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Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.05 13:38:00 - [121] I'll post this in case someone wasn't aware. Looking at certain sites and adding them together that's some 50 000 euros worth of ISK and items on sale every moment. And that does not include the smaller sales points (localized national "ebays" and such) and under the counter deals yet. Calculating back from that, trying to evaluate the ISK grinder's effectiveness.. That's some 2000 chracters 22/7 grinding ISK. Ratio is some perhaps ~20 grinders controlled by one human? There might be some older mission runners etc too selling though. I've heard about at least one. When you visit the belts and start counting for real, 2000 seems to be quite realistic number I'm afraid. Only 1/3 seem to be Chinese, 1/3 American and the rest from assorted countries (Romania, Spain, Iceland [!, seen couple]), ... And almost none of them are trial accounts anymore. GMs and staff have said banning couple hundred of them. It's sad because when you ban them, they've already transferred the real money at that point. So they've made up all their expenses and from their viewpoint they are on the positive side although they could have earned even more if they hadn't re-train all the skills. CCP is afraid to break eggs here making an omelette. There's 5-10 ways to really stop most of it. They just have big downsides on different stakeholders, for instance AFK miners. Changing some things suggested WOULD lead into insane amount of whining. And perhaps they actually like the money from those subscriptions too?! Their largest fault here seems to be their policy of not talking about the banned users imho. They should list them, and ban the buyers too and list them too. To shame them. They should make more visible strikes. And yeah, improve their technical tools of curbing the effect - and train the GMs and such more to handle it at the same time. I got just this thing to say: Wether you agree or not, act or not, like it or not - the issue is here to stay. It's even enough that people THINK it is, even if you disagreed. And it's something that will not go away before absolutely credible and visible actions. Just my 0.02$
Wythrill Theroux	Posted - 2006.01.05 13:49:00 - [122] Edited by: Wythrill Theroux on 05/01/2006 13:51:38 Originally by: Macro Slasher I'll post this in case someone wasn't aware. Looking at certain sites and adding them together that's some 50 000 euros worth of ISK and items on sale every moment. And that does not include the smaller sales points (localized national "ebays" and such) and under the counter deals yet. Calculating back from that, trying to evaluate the ISK grinder's effectiveness.. That's some 2000 chracters 22/7 grinding ISK. Ratio is some perhaps ~20 grinders controlled by one human? There might be some older mission runners etc too selling though. I've heard about at least one. When you visit the belts and start counting for real, 2000 seems to be quite realistic number I'm afraid. I think your estimates of 2000 characters farming this game everyday isn't too far off the mark. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to wake up. I trade between the lower forge and Jita eveyday and pass though the same 10 systems back and forth. There are over 40 characters called names like jtgg6d and rt77ff spread throughout those systems online without fail day after day. Thats just 10 systems out of the 1000 or so systems in Empire space. And if your estimates are correct, that works out at 2000 x $15 per month subscription = $30,000 monthly income for CCP. And people wonder why nothing seems to be getting done about it
Jowen Datloran	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:06:00 - [123] EVE was doing well with a lot less subscribers than it currently has and would do so again. All these accusations that CCP "doesn't deal" (though they do) with the farmer concerns because they don't want to ban people and lose revenue are getting ridiculous. Please focus your anger towards those who deserves it. ---------------- Main as main can be
Wythrill Theroux	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:10:00 - [124] Originally by: Jowen Datloran EVE was doing well with a lot less subscribers than it currently has and would do so again. All these accusations that CCP "doesn't deal" (though they do) with the farmer concerns because they don't want to ban people and lose revenue are getting ridiculous. Please focus your anger towards those who deserves it. You're probably right. Can you post me the link where you found the information stating CCP are dealing with it. Cheers.
Jowen Datloran	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:12:00 - [125] Originally by: Wythrill Theroux Originally by: Jowen Datloran ... You're probably right. Can you post me the link where you found the information stating CCP are dealing with it. Cheers. No need. If I didn't trust the company I wouldn't be here. ---------------- Main as main can be
Germain	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:20:00 - [126] If your estimates are correct, that works out at 2000 x $15 per month subscription = $30,000 monthly income for CCP. And people wonder why nothing seems to be getting done about it if this is close to the correct numbers how much ore can these guys mine using basic mining barge skills. can any one do the sums? And then convert to isk then to ebay prices. it would be nice to see how much money is been made by the miners.
Kemahl Ashok	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:28:00 - [127] If CCP are going to tackle the bots, I think the longer term solution needs to resemble a real world situation. I propose that noobs enter the game aligned but not "incorporated". In this state, perhaps their access to the open market could be limited -- for example, limiting the amounts of ores/minerals that can be sold over a set period for profit. Also, the kinds of equipment they might be allowed to legally operate could be restricted to, say, cruisers and the smaller haulers. I know that many folks prefer independance over membership of a larger corporation (understandably) for reasons of politics, etc. But maybe they should be forced into one-person corps (sole-traders), so they can be free of the politicking, but still be wardec'd? This way they run the same risks as the rest of us. This would also have the added benefit of providing unfettered access to markets and materiel. I think tackling exploits by improving the universe mechanics is far better than forcing GMs or CCP to intervene. KA.
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:39:00 - [128] Edited by: Macro Slasher on 05/01/2006 14:43:44 Originally by: Jowen Datloran EVE was doing well with a lot less subscribers than it currently has and would do so again. All these accusations that CCP "doesn't deal" (though they do) with the farmer concerns because they don't want to ban people and lose revenue are getting ridiculous. Please focus your anger towards those who deserves it. For 30 000 dollars income/month I would care about slight amount of whining on forums either. I'd take the money and "uhm, work on the matter". CCP isn't doing charity. Although they might LOVE the game and all, they got their things to be paid too. Heck, for 30 000 dollars I'll sell you the Red Square from Moscow And make some Kieron to try to talk myself out of the bad situation... Edit: Wasn't my first thought tbh. I don't think that's all that is happening. I have a little faith left. I just think they are retards on this matter
Sybylle	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:45:00 - [129] Edited by: Sybylle on 05/01/2006 14:45:15 Stopping macrominers with ingame mechanics. ->Player spots macrominers and contacts ISD/GM through a dedicated chan ->ISD/GM comes in to investigate and indentify macroers ->ISD/GM Blacklist them toward Concord after investigation ->ISD/GM Spawn Concord ships on-demand that will camp the belt where they are Now enjoy the fireworks :D Site ICE is coming to EveÖ since 860050 AD Image oversized, please take a look at the forum rules - Laqum
Arcticblue2	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:54:00 - [130] Originally by: Sybylle Edited by: Sybylle on 05/01/2006 14:45:15 Stopping macrominers with ingame mechanics. ->Player spots macrominers and contacts ISD/GM through a dedicated chan ->ISD/GM comes in to investigate and indentify macroers ->ISD/GM Blacklist them toward Concord after investigation ->ISD/GM Spawn Concord ships on-demand that will camp the belt where they are Now enjoy the fireworks :D That would have been cool... but problem is that it is not possible for the GM's to determed that hey he is using macro or he is a isk farmer... that demands more investigation... days, weeks and even maybe months. No getting mining out of npc corps and into playercorps I belive is the best way to deal with it, loads will wardec any macrominers they find even if they choose to stay in one man corps. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.

Sybylle	Posted - 2006.01.05 14:59:00 - [131] Originally by: Arcticblue2 That would have been cool... but problem is that it is not possible for the GM's to determed that hey he is using macro or he is a isk farmer... that demands more investigation... days, weeks and even maybe months. ISK farmer can answer mail. Invstigation also meant any possible notification way. Send a first advice, then pop them some days after that (if still there)... Site ICE is coming to EveÖ since 189221 AD Image oversized, please take a look at the forum rules - Laqum
Arcticblue2	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:06:00 - [132] Originally by: Sybylle Originally by: Arcticblue2 That would have been cool... but problem is that it is not possible for the GM's to determed that hey he is using macro or he is a isk farmer... that demands more investigation... days, weeks and even maybe months. ISK farmer can answer mail. Invstigation also meant any possible notification way. Send a first advice, then pop them some days after that (if still there)... so in other word... nothing new should be done... that is what they do now as far as I know. We report, they investigate and do nothing. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Barbi Rella	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:12:00 - [133] Originally by: Arcticblue2 Originally by: Sybylle Originally by: Arcticblue2 That would have been cool... but problem is that it is not possible for the GM's to determed that hey he is using macro or he is a isk farmer... that demands more investigation... days, weeks and even maybe months. ISK farmer can answer mail. Invstigation also meant any possible notification way. Send a first advice, then pop them some days after that (if still there)... so in other word... nothing new should be done... that is what they do now as far as I know. We report, they investigate and do nothing. I don't think they even investigate anymore tbh. Report them til the cows come home, they'll still be there weeks later. All the ones I did are. I don't bother sending petitions anymore - its a waste of my time.
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:19:00 - [134] Originally by: Barbi Rella Originally by: Arcticblue2 Originally by: Sybylle Originally by: Arcticblue2 That would have been cool... but problem is that it is not possible for the GM's to determed that hey he is using macro or he is a isk farmer... that demands more investigation... days, weeks and even maybe months. ISK farmer can answer mail. Invstigation also meant any possible notification way. Send a first advice, then pop them some days after that (if still there)... so in other word... nothing new should be done... that is what they do now as far as I know. We report, they investigate and do nothing. I don't think they even investigate anymore tbh. Report them til the cows come home, they'll still be there weeks later. All the ones I did are. I don't bother sending petitions anymore - its a waste of my time. Yup, the ones I've seen and petitioned couple months ago.. Still mining happily. Even the ones that actually admited farming ISK and selling it.
Jeret McKain	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:23:00 - [135] ...and I swore I wasn't going to get involved in this but I see a lot of different topics besides macro's so I thought I'd toss in a coin or two. 1. on forcing players out of npc corps - what's to stop them from going to the dump out npc corp? oh, they can't do that either? then how do you get rid of a no load in your corp? oh, you hadn't thought of that? where do they go if they don't leave the npc corp? they get booted from eve? lol. While it would be great if lamers wouldn't hide in npc corps - these suggestions/solutions are incomplete and will not work. Easier would be to say you can declare war on a single person for a lesser fee. Now, why didn't anyone think of that? 2. on stopping the isk farming etc, ccp loses macro subscriber fees and cheater subscriber fees... Oh, give me a break! There can't possibly be a "huge income stream" associated with this. oh, and yes - I said "cheaters". Lazy no loads that buy isk are cheaters. They are taking shortcuts thus cheating. I never cared for cheaters myself but there's an abundance of lazy people in the world so it's unlikely they will be gone anytime soon. Hey, how about this - we acknowledge that there are cheaters who want to buy isk and that's why macroer's are such a pain. Why doesn't ccp just sell the isk themselves, undercutting the ebayers and make so much money they can lower all of our subscription fees. There, that's a win win, isn't it? My opinion on macroers - a. - I could care less if someone cheats and buys isk - I don't do it, but that's just me. b. - macroers flood market with mins - min prices go down - I make stuff cheaper and see more profit on market goods. Other goods are cheaper for me to buy. I do not see this as a bad thing. c. - they eliminate all of the roids in empire or only respawn them once a week - like, this past week. There's no mins. Min prices skyrocket. Whoo hoo! Now I don't have to build stuff for money - I can mine trit in 0.0 and it's worth it!! Yay!!!
Arcticblue2	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:33:00 - [136] Originally by: Jeret McKain ...and I swore I wasn't going to get involved in this but I see a lot of different topics besides macro's so I thought I'd toss in a coin or two. 1. on forcing players out of npc corps - what's to stop them from going to the dump out npc corp? oh, they can't do that either? then how do you get rid of a no load in your corp? oh, you hadn't thought of that? where do they go if they don't leave the npc corp? they get booted from eve? lol. While it would be great if lamers wouldn't hide in npc corps - these suggestions/solutions are incomplete and will not work. Easier would be to say you can declare war on a single person for a lesser fee. Now, why didn't anyone think of that? 2. on stopping the isk farming etc, ccp loses macro subscriber fees and cheater subscriber fees... Oh, give me a break! There can't possibly be a "huge income stream" associated with this. oh, and yes - I said "cheaters". Lazy no loads that buy isk are cheaters. They are taking shortcuts thus cheating. I never cared for cheaters myself but there's an abundance of lazy people in the world so it's unlikely they will be gone anytime soon. Hey, how about this - we acknowledge that there are cheaters who want to buy isk and that's why macroer's are such a pain. Why doesn't ccp just sell the isk themselves, undercutting the ebayers and make so much money they can lower all of our subscription fees. There, that's a win win, isn't it? My opinion on macroers - a. - I could care less if someone cheats and buys isk - I don't do it, but that's just me. b. - macroers flood market with mins - min prices go down - I make stuff cheaper and see more profit on market goods. Other goods are cheaper for me to buy. I do not see this as a bad thing. c. - they eliminate all of the roids in empire or only respawn them once a week - like, this past week. There's no mins. Min prices skyrocket. Whoo hoo! Now I don't have to build stuff for money - I can mine trit in 0.0 and it's worth it!! Yay!!! Well that B of yours is wrong... yes you can build cheap but also you have to sell cheap because everybody else is building cheap. An example... Apocs, now they sell for 98 million isk !!! and steady have been going down. Oh did I tell you that it costed me 90 million to build one (in minerals alone)... yes I did buy every bit of minerals to build 2 of them, sort of a test and that costed me 90 million, plus 2 million in blueprint copies. Still a small profit yes.. but compared to a week ago where I sold a apoc to 107 million .. alot less profit right ? So I can buy minerals and produce cheaper but the thing is I see on the market is that prices are dropping on items too.. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Amasera	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:42:00 - [137] Originally by: Tasuric Orka I like the idea of forcing players out of NPC corps after 30 days, make it so you have to have been in a corp for at least 7 days before you can leave for another. -I found a good corp after 2 weeks. -legitimate solo players can join a special corp that has that purpose. -Players will have to watch out who they take on in their corp and make sure he/she is not an isk farmer. -you may have found a good corp after 2 weeks. how many did you join in the process?? thats how many weeks you would have spent. not everyone find a corp they like right away. -heres your safe haven for macro miners. and if you sugest limiting mining here it will hurt the solo'ers too. i don't know how many but i'm sure some like to mine -players WILL HAVE to. but that doesn't mean players will DO. not everyone has the experience necersary to know who to invite and who not to. Besides, this will also make it easier for griefers. they have 7 days where noone can leave the corp, when theres a new one started.
Lifewire	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:55:00 - [138] Edited by: Lifewire on 05/01/2006 15:59:18 Make it possible to... KILL `EM ...that¦s all we need. Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/ Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips Killboard:http://www.tundragon.com/
Amasera	Posted - 2006.01.05 15:55:00 - [139] Originally by: Wythrill Theroux Edited by: Wythrill Theroux on 05/01/2006 14:03:59 Originally by: Macro Slasher I'll post this in case someone wasn't aware. Looking at certain sites and adding them together that's some 50 000 euros worth of ISK and items on sale every moment. And that does not include the smaller sales points (localized national "ebays" and such) and under the counter deals yet. Calculating back from that, trying to evaluate the ISK grinder's effectiveness.. That's some 2000 chracters 22/7 grinding ISK. Ratio is some perhaps ~20 grinders controlled by one human? There might be some older mission runners etc too selling though. I've heard about at least one. When you visit the belts and start counting for real, 2000 seems to be quite realistic number I'm afraid. I think your estimates of 2000 characters farming this game everyday isn't too far off the mark. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to wake up. I trade between the lower forge and Jita eveyday and pass though the same 10 systems back and forth. There are over 40 characters with stupid names like jtgg6d and rt77ff spread throughout those systems online without fail day after day. Thats just 10 systems out of the 1000 or so systems in Empire space. Now I'm not saying all those folks are macroing but the locals seem to think so as they're the ones trying to compete for resources against them everyday. Macro-intel has helped somewhat but they can only do so much. And if the macroers are mining ice - they're virtually untouchable. If your estimates are correct, that works out at 2000 x $15 per month subscription = $30,000 monthly income for CCP. And people wonder why nothing seems to be getting done about it excelent example.. CCP is making $30.000 a month. macrominers is making 50.000 euro minus $30.000 they are both happy. the problem is. they are the only ones who are happy. (except the buyers ofcourse... but i have little respect for them, they are the ones who make this evil circle pay off)
Rhonni Rhocket	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:12:00 - [140] Edited by: Rhonni Rhocket on 05/01/2006 16:17:00 Originally by: Jeret McKain ...and I swore I wasn't going to get involved in this but I see a lot of different topics besides macro's so I thought I'd toss in a coin or two. 1. on forcing players out of npc corps - what's to stop them from going to the dump out npc corp? oh, they can't do that either? then how do you get rid of a no load in your corp? oh, you hadn't thought of that? where do they go if they don't leave the npc corp? they get booted from eve? lol. While it would be great if lamers wouldn't hide in npc corps - these suggestions/solutions are incomplete and will not work. Easier would be to say you can declare war on a single person for a lesser fee. Now, why didn't anyone think of that? Think before you post. No one is saying the soultion is as simple as kicking someone out of an npc corp. Those talanted programmers at CCP are paid to flesh out the the exact details on such things and iron out any problems - so don't be so narrow minded in future and try to think outside the box a little, mkay? Originally by: Jeret McKain My opinion on macroers - a. - I could care less if someone cheats and buys isk - I don't do it, but that's just me. b. - macroers flood market with mins - min prices go down - I make stuff cheaper and see more profit on market goods. Other goods are cheaper for me to buy. I do not see this as a bad thing. c. - they eliminate all of the roids in empire or only respawn them once a week - like, this past week. There's no mins. Min prices skyrocket. Whoo hoo! Now I don't have to build stuff for money - I can mine trit in 0.0 and it's worth it!! Yay!!! This is a joke, right? Otherwise what you're basically saying is all the legitimate miners that don't use macros can have their play-style unfairly affected to the point they can no longer compete - unless they buy a third party program and join in?... and you aint bothered cos you aint a miner..... okaaay

Rhonda Rho	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:23:00 - [141] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 05/01/2006 15:59:18 Make it possible to... KILL `EM ...that¦s all we need. QFT.
Arcticblue2	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:30:00 - [142] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 05/01/2006 15:59:18 Make it possible to... KILL `EM ...that¦s all we need. Now there I agree with Lifewire ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.
Tasuric Orka	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:37:00 - [143] Originally by: Amasera Originally by: Tasuric Orka I like the idea of forcing players out of NPC corps after 30 days, make it so you have to have been in a corp for at least 7 days before you can leave for another. -I found a good corp after 2 weeks. -legitimate solo players can join a special corp that has that purpose. -Players will have to watch out who they take on in their corp and make sure he/she is not an isk farmer. -you may have found a good corp after 2 weeks. how many did you join in the process?? thats how many weeks you would have spent. not everyone find a corp they like right away. Its my second corp, one after three days into the game, then the one im in now. Yes.. not everyone is that lucky, but one can just join a crappy corp if they let you, and you can still solo everything. And after 30 days, starting your own should be very possible. [qoute]-heres your safe haven for macro miners. and if you sugest limiting mining here it will hurt the solo'ers too. i don't know how many but i'm sure some like to mine Sure, make them join a mining corp, maybe they can start one "Solo mining corp", voila, one starts, the rest joins. Quote: -players WILL HAVE to. but that doesn't mean players will DO. not everyone has the experience necersary to know who to invite and who not to. Besides, this will also make it easier for griefers. they have 7 days where noone can leave the corp, when theres a new one started. You know what happens to people that dont take care and venture into low security space? Exacly.. if you cant bother to check people's history and stats before you let them join your corp.. you shouldnt be inviting people in the first place.
Sybylle	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:39:00 - [144] Originally by: Lifewire Edited by: Lifewire on 05/01/2006 15:59:18 Make it possible to... KILL `EM ...that¦s all we need. Yup, but I would really appreciate that Concord manages these kind of issues, just to be more immersive... Of course tagging them as "free to kill" would be nice :D Site ICE is coming to EveÖ since 187253 AD Image oversized, please take a look at the forum rules - Laqum
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2006.01.05 16:46:00 - [145] Originally by: Amasera excelent example.. CCP is making $30.000 a month. macrominers is making 50.000 euro minus $30.000 We don't know all the places where its being sold. If I was doing it, I'd sell to the people at my school cough, it would never show up in any web page.
Juxler	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:00:00 - [146] Here's my take as a trial-only noob: Don't change the game mechanics in some contorted solution to macro mining. Implement a program that watches for 3rd party applications or bots, like Blizzard did with WoW and their "weasel" program or whatever. If someone can manage and pay for 20 accounts and wants to spend all their time mining, more power to 'em. The main problem from my perspective is when gameplay is automated outside the intent of built-in game mechanics (built-in mechanics such as autopilot). I don't understand gameplay mechanics enough to understand how, but I'd imagine that players could gain significant advantages, let's say in pvp combat, by automating certain processes through the use of bots (as an analogy consider aim-bots in Quake). Eliminate the use of bots and I think this game would be a lot better off.
Nee'kita Frist	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:02:00 - [147] Edited by: Nee''kita Frist on 05/01/2006 17:03:05 I keep seeing people saying that "Oh I've passed through Jita and there was like oooo 40 of them just mining AFK yeah man." How the hell were you just passing through and you were able to check the belts might I ask? And if you gonna say "Oooo cos their names were like Jengamunga and Jangamonga etc etc. How do you know those just aren't just rather weird friends AND legit players. "Oh cos they are there ALL the time." Again I refere you to the statement of 'passing through' which means you arn't there all the time to make that kind of statement by your own acknowledgement of the statement. And for the "Show me some evidence" statements. What gives you any right to see the modertaion/gm actions that CCP preforms? They are a private company and by all rights can keep information secret as they choose. Finally to finish this rant. Even if they did release the info, I'm sure its against some laws in certain countries especially if for some reason it was to go to court. I know in the UK for sure any case of dismissal etc, companies will find that best practice is not to talk about it outside of the courtroom. On a side note about those who ARE farming and selling ISK. Could CCP not just monitor the movement of large sums of money? I'm sure they could take a look at how money laundering is handled to see how that works.
Kastiotic	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:15:00 - [148] Make it so that induviduals can be war decced after 30 days in a noob corp. If you join an NPC corp (Aliastra, Caldari Provisions) though then you don't have a 30 day war dec protection.
Mimio	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:22:00 - [149] Originally by: Juxler Here's my take as a trial-only noob: Implement a program that watches for 3rd party applications or bots, like Blizzard did with WoW and their "weasel" program or whatever. It does not help.
Arcticblue2	Posted - 2006.01.05 17:31:00 - [150] Originally by: Juxler Here's my take as a trial-only noob: Don't change the game mechanics in some contorted solution to macro mining. Implement a program that watches for 3rd party applications or bots, like Blizzard did with WoW and their "weasel" program or whatever. If someone can manage and pay for 20 accounts and wants to spend all their time mining, more power to 'em. The main problem from my perspective is when gameplay is automated outside the intent of built-in game mechanics (built-in mechanics such as autopilot). I don't understand gameplay mechanics enough to understand how, but I'd imagine that players could gain significant advantages, let's say in pvp combat, by automating certain processes through the use of bots (as an analogy consider aim-bots in Quake). Eliminate the use of bots and I think this game would be a lot better off. Problem is that not all are using macro programs, there might be one guy controlling 10 different accounts somehow, I myself control 2 accounts (one usually hauls while the other mine) or one account is not logged on for that matter it happens. Either way .. I play windowsmode and have windows over eachother and switch easy with alt+tab... I suppose on my computer alone I could run 3 accounts easy (even that my computer is not the best one). So how do you discover a isk farmer then ??? only way is to truly find them is by tracing the isk, then again .. .it is not illegal to transfer isk to a friend even large sums.. or to anyone else for that matter. So where does this lead us ??? best way is to force mining (and mining alone) out of npc corps.. okey let them have basic miners and miner I's ... that does not make them very effective as when they are using retrievers and all. That way players can "police" them by attacking (wardecs) their corps... the comunity already got good ways to discover these afk/macro/farmers and I have yet to see a post about guys being targeted wrongfully. ---------------------------------------------- "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." 1 cor.



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