Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
118
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 21:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Previous to a recent patch, many PVP'ers in the game were annoyed with the ability of people ratting to log-out (usually in tanky ships such as capitals) as long as they could survive the old 60 second timer.
Now when you are "flagged" (PVE/PVP etc) your ship will remain but try to e-warp out during a disconnection... however all your mods will deactivate. PVP will make that flag continual, making logging out to avoid PVP impossible (a good move)
(Intentionally or unintentionally this hurt people with shaky hardware / internet connections or dropped packets between your home and CCP's servers, as once a disconnect occurs your ships modules power off leaving you little chance to reconnect with a ship still intact.)
Recently Bitten Inc. planned a very well executed trap for No Holes Barred in their home system.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1kapzg/no_holes_barred_dropped_in_own_system/
This trap however relied on "logging in" to the system with ships and pilots who were snuck into No Holes Barred system.
Obviously Bitten Inc. did a great job and were able to get a good number of kills and presumably exfiled safely.
However, this begs into question the balance of no long being able to "log out" to prevent PVP but still be able to "log in" to attack someone.
The mechanics of this have never sat well with me frankly.
Now, I love the planning and strategy used to effectively pull off an op like this... all the way up to the point of people logging out their toons in systems to catch someone.
Any ideas that could be implemented to mitigate this? Or is this "Eve Offline" and as a community we are fine with this tactic being used.
|
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 22:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
I was victim to a log in trap once. Quite frankly, it's a complete exploitation of game mechanics and utterly infuriating. It should be addressed and made impossible. |
AstraPardus
THE INSURGENCY The Unthinkables
275
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 22:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Working as intended, I'm certain. Every time I post is Pardy time! :3 |
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security Tribal Band
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 22:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
|
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
56
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 22:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
119
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 22:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game. |
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security Tribal Band
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Well of course it sucks when it happens to you, but i don't really see the problem. Would rather just call it a smart ambush tactic. Also even though you only see one in local, that should be enough for your to become extra careful. |
Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
You would have to make considerable changes to WH's, otherwise you end up with a system that would favor the defender to the point that it would be nearly impossible for them to lose their space. |
Tarlson
Collective Insurrection
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
a 15sec timer on offensive actions would do it.
Just force the safety to green for 15sec, that would give anyone being jumped on enough time to react. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1059
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game.
That's cool.
Then it just becomes hot-drop-o'clock all the time. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
|
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
93
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take. |
Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 00:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take.
Definitely no, if you log off in (hostile) space then you should accept the consequences of doing so. I admit that it's not a very fun game mechanic when you're on the receiving end, but how is it any different from jumping into a gate camp? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
94
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 00:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take. Definitely no, if you log off in (hostile) space then you should accept the consequences of doing so. I admit that it's not a very fun game mechanic when you're on the receiving end, but how is it any different from jumping into a gate camp? gate camp you have time while cloaked to size up the situation. log-in trap you have no such oppurtunity.
i'm just saying give the pilot a short breather to see whats happening. if he moves or does anything the invulnerability goes away. Not much in the situation has changed but it's no longer an instant death situation |
Xequecal
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 00:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cloaked dictor login traps are even worse, especially if the dictor is an alt or second account. You scout the gate and see a clear gate, and only one other person in local, who is probably in an NPC corp or some random corp not red to you. So you bring your main in, the dictor decloaks, bubbles you, and everyone else logs in. There's not **** you can do about this and no way to scout it in advance. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
164
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 09:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game. so you would call ppl emptying a system and camping the exit gate in the next system exploitation too?
prety sure you would call cyno drop exploit then right?
it's funny to see how null sec is laughing when low complain about cyno drop, when they are in theyr cyno jammed system.
but the second you do the same to them, find an innovative game play to kill them, it's an exploit!
u mad? show us on the doll where the bad piwate touched you etc...... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3959
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 09:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?
Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?
After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
BlakPhoenix
Veni Vidi Vici Reloaded Darkspawn.
42
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 09:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?
Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?
After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial.
Yes and no. The difference between hot drops and login is that logins are much faster (especially if you're in a light ship). Hot drops must decloak, light the cyno, relay this on comms, have everyone jump, they must decloak and target you and be in range to pin you down. This takes much longer than the login trap does.
While I agree in some regards, I do find this an issue. Maybe a solution would be to increase how long it takes from login to arrive on field? Half ships natural warp speed, or something similar. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
164
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
BlakPhoenix wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?
Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?
After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial. Yes and no. The difference between hot drops and login is that logins are much faster (especially if you're in a light ship). Hot drops must decloak, light the cyno, relay this on comms, have everyone jump, they must decloak and target you and be in range to pin you down. This takes much longer than the login trap does. While I agree in some regards, I do find this an issue. Maybe a solution would be to increase how long it takes from login to arrive on field? Half ships natural warp speed, or something similar. no, it is way faster to decloack and point a ship than it is to login then warpin, then probably warp again unless you land right on the field, then lock it and point |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2529
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
|
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
864
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through.
I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this. |
|
Warcalibre
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Logging into EVE confirmed to be an exploit. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2530
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed! This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through. I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this.
"It is aboslutely unrelated to Local Chat"
What is it that local chat is used for: Getting intel on pilots in system.
[Paraphrasing] "Logged off pilots completely avoid all forms of ingame intel gathering"
The dots are right there. Logging off is one of the two "in game" techniques to avoid the game's intel system. The other one, cynoing in, has other disadvantages and issues, and often requires a titan.
I don't like log on traps, and don't do them, but I understand why they are done. They are a symptom of our in-games intel system which is too omnipotent for "dangerous" space.
If you alter the intel system, appropriately, I don't think people would bother with log in traps. As for a reasonable means to replace our local chat with an intel system, this is how I would do it.
|
Corun Deluse
Sky Fighters
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Logged off pilots can't shoot you.
It takes less than two seconds for for a stealth bomber to decloak and tackle you while his buddies wait out their decloak targeting delay. And without local you had absolutely no warning that he was there.
Pilots in the process of logging in DO show on DScan while their ewarp is finishing. If they had a covops cloak, it takes several seconds before they can press the button. It also takes anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds after they're on grid until they've fully exited warp and can start shooting things.
Logging in isn't much faster than their fleet being in the next system over. If you're tackled they're gonna get you just as easily as the guys logging in. If your intel network would have detected them in the next system over, why didn't your intel network detect them logging off?
A logon trap is also significantly slower and less effective than a hotdrop. Bridged (titan or blackops) ships can start shooting as soon as they load grid, and they'll have fleet boosts all set up. a logon trap wont.
If we're talking large scale fights, there should be 0 chance your intel/spy networks missed their large fieet moving around. Again they wont be in fleet as they log in thus reducing their effectiveness compared to coming in on a cyno.
Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
If a group has to use a Titan to kill someone, then we can discuss if Titan Jump Portals are overpowered or not
But at least players are logged in, using "normal" game mechanics to attack another pilot. They are visable on the in-game map (outside of wormholes)
Logging out prevents any chance of gathering intel of your attackers in anyway. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Corun Deluse wrote: Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect.
However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.
This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.
Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.
So, you figure out when your target is least active, you run into their system, don't put a POS up (they might see it on d-scan) and you wait for them play EVE.
I admire the time, planning and energy it takes to attack someone. However logging out in a system to avoid being seen using in-game mechanics needs to be stopped.
Also, as the years go on its becoming faster and faster to log into EVE. From client side improvements to faster hardware on CCP's side.
|
Corun Deluse
Sky Fighters
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote: However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.
This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.
I've never heard of a fleet logging out in a system for more than a couple hours waiting to spring a trap. I've logged out in invasion towers in null and wormholes alike, however those weren't "traps" and if the defenders didn't notice that we didn't fly home that's their problem not CCPs.
Also, i'm pretty sure my Black-Ops battleship popping out of a wormhole 5ly away is harder to detect than remembering that 30 guys came into your system an hour ago and haven't been seen leaving.
ShadowandLight wrote: Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.
Actually, i'd be surprised if serious wormhole dwellers didn't have 23/7 eyes on all entrances to their system. For smaller entities it's obviously harder but nowhere near impossible. With the Odyssey changes to scanning, it's easier than ever to know when new wormholes opened up in your system. The K162 opens up when they initiate warp, so you have the time it takes for them to exit warp and fly 10km to point your dscan in that direction and you'll see stuff coming in.
And again, logging off in space makes you show up on DScan for 30 seconds, and logging in for about 10. Staying logged-in and cloaked does not betray your presence at all. However in both cases, you're visible when you enter the system the first time.
The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole). However, as above, if the residents are watching their entrances they'll see the caps come in (30 seconds to get into warp off the hole, 30 seconds of warping, 30 seconds of logging off) and know what's going on. On the flip side, just by the nature of living there, the defenders have all or most their capitals logged off too just by the mantra "log off in your most expensive ships" that wormholers live by.
In null-sec I have yet to see a situation where logging off is a more effective "trap" than simply using black-ops, titans, or being in the next system over. If you see 'em come in and don't see 'em leave, they're either still in the system giving you time to setup a trap for them, or they left through a wormhole you failed to notice. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:Well of course it sucks when it happens to you, but i don't really see the problem. Would rather just call it a smart ambush tactic. Also even though you only see one in local, that should be enough for your to become extra careful.
It's not a smart ambush tactic, it's an exploitation of existing game mechanics. You can't explain away this truth.
Consistent with the rest of....Eve "reality".... a character can "log off" (wtf is that to my pilot in game) and render his ship completely undetectable? In what way is that reasonable? |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Corun Deluse wrote:
The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole).
That "one" advantage is completely unbalanced.
Attackers can then sneak into a system (probably undetected depending on how active / awake the other side is)
Put all their ships + capitals into random safe spots
Have a cloaked scanning watching the target
and jump on them when the right opportunity presents itself.
The defenders on the other hand are easy to find, they logout inside of their POS's.
It's not balanced and its an exploitation of game mechanics. |
Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
I liked the idea of decreasing warp speed of a ship that logs in while in space. If that proves too tricky, increasing the distance a ship must warp when it logs in would have the same effect. Fleet Bookmarks
Comets: the new Gravimetric scan sites |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 19:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb.
So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me.
This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |