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Wrangler	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:12:00 - [1] Ok, now even I'm fed up with the never ending spam of threads about macroing. I don't really care how, but if it has anything to do with macroing post here, do not start your own thread or I will omgwtfbbqpwn you. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators] - [Give me money!]

Spokie	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:14:00 - [2] How many players would quit Eve if they where forced to leave their NPC corp after 30 days? The way I see it, macroers and isk farmers are the biggest concern in Eve at the moment. At least 9 or 10 new threads a day pop up with this solution or that solution on how to deal with them. But the problem is a very simple one to fix. Eve's game mechanics protect macroers. Forcing players to leave the sanctury of an NPC corp after their initial 30-day trial is over would remove that protection and make it open-season on all macroers. There would be no more need to waste time sending in petitions, and GM's would be free from being bogged-down investigating them. And CCP wouldn't have to lose any income from banning macroers account. Heck, they could even legalise it! Now some will say that innocent newer players will be griefed as they'll be forced to form their own corps after 30 days or join exisiting player-run corps... but this already happens anyway - just take a look through the crime and punishment forum from time to time to see someone complaining his corp of noobs are being wardecced by hardcore PvP'ers. So the question is this.... what is the lesser of two evils? 1. Macorers are forced into creating corporations - thus making them vulnerable to war declarations. The playerbase now has the ability to police them. or 2. Legitimate new players are thrown in at the deep end after 30 days by having to create their own corp or joining an existing corp (and thus possibly subject to similar war decs by griefer corps). I suspect the majority of new players do join player corps or make their own corp within 30 days of starting Eve anyway tbh! Please discuss, and try to keep it civil
dazedandconfused	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:14:00 - [3] first, first time i have been first, owneed!!!!1
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:17:00 - [4] Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 05/01/2006 01:18:49 shall i summise what seems to be a general consensus....??? first let me say thanx for everyone discussing this in a cival manner ok so we ALL (including me) agree that farming for isk via macroing or not to sell on ebay is not right and bad for any mmo all around. now we also know there is not a whole lot players can do besides become anti-social to the macro miner ebayer farmer and just doing everything possible to ruin there world....and efforts...and in the progress probably thier own game depending on who you are now we also some what believe game makers do not do enough to ban or block this issue and type of player, in fact it is my "personnal opinion" that NCSoft actually promotes it (but thats a whole another issue) now enters eve... players fight back...devs ban many...farmers keep coming...players keep BUYING ISK.... in todays world the most valuable commodity is convienence and man, in mmo's people will pay not to GRIND....cause it suxor...the reason you grind is thats how mmos make thier money.... imagine this...a game that did not make you take months or years to earn money or skills or items...if you dont believe me look at WoW...max a character in a matter of a month or so I hear...(never played it though so correct me if i am wrong) you could compete with players whom played for years...within a few months not years...you had to still earn your stuff but not at some retarded long rate like real life to hold you to keep sending companies your 15 bux a month.... as long as players buy isk farmers will thrive...and there is nothing any player can do to change this...or any gaming company that runs this type of business model of "the longer the customer has to take to get to the next ISK/Level/Skill/Item the longer the customer will send us 15 bux a month" with that said i choose still to ignore and not fight a battle i cannot win nor actually impact...i am just the victum of a crime commited against the game makers...they must assume responsibility...until then if i DO see macroers i will kill them and take the sec hit...but once again i havent seen any...guess im just the rare case maybe..i dunno even if it means banning together worldwide to bring international action or laws...but game makers will have to change the models a bit before this is going away on a few ends...the players, myself and you and others, will have to make a choice...live with it or stop playing...it is that clear to me after lineage II...tis sad yes... i just dont see companies spending revenue to stop revenue and its sad...the players who just enjoy, love and really are here to game are the true and most harmed by this not the game makers or farmers...
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:20:00 - [5] Holy Wrangler! impressive lockage good idea got fed up with all the posts as well Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Flamia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:21:00 - [6] As a preface, I have deliberately not used the name "macro miners", because while this implies automation, correctly, this is not always entirely correctly constued; Firstly its worth noting that 90% of the iskfarming groups are not ENTIRELY afk; they are organised to the point that 1 guy will be running 20 accounts. This invalidates 9/10 of the suggested solutions. Secondly, a lot of the remaining solutions require ridiculously large GM involvement; impossible. Therefore the solution that works best will be that which requires minimal or no GM involvement, and in the spirit of the game it should therefore be done by players. The easiest way to allow players to take action against macrominers (beyond getting them to criminally flag themselves through luck and sloppy macros), is to use the war mechanics. For this to happen, we need to force isk-farmers into corps. To do this is difficult without negatively impacting legitimate solo players. Possibilities include; - Limit to mining in NPC corps .... possibly unfair on noobs, although they can always join small player-controlled corps - Limit to ship use in NPC corps .... very unfair to solo players although again they could join a player-run corp and still solo To be honest, its probably not that bad a thing to force EVERYONE to make themselves vulnerable to wars at some point. If it were up to me, you would have to leave the NPC corp to fly a BS or med/large barge. This alone wouldnt be enough, you would need to add a 72hr delay to leaving corps which are in an active war. Again this isnt a bad thing.
Flamia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:22:00 - [7] Originally by: Spokie How many players would quit Eve if they where forced to leave their NPC corp after 30 days? The way I see it, macroers and isk farmers are the biggest concern in Eve at the moment. At least 9 or 10 new threads a day pop up with this solution or that solution on how to deal with them. But the problem is a very simple one to fix. Eve's game mechanics protect macroers. Forcing players to leave the sanctury of an NPC corp after their initial 30-day trial is over would remove that protection and make it open-season on all macroers. There would be no more need to waste time sending in petitions, and GM's would be free from being bogged-down investigating them. And CCP wouldn't have to lose any income from banning macroers account. Heck, they could even legalise it! Now some will say that innocent newer players will be griefed as they'll be forced to form their own corps after 30 days or join exisiting player-run corps... but this already happens anyway - just take a look through the crime and punishment forum from time to time to see someone complaining his corp of noobs are being wardecced by hardcore PvP'ers. So the question is this.... what is the lesser of two evils? 1. Macorers are forced into creating corporations - thus making them vulnerable to war declarations. The playerbase now has the ability to police them. or 2. Legitimate new players are thrown in at the deep end after 30 days by having to create their own corp or joining an existing corp (and thus possibly subject to similar war decs by griefer corps). I suspect the majority of new players do join player corps or make their own corp within 30 days of starting Eve anyway tbh! Please discuss, and try to keep it civil Totally agree that this is the way forward. In fact it will HELP some noobs who dont realise the potential of joining a corp.
Flamia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:23:00 - [8] Quote: i just dont see companies spending revenue to stop revenue and its sad...the players who just enjoy, love and really are here to game are the true and most harmed by this not the game makers or farmers... True, so let the players police it.
Ukucia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Spokie How many players would quit Eve if they where forced to leave their NPC corp after 30 days? -Someone has to be the 'voice of experience' in the NPC corp to help out the newbs. -Not everyone wants to have to deal with guild/corp politics. -It often takes a long time to find a corp that really 'fits' you well. -NPC corps are a way for players to flee wars they do not wish to get involved in. -Solo is a valid playstyle, according to CCP. NPC corps are really the only way to do that.
BlackHole Bob	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:27:00 - [10] Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 05/01/2006 01:33:28 Originally by: Flamia Quote: i just dont see companies spending revenue to stop revenue and its sad...the players who just enjoy, love and really are here to game are the true and most harmed by this not the game makers or farmers... True, so let the players police it. well now heres the big question...kill the farmers OR the BUYERS of ISK......????...either way CCP will loose a large revenue stream...do the math from there. if the buyers are not there the farmers are gone...remove the farmers and the players whom hate grinding or have the money to buy isk stop playing...accounts are not piad and viola...its over... ccp loose a large revenue stream...

Ukucia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:27:00 - [11] Originally by: BlackHole Bob i just dont see companies spending revenue to stop revenue and its sad...the players who just enjoy, love and really are here to game are the true and most harmed by this not the game makers or farmers... IMO, there is no 'evil money-grubbing plot' to keep bots around. The problem is there is no automated solution to stopping bots. Every significant MMOG has a bot problem. None of them have come up with an automated solution for it, because no automated solution exists.
Spokie	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Spokie on 05/01/2006 01:30:22 Quote: -Someone has to be the 'voice of experience' in the NPC corp to help out the newbs. There are many other channels in-game where new players can seek help. Quote: -Not everyone wants to have to deal with guild/corp politics. They wouldn't have to if they made their own corp just for themselves. Quote: -It often takes a long time to find a corp that really 'fits' you well. See above. Quote: -NPC corps are a way for players to flee wars they do not wish to get involved in. Good point. But using NPC corps like that is also abused by players that wish to "dodge" a certain war. It's an exploit too IIRC. Quote: -Solo is a valid playstyle, according to CCP. NPC corps are really the only way to do that. No. You can play solo in your own 1-man corp.
Spokie	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:37:00 - [13] Edited by: Spokie on 05/01/2006 01:40:09 Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: BlackHole Bob i just dont see companies spending revenue to stop revenue and its sad...the players who just enjoy, love and really are here to game are the true and most harmed by this not the game makers or farmers... IMO, there is no 'evil money-grubbing plot' to keep bots around. The problem is there is no automated solution to stopping bots. Every significant MMOG has a bot problem. None of them have come up with an automated solution for it, because no automated solution exists. Bots wouldn't be an issue anymore in Eve if a macroers NPC-corp protection was removed. Bots could even be legalised! But expect someone to come along and war dec your corp for using them! Thats the beauty of Eve.
Ukucia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:41:00 - [14] Edited by: Ukucia on 05/01/2006 01:45:08 Originally by: Spokie Quote: -Solo is a valid playstyle, according to CCP. NPC corps are really the only way to do that. No. You can play solo in your own 1-man corp. Which is a problem when someone decides to grief your solo-corp by wardecing you. The anti-war protection of NPC corps is a 'good thing', IMO, and should be available to players who want to play that (boring) way.
Ukucia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Spokie Edited by: Spokie on 05/01/2006 01:40:09 Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: BlackHole Bob i just dont see companies spending revenue to stop revenue and its sad...the players who just enjoy, love and really are here to game are the true and most harmed by this not the game makers or farmers... IMO, there is no 'evil money-grubbing plot' to keep bots around. The problem is there is no automated solution to stopping bots. Every significant MMOG has a bot problem. None of them have come up with an automated solution for it, because no automated solution exists. Bots wouldn't be an issue anymore in Eve if a macroers NPC-corp protection was removed. Bots could even be legalised! But expect someone to come along and war dec your corp for using them! Thats the beauty of Eve. Bots are capable of combat too. They just haven't bothered creating a sophisitcated combat bot for Eve yet, since they don't need combat to skill-up. However, they'll have incentive once their mining bots need protection. I kinda doubt the high-skilled PvPers are gonna spend their time hunting down bots, and we lower-skilled players would get pwned by a sufficiently-equipped and botted BS.
Spokie	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:46:00 - [16] Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Spokie Quote: -Solo is a valid playstyle, according to CCP. NPC corps are really the only way to do that. No. You can play solo in your own 1-man corp. Which is a problem when someone decides to grief your solo-corp by wardecing you. The anti-war protection of NPC corps is a 'good thing', IMO, and should be available to players who don't want to play that (boring) way. Well thats true too. So the question is, do we protect the few players who may be subject to that, or do we want to curb (and possibly eliminate completely) the farmers and macroers that are infesting the game.
Ukucia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Spokie So the question is, do we protect the few players who may be subject to that, or do we want to curb (and possibly eliminate completely) the farmers and macroers that are infesting the game. Which sorta comes down to how big the farmer problem really is in Eve. IMO, it's not all that large. Sure, you can find bots, but there's not that many of them. Otherwise, every mineral would be down to 1 ISK each.
Nikolai Nuvolari	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:49:00 - [18] I count ten locked macro threads on the first page alone. THANK YOU, MODERATORS! -------------------------------------[04:04:04] Tom Thumb > for a nut case you rawk [04:21:15] Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw [07:38:53] Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:49:00 - [19] Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 05/01/2006 01:50:14 Originally by: BlackHole Bob Edited by: BlackHole Bob on 05/01/2006 01:18:49 ok so we ALL (including me) agree that farming for isk via macroing or not to sell on ebay is not right and bad for any mmo all around. No, I don't agree with the blanket statement. I agree that third party sales of in-game items is not right. I am not convinced is it bad all around. This is particularly true of Eve. I don't see large scale mining for ebay being any different that large scale mining in general. Roid belts have been strip mined for at least the last two years. There are more people doing it; the dynamic has not really changed. Camping and mining complexes is different, it denies other player the opportunity to fully play the game. Killing in game 'bosses' that are slow to respawn can be a problem. It is also clear, if you look at the sites selling Eve things, that these are not all trial accounts involved. There are one or more corporation of experienced player involved. A trial account is not going to be building T2/faction equipment. Forcing player out of NPC corps will be problamatic. I have joined serval corps., I have yet to have a good experience. I find it very difficult to find and analyze a corp. There is not D&B available. No RL CEO profiles available. No, I won't join a corp with a 16 yo CEO.
Ace Combat	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:50:00 - [20] Give the people what they want and there will be no more macro mining threads. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I remember the old description for Caldari.. light and nimble ships my ass. :(

Flamia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Ukucia Originally by: Spokie How many players would quit Eve if they where forced to leave their NPC corp after 30 days? -Someone has to be the 'voice of experience' in the NPC corp to help out the newbs. -Not everyone wants to have to deal with guild/corp politics. -It often takes a long time to find a corp that really 'fits' you well. -NPC corps are a way for players to flee wars they do not wish to get involved in. -Solo is a valid playstyle, according to CCP. NPC corps are really the only way to do that. So create a 1 man corp! The Noob Help channel is where the voice of experience comes from, and if noobs are forced to join corps they get BETTER access to experience
Jorge Kamzell	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Ukucia Bots are capable of combat too. They just haven't bothered creating a sophisitcated combat bot for Eve yet, since they don't need combat to skill-up. However, they'll have incentive once their mining bots need protection. I kinda doubt the high-skilled PvPers are gonna spend their time hunting down bots, and we lower-skilled players would get pwned by a sufficiently-equipped and botted BS. It doesn't matter how sophisitcated a combat-bot is, it is no match for a player. Players can devise strategies, do the unexpected, adapt and learn during combat. Bots can't.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:58:00 - [23] Edited by: Cmdr Sy on 05/01/2006 02:00:45 Thank you Wrangler! OK, ever since I saw the Light and realised nerfing noobs was not the way to go about it, I have clung to the belief that the change needs to be purely environmental. Not a new player tool such as "challenges" and selective war decs, but in a passive background feature which limits the farmers' efficiency. These examples have been given before, and not all are workable, but they give you a flavour of where the solution territory lies... - Pure standings-based mining quotas (error message on laser activation) - Mixed standings / sec status based mining permissions (error message on laser activation) - Asteroid damage clouds (not feasible as barges can't tank) - Introduction of predators (NPC ore thieves, higher dps low-sec spawns) - Removal of certain ore types from high sec (eg Kernite) - Nerf of common ore refine quantities - Higher NPC corp tax - Resource limitations This last one, I am hoping is taking place right now by stealth. If the total high sec asteroid respawn rate is lower than the farmers' total mining capacity, the resulting resource wall forces most mining into low sec, where players can organise defence and farmers cannot, due to their inability to cooperate. CCP, if this is intentional, it is an elegant solution. Anyway. This should finally make clear what constitutes an environmental change. I will probably be considered a pariah in the anti-farmer community, but I will say this, the player community can absolutely not be trusted with control of any new tool aimed at addressing the currency farming problem. Please bear in mind I speak as someone who has suicided Kestrels and Caracals, and performs can-flagging. This is not the way to go about it! CCP has to make the environment passively more hostile. EDIT: So could more people please come up with passive environment changes? "The Culture's ultimate Outside Context Problem was popularly supposed to be likely to take the shape of a galaxy-consuming Hegemonising Swarm..."
Rudolf Miller	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:59:00 - [24] Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 05/01/2006 01:59:32 So, are we going to talk about way to deal with third party miners. Or even if they need to be dealt with? Or is this just another thread for folks who don't like the fact that there are NPC corps.
Flamia	Posted - 2006.01.05 01:59:00 - [25] If you give players the ability to declare war and kill Farmers, then we will police it ourselves. Stop letting the NPC corp be used as a haven for war-dodgers.
Driven	Posted - 2006.01.05 02:04:00 - [26] Wrangler, god knows we are all sick of the topic. But, what is more painful is to see that basically nothing is being done about it. Everyday, in any 1.0 or .9, one sees nothing but ISK-farmers by the dozen. Spokie's idea is dead on target. I made the same suggestion 6 months ago, the only difference being I suggested 60 days as the time limit to join a player corp. Why isn't this change even considered? Clearly, unless CCP allows the player community to do something about the ISK-farmer plague, then nothing is going to happen. Certainly, the last year has demonstrated that CCP has zero interest in fixxing the single biggest problem in this game. Further, if players keep getting stone-walled on some kind of answer and workable in-game mechanic to allow us to deal with it, then its on CCP to answer for it. It is they who are tacitly encouraging it. CCP can stick their fingers in their ears and yell "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA" to make the noise from dedicated players go away as much as they want, but the "ignore them and they'll go away" strategy currently being employed by our beloved EVE creators may just work. Because, there are other games out there, and once CCP, through their purposeful inaction, has alienated enough of the core dedicated player community, then the ISK-farmers will be right out the door behind them to abuse the next popular game. Let us hope CCP can get the short-term $$$ of all these extra accounts out of their eyes long enough to see that if they ignore this problem too much longer, they won't have a problem to worry about.
Wythrill Theroux	Posted - 2006.01.05 02:06:00 - [27] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Thank you Wrangler! OK, ever since I saw the Light and realised nerfing noobs was not the way to go about it, I have clung to the belief that the change needs to be purely environmental. Not a new player tool such as "challenges" and selective war decs, but in a passive background feature which limits the farmers' efficiency. These examples have been given before, and not all are workable, but they give you a flavour of where the solution territory lies... - Pure standings-based mining quotas (error message on laser activation) - Mixed standings / sec status based mining permissions (error message on laser activation) - Asteroid damage clouds (not feasible as barges can't tank) - Introduction of predators (NPC ore thieves, higher dps low-sec spawns) - Removal of certain ore types from high sec (eg Kernite) - Nerf of common ore refine quantities - Higher NPC corp tax - Resource limitations This last one, I am hoping is taking place right now by stealth. If the total high sec asteroid respawn rate is lower than the farmers' total mining capacity, the resulting resource wall forces most mining into low sec, where players can organise defence and farmers cannot, due to their inability to cooperate. CCP, if this is intentional, it is an elegant solution. Anyway. This should finally make clear what constitutes an environmental change. I will probably be considered a pariah in the anti-farmer community, but I will say this, the player community can absolutely not be trusted with control of any new tool aimed at addressing the currency farming problem. Please bear in mind I speak as someone who has suicided Kestrels and Caracals, and performs can-flagging. This is not the way to go about it! CCP has to make the environment passively more hostile. Some good ideas, but the problem there is the genuine miners who play the game at their own leisurely pace are effected by those changes. And there's probably a lot of coding and rewrites too to put those changes in just to tackle macroers. The solution, as stated, is probably much simpilar to fix (i.e. the removal of npc corp status as mentioned earlier).
Flamia	Posted - 2006.01.05 02:08:00 - [28] Itd be nice if CCP would have a symposium/Devchat on this topic
Wythrill Theroux	Posted - 2006.01.05 02:09:00 - [29] Originally by: Rudolf Miller Edited by: Rudolf Miller on 05/01/2006 01:59:32 So, are we going to talk about way to deal with third party miners. Or even if they need to be dealt with? Or is this just another thread for folks who don't like the fact that there are NPC corps. I don't think its a case of people not liking npc corps, but more about the mechanics behind them. A few tweaks here and there is all thats needed - not their removal.
Nukeitall	Posted - 2006.01.05 02:14:00 - [30] An overhaul of mining as a whole is required. Something. Anything. Isk farmers suck, but I can live with them so long as macro miners are expunged. How can we accomplish an effective purge of macro miners? It's been suggested that some form of input from the player should be required, similar to EQ2's "damage crafting" system. I leave it to CCP to fix this problem in any capacity they can. Thanks.



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