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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
118
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Posted - 2013.08.13 21:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Previous to a recent patch, many PVP'ers in the game were annoyed with the ability of people ratting to log-out (usually in tanky ships such as capitals) as long as they could survive the old 60 second timer.
Now when you are "flagged" (PVE/PVP etc) your ship will remain but try to e-warp out during a disconnection... however all your mods will deactivate. PVP will make that flag continual, making logging out to avoid PVP impossible (a good move)
(Intentionally or unintentionally this hurt people with shaky hardware / internet connections or dropped packets between your home and CCP's servers, as once a disconnect occurs your ships modules power off leaving you little chance to reconnect with a ship still intact.)
Recently Bitten Inc. planned a very well executed trap for No Holes Barred in their home system.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1kapzg/no_holes_barred_dropped_in_own_system/
This trap however relied on "logging in" to the system with ships and pilots who were snuck into No Holes Barred system.
Obviously Bitten Inc. did a great job and were able to get a good number of kills and presumably exfiled safely.
However, this begs into question the balance of no long being able to "log out" to prevent PVP but still be able to "log in" to attack someone.
The mechanics of this have never sat well with me frankly.
Now, I love the planning and strategy used to effectively pull off an op like this... all the way up to the point of people logging out their toons in systems to catch someone.
Any ideas that could be implemented to mitigate this? Or is this "Eve Offline" and as a community we are fine with this tactic being used.
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Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
56
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
I was victim to a log in trap once. Quite frankly, it's a complete exploitation of game mechanics and utterly infuriating. It should be addressed and made impossible. |
AstraPardus
THE INSURGENCY The Unthinkables
275
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 22:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Working as intended, I'm certain. Every time I post is Pardy time! :3 |
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security Tribal Band
40
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
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Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
56
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
119
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Posted - 2013.08.13 22:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game. |
Kallie Rae
NorCorp Security Tribal Band
40
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Well of course it sucks when it happens to you, but i don't really see the problem. Would rather just call it a smart ambush tactic. Also even though you only see one in local, that should be enough for your to become extra careful. |
Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
You would have to make considerable changes to WH's, otherwise you end up with a system that would favor the defender to the point that it would be nearly impossible for them to lose their space. |
Tarlson
Collective Insurrection
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
a 15sec timer on offensive actions would do it.
Just force the safety to green for 15sec, that would give anyone being jumped on enough time to react. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1059
|
Posted - 2013.08.13 23:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game.
That's cool.
Then it just becomes hot-drop-o'clock all the time. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
93
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Posted - 2013.08.13 23:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take. |
Wolfgang Achari
Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club
0
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Posted - 2013.08.14 00:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take.
Definitely no, if you log off in (hostile) space then you should accept the consequences of doing so. I admit that it's not a very fun game mechanic when you're on the receiving end, but how is it any different from jumping into a gate camp? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
94
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Posted - 2013.08.14 00:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wolfgang Achari wrote:Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take. Definitely no, if you log off in (hostile) space then you should accept the consequences of doing so. I admit that it's not a very fun game mechanic when you're on the receiving end, but how is it any different from jumping into a gate camp? gate camp you have time while cloaked to size up the situation. log-in trap you have no such oppurtunity.
i'm just saying give the pilot a short breather to see whats happening. if he moves or does anything the invulnerability goes away. Not much in the situation has changed but it's no longer an instant death situation |
Xequecal
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 00:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cloaked dictor login traps are even worse, especially if the dictor is an alt or second account. You scout the gate and see a clear gate, and only one other person in local, who is probably in an NPC corp or some random corp not red to you. So you bring your main in, the dictor decloaks, bubbles you, and everyone else logs in. There's not **** you can do about this and no way to scout it in advance. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
164
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 09:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game. so you would call ppl emptying a system and camping the exit gate in the next system exploitation too?
prety sure you would call cyno drop exploit then right?
it's funny to see how null sec is laughing when low complain about cyno drop, when they are in theyr cyno jammed system.
but the second you do the same to them, find an innovative game play to kill them, it's an exploit!
u mad? show us on the doll where the bad piwate touched you etc...... |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3959
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 09:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?
Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?
After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
BlakPhoenix
Veni Vidi Vici Reloaded Darkspawn.
42
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Posted - 2013.08.14 09:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?
Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?
After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial.
Yes and no. The difference between hot drops and login is that logins are much faster (especially if you're in a light ship). Hot drops must decloak, light the cyno, relay this on comms, have everyone jump, they must decloak and target you and be in range to pin you down. This takes much longer than the login trap does.
While I agree in some regards, I do find this an issue. Maybe a solution would be to increase how long it takes from login to arrive on field? Half ships natural warp speed, or something similar. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
164
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 14:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
BlakPhoenix wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:The root of the issue is that a player makes certain decisions based on what they can see, and what intel is available ingame. Would they have jumped through that gate if they knew hostile reinforcements were 20 seconds away?
Would it be better for CCP to address the "reinforcements 20 seconds away" issue or the "player knows" issue?
After all, if CCP addresses the login-trap issue, the scene will evolve so that all gate camps will become hot drop camps dumping a pile of HACS on your solo industrial. Yes and no. The difference between hot drops and login is that logins are much faster (especially if you're in a light ship). Hot drops must decloak, light the cyno, relay this on comms, have everyone jump, they must decloak and target you and be in range to pin you down. This takes much longer than the login trap does. While I agree in some regards, I do find this an issue. Maybe a solution would be to increase how long it takes from login to arrive on field? Half ships natural warp speed, or something similar. no, it is way faster to decloack and point a ship than it is to login then warpin, then probably warp again unless you land right on the field, then lock it and point |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2529
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
864
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Posted - 2013.08.14 16:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through.
I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this. |
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Warcalibre
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 16:50:00 -
[21] - Quote
Logging into EVE confirmed to be an exploit. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2530
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed! This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through. I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this.
"It is aboslutely unrelated to Local Chat"
What is it that local chat is used for: Getting intel on pilots in system.
[Paraphrasing] "Logged off pilots completely avoid all forms of ingame intel gathering"
The dots are right there. Logging off is one of the two "in game" techniques to avoid the game's intel system. The other one, cynoing in, has other disadvantages and issues, and often requires a titan.
I don't like log on traps, and don't do them, but I understand why they are done. They are a symptom of our in-games intel system which is too omnipotent for "dangerous" space.
If you alter the intel system, appropriately, I don't think people would bother with log in traps. As for a reasonable means to replace our local chat with an intel system, this is how I would do it.
|
Corun Deluse
Sky Fighters
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Logged off pilots can't shoot you.
It takes less than two seconds for for a stealth bomber to decloak and tackle you while his buddies wait out their decloak targeting delay. And without local you had absolutely no warning that he was there.
Pilots in the process of logging in DO show on DScan while their ewarp is finishing. If they had a covops cloak, it takes several seconds before they can press the button. It also takes anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds after they're on grid until they've fully exited warp and can start shooting things.
Logging in isn't much faster than their fleet being in the next system over. If you're tackled they're gonna get you just as easily as the guys logging in. If your intel network would have detected them in the next system over, why didn't your intel network detect them logging off?
A logon trap is also significantly slower and less effective than a hotdrop. Bridged (titan or blackops) ships can start shooting as soon as they load grid, and they'll have fleet boosts all set up. a logon trap wont.
If we're talking large scale fights, there should be 0 chance your intel/spy networks missed their large fieet moving around. Again they wont be in fleet as they log in thus reducing their effectiveness compared to coming in on a cyno.
Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
If a group has to use a Titan to kill someone, then we can discuss if Titan Jump Portals are overpowered or not
But at least players are logged in, using "normal" game mechanics to attack another pilot. They are visable on the in-game map (outside of wormholes)
Logging out prevents any chance of gathering intel of your attackers in anyway. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 17:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Corun Deluse wrote: Overall, logon traps are annoying, but there are several more effective ways to kill you that don't involve waiting on the character screen that are just as difficult to detect.
However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.
This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.
Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.
So, you figure out when your target is least active, you run into their system, don't put a POS up (they might see it on d-scan) and you wait for them play EVE.
I admire the time, planning and energy it takes to attack someone. However logging out in a system to avoid being seen using in-game mechanics needs to be stopped.
Also, as the years go on its becoming faster and faster to log into EVE. From client side improvements to faster hardware on CCP's side.
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Corun Deluse
Sky Fighters
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote: However in all other cases you mentioned, with current game mechanics, you have some intel on the attackers.
This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.
I've never heard of a fleet logging out in a system for more than a couple hours waiting to spring a trap. I've logged out in invasion towers in null and wormholes alike, however those weren't "traps" and if the defenders didn't notice that we didn't fly home that's their problem not CCPs.
Also, i'm pretty sure my Black-Ops battleship popping out of a wormhole 5ly away is harder to detect than remembering that 30 guys came into your system an hour ago and haven't been seen leaving.
ShadowandLight wrote: Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.
Actually, i'd be surprised if serious wormhole dwellers didn't have 23/7 eyes on all entrances to their system. For smaller entities it's obviously harder but nowhere near impossible. With the Odyssey changes to scanning, it's easier than ever to know when new wormholes opened up in your system. The K162 opens up when they initiate warp, so you have the time it takes for them to exit warp and fly 10km to point your dscan in that direction and you'll see stuff coming in.
And again, logging off in space makes you show up on DScan for 30 seconds, and logging in for about 10. Staying logged-in and cloaked does not betray your presence at all. However in both cases, you're visible when you enter the system the first time.
The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole). However, as above, if the residents are watching their entrances they'll see the caps come in (30 seconds to get into warp off the hole, 30 seconds of warping, 30 seconds of logging off) and know what's going on. On the flip side, just by the nature of living there, the defenders have all or most their capitals logged off too just by the mantra "log off in your most expensive ships" that wormholers live by.
In null-sec I have yet to see a situation where logging off is a more effective "trap" than simply using black-ops, titans, or being in the next system over. If you see 'em come in and don't see 'em leave, they're either still in the system giving you time to setup a trap for them, or they left through a wormhole you failed to notice. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Kallie Rae wrote:Well of course it sucks when it happens to you, but i don't really see the problem. Would rather just call it a smart ambush tactic. Also even though you only see one in local, that should be enough for your to become extra careful.
It's not a smart ambush tactic, it's an exploitation of existing game mechanics. You can't explain away this truth.
Consistent with the rest of....Eve "reality".... a character can "log off" (wtf is that to my pilot in game) and render his ship completely undetectable? In what way is that reasonable? |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
121
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Corun Deluse wrote:
The only advantage to log-on traps I can see in wormhole space is seeding capitals in a target system because of mass restrictions (3caps per hole).
That "one" advantage is completely unbalanced.
Attackers can then sneak into a system (probably undetected depending on how active / awake the other side is)
Put all their ships + capitals into random safe spots
Have a cloaked scanning watching the target
and jump on them when the right opportunity presents itself.
The defenders on the other hand are easy to find, they logout inside of their POS's.
It's not balanced and its an exploitation of game mechanics. |
Swiftstrike1
Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 18:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
I liked the idea of decreasing warp speed of a ship that logs in while in space. If that proves too tricky, increasing the distance a ship must warp when it logs in would have the same effect. Fleet Bookmarks
Comets: the new Gravimetric scan sites |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 19:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb.
So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me.
This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item. |
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Corun Deluse
Sky Fighters
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 19:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Again, if the defender is large enough to have a chance against a dread and a moderate support fleet (that enter and exit through a single wormhole, no log-off required) they're either big enough to be aware of their surroundings and have alts watching their entrances. The longer the attacker plays log-off games, the more time the defenders have to batphone for help.
In order to consider capital-seeding by the attackers, you also have to consider "capital seeding" by the defenders that probably have had significantly longer to seed their own capitals. If two entities of equal size and resources are fighting, the nature of wormhole mass limits will give defenders a significant advantage. The fact that the defending capitals are likely logged out at a tower is an advantage to them, not the attackers. You can still safe-log inside a tower forcefield. Warp can't stop ships warping out of a tower (they'll just give aggression timers, but those don't matter if they're warping into combat).
Wormholes are not taken by a couple seeded capitals. They're taken by locking down the system to prevent reinforcements. You can't do that while logged off. It's possible for a few capitals to go dark in a system for an extended period of time, but caps without a support fleet are easy kills. I don't see a support fleet living in your system for an extended period of time without being noticed.("Guys, don't log in this week at all please.") If they got in undetected they're risking detection by logging off and waiting.
Even if you aren't paying attention you still have a full strontium bay in your towers and the "Your stuff's under attack!" mails to figure out who's doing it.
Increasing the e-warp time on login is a possibility. It would increase the time it takes for those caps to enter the fight but would do nothing about the fact that they're already in system. And it already takes a significant amount of time for a safe-spotted capital to enter the field of battle. (30 sec align, e-warp to safespot, 30 sec align, warp to target, exit warp/stop, (siege if it's a dread), target) If we're talking null/low sec we've already established several faster and more effective ways to achieve the same result.
If you make ships unable to shoot for X mins after logging in, those invading caps will just hang out in the invasion tower until they can shoot (if they're invading, they're setting up a tower). You also completely ruin any fight where people disconnect through no fault of their own.
Since there's no way to tell the difference between an intentional logoff and a disconnect, making un-aggressed ships stay in space forever on disconnect somehow I doesn't seem like a good idea. If they're aggressed, 15mins (5 for npc timers) is ample time to scan them down. (takes about 30 sec if you know approx where they are. less if you already have probes out) |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:ShadowandLight wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
Yes I do. Logging out in a system to catch someone , so that it appears "safer" to the victim, seems to me bordering on exploitation of the game. so you would call ppl emptying a system and camping the exit gate in the next system exploitation too? prety sure you would call cyno drop exploit then right? it's funny to see how null sec is laughing when low complain about cyno drop, when they are in theyr cyno jammed system. but the second you do the same to them, find an innovative game play to kill them, it's an exploit! u mad? show us on the doll where the bad piwate touched you etc......
Ahh, an argument void of any logic or reason. There are so many problems with this response, I don't even know how to respond.
If you can't see how this is an exploitation of game mechanics then you're either slow or in denial. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:10:00 -
[33] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
I agree with most of this, but these aren't "extraordinary lengths." You simply wait for someone on comms to tell you to click on your player portrait, and you log in. Really, really easy to do. One of many reasons this is an exploitation of game mechanics, most notably hiding presence in local.
I do wish local did not exist though. |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Phaade wrote:
I agree with most of this, but these aren't "extraordinary lengths." You simply wait for someone on comms to tell you to click on your player portrait, and you log in. Really, really easy to do. One of many reasons this is an exploitation of game mechanics, most notably hiding presence in local.
I do wish local did not exist though.
If local did not exist then you'd have no idea between this and people hanging out around 14.5 AU away. |
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:19:00 -
[35] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote:Phaade wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb. So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me. This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item.
1) That statement is inept, there is no other way to describe it. User error? Enlighten me as to what I could have done different to avoid said log in trap, please.
2) Except for the fact that I have dealt with log in traps before and never dealt with a Titan bridging a fleet on to me. FFS, You must be joking. You consider the investment of a ******* Titan to be the same as exploiting I want what you smoke.
So if I somehow hack eve, and put a doomsday device on my ibis and nuke a Nyx, "I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item."
DERP |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Phaade wrote: 1) That statement is inept, there is no other way to describe it. User error? Enlighten me as to what I could have done different to avoid said log in trap, please.
Don't assume you were safe just because you didn't see people around the gate and in local. If you jumped into a system where you could be shot, you should expect to get shot.
Phaade wrote: 2) Except for the fact that I have dealt with log in traps before and never dealt with a Titan bridging a fleet on to me. FFS, You must be joking. You consider the investment of a ******* Titan to be the same as exploiting I want what you smoke.
It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.
Phaade wrote: So if I somehow hack eve, and put a doomsday device on my ibis and nuke a Nyx, "I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item." DERP
No, because you explicitly said hack eve. You're twisting my words to suit your needs and that's obviously not what I had said. There's no game mechanic being exploited in log off, only your illusion of safety. Stop being silly about the examples you're thinking up
Derp indeed. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
864
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:30:00 -
[37] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed! This is absolutely unrelated to local chat. Logged off pilots also don't show up on dscan, and don't show up when you scout that system or the surrounding systems. Furthermore, any new intel tools added to the game (as CCP has said they would do if local were to be significantly changed) also ignore logged off targets. It is literally impossible to get intel on an enemy fleet that is not logged in, no matter what hoops you jump through. I would support a change to this mechanic if you could do it in a way that wouldn't be intrusive to other gameplay. Unfortunately I'm not sure how you could reasonably do this. "It is aboslutely unrelated to Local Chat" What is it that local chat is used for: Getting intel on pilots in system. [Paraphrasing] "Logged off pilots completely avoid all forms of ingame intel gathering" The dots are right there. Logging off is one of the two "in game" techniques to avoid the game's intel system. The other one, cynoing in, has other disadvantages and issues, and often requires a titan. I don't like log on traps, and don't do them, but I understand why they are done. They are a symptom of our in-games intel system which is too omnipotent for "dangerous" space. If you alter the intel system, appropriately, I don't think people would bother with log in traps. As for a reasonable means to replace our local chat with an intel system, this is how I would do it.
...Your suggested system is amusingly even more vulnerable to login traps. To achieve the same response time as a login trap, you need to have people sitting in a nearby safespot (less than a few AU away). In your proposed system, the victim would not only know that there are a bunch of hostiles in system, but how far away they are and what ships they're in. The only difference is that the victim knows their impending doom by virtue of a million new ships on scan rather than a local spike.
Log on traps in their current state will not become obsolete unless intel itself becomes obsolete.
Quote:Don't assume you were safe just because you didn't see people around the gate and in local. If you jumped into a system where you could be shot, you should expect to get shot.
Do you really think the game is better when the only way to avoid having a fleet dropped on you within seconds is to not fight? Do you see that making..anything at all...more fun or interesting? |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
122
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote: It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.
I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be.
When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game.
CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit.
Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone.
Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread.
Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.
Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area.
Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE. |
Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
368
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
This sounds like an issue with local. Unless I can confirm through local that you have logged out I wouldn't know to try a log in trap. If there is no local what is the difference between you e-warping after you log and you warping off to a safe and cloaking or warping to a POS? For all intensive purposes without local, and you not being on grid, I can't tell if you are logged in or not.
As someone who has used log in traps to catch machs and nightmares ratting, the only time I have used that trick is when I can CONFIRM you logged out. Without local it is very difficult to confirm that. Solution: Remove local.
I don't think you could convincingly argue that this is an exploit enough to get CCP to figure out a way to tell log in trap logs ins from other log ins. If I am hunting you and I disconnect where you were then log back in. You view it as a log in trap. I view it as my internet is terrible and I want to log back in. There are just too many edge cases that unless you were watching the people play you couldn't know if it were a log in trap or something else. IF It is an exploit you really can't punish people because of the edge cases where it might not be their fault. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 20:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Acidictadpole wrote: It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.
I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be. When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game. CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit. Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone. Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread. Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP. Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area. Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE.
I'm in agreement that it's not the same as a Titan when you look at all the effects happening. But from the perspective of the victim, it's exactly the same. People who were not in the system when you scouted it popped into system right on top of you as soon as you enter it.
I agree it's another discussion, but again, it's identical in effect from the victim's point of view, and that's what is being used to describe this occurrence as unfair. And my posts in here don't condone using the "logonski" at all, but I'm defending it because I don't think people who do use it should be penalized.
These logonskis have been in Eve since the beginning. It's not a new problem, and CCP has had plenty of time to fix it just like they fixed the logoffski. If they truly saw it as a problem I have little to no doubt that something would have been said/done by now. |
|
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 21:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote:Phaade wrote:
I agree with most of this, but these aren't "extraordinary lengths." You simply wait for someone on comms to tell you to click on your player portrait, and you log in. Really, really easy to do. One of many reasons this is an exploitation of game mechanics, most notably hiding presence in local.
I do wish local did not exist though.
If local did not exist then you'd have no idea between this and people hanging out around 14.5 AU away.
Valid point, though I would be able to detect them on D-scan while in warp, and the warp is most likely longer than the current log-in warp.
At that point, it wouldn't be an exploitation of mechanics either, so I'd be happy. |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
161
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 21:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote:ShadowandLight wrote:Acidictadpole wrote: It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that everyone else is safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop.
I think we are throwing around words like exploit inaccurately. An exploit is what CCP determines an exploit to be. When PVE's would log out of EVE to escape PVP, that wasn't an exploit, but it was considered by many a "cheap" tactic which they took advantage of. It wasn't in the spirit of the game. CCP agreed, they made logging out to avoid PVP impossible without labeling it an exploit. Using log-in traps to catch someone off guard =/= using titans to hot drop someone. Are titans portals overpowered? maybe.... But its a 100b isk ship that needs to have SOME purpose in the game. We can discuss its future in some other thread. Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP. Now, I could be 100% wrong here. Until CCP decides to chime in and declare that log in traps ARE part of the game design we currently are working within a "gray" area. Until they decide otherwise, like they did with logging out while in PVE. I'm in agreement that it's not the same as a Titan when you look at all the effects happening. But from the perspective of the victim, it's exactly the same. People who were not in the system when you scouted it popped into system right on top of you as soon as you enter it. I agree it's another discussion, but again, it's identical in effect from the victim's point of view, and that's what is being used to describe this occurrence as unfair. And my posts in here don't condone using the "logonski" at all, but I'm defending it because I don't think people who do use it should be penalized. These logonskis have been in Eve since the beginning. It's not a new problem, and CCP has had plenty of time to fix it just like they fixed the logoffski. If they truly saw it as a problem I have little to no doubt that something would have been said/done by now.
Nobody would do anything regarding a problem until people start standing up and screaming saying "this is a problem".
This should be addressed. How though, I could not tell you. Its not just local, as the local channel is as much intel to the people doing the logon trap as it is for the person warping into it. In addition, this example of a logon trap was done in wormhole space where there is no local. I'm not defending local, but local in this case, was not the issue.
Putting a timer on the people logging on won't help much as it would just be countered by having a 2nd or 3rd dictor there, and all the dictor has to do is live long enough for the timer to expire.
This probably has a simple answer, but I do believe were all in agreement that this is not a good tactic to allow be exploited by people (is it effective, yes, but is it a good one to keep around in eve, probably not). Stabbers are totally broken
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15116553
|
Phaade
Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us
59
|
Posted - 2013.08.14 21:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote:Phaade wrote: 1) That statement is inept, there is no other way to describe it. User error? Enlighten me as to what I could have done different to avoid said log in trap, please.
Don't assume you were safe just because you didn't see people around the gate and in local. If you jumped into a system where you could be shot, you should expect to get shot. Phaade wrote: 2) Except for the fact that I have dealt with log in traps before and never dealt with a Titan bridging a fleet on to me. FFS, You must be joking. You consider the investment of a ******* Titan to be the same as exploiting I want what you smoke.
It's not exploiting. There's no circumvention of any game mechanic in play here. They're taking advantage of people like you who think that just because local is mostly safe that you are mostly safe too. Which is exactly what happens with a hotdrop. Phaade wrote: So if I somehow hack eve, and put a doomsday device on my ibis and nuke a Nyx, "I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item." DERP
No, because you explicitly said hack eve. You're twisting my words to suit your needs and that's obviously not what I had said. There's no game mechanic being exploited in log off, only your illusion of safety. In your example you'd be circumventing the powergrid and cpu requirements of the item compared to a ship. Stop being silly about the examples you're thinking up. Derp indeed.
1) Assumptions are based off gameplay and consistency within the Eve universe; your answer does not counter my argument in any way.
2) There is a complete circumvention of gameplay mechanics, primarily the fact that they do not show up in local. Is there any way to hide yourself from local chat in game? I think not; you're wrong again.
3) The fact that I hack is irrelevant; according to your logic, if it a certain end is possible one way or another, it doesn't matter how the end is achieved, just that it happened, and thus is not considered hacking or exploiting.
You lack reason. |
Alundil
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
276
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 04:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
The logical failures in this thread boggle the mind.
If I log out in a hostile system because I am le tired after a 6 hour op in a combat recon ship with a cyno on it (it happens), then a day or two later I log back on again in that same hostile system and lo and behold see a ship on dscan (and it doesn't see me cause I am cloaked) I convo corpmates, get a fleet up, find the ship, covcyno fleet on top. To the unwitting ship, it looks like a OMG log on trap. But it wasn't.
The point is, it is highly unlikely to be able to know definitively what someone's intent is when they log on. It might be to trap someone, it might be to look for targets, it might be to set skill queue, or check contracts or any number of things.....all of which fall under the banner of "Playing the game"
The developers changed the logoffski mechanic because it invalidated, dare I say robbed, pilot(s) effort in tackling and aggressing another ship. Logging on to PVP isn't robbing someone of effort at all, nor is it unfairly protecting someone.
To be honest, this smacks of lost ratting ship after hostile pilot camped the anomaly OP happened to be running. The failure to prepare, in this instance, would be that of OP either not having, not paying attention to, or ignoring intel channels about hostiles in the area.
One of EVE's many rules is: If you undock, be prepared to die in the ship you undocked in.
/thread Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Blastil
The Reblier Alliance
97
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 05:01:00 -
[45] - Quote
I can't remember the last time a login trap was used on me. TBH, this ambush method has become outmoded and rather useless thanks to the improvement of the black-ops mechanic. Its much harder to keep players interest when they're playing WOT alt-tabbed out of client. I see no reason to effect a negative nerf when a positive nerf has already removed the bad behavior almost entirely from EVE. |
armymp327
Incompertus INC Fatal Ascension
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 05:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Too many posts for me to read because im lazy, but if this has not been suggested i think an easy fix to this borderline exploit is to just randomize the location the person logging back in will be.
The most common log-in traps i see are people jumping into a ratting system, finding a half done anom and then logging out. after a few minutes they log back in and hope the person that was doing the anom is back and they then land right on top of them. But if that persons warp-to after login is randomized then that would no longer be an issue, same with gate camps and whatever else. |
Whitehound
1825
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 05:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Logins should be given a 60 second cloak just like when jumping through a gate. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
85
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 06:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
The only problem with login traps is that it relies not on ingame mechanics but on abusing necessary client-server interaction. It's something that breaks suspension of disbelief and feels slightly outside the game. As being said previously, this is the best way to bypass omnipotent intel tool that should've never been there in a first place. So it should not be addressed until Local chat is updated. Then there might be some changes to login mechanics (e.g. timer to prevent attack) and/or D-scan (e.g. hiding behind a moon to become invisible from a particular gate). Such traps will be based on ingame mechn |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
131
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 06:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
Non issue imo. Yes it's a slightly unintended mechanic but I can't think of, and haven't seen anyone suggest, a solution that wouldn't completely screw the game in some other manner.
As others have said, a hot drop gives the same end effect. Login traps don't have the ability to follow a target either. As for wormhole space? A large amount of people log off caps whether they are an attacker or a defender, it cannot be helped.
As far as I'm concerned, some people here have lost a ship in what local chat told them was safe space and are massively heartbroken because of it and want the game changed so they can bear in peace. :P
I'm not against this being fixed/changed if ccp find a sensible way of doing it, but some arbitrary hard coded bodge to stop you being able to shoot when first logging in as some have hinted at is a bloody awful idea. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1651
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 07:39:00 -
[50] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Previous to a recent patch, many PVP'ers in the game were annoyed with the ability of people ratting to log-out (usually in tanky ships such as capitals) as long as they could survive the old 60 second timer. Now when you are "flagged" (PVE/PVP etc) your ship will remain but try to e-warp out during a disconnection... however all your mods will deactivate. PVP will make that flag continual, making logging out to avoid PVP impossible (a good move) (Intentionally or unintentionally this hurt people with shaky hardware / internet connections or dropped packets between your home and CCP's servers, as once a disconnect occurs your ships modules power off leaving you little chance to reconnect with a ship still intact.) Recently Bitten Inc. planned a very well executed trap for No Holes Barred in their home system. http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1kapzg/no_holes_barred_dropped_in_own_system/This trap however relied on "logging in" to the system with ships and pilots who were snuck into No Holes Barred system. Obviously Bitten Inc. did a great job and were able to get a good number of kills and presumably exfiled safely. However, this begs into question the balance of no long being able to "log out" to prevent PVP but still be able to "log in" to attack someone. The mechanics of this have never sat well with me frankly. Now, I love the planning and strategy used to effectively pull off an op like this... all the way up to the point of people logging out their toons in systems to catch someone. Any ideas that could be implemented to mitigate this? Or is this "Eve Offline" and as a community we are fine with this tactic being used. Edit: Some possible options to explore are: - Prevent offensive PVP (IE you cannot attack someone without them attacking you 1st) unless you undock or change systems. A timer could be used to balance this out, something long enough to discourage login traps that require a fast attack and get away. This obviously would not be a perfect solution due to cynoing people to your location from another area, but you could also make the timer instead universal. Also perhaps using titan / black ops ship would also be on a timer when logging in to prevent log-in / take cyno being the next iteration of this problem.
Glad to see Bitten still harvesting tears.
However, I honestly don't see any issue with players logging on and killing stuff. It's not - as some others have cried - an exploit.
Anyway, the only reason it's done is because of other really crappy mechanics. It's the only way to hide your fleet from local and the address book. It's far too easy to add the main bulk of a corporations players to the address book and be able to abuse that to determine how many members they're likely to bring to a fight. The problem is social tools like local and contact lists being old, poor mechanics that are abused and twisted into intel.
Remove contacts appearing as online/offline, and rebalance local somehow, and this wont happen because it'll no longer be necessary |
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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1651
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 07:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented.
Why? if i can't log off to avoid pvp i shouldn't be forced into it (the inverse situation) upon log in.
just my take.
Shouldn't be forced into PVP? Do you know what game you're playing m8
|
Bill Saisima
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 08:09:00 -
[52] - Quote
The one thing I'm missing from this thread is, doesn't logging off in a bubble prevent emergency warp? In that case I can see logon trap being more of a problem, if you log in and are instantly in attack range of victim. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1652
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 08:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Log-in traps are felt (at least by me) to be against the spirit of EVE. The designers didn't intend for you to log out to escape PVP and I would imagine they also didn't intend you to use log in traps to engage in PVP.
So you're saying CCP did not intend for players to log into EVE Online in order to PVP?
Um... no. I'm 100% sure they did intend for players to log into EVE Online and then shoot spaceships and do other fun things.
ShadowandLight wrote: This is what log in attacks prey on, people who think the area is relatively safe and then put themselves in the open.
Wormhole log-in traps make this issue even more glaring. No one can expect the average wormhole group to be able to watch their system 24/7.
I disagree, I think you can expect an alliance of that size to be aware of their entrance and exit wormholes 23/7, or very close to it. I've been in smaller wormhole corps/alliances who've managed to cover nearly the entire day - at times with only one or two vigilant souls from Down Under keeping their eyes open as they do whatever those crazy guys do when they're alone in the hole. They may not be able to put up a fight against a big invading party, but they saw what came and went and let everyone know about it. If you see people seeding capitals into your system, maybe you should hold off on lazily PVEing until you can take care of it.
Anyway, even if a corp or alliance isn't able to watch the system 23/7 - and that's fine if they can't manage it, timezones, real lives, etc - people should still understand that in that type of space other people are likely to try and kill stuff. When it eventually happens and someone is caught at an unfortunate time and lose some ships, that's just the way it is. Crying "exploit exploit!" and asking for mechanic changes is bizarre to me.
ShadowandLight wrote:That "one" advantage is completely unbalanced.
Attackers can then sneak into a system (probably undetected depending on how active / awake the other side is)
Put all their ships + capitals into random safe spots
Have a cloaked scanning watching the target
and jump on them when the right opportunity presents itself.
The defenders on the other hand are easy to find, they logout inside of their POS's.
It's not balanced and its an exploitation of game mechanics.
This is just a whole load of wrong. The only "advantage" to seeding caps is that you end up with a larger force than the mass limit permits - but this comes at a huge investment, both in time and pilots. And the only reason this is even done is because the defender/residents inherently have such a ridiculously huge advantage in terms of assets located in system by virtue of it being their home system. They already have dozens of capitals because it's their system. To call seeding caps an "advantage" is laughable.
As for having ships at random safe spots, having a cloaky watching things, etc... there is nothing that prevents the residents from doing the same thing. Why can't they have their caps logged off (or on, and cloaked) at safe spots? Why can't they have cloaked players watching whats going on in the system?
For the last time, it is not an exploit. |
Acidictadpole
Reikoku The Retirement Club
21
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 13:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Phaade wrote: 1) Assumptions are based off gameplay and consistency within the Eve universe; your answer does not counter my argument in any way.
Just because you feel safe when local is empty doesn't mean you are safe. That's what I'm trying to get at. You *know* titan bridges exist. You *know* that people can pull this log on trap. I think it perfectly counters your argument. You felt like because local was empty you were safe, that was a bad assumption. You can use local to help judge your potential for an encounter, but it's not a guarantee in any way.
Phaade wrote:
2) There is a complete circumvention of gameplay mechanics, primarily the fact that they do not show up in local. Is there any way to hide yourself from local chat in game? I think not; you're wrong again.
They don't show up in local because they're not logged in. That's intended mechanics.
Phaade wrote:
3) The fact that I hack is irrelevant; according to your logic, if it a certain end is possible one way or another, it doesn't matter how the end is achieved, just that it happened, and thus is not considered hacking or exploiting.
You lack reason.
The fact that you hack is irrelevant? There are mechanics in place to prevent you from fitting a doomsday to a noob ship. If you circumvent those mechanics by any means, then it's an exploit/hacking. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this.
Of course it matters how the end is achieved. The only way this kind of trap could be considered an exploit is if they are actually logged into their character but somehow not showing up in local in normal space. They aren't logged into their character, thus they don't show up in local.
If it doesn't matter how the end is achieved, then you just agreed that this is identical to a titan bridge. Because the 'end' is the exact same thing happening as a logon trap from your perspective. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1141
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 14:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
At all, all you need is to add contact and watch list once you spot the ship on your DS, probe it and wait. Guy logs in, uncloack/bble and be ready to light cyno, waw how much related to local this is? -nothing it's exactly the same stuff you do in wh' that have no local, yet the same technique is used because timers are the factor and not local.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Kenji Eyrou
Turalyon Plus
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 14:55:00 -
[56] - Quote
So what OP is really telling us is that we can hotdrop in High Sec, without the use of Cyno Field, Cyno Pilots or burning up fuel to light or use the cyno to ambush a fleet...
Good to know. |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
87
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 15:07:00 -
[57] - Quote
I'm on the verge of saying that the login trap is as close to risk free PVP as you can get. Someone used the example of a cloaked dictor bubble when you come in. The main difference between a cyno and a login trap is that there are weaknesses with the cyno in terms of you are immobile for 5 minutes while the cyno is burning.
Time wise.. How long does it take for someone to land on grid when they login? How long does it take to light a cyno+have titan activate bridge+have fleet members take bridge+load grid?
If the login trap takes less time then I believe this to be a bigger deal because it involves less risk because you cannot pop while your logged off, but your fleet can get ambushed while sitting on a titan outside a pos bubble. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2540
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 16:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
Hopelesshobo wrote:I'm on the verge of saying that the login trap is as close to risk free PVP as you can get. Someone used the example of a cloaked dictor bubble when you come in. The main difference between a cyno and a login trap is that there are weaknesses with the cyno in terms of you are immobile for 5 minutes while the cyno is burning.
Time wise.. How long does it take for someone to land on grid when they login? How long does it take to light a cyno+have titan activate bridge+have fleet members take bridge+load grid?
If the login trap takes less time then I believe this to be a bigger deal because it involves less risk because you cannot pop while your logged off, but your fleet can get ambushed while sitting on a titan outside a pos bubble.
The time to land on grid is about the time it takes to cyno, activate portal, and bridge. Both are very quick, but not instantaneous.
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat. At all, all you need is to add contact and watch list once you spot the ship on your DS, probe it and wait. Guy logs in, uncloack/bble and be ready to light cyno, waw how much related to local this is? -nothing it's exactly the same stuff you do in wh' that have no local, yet the same technique is used because timers are the factor and not local.
And why is this used in WH space? To hide from our intel tools. Really, they have no other options to exercise in w-space (I suppose putting cloaks on everything might work, but it gimps your combat ability).
In nullsec, the only technique to hide from those in local is to NOT be in local. Please realize I don't want local removed, I just want an actual intel system that doesn't instantly identify a player as friend or foe the second they come into local. I don't think that information should be handed to you on a silver platter. |
Hentes Zsemle
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
20
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 17:12:00 -
[59] - Quote
I used to do this a lot. The only reason for it is that otherwise the people who live in hostile nullsec warp to a safe station or pos or log off as soon as you enter a system. Which they automagically get to know - through local chat. Btw if you think this is a riskless way of pvp, you are stupid. |
Vexed Nova
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 17:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
This is just one of those topics where no one gains any ground and people like me throw our hat in the ring as an excuse to type some long wall of text.
Often times, the only way to force an engagement is to trick someone into fighting. Basically, using a log in trap is sometimes the ONLY way to get a fight. Otherwise, you are more likely to play station/gate/celestial games until 1. someone makes a mistake, b. someone decides to be a hero or c. you get bored and log off for the night.
There are two schools of thought involved here. 1. Log off/on traps ARE valid and not exploits basically because it is the only way for an aggressor to set up favorable conditions to force and capitalize on an engagement. There really isn't any other reason to do it. It's to get kills.
2. Log off/on traps are a creative use of mechanics because, if you consider the spirit of the game, when you remove yourself from the gaming universe, you are thus using an omnipotent ability to effect the gaming universe (most would liken this to God-mode). This is only really matters to people on the wrong side of the gun as most who commit the trap don't think of it that way. It is just a creative use of game mechanics. It will be that way until CCP does something about it. If they don't. Whatever. If they do, okay. Wait a month and start this discussion over again with a similar game mechanic massage. EVE players are fantastic at finding and exploiting loop-holes. I swear, most of them must work for insurance companies.
I have been on both sides of the fence and I really don't give a crap either way.
Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving was not for you. |
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
126
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 18:01:00 -
[61] - Quote
Vexed Nova wrote: Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".
Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then?
If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not? |
Vexed Nova
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 18:24:00 -
[62] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:
Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then?
If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?
Well, I think that was partially addressed by being held on grid with combat timers clicking away. I know in the past, creative carrier pilots disco'd to warp off grid. I don't think that works anymore.
Either logging in or logging off to avoid or capitalize on PVP are both creative uses of game mechanics If at first you don't succeed, skydiving was not for you. |
Vexed Nova
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 18:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:
If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?
I think the term "acceptable" and "able" are used by whatever side you chose. If you look at it that way, being "able" to do it is also "acceptable" when the game developer doesn't put a stop to it.
Just my two isk. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving was not for you. |
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
116
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 19:53:00 -
[64] - Quote
I have never been killed by this type of trap.
However, given the info here, I can spend all the time I want checking local, in-game intel as well as out of game intel (DotLan) to find a 'safe' route through bad space and still get killed by a group of non-titan equipped enemies.
I think that is very much against the spirit of EvE. Yes there is danger, and yes there is sometimes little you can do about it. By allowing pilots to remove themselves from local at will it makes for an unbalanced situation in favor of the attacker.
After reading the entire thread, the best option I have seen is to have the eWarp drop you anywhere from 10-20KM ( not less that 10km ) away from your exit point. At least this give the target a chance for lady luck to step in and add the precious seconds needed to warp off.
To me this is exactly what clocking should be, same as a log-off but a pretty screensaver and chat. |
Klymer
Hedion University Amarr Empire
373
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 22:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
I don't think comparing the tactic to Titan bridging is fair. You can add a Titan pilot to your watch list, so when he's online you have some idea that a cyno drop is a possibility and can plan accordingly. Yeah you have to do some scouting, and spying as well probably, to find out who those pilots are but it can be done, it's just takes *effort*. Not being able to tell if a fleet is logged off in a system until it's too late just isn't the same.
Reading that link in OP, it seems impressive on the surface but when you look at how wh's are, it's not really surprising or all that impressive. That's one of the side effects of the current scanning system and no local. You have no way of knowing what's out there unless you are constantly clicking a friggin button over and over again. Having to do that **** all the time is just not fun, it's why I left after a few months of living in one.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
590
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 22:18:00 -
[66] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
Was thinking the same thing here. Seems like the root problem is local. Guy logs in a scout, sees local full of "bad guys" logs of and doesn't log in his main in the juicey target.
People get tired of this and figure, fine we'll log too except for the scout in a hictor in an NPC corp. Then when he is caught we'll log in and kill him.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
126
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 22:58:00 -
[67] - Quote
You people keep throwing up "LOCAL IS THE PROBLEM AAAAAHHHHHH" defense are driving me to drink.....
Your being intellectually dishonest and Its complete whitewash
The perfect example of how broken this "mechanic" is (if you would please read my very 1st post in this thread) is the example used in a WH fight.
There IS NO LOCAL in WH space. Its gone. All you "I hate local" people have no other defense on why log-in traps should be allowed to continue when you use local as a defense, when the example that best illustrates the problem is INSIDE A WORMHOLE.
This is a cheap tactic, used because they couldn't find any other way to bring enough firepower to attack the people living in the WH without taking losses.
Once again, I admire the time, dedication and planning needed to pull this off. However they should have been forced to setup a POS OR have such a delay when trying to log-in to attack someone that it would be untenable.
Just to be clear
THIS HAPPENED IN A WORMHOLE |
Corun Deluse
Sky Fighters
7
|
Posted - 2013.08.15 23:38:00 -
[68] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:- Prevent offensive PVP (IE you cannot attack someone without them attacking you 1st) unless you undock or change systems. Having to leave system and come back through a mass-limited hole before you can shoot anything sounds like a great improvement for wormhole pvp. Docking is, obviously, not an option.
ShadowandLight wrote: A timer could be used to balance this out, something long enough to discourage login traps that require a fast attack and get away. Having a no-pvp timer on login just slows the action down and puts the defenders on an even bigger disadvantage than they were with just the logon trap because the attackers know in advance. The defenders cant respond to the attack until it happens, so the'll still have "No-PvP timers" while the attackers get to shoot at them.
Here's how It'd play out: - attackers come in, warp to safe spots, "lose internet connection" (because logging out in space is an exploit) - attackers organize a time to all log in together. Their "no-pvp" timers start ticking. - attackers start putting up a tower. - If the defenders see this right away, they batphone/jabber and start logging in their stuff. Best case they're 1-2 minutes behind the attackers, worst case, 10+ minutes. - Attackers get to pew at stuff for many minutes with no danger because defenders can only return fire, not initiate attacks. - Defenders cant do squat about the tower, cause they can't shoot yet.
How bout a scenario even less in the defender's favor: - Attackers find an entrance - defenders see this, call people on jabber/cellphones etc. defense fleet starts logging on (remember, they're sleeping) - attackers bring in 20 T3s, an orca, and a dread. wormhole closes. - attackers gets to set up tower under no threat because defenders can't shoot yet.
No log-on trap here, but the anti-logon trap totally ruined it for the defenders, why even bother?
I have yet to be convinced that logging on in space is as serious a problem as some people seem to think. And even if it is, any solution I've read or I can come up with beyond "Your internet must be perfect and you're never allowed to log out" is an order of magnitude worse for the game than being able to log on and shoot things.
ShadowandLight wrote:If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not? Remember, the log-off change was made because prior to that it was nearly impossible to kill super capitals. All they needed to do was close their client (or unplug their internet) and their ship would disappear before it exploded.
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
126
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 00:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
You bring up many good points, if any solution implemented is too far into the margins
I would only ask that a mechanic be put into place to prevent "Log-in / Gank / Run" type of ops
Also, in an ideal world, ships logged out in a system should be able to be scanned out (not found, but able to be noticed).
You shouldn't be able to log out 10 dreads in someones system and have any idea they are there unless you have enough people to watch the system / wh's / etc for 24 hours a day..... That is not realistic.
I am not looking to prevent people from playing EVE, but for the ganks (like the one in the 1st post) there was a short window.... perhaps 10-15 minutes max, that the attackers had to get in and get out.
Logging in and being able to instantly target / kill someone without the opposition having any mechanic to know there is a possibility you could be jumped on is broken.
Also, I might have the mechanics wrong, but I *think* that if you are in PVE, log out, then get attacked the PVP timer goes into effect.... locking your ship in game... |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
591
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 04:16:00 -
[70] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:You people keep throwing up "LOCAL IS THE PROBLEM AAAAAHHHHHH" defense are driving me to drink.....
Your being intellectually dishonest and Its complete whitewash
The perfect example of how broken this "mechanic" is (if you would please read my very 1st post in this thread) is the example used in a WH fight.
There IS NO LOCAL in WH space. Its gone. All you "I hate local" people have no other defense on why log-in traps should be allowed to continue when you use local as a defense, when the example that best illustrates the problem is INSIDE A WORMHOLE.
This is a cheap tactic, used because they couldn't find any other way to bring enough firepower to attack the people living in the WH without taking losses.
Once again, I admire the time, dedication and planning needed to pull this off. However they should have been forced to setup a POS OR have such a delay when trying to log-in to attack someone that it would be untenable.
Just to be clear
THIS HAPPENED IN A WORMHOLE
Yo ragetard, might want to read your own OP since I don't see wormhole anywhere in there. And sorry, I pretty much ignore wormhole stuff so I don't know wormhole corps by name....oh and might I suggest decaf coffee? Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
210
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 07:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
ITT: Crying over the "latest" mechanic.
This ability has been around since day one of EvE, OP has only just gotten around to being killed by it and has created this spurge of a thread.
I think overall it does come down to local, feeling too secure in your intel of local (entitlist?) as if local did not exist (as in wormhole space) how would you know that it was a log-on trap that was performed? That they didn't warp in from a freshly spawned wormhole? (I've been in this game since 07, I've done half my EvE life in wormholes and the other in null) Your only indication is that they have more capitals than there is mass of a wormhole for and how then do you know that you weren't just bad of keeping track of what was in your hole and they'd kept out of the way at a deep safe (within the planetary influence obviously, not the deep deep safes of old). Or that there entire fleet didn't have cloaking devices?
As for the null argument this is just crying because you died, next you'd complain that some gates are too close together because you got tackled by the single dictor on gate and a fleet hiding behind a gate ~500000km away was able to warp in too quickly before you got back to gate. Or that wormholes should be removed because you couldnt see the fleet that was hiding in the hole waiting for that same tackle, or that covert cyno's should get nerfed because you got tackled by that arazu on gate and hotdropped, or that (insert ship here) should get removed because they too managed to tackle you and you got titan bridged on top of.
There are plenty of mechanics to project a considerable force on top of your position very quickly, there will more than likely be mechanics that will be come up with that you'll proceed to cry about in the future.
TL:DR; stop crying. |
Vexed Nova
FDA Shipwrights Tri-Star Galactic Industries
12
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 18:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
seany1212 wrote:
TL:DR; stop crying.
HAHA!
Well, That will just about cover the fly-by's. If at first you don't succeed, skydiving was not for you. |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
127
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 18:22:00 -
[73] - Quote
seany1212 wrote: This ability has been around since day one of EvE, OP has only just gotten around to being killed by it and has created this spurge of a thread.
Acutally I've never personally experienced it that I can recall, but that doesnt mean I dont think its a good game "mechanic"
seany1212 wrote: I think overall it does come down to local, feeling too secure in your intel of local (entitlist?) as if local did not exist (as in wormhole space) how would you know that it was a log-on trap that was performed?
Its not a local problem as I stated above. Its a problem of people able to "hide" ships outside of the current game mechanics. Logged off ships are not able to be noticed by any game mechanic. This problem is exacerbated in WH's, but it exists in all areas of EVE.
Unless CCP comes into the thread and says log-in traps are something they are happy with and part of the grand EVE design I will keep contending that this is an unintended consequence that hasn't had the light shined on it in a public manner. it is absolutely unintended that people are able to "seed" capitals, log them out inside a WH and then wait and do a mass login to trap someone. There are some very commendable things occurring there, PVP is happening (good), planning, strategy, risk calculation etc. But in the end they are using a broken mechanic to try and "gank" someone that wouldn't be possible if else wise.
seany1212 wrote: There are plenty of mechanics to project a considerable force on top of your position very quickly, there will more than likely be mechanics that will be come up with that you'll proceed to cry about in the future.
I am being intellectually honest, are you? Titan / blackop's hot dropping require you to be in-game and use specialized ships to accomplish this task. (we can argue if this is overpowered in another thread, frankly if I think about it I can swing either direction.) Trapping someone near a gate and jumping in from the other side with your fleet to kill them requires you to be in-game. These examples involve being logged into EVE and with proper scouting can be mostly avoided (or at least give your intel a chance to detect them).
Without staying logged in 24/7, you wouldnt know people there was x number of ships hiding in your system, logged out sitting on the character selection screen waiting to gank you.
TL;DR? Using in-game mechanics... good.... hiding your fleet by logging it out to gain an advantage, bad... |
Whitehound
1836
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 18:27:00 -
[74] - Quote
Vexed Nova wrote:seany1212 wrote:
TL:DR; stop crying.
HAHA! Well, That will just about cover the fly-by's. While it is good to tell people to stop with crying, or to make them cry if they have not done so yet, does OP seem to be long past the point and deserves a bit of respect. Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1570
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 21:00:00 -
[75] - Quote
Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic... |
ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
129
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 21:04:00 -
[76] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic...
I think one solution might be making any piloted ships logged off in space "detectable"
You wouldnt be able to find those ships or pinpoint them, but CCP could allow you to take a headcount of the ships logged out.
IE there is 10 ships logged out (piloted) in this system. Add it to the scanner system.
Allowing people to know WHAT ships are logged out (IE, 5 battleships, 3 carriers, 1 super) might be a bit too much information.
Frankly I am not sure what fix is best, but certainty the current mechanic is not what was intended. |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1570
|
Posted - 2013.08.16 21:06:00 -
[77] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Explain how any anti-login trap mechanic isn't going to ruin the day of literally everyone who ever disconnects in a PVP situation. Log back in in time, and you still can't do anything because of a game mechanic added to combat a niche tactic... I think one solution might be making any piloted ships logged off in space "detectable" You wouldnt be able to find those ships or pinpoint them, but CCP could allow you to take a headcount of the ships logged out. IE there is 10 ships logged out (piloted) in this system. Add it to the scanner system. Allowing people to know WHAT ships are logged out (IE, 5 battleships, 3 carriers, 1 super) might be a bit too much information. Frankly I am not sure what fix is best, but certainty the current mechanic is not what was intended.
Don't you think this would be kind of skewed by friendlies? I mean, if I ran this in my home system and picked up fifty logged out ships, they'd probably all just be locals. Or hell, thousands of unsubbed characters, depending on the system. |
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
79
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 09:30:00 -
[78] - Quote
I think a improtant factor in the issue many of you are overlooking is the risk VS reward.
A fleet logged off in a system is completely invulnerable, they cans it there with a claoked eye and wait to jump and gank a target with absolutely no chance of any real PVP unless they screw up. Any good attacker has intel on when they want to perform their gank, and since the flag changes they wait until their target is completely vulnerable. They log on, warp to X, kill everything, warp out, cloak up, then log. This isnt an issue of gate camps, or hot drops, its a method of completely safely ganking pve fleets and then running for the hills rather than actual PVP.
There is no PVP generated in this case, only a gank on some targets that had little to no chance of retaliating. The only possibly viable tactic to fight back is your own log on trap, which is about as dumb as saying the best way to counter titans is more titans.
I dont think that any of the suggested "NO PVP" timers are the right way to go so I can't say I have the solution but I do agree it is a problem. I think allowing you some form of rudimentary intel as to what is/how much is logged off in a system is much closer to the way to go, but not perfect either. In regards to system sieges it is very rare when the defender doesnt already know someone is seeding capitals in their system, it isnt usually a surprise as much as a " you know its coming just not when" situation, So i dont think this additional intel will have a significant impact on this.
If you want to gank someone, at least having to be logged in prior to the gank allows the people to see you and maybe be ready/able to fight back. Even if your fleets at a deep safe combat scanners are likely to pick it out and so your not completely surprised when a blob lands on your pve fleet.
If I want to hide a large capital fleet, force them to pay for their covertness, having to fit a cloak into their entire fleet is the price one should have to pay if i want my fleet to be cloaked, logging off makes it too simple |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
156
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 10:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
ExookiZ wrote:I think a improtant factor in the issue many of you are overlooking is the risk VS reward.
A fleet logged off in a system is completely invulnerable, they cans it there with a claoked eye and wait to jump and gank a target with absolutely no chance of any real PVP unless they screw up. Any good attacker has intel on when they want to perform their gank, and since the flag changes they wait until their target is completely vulnerable. They log on, warp to X, kill everything, warp out, cloak up, then log. This isnt an issue of gate camps, or hot drops, its a method of completely safely ganking pve fleets and then running for the hills rather than actual PVP.
I believe it would go a long way, if people just logging in again would be scrammable. Else you got some jokers jumping and logging, and no matter how hard you agress, cannot tackle them until they log in and reappear back where they logged. So please let us apply points to things that just logged in. Nothing more annyoing than pointing/bubbling a carrier 1mil km off their POS and it just warps back <.< Would imo also make for a lot more tackled supers, which is clearly always a good thing. I only correct my own spelling. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
627
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 17:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Vexed Nova wrote: Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".
Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then? If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?
Might I suggest some haldol?
Seriously though, the person appears to be on your side regarding log on traps.
Comparing valid in game mechanics (bridging) vs. log on traps (and yes logging off to avoid PVP) is not a valid comparison. CCP pruposefully created the bridging modules/ships/mechanic for the express purpose of moving systems without moving gates and introducing uncertainty to the game.
Log on/off stuff is admittedly dubious, it is like trying to get a hot drop on the sly. Right now, given how local works in null sec, I know you freaked out about this happening in WH space, it does render null very, very safe. So, if you wanted to prohibit this kind of thing in WH's right now, I'd be fine with it (yeah, I know I'm not a WH dweller so my view may not carry much weight) but given how easy it is to reduce risk and uncertainty in the game in null at the moment, I'd prefer to leave the log on option even thought I don't find it very appealing. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
627
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 17:11:00 -
[81] - Quote
ExookiZ wrote:I think a improtant factor in the issue many of you are overlooking is the risk VS reward.
A fleet logged off in a system is completely invulnerable, they cans it there with a claoked eye and wait to jump and gank a target with absolutely no chance of any real PVP unless they screw up. Any good attacker has intel on when they want to perform their gank, and since the flag changes they wait until their target is completely vulnerable. They log on, warp to X, kill everything, warp out, cloak up, then log. This isnt an issue of gate camps, or hot drops, its a method of completely safely ganking pve fleets and then running for the hills rather than actual PVP.
There is no PVP generated in this case, only a gank on some targets that had little to no chance of retaliating. The only possibly viable tactic to fight back is your own log on trap, which is about as dumb as saying the best way to counter titans is more titans.
I dont think that any of the suggested "NO PVP" timers are the right way to go so I can't say I have the solution but I do agree it is a problem. I think allowing you some form of rudimentary intel as to what is/how much is logged off in a system is much closer to the way to go, but not perfect either. In regards to system sieges it is very rare when the defender doesnt already know someone is seeding capitals in their system, it isnt usually a surprise as much as a " you know its coming just not when" situation, So i dont think this additional intel will have a significant impact on this.
If you want to gank someone, at least having to be logged in prior to the gank allows the people to see you and maybe be ready/able to fight back. Even if your fleets at a deep safe combat scanners are likely to pick it out and so your not completely surprised when a blob lands on your pve fleet.
If I want to hide a large capital fleet, force them to pay for their covertness, having to fit a cloak into their entire fleet is the price one should have to pay if i want my fleet to be cloaked, logging off makes it too simple
Being logged in for PvP in general is not a requirement for this game. Example, people engaged in the markets may often be AFK or not even logged in and are making isk, influencing the game, and yes...engaged in PvP.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Malikai Larios
Thats a nice everything you have there Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.17 17:51:00 -
[82] - Quote
easiest solution, remove auto-warp to last location.
you can still logoff and not show in local, but when you login your not sent directly to where your dictor/hic is already sitting, or directly back into the middle of an anom. |
Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
2
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 01:18:00 -
[83] - Quote
I don't see why the game has to ewarp you back to where you logged off. What if you simply reappear where you end up after the log off warp, with no automatic warping after logging in? It doesn't do anything that couldn't have already been achieved by warping to a safe spot before logging off, and it somewhat prevents log-in traps. Personally while I don't think log-in traps are much of a problem (no experience here however), they are a rather absurd mechanic to begin with, and I wouldn't mind if they changed it. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
876
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 01:23:00 -
[84] - Quote
Nothing wrong with login traps tbh, complaining about them when bridges are in the game is a bit lol. |
Doddy
Dark-Rising
876
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 01:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Vexed Nova wrote: Someone mentioned Titan Bridges and blopsing. You can't lump the two [lo on/off & blops/titan bridge] together. They are fundamentally different even though their use and outcome are similar. Blopsing and Titan bridges are valid "tactics" while log on/off traps are a creative use of "game mechanics".
Logging out to avoid PVP was just as creative as well then? If Logging in to trap someone is acceptable, why was logging out to avoid PVP not?
Because pvp is the point of the game?
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plexjunky Inkura
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.08.18 12:48:00 -
[86] - Quote
Correct me if I am wrong but this issue is focused on Whs, where bridging and hot drops dont exist. It is rare in WH space for the fleet to actually be logged out at the gank location, they are usually logged off at a deep safe.
A fleet cautiously looks everywhere, finding no one starts to run sites, gankers log on a fleet, warp to site. kill everyone. Cloaks exist for this purpose, at least make that fleet work for their black ops style play.
Fleet hiding cloaked at a safe spot can be found if they forget to cloak, and can be fought. Requires effort on the ganking fleet's part. Has potential to generate pvp if the attackers screw up.
Fleet logged off at deep safe cant be scanned, found or fought. Requires no effort, just lounge around playing whatever till scout says hey guys log in. Has no potential for pvp.
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Alundil
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
283
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 16:25:00 -
[87] - Quote
ExookiZ wrote:I think a improtant factor in the issue many of you are overlooking is the risk VS reward.
A fleet logged off in a system is completely invulnerable, they cans it there with a claoked eye and wait to jump and gank a target with absolutely no chance of any real PVP unless they screw up. Any good attacker has intel on when they want to perform their gank, and since the flag changes they wait until their target is completely vulnerable. They log on, warp to X, kill everything, warp out, cloak up, then log. This isnt an issue of gate camps, or hot drops, its a method of completely safely ganking pve fleets and then running for the hills rather than actual PVP.
There is no PVP generated in this case, only a gank on some targets that had little to no chance of retaliating. The only possibly viable tactic to fight back is your own log on trap, which is about as dumb as saying the best way to counter titans is more titans.
I dont think that any of the suggested "NO PVP" timers are the right way to go so I can't say I have the solution but I do agree it is a problem. I think allowing you some form of rudimentary intel as to what is/how much is logged off in a system is much closer to the way to go, but not perfect either. In regards to system sieges it is very rare when the defender doesnt already know someone is seeding capitals in their system, it isnt usually a surprise as much as a " you know its coming just not when" situation, So i dont think this additional intel will have a significant impact on this.
If you want to gank someone, at least having to be logged in prior to the gank allows the people to see you and maybe be ready/able to fight back. Even if your fleets at a deep safe combat scanners are likely to pick it out and so your not completely surprised when a blob lands on your pve fleet.
If I want to hide a large capital fleet, force them to pay for their covertness, having to fit a cloak into their entire fleet is the price one should have to pay if i want my fleet to be cloaked, logging off makes it too simple
First off I'm laughing that people are splitting ganking out from PVP as if the two are completely different things.
The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target.
Fitting cloaks to capitals won't save you either since they are..... Capitals..... After all an will simply de-cloak and refit when ready.
There is PVP, market-PVP and I guess this would have to be deemed Dev-PVP. bravo. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
101
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 19:14:00 -
[88] - Quote
Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1574
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Posted - 2013.08.18 19:28:00 -
[89] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please
'Oh no, I have crashed. I'd better log back in.'
'Oh, bugger. That anti-logon trap feature they've put in isn't letting me log in. **** it, I'll go play tanks.' |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
101
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 19:30:00 -
[90] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please 'Oh no, I have crashed. I'd better log back in.' 'Oh, bugger. That anti-logon trap feature they've put in isn't letting me log in. **** it, I'll go play tanks.' that depends who's suggestion you are basing that on too. whoever suggested some sort of "forced wait to log-in" was wrong |
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Alundil
Seniors Clan Get Off My Lawn
284
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 19:32:00 -
[91] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please I didn't think this was that challenging of a concept.
If everyone has a delay to engaging in PvP regardless of their intent (ie: not a login trap) then everyone logging in to engage in PvP is being negatively impacted by a mechanic designed, allegedly, to address a specific action, namely login traps. Since the devs cannot ascertain a player's intent when logging in to Eve, this would be a terribly inaccurate mechanic in the first case.
It is a bad idea right out of the gate.
As a player who has spent most of my Eve time in wormholes and have been involved as the evictor a few times and luckily as an evictee only once I can say that failure to know who is doing things in your hole is always going to give you trouble (Any doctor could tell you that).
OP needs to expend more effort maintaining hole control and sound intel gathering techniques. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1574
|
Posted - 2013.08.18 19:57:00 -
[92] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please 'Oh no, I have crashed. I'd better log back in.' 'Oh, bugger. That anti-logon trap feature they've put in isn't letting me log in. **** it, I'll go play tanks.' that depends who's suggestion you are basing that on too. whoever suggested some sort of "forced wait to log-in" was wrong
Absolutely any suggestion that in any way inhibits PVP immediately after log on would have this exact same effect. |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
81
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 11:04:00 -
[93] - Quote
when i log back in, i wanna see a giant pink pony with yellow hair instead of my ship. |
Galen Silas
No-Mercy Spaceship Samurai
0
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 11:30:00 -
[94] - Quote
Being a fairly older player I have seen a lot of of crap moves pulled by different people here and there in EVE, and the log off trick has got to be one of the most rediculous and unaddressed "PVP" strategies in the game, IF you can call it a genuine strategy that's working as you think CCP designed it to do.
In order for something to be "working as intended" it needs to be something that is intended for use INSIDE of the game, which wouldn't make any sense for this considering you have to disconnect from the game waiting for someone to be tackled. Your outside of the game, It's a broken "mechanic" that as stated, needs to have some kind of a timer preventing people from doing this, because in doing this you have eliminated intel itself, Local chat is not an issue, these people are bypassing ALL means of being discovered simply by showing as offline.
I would even go as far to say that anyone who thinks otherwise on this either 1. Uses this tactic regularly and loves the thrill of cheap and easy kills involving minimal or no actual player intended skill or 2. They are not aware of the fact that something that is outside of being online in the game, and not directly part of the combat aspect cannot "work as intended" when applied to aid or assist said combat, i.e. using the onlining process used ONLY to enter the game as a tactic that was supposedly designed that way to get the jump on people.
Make a timer at least for those who log off in outer space to where they cannot openly aggress someone, unless someone aggress's them first, People in stations should not have a timer as they have to undock, and warp to the location desired. That's my two cents anyways and coming from engaging in and observing PVP experience's since 2005. |
seany1212
Tides of Silence Care Factor
226
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 11:42:00 -
[95] - Quote
Galen Silas wrote:Being a fairly older player I have seen a lot of of crap moves pulled by different people here and there in EVE, and the log off trick has got to be one of the most rediculous and unaddressed "PVP" strategies in the game, IF you can call it a genuine strategy that's working as you think CCP designed it to do.
In order for something to be "working as intended" it needs to be something that is intended for use INSIDE of the game, which wouldn't make any sense for this considering you have to disconnect from the game waiting for someone to be tackled. Your outside of the game, It's a broken "mechanic" that as stated, needs to have some kind of a timer preventing people from doing this, because in doing this you have eliminated intel itself, Local chat is not an issue, these people are bypassing ALL means of being discovered simply by showing as offline.
I would even go as far to say that anyone who thinks otherwise on this either 1. Uses this tactic regularly and loves the thrill of cheap and easy kills involving minimal or no actual player intended skill or 2. They are not aware of the fact that something that is outside of being online in the game, and not directly part of the combat aspect cannot "work as intended" when applied to aid or assist said combat, i.e. using the onlining process used ONLY to enter the game as a tactic that was supposedly designed that way to get the jump on people.
Make a timer at least for those who log off in outer space to where they cannot openly aggress someone, unless someone aggress's them first, People in stations should not have a timer as they have to undock, and warp to the location desired. That's my two cents anyways and coming from engaging in and observing PVP experience's since 2005.
You can hardly call dropping on frigates in 10 man gang's 'PVP'.
You stated local chat as not being the issue yet how would you know the aggressors had logged in if it was not for local chat? The only issue these topics come up in is in null sec, I've still yet to see someone in low, high or wormholes creating endless threads about log-on traps, afk cloakers and keeping/removing local. Null sec is supposed to be hard mode, the 'Happy Tree Friends' version of 'My Little Pony' and yet people constantly complain about how they died, IN NULL OF ALL PLACES |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
89
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Posted - 2013.08.21 11:49:00 -
[96] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Rowells wrote:Alundil wrote:The log off/on PVP timer mechanics being suggested will negatively impact EVERYONE not just the OP's intended target. elaborate more on that please 'Oh no, I have crashed. I'd better log back in.' 'Oh, bugger. That anti-logon trap feature they've put in isn't letting me log in. **** it, I'll go play tanks.'
Simply adding a 1-2 minute timer that starts when you last logged off. If you are still in the window, you don't get the PVP **** block mechanic.
Hentes Zsemle wrote: Btw if you think this is a riskless way of pvp, you are stupid.
Explain to me then how your ship is at risk when you are logged off, waiting for something to come along that you know you will gank? Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
82
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 11:57:00 -
[97] - Quote
we are still discussing something that aint an issue to start with... |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1736
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 12:57:00 -
[98] - Quote
plexjunky Inkura wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but this issue is focused on Whs, where bridging and hot drops dont exist. It is rare in WH space for the fleet to actually be logged out at the gank location, they are usually logged off at a deep safe.
A fleet cautiously looks everywhere, finding no one starts to run sites, gankers log on a fleet, warp to site. kill everyone. Cloaks exist for this purpose, at least make that fleet work for their black ops style play.
Fleet hiding cloaked at a safe spot can be found if they forget to cloak, and can be fought. Requires effort on the ganking fleet's part. Has potential to generate pvp if the attackers screw up.
Fleet logged off at deep safe cant be scanned, found or fought. Requires no effort, just lounge around playing whatever till scout says hey guys log in. Has no potential for pvp.
Tell me more about how it requires "no effort" to seed numerous capital ships into enemy wormholes and watch them for weeks for an opportune moment, mr noob corp. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system.
I cover this in more detail here. Would you like to know more? |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
170
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Nothing wrong with login traps tbh, complaining about them when bridges are in the game is a bit lol. agreed on this, if we adress the login trap, let's adress the drops too.
no more warp on login back in? ok, but when exiting a jump bridge to a cyno, you appear in a random part of the destination system, individually.
i like to see how ppl from various alliances, who spend muchof their time waiting on a titan to hotdrop a few cuisers, are whining when it comes to actually do something similar to them: being able to get them without advertising our presence.... this by itself tells it all i think... |
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ShadowandLight
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
135
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Posted - 2013.08.21 13:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here.
Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post....
Which I assume you didnt read. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
170
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:32:00 -
[102] - Quote
TheGunslinger42 wrote:plexjunky Inkura wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but this issue is focused on Whs, where bridging and hot drops dont exist. It is rare in WH space for the fleet to actually be logged out at the gank location, they are usually logged off at a deep safe.
A fleet cautiously looks everywhere, finding no one starts to run sites, gankers log on a fleet, warp to site. kill everyone. Cloaks exist for this purpose, at least make that fleet work for their black ops style play.
Fleet hiding cloaked at a safe spot can be found if they forget to cloak, and can be fought. Requires effort on the ganking fleet's part. Has potential to generate pvp if the attackers screw up.
Fleet logged off at deep safe cant be scanned, found or fought. Requires no effort, just lounge around playing whatever till scout says hey guys log in. Has no potential for pvp.
Tell me more about how it requires "no effort" to seed numerous capital ships into enemy wormholes and watch them for weeks for an opportune moment, mr noob corp. this, and the fact that it is the ONLY way to actually invade a WH, because of the mass restriction vs the HP pool of the various structures, being unable to seed cap and log them of in a WH would mean that the first to get in will remain the holder forever.
whoever took part in invading (or trying to) a WH would know this.... |
Evanga
Way So Mad Axiomatic Dominion
83
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 13:34:00 -
[103] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here. Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post.... Which I assume you didnt read.
you still think your point is valid and that all others are incorrect? |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 14:13:00 -
[104] - Quote
ShadowandLight wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Logoffski's are a neccessary evil, because local chat giving players free real-time intel on who is in system, up to the second, breaks game balance and gives them too much information on when an enemy enters system. I cover this in more detail here. Explain how local chat is a factor in wormholes.... which was the original scenario presented in the very 1st post.... Which I assume you didnt read.
The subject of the thread is 'log-in traps' not 'WH log in traps', but I accept your point.
It is worth adding that logoffski's are a pain (for agressor and defender) not just in WH's, but heavily in use in hisec, losec and null also. THERE they can be better addressed by delaying local chat updates, as covered in another thread.
I return you to your WH centric programming... Would you like to know more? |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
272
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 14:16:00 -
[105] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
And whats your suggestion, removing it?
Doing so would result in a complete scorched earth no mans land in nullsec, because, say it with me, nullsec is not wormhole space. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
141
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 14:31:00 -
[106] - Quote
M1k3y Koontz wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Do me a favor, step back and ask yourself "Why would people go to such extraordinary lengths to perform this log on trap"?
The answer is pretty straight forward: Currently our omniscient intel system allows you to instantly identify hostiles in system. If you want to hide your numbers/forces, you have two choices: Log them off, or cyno them in.
Really, it is NOT log in traps that need to be addressed, as they are just an extreme example of players attempting to bypass our games most controversial mechanic: Local Chat.
It is local chat that should be addressed!
And whats your suggestion, removing it? Doing so would result in a complete scorched earth no mans land in nullsec, because, say it with me, nullsec is not wormhole space.
Local chat should be that, a chat interface, not a realtime intel tool with 100% accuracy and timeliness that gives a player 'free' and 'brainless' safety. i.e. +1 local, dock up. The ideas re: remedy are in another thread.
But, theres this thing called D-SCAN, and another thing called scouts -- that you can put on gates or jump-in/out points. Local as a zero-effort 100% realtime/accurate intel tool must die in a fire. It was badly implemented as such, and the DEV that did it should feel bad for the crutch-for-the-brainless he has now created... Would you like to know more? |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
272
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 14:33:00 -
[107] - Quote
Acidictadpole wrote:Phaade wrote:Kallie Rae wrote:And the problem here is? You don't think people should be able to log in and attack people right away?
You clearly have not jumped into a bubble with 1 cloaky alt (the only one in local) off gate only to have 25 people log in and drop on you. It's really, really dumb. So basically you assumed you were safe when you really weren't. That sounds like user error to me. This is no different than having a titan bridge a fleet on top of you, except that it doesn't require a Titan. It's a little shameful that people will do it, but I'd hardly consider it an exploit, since the same effect can be had with an in-game item.
The difference between a titan bridge and logon trap, and the main complaint it seems, is that there is no way to detect a logon trap, whereas a fleet sitting on a titan can be scouted. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
105
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Absolutely any suggestion that in any way inhibits PVP immediately after log on would have this exact same effect.
Rowells wrote:i think a short invulnerability timer (like at stations) should be implemented. this would not inhibit any pvp whatsoever. it's all up to the pilot whether he wants to wait it out. suggested it on first page. |
monkfish1234
The Knights of Spamalot The Methodical Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.08.21 15:32:00 -
[109] - Quote
While I understand that being caught in a log-in trap is a bit of pain in the arse, there is already a limited time between when that player first enters the system and pops up in local, and he can e-warp back to where he logged out, and then tackled you.
Now if he just appeared in space next to you i could see your argument, but really the argument here is if the amount of time you are given to react to it is long enough. to which i'd probably answer yes it is. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1737
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:42:00 -
[110] - Quote
In k-space it'd be easy enough to evade the majority of log on traps by staying aligned and watching local. If you see a new name enter warp and you'll be away before their e-warp finishes. If you're scrambled by a rat or something then thats unlucky but oh well |
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Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
283
|
Posted - 2013.08.21 15:49:00 -
[111] - Quote
Logon traps... will it become the new 'nerf AFK cloaking' topic? 6 pages and growing. Keep going guys!! I'm sure you will be able to find a fix for something which isn't broken!!! GOGOGOGOGOGOGO |
Vrenth
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
27
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Posted - 2013.08.21 23:40:00 -
[112] - Quote
TBH I think login traps should be made easier. The whole warp-out thing is silly. Just have your ship disappear in space and reappear in the same place instantly. I didn't put eve on my solid state drive for nothing. |
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