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Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
417
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 07:51:00 -
[31] - Quote
Chic Botany wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:atpc wrote:BoBoZoBo wrote:Tore Vest wrote:Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are I appreciate this man's application of specification. To be fair its a good fact to state. Since there are capital ships in highsec (freighters, orcas, etc). Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships. I don't care what the market category says. Erm so CCP say they're capital ships, the market category says they're capital ships, you need Capital Ship Construction to build them, yet you still insist they're not capital ships? maybe the problem is you not the rest of the world  They are capital ships, just a different capital ship than carriers, dreads, supercaps & titans. As for the main subject, Combat Capital Ships (carriers, dreads etc) in high would be a bad idea since they would be vastly overpowered against anything other than similar class ships, there would have to be so many caveats to allowing them in such as. The inability to target anything Tank severely reduced to maybe double a battleship tank Any extra boosting bonuses (the rorqual) disabled. Basically the ability to buy/sell them in high sec, but since Combat Capitals & Rorquals can't use stargates that would also have to be addressed, or the allowing of cyno's in highsec. So maybe allow them through as passing only, so you didn't have to park cyno chars all over the place, but even then it's not something I would like to see. Can you imagine the traffic jam outside Jita 4-4 Cnap as dozens of carriers / dreads start undocking, it's bad enough with freighters  Not really true. A super can be killed easily by around 20 sub caps. You can guarantee that anyone foolish enough to employ caps in highsec during war would find a crapload of allies joining up with their target to help kill the caps.
Given the number of nuets in local it'd be suicidal to use them. Any nuet could be a cyno alt or a bumper.
In my opinion it was because of the Titan super weapon and the inferiority of sub caps vs the OP,ness of caps at the time. Most or all of which has been nerfed to reasonable levels now.
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Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1144
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 08:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tore Vest wrote:Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are
If they gotta ban something in a place, it's probably a terrible idea in the first place. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |

seth Hendar
I love you miners
188
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 09:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:RomeStar wrote:who gives a flying fck ccp is dumbing down this game day after day anyways. It wouldnt surprise me if a good portion of the ex wow crowd cried so much that ccp lets titans in high sec just to increase sub #'s. Hey look new players you too can fly one of these someday keep resubbing please hilmar needs new jeans. You mad, bro? he might be mad, yes, but he still have a valid point imao, look 2 years back and tell me that the past expansions were not "dumbing eve down" |

Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
127
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 09:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
It is not economically feasible and in practice not even lolworthy to try to gank a slowcat with 4 million ehp before concord concordukens your 250 man talos fleet. |

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
830
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 09:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
UmbraIra wrote:I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.
Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)
Posting in a stealth "allow Rorqual in High Sec" thread. take this filthy miner!
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Gealbhan
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
436
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 10:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Capitol ships themselves are not banned in hi-sec. The cynosural field (an artificial gravity well) that a Capitol Ship's jump drive needs to lock on to in order to make a jump is banned in Hi-sec.  |

Daisai
Daisai Investments.
155
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 11:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
UmbraIra wrote:I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.
Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)
If that would be so then low sec would be completely useless and the only reason to have those systems is the few systems with FW in them. Also high sec is the starting area for players, its where you learn the first basics of pvp in this game.
Null sec however is the end game pvp experience where everything is allowed. |

brinelan
The Flying Dead Insidious Empire
100
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 11:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Whats wrong with having differences between areas of space? Want a cap then get out of hisec. |

Vince Mctavern
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 14:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships. I don't care what the market category says. I feel the same, but more out of habit and desire for an ease of categorisation to other people than any real-world distinction. Being able to categorise Capitals as a class of ships that can only move systems 'via a jump drive to a cyno because they are too big for system gates' feels a lot cleaner than telling them that a Capital ship is one that 'requires Capital Ship Construction to build'. That just feels artificial to me somehow, and forces people unfamiliar with the ships to look up the blueprint information.
To me Freighters and Orcas will always be just 'super Industrials', but I suppose I'll grudgingly recognise them as being a form of capital ship on a good day and to avoid arguments...  |

Lady Naween
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
207
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 14:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
I am all for letting capitals into higsec, but in order to balance it let us remove concord so we can shoot at them as well. :) should make everyone happy right? Highsec gets capitals and gets to have more fun. |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
525
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gealbhan wrote:Capitol ships themselves are not banned in hi-sec. The cynosural field (an artificial gravity well) that a Capitol Ship's jump drive needs to lock on to in order to make a jump is banned in Hi-sec. 
Try building one. This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
525
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:30:00 -
[42] - Quote
Daisai wrote:UmbraIra wrote:I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.
Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)
If that would be so then low sec would be completely useless and the only reason to have those systems is the few systems with FW in them. Also high sec is the starting area for players, its where you learn the first basics of pvp in this game. Null sec however is the end game pvp experience where everything is allowed.
wut? This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
175
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
RP/Lore Reason: High-Sec is Empire Sovreign Space. They ay let you sail your catamaran into New York Harbour, they're not going to let you sail your Aircraft Carrier or Battleship to new York Harbour.
Gameplay Reason: High-Sec is for newer, younger players and for players who prefer a gameplay option different from low and null-sec. Changing Cap rules would eliminate that player-choice fo gameplay style.
Game Design Reason: Other than PvP, there is no game content in High-Sec designed for Capital Class combat ships.
Game Design Decision #2: One of the limitations/drawbacks of Capital Design is difficulty to move around, i.e. no using Star Gates and no going into High-Sec. If we remove these drawbacks, their combat capabillity wound need nerfed to compensate.
In summation: Caps being effectively banned in High-Sec is a lore-consistent choice than meets all the basic needs of intelligent game design, allowing players to choose their cap-free space option while not banning others from caps in low and null, and imposes a reasonbale drawback on Caps that offset their great power.
TLDR Version?
Deal with it. |
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
249

|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:41:00 -
[44] - Quote
Deleted rant subthread that included WOW reference and purposeful avoidance of the profanity filter.
Continue with discussion. ISD Cura Ursus Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Zaxix
Long Jump.
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vince Mctavern wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships. I don't care what the market category says. I feel the same, but more out of habit and desire for an ease of categorisation to other people than any real-world distinction. Being able to categorise Capitals as a class of ships that can only move systems 'via a jump drive to a cyno because they are too big for system gates' feels a lot cleaner than telling them that a Capital ship is one that 'requires Capital Ship Construction to build'. That just feels artificial to me somehow, and forces people unfamiliar with the ships to look up the blueprint information. To me Freighters and Orcas will always be just 'super Industrials', but I suppose I'll grudgingly recognise them as being a form of capital ship on a good day and to avoid arguments...  The term "capital" isn't a classification of purpose or role; it's a measure of size. +1mil volume or greater Bokononist
-á |

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3263
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 17:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...
- it requires capital rigs - it requires capital skills - it can use capital mods
The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.
With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
526
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...
- it requires capital rigs - it requires capital skills - it can use capital mods
The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.
With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term).
Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens.
I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits). This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16557
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...
- it requires capital rigs - it requires capital skills - it can use capital mods
The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.
With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term). Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens. I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits). GǪand? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
282
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dread with small weapons flying disguised as frigate? Look, we have small weapons, we are harmless!  New CQ prototype |

Murk Paradox
Duty. The Cursed Few
526
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Murk Paradox wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...
- it requires capital rigs - it requires capital skills - it can use capital mods
The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.
With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term). Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens. I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits). GǪand?
And that does not make a cruiser a frigate, as was suggested by the poster I quoted.
tl;dr Capital ships do not require capital fittings.
But they are still capitals.
Capitals are capitals are capitals.
And shouldn't be in highsec. This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate. |

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:34:00 -
[51] - Quote
Quote:Why are capitals banned in high sec? Why?
Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides.
If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it... CCP, debuff Barges, or buff Ganking. Either will do for me, but we need more Yaaar! in this game lest it become WoW in Spaaaaace! -á~ Me |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16557
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:37:00 -
[52] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:And that does not make a cruiser a frigate, as was suggested by the poster I quoted. No. What was suggested by the poster was the exact opposite: that what makes a cruiser a cruiser rather than a frigate is its ability to fit cruiser-sized weapons or, more accurately, that what makes a capship a capship rather than some kind of subcap is its ability to fit capship modules, its required use of capital rigs, and that the capship skill is somewhere in its prereq tree.
Quote:tl;dr Capital ships do not require capital fittings. GǪand that was not the suggestion. Rather, the ability to fit capital modules separates capitals from other ship classes. Orcas, not being able to fit capital modules, therefore aren't really capital in that sense. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1593
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
Murk Paradox wrote:(stuff)
The only "required" Capital bits Shah mentioned were rigs and skills (e.g. "Capital Trimark" and "Capital Ships, L1"). He did not say that a capship requires capital mods (just that it has the ability to fit them).
Edit -- Dammit Tippia!  One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:43:00 -
[54] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote: That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.
Since when has that ever been the point of anything? A gang of cruisers or assault frigates can already decimate 'inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players,' and is probably also infeasible for them to deal with. The fact that they can't deal with it is why they lose. Outside of the occasional space-rich player who owns a cap all by himself with no friends because he gets the warm fuzzies, any group that can afford to drop a cap on somebody in highsec is likely very able to drop enough stuff to kill them anyway. That may be a reason they don't 'need' the capitals at all, but the fact remains that having capitals is generally not going to sway a highsec wardec one way or the other. Cynos present a much bigger problem than the caps themselves.
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1491
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:45:00 -
[55] - Quote
Plastic Psycho wrote:Quote:Why are capitals banned in high sec? Why? Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides. If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it...
So bascially, no real reason whatsoever. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16557
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:ShahFluffers wrote: That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.
Since when has that ever been the point of anything? Roughly since capships were thrown out of highsec.
They have no role to fill in that part of space and their presence would offer far too much safety, security, and firepower for the owners compared to what others can throw at them at a whim. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |

Zaxix
Long Jump.
250
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:47:00 -
[57] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...
- it requires capital rigs - it requires capital skills - it can use capital mods From whence is this derived?
It's all about the size, baby. Bokononist
-á |

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1492
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:ShahFluffers wrote: That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.
Since when has that ever been the point of anything? Roughly since capships were thrown out of highsec. They have no role to fill in that part of space and their presence would offer far too much safety, security, and firepower for the owners compared to what others can throw at them at a whim.
Really? So if I had a capship in high sec, you're saying with certainty that no one else would ever have a 'whim' to send their capitals after mine? Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruiting pilots for lowsec solo & small gang operations. Visit our website at www.rifterlings.com or join our in game channel weflyrifters to speak to a recruiter. |

Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
507
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Plastic Psycho wrote:Quote:Why are capitals banned in high sec? Why? Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides. If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it... So basically, no real reason whatsoever. Yeah, more-or-less so. Basically "Cause CCP sez." CCP, debuff Barges, or buff Ganking. Either will do for me, but we need more Yaaar! in this game lest it become WoW in Spaaaaace! -á~ Me |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16557
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 18:51:00 -
[60] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Really? So if I had a capship in high sec, you're saying with certainty that no one else would ever have a 'whim' to send their capitals after mine? I'm saying that if you had a capship in highsec, I should be able to gank it on the undock in <5 seconds using maybe 5GÇô10 ships flown by trial accounts.
The fact that you are escalating this on-a-whim attack to using capships demonstrates the entire problem. It is exactly that kind of requirement that is to be avoided. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
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