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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2005.12.28 12:42:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Well first of all, a medium smartbomb can't kill a torp. Torps have 240 hitpoints, a tech 2 smartbomb does only 140 damage. Second would be the fitting, a medium smartbomb takes 50 cpu, while a large takes 80. I have to use named cap relays and cpu implant just to fit all my guns. Dropping down to 6 guns / 2 smartbombs doesn't work without sacrificing either a part of your tank for a co-proc or your dps by using tech 1.
Third problem with this assumption is that you're going to drop the ravens dps long enough to tank it. But you've already gimped a significant portion of your damage too. So assuming all best circumstances, where you actually nail a few missiles (when in reality you will get hit before you see them at that range), all you've done is prolonged the fight, not changed the outcome.
Fourth problem is prolonging the fight means running out of cap. Even without smartbombs, the drain from two large reps, hardeners, webber, scrambler and 7 blasters going non-stop is higher than a heavy injector with 800 charges can boost. With perfect micromanagement, and timing, you might be lucky enough to avoid hitting the 0 cap mark, where your guns and mods start to turn off. Two large smartbombs with Energy Pulse Weapons V is roughly 53.3 cap per second. Not even a chance.
And of course, the most obvious reason is you'd be nuking your drones, because you are so close to your target. And taking away one of the few advantages the Megathron has at that range is the last thing you want to do.
Fact is, smartbombs are better anti-drone weapons than anti-missile screens. Defenders, if they were slightly crappy before, they're even worse now.
Missile splash is the answer to all Raven whines. If people wanna set off massive thermonuclear warheads in front of their faces, then I say let them.
that's why you fit 2 smarties.
1. they can kill the torps if timed right (to match the raven rof), but that is not easy
2. they damage the raven as you are in smart bomb range anyway, so you don't loose DPS that much (EM smarties would be good, complement your damage output)
3. they prevent the raven from using drones also, so you lower it's damage output even more
the main poblem is cap, I don't know if you can sustain this long enough to kill the raven. oh, EW anyone ? you get free 20 seconds to fire back. and this is useful against turret ships as well.
one question for the mega experts ... why don't you mix weapons ? balsters+torps maybe ? don't even try the DPS answer, it obviously is hurting you in current situation.
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.12.28 12:48:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 28/12/2005 12:50:38
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
that's why you fit 2 smarties.
1. they can kill the torps if timed right (to match the raven rof), but that is not easy
2. they damage the raven as you are in smart bomb range anyway, so you don't loose DPS that much (EM smarties would be good, complement your damage output)
3. they prevent the raven from using drones also, so you lower it's damage output even more
the main poblem is cap, I don't know if you can sustain this long enough to kill the raven. oh, EW anyone ? you get free 20 seconds to fire back. and this is useful against turret ships as well.
You can definitely do it, at least in an AC tempest. During the period when nos were busted on the test server, I fit two smart bombs on my AC tempest and took out every single torpedo a raven fired at me, and completely owned him. I had a cap injector to help sustain my tank (not that I needed it for that) and my smartbombs. I got a convo after his raven exploded asking if he even hit me at all, which I was forced to reply "No" to.
EDIT: One important note, however, is that he wasn't spreading out his fire. He was firing all of his torps at once, which made him vulnerable to the smartbomb. Volleying in this way is usually a good thing, since it provides for better burst damage, which can end the fight more quickly. What the raven pilot in question *should've* done the moment he saw I was using smartbombs, however, is spread out his fire so some of the torps hit (i.e. weren't smartbombed). He probably would've still lost, but it would've been a lot closer.
-Wrayeth
Go away. |
Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 12:56:00 -
[123]
Make torpedos unguided like they shoud be at first place. This means they would fly in a straight line.
So no hiting small targets or moving at long range.
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:01:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Ubijalec
Make torpedos unguided like they shoud be at first place. This means they would fly in a straight line.
So no hiting small targets or moving at long range.
or remove torps at all ? they would not hit anything like that, even an orbiting bs could evade them up close ... get real. this is not a space sim game, you cannot guide your ship with precision.
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well ... |
Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:12:00 -
[125]
Thads my point! BS in web range is sitting duck, so you can hit it. frigates and crusers are different story.
And you don`t need to stear ship at thad point. Just fire missile at thad point.
BTW: Stop whining about Raven! Missiles must be better than guns!
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:14:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Ubijalec
Thads my point! BS in web range is sitting duck, so you can hit it. frigates and crusers are different story.
And you don`t need to stear ship at thad point. Just fire missile at thad point.
BTW: Stop whining about Raven! Missiles must be better than guns!
(pound, pound) This is the police! Step away from the *****-pipe and place your hands on your head!
-Wrayeth
Go away. |
LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:18:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Ubijalec
Thads my point! BS in web range is sitting duck, so you can hit it. frigates and crusers are different story.
And you don`t need to stear ship at thad point. Just fire missile at thad point.
BTW: Stop whining about Raven! Missiles must be better than guns!
Yes, i fly caldari, make me overpowered...
HatePeace LoveWar[ATUK] >
they ebayed the bs for
grain
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Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:21:00 -
[128]
You don`t need to be Caldari to fly Caldari ships.
And for you whiners: It`s not thad hard to kill Raven.
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darth solo
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:35:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Ubijalec
Thads my point! BS in web range is sitting duck, so you can hit it. frigates and crusers are different story.
And you don`t need to stear ship at thad point. Just fire missile at thad point.
BTW: Stop whining about Raven! Missiles must be better than guns!
it annoys me when ppl say we are whining, we are discussing.
If u are lucky enough to land 5k from a Raven in a close range mega or tempest you should be confident of a win, if u have to approach from 20k the fight should be in favour of the Raven...
It doesnt work this way, the raven always has the advantage.. thats the problem and is why the ballance is of.
d solo.
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:38:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 28/12/2005 13:39:07
Originally by: darth solo
it annoys me when ppl say we are whining, we are discussing.
If u are lucky enough to land 5k from a Raven in a close range mega or tempest you should be confident of a win, if u have to approach from 20k the fight should be in favour of the Raven...
It doesnt work this way, the raven always has the advantage.. thats the problem and is why the ballance is of.
d solo.
Ah, but why should you always be confident of a win if you land within 5km? Remember, your ship is useful against cruisers, too, and is also a very good long-range platform. The raven's not good at all when it comes to cruisers, long range, and/or groups - the lack of instant damage makes focused fire impossible, and the sig penalty makes cruisers rather difficult to kill when set up properly.
The only thing a raven's truly good at is short range vs. another battleship.
-Wrayeth
Go away. |
Sandokan
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:48:00 -
[131]
Quote:
this breaks my heart but i do also have torps lvl 5 and caldari bs lvl 5.. i think im being forced into skilling for that, goodbye 15mill gunnery.
So what, have missiles guys not needed to train both skills with the nerf?
I have 7.5mil in gunnery and 5mil in missiles, befor missiles skills been trained up after the nerf, we were not even able to kill a other BS close rang. But then the told us to stop whining and adapt.
We have! So re-think your fittings like Raven pilots have done alot.
Its always been Raven pilots that have suffering from nerfs there and here.
Yea... need a win button
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Aequitas Veritas
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Posted - 2005.12.28 13:58:00 -
[132]
Id like my Raven to be good for anything but 1 vs 1 :(
Victuri te Salutant |
Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:02:00 -
[133]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Or how about putting a 5km radius splash damage range on torps, just to the person that fired them.
King Liu is RIGHT!!
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:03:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Sarmaul on 28/12/2005 14:03:42
The problem is, a turret does diminished damage at a longer range (past optimal), while missiles do full damage at any range they can hit at. This means a blasterthron or autopest starting at 15k will be doing a lot less than their maximum DPS, while the raven will be doing full damage all the time.
The solution? Simple - have missiles do damage inversely proportional to how turrets do damage. With turrets, closer = better, but change missiles so that they do more damage the longer they've been flying for. It means close-ranged turret ships know that if they charge into the raven, it's damage will be reduced enough to have a good chance of defeating it, while the Raven pilot knows that if he keeps his distance, he will still win the fight.
Things this does/solve:
1) Removes the idiot proofing from Tank'n'Gank Ravens
2) Creates a nice axis/stratagy/nemesis (can't think of the proper word) between turrets and launchers - one tries to keep the range, the other close it.
3) Gives Raven pilots a reason to fit speed mods and webs instead of a 6 mid-slot tank.
4) Will force turret ships to fit a MWD in order to push through the web
5) Makes the game more interesting and tactical
6) CCP can make more skills for people to grind out
Just an idea, but one that solves the current problems.
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Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP |
IRTEHWINTBH
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:22:00 -
[135]
Edited by: IRTEHWINTBH on 28/12/2005 14:22:26
Originally by: Grigori Sokolov
And what exactly is your point...? Apparently I missed it.
Grigori, Stop haunting this alt.. Its not the allience/corp/RP forum ffs.. Im not trolling or whatever its called.
So why exactly is it, you cant stick to the point(The threads subject) and take your alt hate somewhere else(Allience forum for an example).
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Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:22:00 -
[136]
Sarmaul
I don`t think you get it. Guns fire there payload at the target. Missiles carry there payload to the target. This two things are different, so behaviour of damage must me different.
I know balanching this in game is not easy.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:28:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ubijalec
Sarmaul
I don`t think you get it. Guns fire there payload at the target. Missiles carry there payload to the target. This two things are different, so behaviour of damage must me different.
I know balanching this in game is not easy.
Like I said, the behaviour of the damage is different. In fact, completely opposite to turrets. I would be happy for missiles to have even more of a speed boost if it were implemented.
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Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP |
IRTEHWINTBH
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:30:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Ubijalec
You don`t need to be Caldari to fly Caldari ships.
And for you whiners: It`s not thad hard to kill Raven.
We are not WHINING you friggin dumb *** ... We are discussing!
Know the difference.
The smartbomb option is not a reailty for us BlasterThron users.. The cpu usage of smartbombs is simply too high, and their cap drain is ALSO simply to high to fit in.. Just as Digital communist just explained.
New defenders.. Hmm.. i say go for it, but Blasters(maybe AC's too, dunno really) needs some love cpu/cap wise.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:33:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Ubijalec
You don`t need to be Caldari to fly Caldari ships.
We know that, it's just that some people have millions of skillpoints in a particular race's ships and guns, and they can be beaten by someone with 1/2 the skillpoints in a Raven.
If CCP wanted everyone in Ravens, the Megathron, Tempest, Geddon, Apoc, etc wouldn't exist.
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Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP |
Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:47:00 -
[140]
You know, the funny thing is that ravens are the same as they were pre-patch for the most part - the only major difference is that they run two hardeners instead of three, which allows them to actually fit a warp scrambler.
-Wrayeth
Go away. |
Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:49:00 -
[141]
Anyone ever wondered why some ppl dont fly a raven even if its such a good close range ship?
------
BlogÖ |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:49:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Wrayeth
You know, the funny thing is that ravens are the same as they were pre-patch for the most part - the only major difference is that they run two hardeners instead of three, which allows them to actually fit a warp scrambler.
And extenders got a massive reduction in fitting requirements, along with damage controls being boosted
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Please make Minmatar overpowered, CCP |
LordChaos
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:54:00 -
[143]
Bhaalgron FTW , owns all in close range :) no cap nothing lol even though the raven is the only one that can shoot with no cap lol
lol i know faction ships are not in this topic 
anyways back to the topic dont think raven is overpowering as u all people think, it can be beaten in close range.
Have to test Apoc with 8 Mega Pulses 2 on it and see how it works. Point is finding the caldari with good skills in Raven lol. (never liked caldari lol only the Scorp/BB :))
anyways have to test it and see.
but if they say a BlasterThron cant beat a raven at close range then their is something wrong.
anyways i will have to test it and see before saying facts.
The Master Of Chaos
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:56:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Ubijalec
You don`t need to be Caldari to fly Caldari ships.
And for you whiners: It`s not thad hard to kill Raven.
I cannot kill (FIX) raven with interceptor... i've killed any other bs there...
HatePeace LoveWar[ATUK] >
they ebayed the bs for
grain
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Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 14:57:00 -
[145]
IRTEHWINTBH
Thads discussing what your writing? I only sea how is imposible to kill Raven and oh and ah. But nothing what would look like discussing.
Give me some proposal, theory or stop being smart.
Calling me dump **** is nothing more then whining, flaming.
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Dark PIne
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Posted - 2005.12.28 15:00:00 -
[146]
Originally by: IRTEHWINTBH
The smartbomb option is not a reailty for us BlasterThron users.. The cpu usage of smartbombs is simply too high, and their cap drain is ALSO simply to high to fit in.. Just as Digital communist just explained.
So you are not really looking for ways to counter Raven, but you are looking for a fit to counter Raven in addition to every other BS?
If you want to counter a specific threat, you *have to* sacrifice something.
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Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 15:00:00 -
[147]
Lukec
Killing any BS with frigate should not happend. Only if BS pilot is big noob.
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.12.28 15:00:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 28/12/2005 15:01:43
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Wrayeth
You know, the funny thing is that ravens are the same as they were pre-patch for the most part - the only major difference is that they run two hardeners instead of three, which allows them to actually fit a warp scrambler.
And extenders got a massive reduction in fitting requirements, along with damage controls being boosted
I'll grant you that extenders got a reduction in fitting requirements, but all of the setups I've seen (except the passive ones) don't rely on them, anyway.
As for the damage controls, combine one of those with the 2 invulnerability fields and you get a tank that's slightly more effective than it was previously, only 5% more on EM, 3% more on thermal, 2% more kinetic, and 20% more on explosive - and the latter's rather uncommon.
EDIT: Forgot to add that torps got reduced in size, which just means more can be carried, and the same with cap booster charges, which can be used by any battleship with a free midslot.
-Wrayeth
Go away. |
Antic
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Posted - 2005.12.28 15:04:00 -
[149]
if CCP does what the people here wants. Then the raven needs a significant boost against both small targets and at range. Its already useless in fleets cus its damage isnt instant so it cant contribute to focused fire. Its also useless compared to turret ships against cruisers and below. Also due to the state of cruises its also useless at range.
1 vs 1 battleship combat is all the raven has. And that isnt much in itself to be honnest. Id rather have all the above than the 1 vs 1 battleship capability. But atelast its something.
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Ubijalec
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Posted - 2005.12.28 15:05:00 -
[150]
Antic
Signed!
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