinguish between fighterts the Cals use and the XL Drones Gallentee's use. _______________________________________________ An tT nach bhfuil lßidir nf folßir d= bheith glic -He who is not strong must be crafty

Tekka	Posted - 2005.12.21 00:32:00 - [61] So is not the point of carriers to support other ships? Therefore the Minmatar carrier does it's role better than any of the other three race's carriers? Boo.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.12.21 00:48:00 - [62] Edited by: Jim Steele on 21/12/2005 00:49:16 Originally by: Tekka So is not the point of carriers to support other ships? Therefore the Minmatar carrier does it's role better than any of the other three race's carriers? strictly speaking yes but for two seconds quicker repair time id rather take and extra 10% damage/lvl i.e. 50% at carrier 5 which is *** loads basically!! Id take the xtra survivability of the amarr one or caldari one over the matari bonus. This is because the minmatar bonus that doesnt really mean much if you are under heavy fire since repairing a bs 2 second quicker wont really help much if your client is lagged like hell and your under heavy fire by dreads, whereas having higher resists will since these are active 100% of the time and odds are you wouldnt even have time in a carrier to lock friendlys and repair them befor they started popping anyway. Author of "The Apoc Guide"
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.21 01:13:00 - [63] Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:13:35 Cloud anybody of those that want to use a Carrier in a battle explain me it's practical use in a real battle? Med slot: Any kind of EW can be done tentimes better and cheaper by any other ship. Highslots (5): One perhaps taken by gangassist. Rest Extra Drone modules. Perhaps one Shield/Armor Repper each. In any real battle situation the boosting for your mates is definitly not going to happen. It has no use there. Anybody trying this is either going to lose the ship or outnumbered the enemy so heavily that it wasn't necessary in the first place. Therefore Amarr/Caldari Bonus pointless unless you get caught. Minmatar a bit useful (though having the smallest cap) to boost BS at SP/POS. The Gallente Bonus is by a huge margin the most useful one. So could we quit the discussion about taking your Carrier into Combat?
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.12.21 01:35:00 - [64] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 20/12/2005 22:48:10 "I disagree, as it stands now the Caldari carrier is by far the most survivable solo" Question is, who is going to let this sort of ship operate solo -.^ "With carrier 4 and a faction Invuln field the Caldari carrier is taking half* as much damage as the Minmatar ones."* Well, this is a bit misleading since nothing stops the Minmatar carrier from equipping said invulnerability field as well. Which means the difference in taken damage with equal setups is going to be 20% (while one extra mid slot on Caldari carrier allows to get a stronger tank overall, the benefits past 3 hardeners are practically none, and both ships can fit that many hardeners... so difference in amount of taken damage is effectively decided by Caldari carrier bonus alone) Come on j0, you know better than that. No EM or Thermal hardeners? The ships aren't just going to have 2 or 3 invulnerability fields when you have 7 slots available. Minmatar: 2x SB, EM, Therm, 2x Inv Caldari: 2x SB, EM, Therm, Kin + 2x Inv or 3x Inv + ship bonus The third Inv would have a heavy stacking penalty on EM and Threm but would have good effect on Kin and Exp. The Caldari carriers will have much better tanks than the minmatar ones so even with them remote boosting each other the faster cycle on the minmatar carriers will not make up the difference. Also, I didn't address the Gal. carrier bonus last time so lets look at the wording on that. It says "deployed" fighters. Is that all fighters, local and remote? Fighters handed off to other pilots? Fighters not handed off to other pilots? If the bonus only applies to fighters controlled by the carrier itself it may not be too much. The Gal carrier has the weakest tank and would have to be in combat to use the bonus.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.21 01:43:00 - [65] Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:13:35 Cloud anybody of those that want to use a Carrier in a battle explain me it's practical use in a real battle? Med slot: Any kind of EW can be done tentimes better and cheaper by any other ship. Highslots (5): One perhaps taken by gangassist. Rest Extra Drone modules. Perhaps one Shield/Armor Repper each. In any real battle situation the boosting for your mates is definitly not going to happen. It has no use there. Anybody trying this is either going to lose the ship or outnumbered the enemy so heavily that it wasn't necessary in the first place. Therefore Amarr/Caldari Bonus pointless unless you get caught. Minmatar a bit useful (though having the smallest cap) to boost BS at SP/POS. The Gallente Bonus is by a huge margin the most useful one. So could we quit the discussion about taking your Carrier into Combat? how do you come to that conclusion after making such a post ? if remote reparing in battle is totally useless (as you stated, and i pointed out earlier) how does the minmatar get on the "usefull" spot then ? If im not in the frontline and can repair away at a SS or Pos i dont think the 2-5 seconds extra time will really make ANY difference or could you tell me where it matters ? As for the carriers use, i doubt they will be safespotted all the time, why would anyone want to fly a ship and miss the whole fight ? I could do that in a logistic ship. So lets assume by default if its not an alt its in the battle ;)
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.21 01:55:00 - [66] Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:56:05 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Acwron Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 01:13:35 Cloud anybody of those that want to use a Carrier in a battle explain me it's practical use in a real battle? Med slot: Any kind of EW can be done tentimes better and cheaper by any other ship. Highslots (5): One perhaps taken by gangassist. Rest Extra Drone modules. Perhaps one Shield/Armor Repper each. In any real battle situation the boosting for your mates is definitly not going to happen. It has no use there. Anybody trying this is either going to lose the ship or outnumbered the enemy so heavily that it wasn't necessary in the first place. Therefore Amarr/Caldari Bonus pointless unless you get caught. Minmatar a bit useful (though having the smallest cap) to boost BS at SP/POS. The Gallente Bonus is by a huge margin the most useful one. So could we quit the discussion about taking your Carrier into Combat? how do you come to that conclusion after making such a post ? if remote reparing in battle is totally useless (as you stated, and i pointed out earlier) how does the minmatar get on the "usefull" spot then ? If im not in the frontline and can repair away at a SS or Pos i dont think the 2-5 seconds extra time will really make ANY difference or could you tell me where it matters ? As for the carriers use, i doubt they will be safespotted all the time, why would anyone want to fly a ship and miss the whole fight ? I could do that in a logistic ship. So lets assume by default if its not an alt its in the battle ;) Well what does a Carrier in a battle contribute? PS: about the minmatar bonus. At least it has some use (though hardly any) in comparision to the Amarr/Caldari one when being on a SP/POS.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.21 02:00:00 - [67] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 21/12/2005 02:01:22 direct fightersupport, tanking (you know soaking up fire from newbs who wanna kill a capital and ignore their bses getting popped 1 by 1), fast shipreplacements suicide rifters ftw and last but not least 3 gangmods. And last but not least the omnipresent moral boost. Would you like to have your "king" tucked away in some deep SS or rather directly with you ? There is not a single reason a carrier with a good tank shouldnt be in a battle (one which is remotely realistical and winable) afterall its a combat ship. I hate ppl who buy so called "battleships" but never take them out for a ride. Worst case is you lose it. edit: to your edit, you do actually know that to "repair" a dread in a pos siege the carrier has to substain itself under the randomly switching gunturrets of the pos aswell? So a solid 20% better tank is more worth then a 2s faster boosting rate
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.12.21 02:05:00 - [68] "Come on j0, you know better than that. No EM or Thermal hardeners? The ships aren't just going to have 2 or 3 invulnerability fields when you have 7 slots available." Think i wasn't clear enough, there ^^ when i said "the benefits past 3 hardeners are practically none, and both ships can fit that many hardeners", i meant 3 hardeners stacked on single resistance type, not 3 hardeners total ^^;; More specifically... what i meant is, provided a carrier is given to become primary target (as long as it's actually scanned down in the first place) ... you can pretty much expect it'll have to face large number of ships firing at it. With this kind of environment, the important part becomes reduction of incoming damage, for long enough to either kill what's trying to kill you or to free yourself and run. You just won't repair on your own anything near enough to withstand the incoming fire (even dreadnaughts fall to that, and each of their repairers is worth 4 in siege mode... and then there's motherships but that's another kettle of fish best left alone for now) So basically, i'd expect the 'shield tank' on carrier to be hardener-heavy than booster-heavy. Now note, you can fit em + therm + kin hardener + 2x invul.fields on both Minmatar and Caldari carrier. Then you can put the capital booster on both of them. Then you're finally left with one free slot on Caldari ship. She can put another hardener in that slot, but because it'll be 4th hardener for any resistance but explosive, the gain in resistance values is going to be small -- something along 2-4% resistances extra, top. So more likely there's going to be another module put there. Something that improves the overall tanking ability but what doesn't actually affect the shield resistances. Meaning, the difference in resistances becomes pretty much limited to resistance bonus on Caldari ship. Because other than that, both ships pack equally as many hardeners. Hope it makes sense now ^^;;
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.21 02:15:00 - [69] Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 21/12/2005 02:01:22 direct fightersupport, tanking (you know soaking up fire from newbs who wanna kill a capital and ignore their bses getting popped 1 by 1), fast shipreplacements suicide rifters ftw and last but not least 3 gangmods. And last but not least the omnipresent moral boost. Would you like to have your "king" tucked away in some deep SS or rather directly with you ? - Soaking up Damage: about 60k Armor/Shield with skills per Carrier. j0s said something along the lines of 800 dps tanking. So let's say 15 damage BS (about 500 dps/250 after resis) shoot the Carrier. So about 12 BS actually do damage. 12250=3k dps. 60k/3k= 20 seconds. Once a decent amount of BS actually lock the Carrier it's toast in no time. Even if you triple the time needed you know a minute means under worst conditions about 4 lost BS. The fighter Support itself can be done way better by directing them to tackling frigs. (faster lock, know when target is scrambelt, about 5 fighters = the damage of a close range BS) Gang assit can aswell be done from a SP/POS. Ship replacement at the Carrier in the Battlefield: bad idea. sitting with a pod next to the carrier. drag out ship to assemble, fit ship. Considering lag it's all done way better at a SP/POS Originally by:* Kcel Chim There is not a single reason a carrier with a good tank shouldnt be in a battle (one which is remotely realistical and winable) afterall its a combat ship. I hate ppl who buy so called "battleships" but never take them out for a ride. Worst case is you lose it. edit: to your edit, you do actually know that to "repair" a dread in a pos siege the carrier has to substain itself under the randomly switching gunturrets of the pos aswell? So a solid 20% better tank is more worth then a 2s faster boosting rate Well I didn't think somebody would use his Carrier to boost Dreads at a POS :)
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.21 02:25:00 - [70] your numbers are wrong, a carrier has more then 50% resistances to all if its semi tanked and it can repair some dmg aswell. however i agree a carrier is somewhat of a toy atm. This doesnt make the argument less important to point out that 3 of 4 ships have actually a "good" bonus while 1 gets the duct tape bonus again. "doh couldnt think of something lets say it makes ummmm, yea it repairs faster ftw!"

Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.21 02:36:00 - [71] Edited by: Acwron on 21/12/2005 02:44:18 Originally by: Kcel Chim your numbers are wrong, a carrier has more then 50% resistances to all if its semi tanked and it can repair some dmg aswell. however i agree a carrier is somewhat of a toy atm. This doesnt make the argument less important to point out that 3 of 4 ships have actually a "good" bonus while 1 gets the duct tape bonus again. "doh couldnt think of something lets say it makes ummmm, yea it repairs faster ftw!" Actually I did factor in the tanking and resis if you would look at the post again :) Though of course the numbers are just estamits and a bit off. Just to give an idea about what kind of tanking time we are talking about. PS: I don't think that Carriers are toys. I think they rule big time. The ability to tie the damage output of 3-4 Closerange BS to a tackler rules :) but taking them into a battle is just plain stupid.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.12.21 02:51:00 - [72] 2 reasons why they wont "pwn" imo. 1) its already hard enough to get a fight so ppl wont engage knowing a carrier or 2 are around if its hairy 2) an enemy who is on its toes and has his own support at bay will make short work of drones or simply jam them with the new ewar drones. I fear them more then i fear the carriers tbh, if will make tackling impossible if u lockup and have immideately 5 medium or small jamming drones going after you (or more if the fleet actually works together)
Rigsta	Posted - 2005.12.21 03:51:00 - [73] Edited by: Rigsta on 21/12/2005 03:54:49 Originally by: Friar Vigfus Ah balance talks about ship's that have never been flown on the test server much less even started producing yet on TQ. Glad to see Ships and Modules forum is still full of monkeys. Logged in to test any time in the month before RMR release? Titan Carrier Fighter Kcel: Dunno if it's the same on TQ, but as you can see there, that bad boy had 25 fighter drones flying around, and those things we eating battleships left right and centre. Apparantly they have trouble tracking frigates but I didn't get chance to test that as the battleship pilots though that shooting my Tristan instead of the drones that were attacking then would be a marvellous idea :P ----------------------------------------------- My Ideas: Drones wish list <-- 2 years old. I always knew the voice w
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2005.12.21 04:07:00 - [74] Uh, The best defense is still a good offense Pods cant hurt you after all, and if you crunch the numbers the gal mothership can kill a BS in a matter of seconds. _______________________________________________ Originally by: Oveur To the nerfmobile!
Trelennen	Posted - 2005.12.21 07:53:00 - [75] Edited by: Trelennen on 21/12/2005 07:55:01 Originally by: Bagdh Dearg Look Im no fan of Drones but in all honesty,Its a DRONE Carrier. I have no trouble with the Galls getting a better bonus. Well, let's follow this logic. Then we have DRONE Carriers, with gallente being 50% more effective in the main caracterics of the ship, drones. We have Stealth Bombers, with caldari being 50% more effective in the main caracteristics of the ship, missiles launchers (3 where others have 2). So, why minmatar intys don't have 50% more speed and intercepting ability than the other intys? These are a class of ship, and there should not be any of those much better than all of the others at what makes the class, in this case, drones (fighters). That's by the way the reason why SB will be looked at in the post RMR rebalance, so devs said, as manticore should not be much better at bombing than the other three just because caldari is the missile weapon, just like gallente carriers should not be much better with drones than the other three just because gallente are the drone race. PS: someone said that with these bonus, minmatar carrier will be better in static fight with lock already acquired on frien BSs, and bad at mobile fights. Aren't the minmatar supposed to be the king of skirmish? Isn't skirmish a hit and run tactic, hence very mobile? How could a ship that would absolutely not fit with minmatar philosophy be a minmatar ship? Originally by: DarK The cluetrain obviously doesn't stop at this station anymore...
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2005.12.21 08:23:00 - [76] Personally....I wouldnt be taking a carrier into combat. Battle repping is not that effective anyway due to the speed at which ships go down - and due to carrier lock time added to this, the best you could do is guess at a primary target, and thats assuming the primary target wasn't you. Carriers should be sitting in a safespot (or warping between multiple safespots, ideally) for people to run to when they need repairs or cap transfer. So sure, if an Amarr or Caldari carrier is caught in combat then it's going to be better off. But if you're doing your job properly, then the Minmatar is the better of the three. Of course, the Gallente one is just totally superior by virtue of that bonus being HUGE :) disclaimer: this represents my opinion, and although I think it's right, I understand that it may be arguable :P Loading sig, please wait...
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.12.21 13:49:00 - [77] Originally by: Trelennen PS: someone said that with these bonus, minmatar carrier will be better in static fight with lock already acquired on frien BSs, and bad at mobile fights. Aren't the minmatar supposed to be the king of skirmish? Isn't skirmish a hit and run tactic, hence very mobile? How could a ship that would absolutely not fit with minmatar philosophy be a minmatar ship? That was me and I agree it goes against Minmatar combat style. Running 2 boosters would not be sustainable even with the huge cap regen on a carrier but would still last quite a while. While both are running thats a 100% increase in tanking ability; to get an equal benifit out of a hardener it would need to be 50% to all resists with no stacking penalty. Carriers have over 40k cap with skills and a capital booster uses less than 200cap/sec with skills. Factor in cap regen and you can run 2 boosters for over 2 minutes. If there's a fleet shooting you you'll be dead before you run out of cap but if there are less than 10 ships you can tank them and kill them. The setup I posted gives 1280 hp/sec with avg 75% resist allowing you to tank over 5k dmg/sec.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.12.21 16:04:00 - [78] "Running 2 boosters would not be sustainable even with the huge cap regen on a carrier but would still last quite a while. While both are running thats a 100% increase in tanking ability; to get an equal benifit out of a hardener it would need to be 50% to all resists with no stacking penalty." Oi, no? ^^; second shield booster does increase repaired amount by 100% but in raw numbers this is 640 hp/sec extra. This means, extra hardening can outweight that (or not) much quicker than 50% resisitance increase... depending on amount of firepower coming your way. e.g with resistance of 60% single capital hardener can keep up with 1600 hp/sec of damage. This amount changes to 2245 hp/sec (i.e. 645 hp/sec extra, i.e. another capital hardener) if resistance goes up to 71.5% which is roughly equivalent of fitting tech.2 invul.field with stacking penalty. The effect is easier to spot the more ships is shooting you... with 10 k dmg/sec (i.e. 10-15 ships firing) you get the capital booster worth of soaked damage by increasing the resistance just by 6.4% Obviously with that many ships firing at you the carrier is going to melt extremely fast no matter what, but the soaked damage might buy couple more secs needed to run o.O;
Acwron	Posted - 2005.12.21 16:11:00 - [79] Actually I would fit something totally different in my med and lows. Not a tank. (perhaps a small one (repper, 1-2 hardener))
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.12.21 17:33:00 - [80] if the Gallente deserve the best carrier for being the best drone race, then logically the Minmatar would have the second best carrier, as they are the second best with drones..

Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.12.21 18:31:00 - [81] Originally by: j0sephine "Running 2 boosters would not be sustainable even with the huge cap regen on a carrier but would still last quite a while. While both are running thats a 100% increase in tanking ability; to get an equal benifit out of a hardener it would need to be 50% to all resists with no stacking penalty." Oi, no? ^^; second shield booster does increase repaired amount by 100% but in raw numbers this is 640 hp/sec extra. This means, extra hardening can outweight that (or not) much quicker than 50% resisitance increase... depending on amount of firepower coming your way. e.g with resistance of 60% single capital hardener can keep up with 1600 hp/sec of damage. This amount changes to 2245 hp/sec (i.e. 645 hp/sec extra, i.e. another capital hardener) if resistance goes up to 71.5% which is roughly equivalent of fitting tech.2 invul.field with stacking penalty. The effect is easier to spot the more ships is shooting you... with 10 k dmg/sec (i.e. 10-15 ships firing) you get the capital booster worth of soaked damage by increasing the resistance just by 6.4% Obviously with that many ships firing at you the carrier is going to melt extremely fast no matter what, but the soaked damage might buy couple more secs needed to run o.O; Except of course that we already have 3 hardeners per resist going and the 4th would be massively nerfed by the stacking penalty; 27% of 30% = 8.1% times 10k = 800dps whereas the second booster on the existing resists is giving 3 times that. Adding the first invuln. to a single resist was not what we were talking about before! Of course 1 invuln is good and even a second is which is why I used them in the setup I posted.
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.12.21 18:39:00 - [82] Originally by: Masu'di if the Gallente deserve the best carrier for being the best drone race, then logically the Minmatar would have the second best carrier, as they are the second best with drones.. Well, it does have the second largest drone bay. The Gal. carrier can hold 20 fighters and the Min. one can hold 18 while the Cal. and Amarr hold 16. If you were operating them in pairs you could store extras in the corp hangers as well so it doesn't make that much of a difference unless you are solo. If it were me I would also leave out one fighter and use the space for hundreds of heavy and medium drones, especilaly EW and web drones. Lots of sentry drones if you are planning on camping somewhere.
ImmortaL ZoorZ	Posted - 2005.12.21 18:41:00 - [83] Originally by: Jim Raynor WHY DOES TEH MANTICORE HAVE 3 LAUNCHERS? =( lol made me laugh
Mordis	Posted - 2005.12.21 18:54:00 - [84] ok. I understand that carriers have uber fighters, and that people will want to use as many of them as possible. What i dont understand, is what bout the capital guns, why not fit some of them on there. surly they would lay a hurting down on a battleship? Now alot ofyou are saying carrier, but i get the feeling your only talking bout the mothership, which is going to have inexcess of 60k sheilds/armor, But i see no mention of the smaller. less expensive carriers, Who will have at max maybe 30k-40k sheilds/armor at most, what role will those play in combat? But. my primary question is, why not use capital guns?
fmercury	Posted - 2005.12.21 19:02:00 - [85] Originally by: Face Lifter I'd agree that Gallente carrier is the best and Minmatar one is the worst. But do I think CCP should fix this? No. I believe in the idea of faction strengths and weaknesses. I don't want every faction to have near-identical ships. Why have different factions then? If one ship is so much better than the others, the end result will be that no-one uses the other faction's carriers. CCP might as well have just made the Gallente and not wasted their time with modeling and skinning the others.
Arleonenis	Posted - 2005.12.21 21:14:00 - [86] Originally by: Mordis ok. I understand that carriers have uber fighters, and that people will want to use as many of them as possible. What i dont understand, is what bout the capital guns, why not fit some of them on there. surly they would lay a hurting down on a battleship? Now alot ofyou are saying carrier, but i get the feeling your only talking bout the mothership, which is going to have inexcess of 60k sheilds/armor, But i see no mention of the smaller. less expensive carriers, Who will have at max maybe 30k-40k sheilds/armor at most, what role will those play in combat? But. my primary question is, why not use capital guns? BECOUSE CARRIERS AND MOTHERSHIPS DONT HAVE TURRET HARDPOINTS AND MISSLE BAYS??? Why you post if you have no idea about ship you write?
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.12.21 21:45:00 - [87] they should probably lower the drone bonus on the gallente ones to 5%/lvl i guess ------ Campaign to remove shield hardener effects, they suck!!
Scalor Valentis	Posted - 2005.12.22 11:51:00 - [88] Edited by: Scalor Valentis on 22/12/2005 11:52:21 Ahem I and prolly many others whuld like someone wiser than us (developer?) to state his thots on this, please? I dont want to start training minmatar carrier if its going to be 700m ornamental piece of my hangar. It cost isk and take time to train carriers, so shuld i rather sacrifice 29 days on Galentte BS lvl 5? and save me lots of trouble whining on forums of how badly minmatars suck?


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