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Proposal: Remove "Core" Skills

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FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 178	Posted - 2013.08.28 00:13:00 - [1] - Quote In order to somewhat level the playing field between new characters and old, and ultimately make Eve a more satisfying experience for all, I propose removing or changing many of the "core" skills. Ideally, these skills would be completely removed from the game, all SP trained in those skills would be refunded to the player, and the advantages of having those skills would be applied to the base stats for all ships. Just as we got rid of learning skills so that we didn't have new players waiting six months to be able to min/max training, so too, we should pare down the "core" skills to level the playing field. This means removing the following skills: Electronics, Targeting, Multitasking, Signature Analysis, Engineering, Energy Systems Operation, Energy Management, Shield Management, Shield Operations, Hull Upgrades, Mechanics, Evasive Maneuvering, Navigation, and Warp Drive Operation. * Hull Upgrades - change it to Mechanics Upgrades, which affects the fitting attributes of armor tanking modules, decreasing PG or CPU need per level (as with Engineering Upgrades or Shield Upgrades) * Navigation - change it to Propulsion Upgrades, which affects the fitting attributes of propulsion modules, decreasing PG or CPU need per level ( as with Engineering Upgrades or Shield Upgrades) As mentioned, the benefits of these skills would be applied to all ships. So, there would be no loss in ship effectiveness from this change. All of these skills apply to all ships, at all times. Together, they constitute a formidable block of skills that separate new players from experienced ones. When you add it all up, these skills form a ~129-day barrier of training skills that make your ships better, but do not really open up any new fun (~110 days if a player trains Cybernetics IV and can afford a set of +4 implants right away). They are the bulk of the grind of skill-training in Eve, without the benefit of anticipating that lovely day when you can fly your shiny new spaceship. What separates these skills from other skills is that they do not affect modules directly. They do not make modules more effective, or directly easier to fit. They are generalized skills. Players would still have to specialize in specific ship classes, weapon systems, etc. I am okay with a certain amount of delay training "boring" skills - that is why I have left in Spaceship Command, Advanced Spaceship Command, and Capital Ships. If it is necessary for some reason to delay entry into larger ship classes, I would be okay with increasing the training time multiplier for some skills (e.g. Heavy Assault Ships goes from 6x multiplier to 8x). Any skills/modules/etc that are currently unlocked by these skills would have the prerequisites shifted over to something else. This change continues the idea that an old player has the advantage of more options, but a specialized newer player can still be as good in a specific role. It means that a new player can be fully effective in a specific ship sooner, which should increase the fun-factor. It makes the new player more effective approximately 4 months sooner than he is at present. Downsides include that many players will have a ton of SP available for reallocation (~5.6m SP if all the above skills were removed and a player had trained them all to Level V). It will also be easier to train effective alts much faster. Some may see these things as an upside... Additionally, the potential SP blocks for Intelligence/Memory are disproportionately hit by this change - I am okay with that. Thoughts? Criticism? Flames?
Eric Raeder No Fee Too High 63	Posted - 2013.08.28 00:20:00 - [2] - Quote Well, if you really want to level the playing field, why not just remove skills and training and attributes from the game completely?
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 178	Posted - 2013.08.28 00:27:00 - [3] - Quote Eric Raeder wrote: Well, if you really want to level the playing field, why not just remove skills and training and attributes from the game completely? I wouldn't want to remove skill training completely, since then you take away the player development progression aspect of the MMORPG. One of the special things about Eve is that you can get "better" (gain more SP) even when you are not able to play the game. I believe, however, that a large group of generalized skills that applies to all ships does not keep players actively engaged in the game in the same way that waiting two weeks to be able to fly a cool new spaceship effectively does. Rather, it creates a perceived barrier to entry into the full world of Eve. At this point, I would be totally fine with removing attribute implants completely from the game (except for the fact that I love seeing them on pod killmails).
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 1473	Posted - 2013.08.28 00:40:00 - [4] - Quote Skill points mean very little in terms of skill, once you have propulsion jamming IV you are on equal terms for propulsion jamming as even a 10 year vet. The same goes for all skills. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 433	Posted - 2013.08.28 02:21:00 - [5] - Quote This is kind of a petty request. I mean they do give you some levels free on character creation. I thought learning skills were a good idea because they rewarded long term play... but removing skills? Some people won't be satified 'til they remove one of the C's from CCP. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 221	Posted - 2013.08.28 03:04:00 - [6] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Skill points mean very little in terms of skill, once you have propulsion jamming IV you are on equal terms for propulsion jamming as even a 10 year vet. The same goes for all skills. high skills in the cores don't even guarantee an edge. Low skill levels on paper but can actually fly goes along way in eve I used to pvp, rl went to crap freetime wise so now I do spots of pve in empire. This empire break has gone on for 2 years lol. I rounded alot of these skills to 5 in empire. And I know somewhere there are very low skill level (on paper) players who while lacking my uber skills on paper actually fly frigs and cruisers daily who will whoop my ass. Skill level 5 does you no good if you fly like an idiot. I am so rusty at this point...I'll put myself in that idiot class lol. Dead horse but a noob has to learn like older players learned coming up what they need right now right now and what to put off too later skill and level wise. The targeting stuff for example. Unless a logi or fleet bs pilot even just 3-4 targets is fine to start and target adding skills are low priority. If your frigate or cruisier is jumped by 8 people....targetting all of them them ain't stopping the can of whoop ass about to be opened on you. If all you have is 3 targets...well kill them off 3 at a time. Unless a pro pvp'er naturally tbh I got this noob dying after 1-2 targets in anyway....targetting 6 ships at once not going to make this go any better. Hell if our noob has the grand goal of pve tengu (or other t3) spamming 4 life....jsut write off the skills to add numbers of targets. Get up to 5 targets and done. Any more a waste.
Solutio Letum Terpene Conglomerate 184	Posted - 2013.08.28 04:15:00 - [7] - Quote What i like is skills like logistics V, it does so much and so little at the same time. Also i think the op means he wants more free SP? right? i mean i did not TL;DR this post at all!.... edit: just to late
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 178	Posted - 2013.08.28 04:20:00 - [8] - Quote Solutio Letum wrote: What i like is skills like logistics V, it does so much and so little at the same time. Also i think the op means he wants more free SP? right? i mean i did not TL;DR this post at all!.... edit: just to late Who doesn't want more free SP? Remember the ancient and honorable Lex Malcanis: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of 'new players', that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." In this case, I honestly think it benefits both old and new players.
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 1473	Posted - 2013.08.28 04:42:00 - [9] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: In this case, I honestly think it benefits both old and new players. By your logic that SP matter it would benefit older players much more than new players as they would get tons of unallocated SP that the newer players would barely get. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement
Jeinvay Kunsu 5ER3NITY INC Apocalypse Now. 5	Posted - 2013.08.28 05:45:00 - [10] - Quote No. That's all i have to say about your Proposal. No.

Vizvig Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death 118	Posted - 2013.08.28 05:46:00 - [11] - Quote Look at eve official eve trailers, and at eve mon PB. Feel difference.
suid0 Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion 55	Posted - 2013.08.28 07:05:00 - [12] - Quote Every skill in the game is a core skill for something... the entire enemy support fleet is dead except for one interdictor a titan could easily finish off with drones -á--áCommander Ted
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 566	Posted - 2013.08.28 09:35:00 - [13] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: In order to somewhat level the playing field between new characters and old, and ultimately make Eve a more satisfying experience for all, I propose removing or changing many of the "core" skills..... Don't be daft. You're not leveling the playing field at all. You're giving all the vets the ability to further the gap between them and the new players with all that extra sp you're giving them. The core skills are needed for character progression and a general understanding of the game. Removing them does nothing to lessen the perceived gap between old and new players, a gap which in fact is much smaller than you seem to think. This is a bad idea and as such won't gain any traction.
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 179	Posted - 2013.08.28 13:49:00 - [14] - Quote Zan Shiro wrote: The targeting stuff for example. Unless a logi or fleet bs pilot even just 3-4 targets is fine to start and target adding skills are low priority. If your frigate or cruisier is jumped by 8 people....targetting all of them them ain't stopping the can of whoop ass about to be opened on you. If all you have is 3 targets...well kill them off 3 at a time. Unless a pro pvp'er naturally tbh I got this noob dying after 1-2 targets in anyway....targetting 6 ships at once not going to make this go any better. Hell if our noob has the grand goal of pve tengu (or other t3) spamming 4 life....jsut write off the skills to add numbers of targets. Get up to 5 targets and done. Any more a waste. To me this is an even stronger argument to remove Targeting and Multitasking. Multitasking has no value at all in the game when trained past level 3. Just get rid of the time sink built into this skill line and let every ship target the max number it can target right from day one.
Elizabeth Aideron GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 136	Posted - 2013.08.28 13:54:00 - [15] - Quote IIRC you can if you use a signal amplifier.
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 179	Posted - 2013.08.28 14:09:00 - [16] - Quote Tchulen wrote: FT Diomedes wrote: In order to somewhat level the playing field between new characters and old, and ultimately make Eve a more satisfying experience for all, I propose removing or changing many of the "core" skills..... You're giving all the vets the ability to further the gap between them and the new players with all that extra sp you're giving them. The core skills are needed for character progression and a general understanding of the game. I'll address this in two parts, because I think part of it is valid. For a player like me, 5.6m SP is not that much relatively speaking. I'm sitting at 140m SP. So, letting me redistribute ~4% of my SP is really a relatively small advantage. It means I get another Carrier Skill to Level V and polish off Fighters V a bit sooner. For the new player, however, you are giving him a group of skills free and clear, without any increased clone cost, that constitutes ~25% of the skills he will be told to max out in the first year (yes, I get that some of the skills I listed are not necessary to max out). Now, the part that I think is valid is that training these skills in capacitor management may give new players a better understanding of the importance of managing their cap. Potentially valid point. With that said, having recently done the tutorial on a new account (just to see what the new player experience was like), I see the point you are making, but I think the tutorial does an effective job imparting this lesson without making a new player put off flying new spaceships until he can get his core skills trained. As to the other criticism, I totally understand that SP isn't everything - I have been playing this game for a long time. I know how to avoid being blapped as I spiral in for the tackle. I know how to manage my cap, manage my aggro timer, stay generally calm, and trust my corp mates. I don't claim to be an elite solo samurai. I also don't expect newbies to do that - I expect them to experience the thrill of a kid awaiting Christmas - only four days until I can fly Gallente Cruisers! I'd like to take away some of the shock of "I really need to train all these other skills to even begin fitting this ship?" Those of us on this forum are some of the few who got hooked on Eve despite the challenges. I stuck with Eve despite training learning skills for six months, despite having a terrible tutorial, despite having to play barefoot in the snow while rats gnawed at my extremities (part of this may be untrue). But just because we sucked it up and spent 130 days training skills that it makes sense for our ships to already possess right out of the box, doesn't mean that Eve wouldn't be a better place without that time sink.
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 179	Posted - 2013.08.28 14:18:00 - [17] - Quote Elizabeth Aideron wrote: IIRC you can if you use a signal amplifier. Yes, or an Auto Targeting System, which also adds two max targets for each one you fit. Most fleet logistics ships find something much more useful than either of those modules.
Domanique Altares Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 1191	Posted - 2013.08.28 15:20:00 - [18] - Quote I'm going to have to give this one a nice, big 'No' of disapproval. Neither of my accounts needs a pile of unallocated SP that I can use to get over on new folks in a much more meaningful fashion. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter.
TheBlueMonkey Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 499	Posted - 2013.08.28 15:40:00 - [19] - Quote hell no I was disappointed when learning skills were removed because like others have said they rewarded those with long term goals. Unfortunately the foolish members of the game too this idea and just told all new players that they NEEDED lvl 5 in all training skills before anything else or it was pointless (way to scare people off dumbasses, the learning skills were about balancing short term goals and long term goals for the individual, not maximizing sp/ph for everyone). Core skills do the same thing, do you train up this core skill or do you focus on something specific to the ship you're currently flying, or do you adapt your fit to better utilise your skills? Better yet, do you get more friends and fly as a fleet? This would also be horrible for new players because someone like me would get millions of sp back where as a new player would get a few thousand. This ranks up there with things like "let us remap our sp", seriously, live with the consequences of your actions the same as the rest of us. Do I like the 4.5mil I have in industry? no. Do I moan about it? no
Alduin666 Shikkoken MIS Auxiliaries Kadeshians 20	Posted - 2013.08.28 17:08:00 - [20] - Quote Since I'm on a game balancing role . . . let me talk about this from a balancing standpoint. Eve is a game that emphasizes character specialization and dedication/patients. A jack-of-all trades in Eve is rather mediocre when it comes down to it compared to someone who is specialized in what they do. Getting those core skills to the level you prefer helps out as you can pick and choose what skills are important to you. If you wanted to get the max CPU/PG/Capacitor while training skills that decreased module PG and CPU might help you get more fitting but another player might have preferred to train their support gunnery skills or refining skills up, thus making the specialization between you and said player even greater. When it all comes down to it the 50(ish)days you take to train your Standard Core Cert is a time sink. Other MMO's make their time sinks in the form of mindless grinding for XP and end game loot drops that aren't available on the end game 'npc 133T gear' market. CCP chose to make their time sink time based so that the player can free up time to take part in the oh so famous dynamic content, be it player made, CCP roleplay made, or just your high sec missioning/mining. On a tangent, but still related to the topic: Whether intentional or unintentional, CCP has made a fantastic decision making all the skills in the game take as long as they do. Because of this, with each expansion CCP can focus on making new content and fixing old problems WITHOUT MAKING THE LAST EXPANTION OBSOLITE, and not succumbing to power creep (i.e. having to make upgraded gear and better loot drops so that the players keep having stuff to do and not get bored) because we are still continuing to specialize and passively train never-going-to-be-obsolete skills. I seem to be rambling so I'll get to my point . . . if we get rid of the core skills it would be the first step of the edge of removing more and more skills until we would have to result to, in the words of Ben "Yahtzee "Crowshaw, "more grinds and spiders" to keep this game going. Rambling over, o7 and Fly Safe! Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead. Be a man! Post with your main!

DETURK The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 3	Posted - 2013.08.28 17:43:00 - [21] - Quote Part of why i love EVE is cuz it is "hard" 99% of all games bore me to death after a few days. If ccp ever nerfs this game i'll prob quit.
FT Diomedes The Graduates RAZOR Alliance 180	Posted - 2013.08.28 18:03:00 - [22] - Quote The time sink should not be so heavily concentrated in early skills. I don't remember the exact number, but it would take a long time to max out all skills (more than two decades). Even at 140m SP, my current skill plan goes for another 2+ years. There is plenty of content in this game for long term / short term goals. To me, it seems more exciting to choose between "train Caldari Frigate V now? Or try out Minmatar ships?" than it is to decide, "I'm going to train up my core skills for the next 100-130 days so I have a solid foundation for all future playing, and in the meantime, I'll fly my Drake in level 3 missions until my eyes bleed. Once I get all those core skills done, I can respec to perception/willpower and train more fun spaceships." Give the new player that solid foundation upfront. I know that not everyone (or anyone), including my corpmates, agrees with me on this, but CCP will go in this direction at some point in order to improve the new player experience and increase retention.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 461	Posted - 2013.08.28 19:34:00 - [23] - Quote I think the rewarding part of EVE is that it does take you 6-12 months to become "good". "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Phaade Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us 82	Posted - 2013.08.28 19:53:00 - [24] - Quote FT Diomedes wrote: The time sink should not be so heavily concentrated in early skills. I don't remember the exact number, but it would take a long time to max out all skills (more than two decades). Even at 140m SP, my current skill plan goes for another 2+ years. There is plenty of content in this game for long term / short term goals. To me, it seems more exciting to choose between "train Caldari Frigate V now? Or try out Minmatar ships?" than it is to decide, "I'm going to train up my core skills for the next 100-130 days so I have a solid foundation for all future playing, and in the meantime, I'll fly my Drake in level 3 missions until my eyes bleed. Once I get all those core skills done, I can respec to perception/willpower and train more fun spaceships." Give the new player that solid foundation upfront. I know that not everyone (or anyone), including my corpmates, agrees with me on this, but CCP will go in this direction at some point in order to improve the new player experience and increase retention. QFT. I'd rather see longer training times getting into new ships and specializing than spending time training fittings skills like engineering and electronics. My friend just started playing this game last week. His capacitor amount + charge / speed + maneuverability / shield + armor + hull / fitting capabilities are SO much lower than mine that it really is completely unfair. There is no way in hell a ship he can fly will beat any t1 frigate I can fly, even if I fit all tech 1. This is why I think the OP has some merit. Again, I don't like the idea of removing some of the time required to effectively specialize, so I'd propose longer training times on the rest of the skills and less with these "core" skills.
Wolfgang Achari Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club 1	Posted - 2013.08.28 20:46:00 - [25] - Quote Phaade wrote: There is no way in hell a ship he can fly will beat any t1 frigate I can fly, even if I fit all tech 1, regardless of how he flies it. That just means he lacks player skill. I can get kills on my FW alt (with ~2 weeks of training) against T2 fit frigs and I don't fit higher than M3 mods on any of the ships (frigs/dessies) that toon flies. I can certainly appreciate wanting to make the game easier to dive into, but by the same token being limited by these skills helps you develop as a player in EVE. Likewise, what happens to the skill requirements for all the modules that use these core skills?
Phaade Debitum Naturae WHY so Seri0Us 83	Posted - 2013.08.28 21:13:00 - [26] - Quote Wolfgang Achari wrote: Phaade wrote: There is no way in hell a ship he can fly will beat any t1 frigate I can fly, even if I fit all tech 1, regardless of how he flies it. That just means he lacks player skill. I can get kills on my FW alt (with ~2 weeks of training) against T2 fit frigs and I don't fit higher than M3 mods on any of the ships (frigs/dessies) that toon flies. I can certainly appreciate wanting to make the game easier to dive into, but by the same token being limited by these skills helps you develop as a player in EVE. Likewise, what happens to the skill requirements for all the modules that use these core skills? Not at all....did you read what I wrote? It doesn't matter how well he flies (provided I don't completely derp), his ship is weaker in so many ways that he has no chance. I can perma run an armor repper while he can't; I can fly faster, with more agility, deal more damage from farther, track better, rep faster and longer, with significantly more armor / hull / armor hp; this doesn't include being able to fit the same ship in far more ways with far better modules (not tech 2, just different combinations of weapons / prop etc). It just seems like a little much to me. I prefer having specialization / ship progression take longer than these core skills that are a requirement to truly compete at a high level. Granted, it's not impossible for him to have a ship setup that beats another ship setup given he flies perfectly, but man is that unlikely. But PvE wise, he's weaker in every possible regard.
Wolfgang Achari Morior Invictus. The Retirement Club 1	Posted - 2013.08.28 22:15:00 - [27] - Quote Phaade wrote: Not at all....did you read what I wrote? It doesn't matter how well he flies (provided I don't completely derp), his ship is weaker in so many ways that he has no chance. I can perma run an armor repper while he can't; I can fly faster, with more agility, deal more damage from farther, track better, rep faster and longer, with significantly more armor / hull / armor hp; this doesn't include being able to fit the same ship in far more ways with far better modules (not tech 2, just different combinations of weapons / prop etc). It just seems like a little much to me. I prefer having specialization / ship progression take longer than these core skills that are a requirement to truly compete at a high level. Granted, it's not impossible for him to have a ship setup that beats another ship setup given he flies perfectly, but man is that unlikely. But PvE wise, he's weaker in every possible regard. This is the case with practically every other RPG that you can play. In Skyrim, if I equip the same gear on an old toon that I have on a new one I'm still going to be more effective with the old one. Sure in most other RPG's you can grind for XP to gain new skills faster, but most of the time when you're doing that you're not improving as a player. Which in EVE is arguably more important to do given the number of available game mechanics available that allow lower SP players to make up for that deficit. *Apparently I took to long to hit submit the first time in case you see a blank post.
Azrael Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 143	Posted - 2013.08.29 05:35:00 - [28] - Quote Lets not... If you don't want to train them you do not have to. Train something else they are not needed in the game if you do lets say pure science. After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm
SOL Ranger Jaeger Squadron 17	Posted - 2013.08.29 06:51:00 - [29] - Quote If anything there needs to be more skills(including core skills) and more levels(at least up to 100 with diminishing returns), this to allow specialization a possibility and eliminate the everyone ends up training everything concept finally. People should be able to specialize into their own play style indefinitely and not need to resort to train arbitrary skills for no reason other than to fill the queue. Skill/role choices need to count for something.
Deliora May OMGROFLSTOMP Ushra'Khan 0	Posted - 2013.08.29 12:17:00 - [30] - Quote I think the core skills are a good idea. They reinforce the importance of certain aspects of the game. I know it takes time to train them but the effect is large. While the "learning skills" only affected the speed at which you could train skills the core skills actually have an effect on the stats / possiblities of your ship. I know that it might sound drastic but I think they are part of what makes EVE unique compared to all the other games out there. You do not get a bouquet or roses once you start the game - you work your way up. Finding a balance in training those skills is a skill in itself and each player has his or her own strategy as how they go about their training. A compromise might be not to let people start out on "0" on the support skills / core skills but on lv. 3. That way they can improve upon the skills and min/max their fitting possibilities while still giving them a chance to get into other skills a bit earlier.



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