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Rising Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.26 03:17:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Rising Sin on 26/08/2003 03:17:45
Double post, mods please delete
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.26 05:50:00 -
[242]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 26/08/2003 05:56:49
@ Jash Illian:
 Quote:
Hardeners, Damage Modifiers, MWDs, ect
ect...These are things that if they require balancing, then it should be done after the things they're modifying are balanced.
Modules and weapon have to be balanced toghether.
Otherwise we will balance weapons - then modules, then balance weapons again to the modules changes, etc...
@ Rising Sin:
Quote:
As of yet, I have yet to see an invulnerable slot combination (not counting back when 650 scouts completely owned). The all-gun, all-SH, all-damage mod config may be very common, but just like in RL, what's popular isn't always right and what's right isn't always popular.
As stated before several times: Just because you can beat something doesn't makes it balanced.
And it happens far mor often in RL and in Eve that that's what is popular IS right than that it isn't. People are usually using the most effective setup - if some setup become too common it's a pretty good indicator that it's unbalanced. We've seen that several times in Eve already. The 650 scout issue, for example (those could be beaten, too, btw).
I strongly disagree with Karif's idea, though. A "you can only mount this once" limitation wouldn't be the right solution. It will result in more varity in ship outfit, but it will crippled it as well. Specialisation would be impossible - and that's what makes eve fun IMO.
free speech not allowed here |
Gluefire
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Posted - 2003.08.26 08:36:00 -
[243]
Edited by: Gluefire on 26/08/2003 08:36:30
Quote:
Update:
- Lasers now all have increased damage Multiplier but decreased rate of fire
With this change, many lasers got a damage incrase. Is this intended?
Weapon Data Sheet
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ROFL
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Posted - 2003.08.26 12:30:00 -
[244]
Interesting how the Mega pulse laser has a ridiculously slow tracking speed while still being a short range weapon. Its hybrid and proj counterparts have the appropriate tracking speed however. Hopefully that excel sheet is wrong.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.26 13:29:00 -
[245]
Is the dmg multiplier on the duel 150mm rail still x1? just curiouse, because i belive it should be x1.25 so that it does the same dmg as a single 150mm.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.26 13:47:00 -
[246]
I think the dual 150 should have same ROF as a single 150, and have 1/2 the damage mod. That way, when you take into account it fires medium ammo, it does exactly the same damage.
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Serge
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Posted - 2003.08.26 14:10:00 -
[247]
One question to reduction of ROF and CAP need of laser-wepons:
You currently reduce i.e. the ROF of the heavy beam laser from 7 to 6 sec (build 1165 vs 1181).
The horrid cap-need for the heavy beam (and the heavy pulse laser as well) remains.
Cap-need per second of the med-sized beam wepons is higher/slightly lower than that of the Large beam wepons! Intended or a lapse?
***********************************************
... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.08.26 14:43:00 -
[248]
Edited by: j0sephine on 26/08/2003 14:45:44
"I think the dual 150 should have same ROF as a single 150, and have 1/2 the damage mod. That way, when you take into account it fires medium ammo, it does exactly the same damage."
... Given the dual 150 is a cruiser weapon shouldn't it rather have the same damage modifier like the single 150, so it actually causes more damage when used, justifying larger fitting requirements etc?..
edit: the higher RoF when compared to single 150 makes more sense too, as it's a simple version of the gatling gun... and these fire really fast.
not that i'd like it, being on the receiving end and stuff, but still... :s
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.26 14:48:00 -
[249]
Ideal duel 150mm stats:
Dmg mod: x1.3
Rof: 2.75
Tracking: .03
Optimal range: 15000
Fall out: 7000
Personally i think this would make the duel 150mm rail a viable choice. Right now on chaos it is still not worth the 80 grid it uses compared to its single version which does about the same dmg and uses 16.
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Sarcerok
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Posted - 2003.08.26 15:38:00 -
[250]
OK I did some analysis of large weapons for version 1081. I found that the projectiles did less damage overall compared to hybrids and beams, but the difference was not great. This seems appropriately done to me. I personally did not find the new autocannon stats appealling at all compared to energy or hybrid close range weapons.
The most concerns I have currently are with large energy weapons (which I have been forced to use on my typhoons). Tachyon now seems worse than mega beam since the damage is very similar and they have half the tracking rate. They also consume 70 energy per shot instead of 46 which makes them inferior. I found the best energy weapon available currently to be the dual heavy beam since its damage is only about 15% less than the mega beam and it uses 16 cap per shot instead of 46. It still does way more than hybrids or projectiles and its energy use makes it more efficient than hybrids. Since amarrian ships can now use 7 or 8 of these they can do twice the damage they were doing before and still use less cap. This will make amarrian (and to a lesser extent gallente) battleships too powerful.
This problem is due to the damage per shot being raised substantially but the energy costs per shot have not been modified on any of the weapons from what I can tell.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.26 16:15:00 -
[251]
"... Given the dual 150 is a cruiser weapon shouldn't it rather have the same damage modifier like the single 150, so it actually causes more damage when used, justifying larger fitting requirements etc?.."
The 250 railgun has the same damage modifer as the single 150, and fires slower. I don't think CCP Is going to make the dual 150 better than the 250.
The dual 150 should at the very least be equal in terms of damage to the single 150, and I believe should be slightly ahead. So somewhere between a 1.25 and a 1.5 would be good.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.26 16:18:00 -
[252]
Im not sure as to what the devs idea on the dmgs for each type of weapons should be, but i personally think lasers should not be the most dming weapon type out there. Sure they use allot of cap but they use no ammo, which means u can sit there killing npc's for as long as u want. Also u never have to reload with these weapons, u can change crystal on the fly if the range changes, ect ect ect. Lasers to me seem like they still have too much going for them, they can be the most versitile and be the most dmging at the same time...
Missles should do the most dps hands down, no contest. Reason for this is... Expensive ammo, easy to counter, often blow them selves up. Next in line i think is Hyrbids, they take the most recorces to put on a ship (high grid, highest cpu), and also drain ammo very fast, and use a large ammount of cap per shot. Next up i think should be Lasers with projectiles like 5% behind.
Well thats my 2 cents
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.08.26 16:20:00 -
[253]
Dropping the module discussion for the time being (I think its a moot discussion to be honest, however this doesn't make the argument incorrect), I know you're all disappointed 
1) The Dual-150mm right now has a 80 MW Grid/35 CPU requirement and a 5 cap/shot drain. Right now it is worth mounting over the small rails, less than the 250 rail in a single slot. Making it much better means it could replace the 250 rail...for a fraction of the grid, CPU and cap cost but with shorter range.
2) Improve the tracking on the 'low' and 'middle' autocannon/pulse/blasters so that they track the same at their optimal ranges (IE: the 200mm AC tracks better than the 150 and 125mm.)
3) Mega Pulse and Dual Heavy Pulse lasers have poor tracking for lasers (the beams track better, by a significant margin). In fact, medium turret lasers get increasingly better at tracking as they get bigger (from quad light to heavy beam). Seems out of place to me.
4) Artillary (250, 650, 1200) and Howitzers (280, 720, 1400) have too much falloff range. They outrange railguns and lasers which doesn't seem right, but may be the intent?
5) The 425mm Rail needs better tracking, a maybe a slight reduction in ROF. The Dual-250 could do with a slight reduction in ROF as well (Between 0.5-1.0s)
6) Cap costs across the board should be checked, beams lasers could be slowed down even further and increase their damage mod to compensate.
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Deception + Information + Skill |
Beseb
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Posted - 2003.08.26 17:00:00 -
[254]
You can't reduce the fall-off on proj because they'd be back to square one. Shooting into fall off, by extensive testing, is very hazardous to your DPS.
The miss rate in fall off is marked. Up to about 50%, the DPS hit is managable, but still puts the proj user at a high damage disadvantage to others that shoot in their optimal. Not only do misses occur very frequently, but the damage per hit goes down significantly as well.
To the other poster that thought lasers shouldn't be the most damaging - I disagree. Lasers should pack the most punch. You underestimate energy management which the laser user has to invest in heavily. The laser user must load up on cap management modules while the proj user (and to a lesser degree the hybrid user) can use those slots for damage/tracking/range/defensive modules.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.26 17:24:00 -
[255]
Quote:
1) The Dual-150mm right now has a 80 MW Grid/35 CPU requirement and a 5 cap/shot drain. Right now it is worth mounting over the small rails, less than the 250 rail in a single slot. Making it much better means it could replace the 250 rail...for a fraction of the grid, CPU and cap cost but with shorter range.
Well right now the duel 150mm rail is "barley" better than the single 150mm rails, lets do some general math. duel 150mm rail has a dmg mod of 1, and a rof of 3, 1/3 = .333, the 250mm rail has a dmg mod of 2.5 and a rof of 6 2.5/6 = .4166. Ok from those calculations whe know the 250mm rail had a greater dps than the current duel 150mm rail, which makes perfect sence.
Ok from comparing the duel 150 tot he single we will double the duel 150mm dmg to simulate it uses small ammo (for comparison). Ok so duel 150 is 2/3 = .666666, single 150 is 2.5/4 = .625. Ok so your saying that the 5% difference in dps (about 1-2 dmg a shot) is worth that 64 more power grid and much slower tracking? I dont think it does at all.
Now lets say the duel 150 has a dmg of 1.2 and a rof of 3 thats 1.2/3 = .4, compared to the 250 which is .4166. That is less but not a great deal less, and considering the 250 has 2x the range I think that it makes sence.
Again just my 2 cents.
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Caillech
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Posted - 2003.08.26 17:25:00 -
[256]
just stop trying to get projectiles nerfed more imo ..they arent the best weapon in the game ..(as they are supposed to be) lasers and hybrids still do more dmg
--------
Caillech
Director of Sexual Healing
2003.08.22 16:18:53 -----
Your 1200mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Small Secure Container, wrecking for 1102.9 damage
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.26 17:37:00 -
[257]
"Making it much better means it could replace the 250 rail...for a fraction of the grid, CPU and cap cost but with shorter range."
Part of the problem is the 250 rail isn't even twice as damaging as the 150 rail, given the differences in ROF.
But I think a 4s refire 1.3 damage dual 150 isn't going to replace the 250. A single 250 is more damaging and has a greater range than a single 150. Two 150's are more damaging than one 250, but take up two hi slots instead of 1.
Of course you sacrifice some range for it.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.08.26 17:40:00 -
[258]
Tracking speed of large lasers has been fixed, I will probably be tuning turrets for another whole week before this goes live.
Majors I will doing:
- I will prolly be nerfing fall off range a bit on blasters.
- Capacitor usage, grid & cpu usage tuning still to come.
"Where is my hat?" |
Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2003.08.26 17:46:00 -
[259]
@Lartfor
You seem to have missed the most important part of the post you quoted. The Dual 150mm only uses 5 cap/shot instead of 8 cap/shot. Thats what makes it far better than the single 150mm.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.26 18:00:00 -
[260]
Edited by: Lartfor on 26/08/2003 18:03:44
Quote:
@Lartfor
You seem to have missed the most important part of the post you quoted. The Dual 150mm only uses 5 cap/shot instead of 8 cap/shot. Thats what makes it far better than the single 150mm.
Well actually the 150mm fires at a higher rate of fire, about 25% faster, so basically the duel 150mm rail uses 6.25 cap in the time the single uses 8. Again u have to ask your self
is that 5% more dmg and 1.75 less cap every 4 seconds worth 64 power grid? Also u need to remember the duel 150mm uses medium ammo, weighs 5x as much, yet another down side of the duel compared to the single. Duel is a medium class weapon and should be "superior" to its smaller cousin, the single 150.
There Should be no question as to which weapon system to use on the cruiser if u have that 80 power grid available.
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.08.26 18:45:00 -
[261]
The Dual-150 has a 1.15 damage modifier and a 3s ROF (vs 2.5x and 4s ROF for the Small 250), so the Dual-150 does do more damage. Over a 30s timespan its about 100 points of damage (with AM ammo) for your average combat pilot. Things have changed at a hurried pace and your gun stats today may not reflect what's actually on Chaos today.
I think a 4s refire 1.3 damage dual 150
You probably mean something other than this...this is worse than what's on Chaos at the moment. A 2s ROF 1.25x damage Dual-150 would put the Electron blaster to shame however.
1.5x 4s ROF might be a bit better as it frontloads more damage but about the same DOT as 1.15x 3s ROF.
Get over the 650mm Artillary. Try testing the Howitzers which have a lot longer optimal. Improving tracking instead of the long falloff is a better solution. You'll hit harder, more often but at shorter ranges as opposed to hitting less frequently for less damage but at longer ranges (arts and howitzers are still falloff optimal weapons based on their tracking). You have to be closer to the target compared to Hybrid or Lasers, but Minnie ships do have a base speed advantage over other ships (although this could be tweaked more).
I still stand by the "cut falloff, improve tracking" for arts and howitzers.
No gun 1 size up is twice as effective as its smaller sized counterpart, there is a sloping curve on damage output in both the single shot and DOT. Generally speaking (as in I'm sure someone will post the exception), guns improve by about 30% damage-wise as you go from small to medium, then from medium to large.
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Deception + Information + Skill |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.26 20:06:00 -
[262]
"The Dual-150 has a 1.15 damage modifier and a 3s ROF"
Ah that is decent then. Better than a single 150, not as good as a 250.
Plus a 250 has like twice the range.
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.26 20:52:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Jarjar on 26/08/2003 20:55:19
Quote:
- I will prolly be nerfing fall off range a bit on blasters.
Hmm. How much?
It's not very easy to get in their effective range as it is right now, if they're nerfed to become even worse I don't know what weapons are still useful. Trying to get within 5km in PvP is no fun at all. Since my optimal with ions are 1.38 (1380 meters!), there is no possibility for them to be useful without a decent (15+ km) falloff.
Edit: TomB, please take a look at http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=26225 about large ammo (no pun intended, I suppose) again(?). At least give us an official answer if they will be lowered in size or not. Please?
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Eilora Wingshy
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Posted - 2003.08.26 21:31:00 -
[264]
Whaa? You mean that you can't use AM ammo and get a somewhat decent optimal isn't that what you mean? I don't think the gun really has that opti for base.
Why don't you do what all proj users do, realize that if you want high dmg ammo you have ot make sacrifices. ie, you can't use EMP ammo at all times.. actually you can almost never use it really, but that's another matter.
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My opinions are my own and not those of my corp
I don't suffer from insanity, I revel in it.
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be research. |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.26 21:33:00 -
[265]
Quote:
Whaa? You mean that you can't use AM ammo and get a somewhat decent optimal isn't that what you mean? I don't think the gun really has that opti for base.
Why don't you do what all proj users do, realize that if you want high dmg ammo you have ot make sacrifices. ie, you can't use EMP ammo at all times.. actually you can almost never use it really, but that's another matter.
Well, if I had double range ammo it MAY be useful with optimal range. How about 4.5km? 
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Eilora Wingshy
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Posted - 2003.08.26 21:36:00 -
[266]
I wish I had double range ammo as well.. I think it's a fact that all guns wont be useful really.. not the way it looks like atm methinks. Some guns will just be underpowered, perhaps you'll fit them for the single reason you can't fit another of the good ones.. *shrug*
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My opinions are my own and not those of my corp
I don't suffer from insanity, I revel in it.
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be research. |
Aldre
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Posted - 2003.08.27 10:22:00 -
[267]
I may have missed something but seeing the DOT Tables for all the weapons relative to patch 1183 on chaos, the high end large projectiles (and others versions as well) are only dealing half the damage of the equivelant hybrid guns and not much more than that related to lasers. This is based on the standard weapons with no skills or bonus' applied, but I thought the point of these changes was to make projectiles a viable choice.
Aldre |
Dianabolic
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Posted - 2003.08.27 11:05:00 -
[268]
aldre - they ARE a viable shoice, they use NO CAP!
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Brukhai Khan
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Posted - 2003.08.27 11:51:00 -
[269]
I would rather keep the falloff on the blasters, as it is now it is already hard to get within an effective range.
And using different ammo doesnŠt do squat for blasters (as well as autocannons), since it only affects the optimum range, not the falloff. That means by cutting your damage in half you can extend your optimum by 50%, but half of next to nothing is still next to nothing.
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SWE Hybris
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Posted - 2003.08.27 14:12:00 -
[270]
Hi all!
Hybrids vs Projectiles = Hybrids win all the time.
I just browsed through the replies to this topic and then went onto chaos to check everything out.
I've done some calculations on projectiles vs hybrids. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Skills
Medium Proj lvl 3
Medium Hybr lvl 3
Surgical strike lvl 3
Rapid Fire lvl 3
Ships
Rupture 5% proj ROF per level
MOA 5% hybrid range per level
Lowslots are all filled with Gyrostabs I or Magstabs I
I like to use damage over time in 15 second intervalls. The damage mod I get here is the theoretical damage with antimatter/Emp at optimal range.
The calculations are done in the following ways
Base damage * Weapon skill * Surgical Strike * Lowslots = Damage with skills
Base ROF * (Ship bonus + Rapid fire) * Lowslots = ROF with skills
(15 seconds / ROF with skills) * Damage with skills = DoT(Damage over time)
Please correct me if I'm wrong!
The results:
First projectiles.
425mm projectile
Base dmg 1.5
Base Rof 4.2
Dmg with skill 2.66
Rof with skill 1.93
DoT 20.67
Theoretical Damage w/EMP 20.67*22 = 455 dmg/15 seconds
650mm projectile
Base dmg 3.25
Base Rof 12.75
Dmg with skill 5.76
Rof with skill 5.88
DoT 14.68
Theoretical Damage w/EMP 14.68*22 = 323 dmg/15 seconds
720mm projectile
Base dmg 5
Base Rof 17.75
Dmg with skill 8.87
Rof with skill 7.95
DoT 16.67
Theoretical Damage w/EMP 16.67*22 = 367 dmg/15 seconds
720mm Prototype I(is this a scout?)
Base dmg 5.75
Base Rof 17.75
Dmg with skill 10.2
Rof with skill 7.95
DoT 19.17
Theoretical Damage w/EMP 19.17*22 = 423 dmg/15 seconds
Hybrids:
Heavy ION Blaster(Cannon?)
Base dmg 2.8125
Base Rof 4.5
Dmg with skill 4.98
Rof with skill 2.66
DoT 28.03
Theoretical Damage w/Antimatter 28.03*22 = 617 dmg/15 seconds
Heavy Neutron Blaster(Cannon?)
Base dmg 3.5
Base Rof 5.25
Dmg with skill 6.20
Rof with skill 3.1
DoT 29.94
Theoretical Damage w/Antimatter 29.94*22 = 659 dmg/15 seconds
250mm Railgun
Base dmg 2.5
Base Rof 6
Dmg with skill 4.43
Rof with skill 3.54
DoT 18.73
Theoretical Damage w/Antimatter 18.73*22 = 412 dmg/15 seconds
After you have read this please tell me what if there is a point in using projectiles?
The 250mm Railgun has a theoretical damage almost as high as a 720mm prototype I !!!
And the Heavy ION & Neutron blasters are dealing out 200+ more in damage than the 425mm projectile!
And the 650mm projectile guns doing almost 100 points less damage than the 250mm railgun!
I thought this was going to be a bonus for projectiles but I guess I was wrong.
This sucks. I guess all the hybrid users out there got there way. Nothing has changed.
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