Admit you were a bit excited when you saw your first titan.

I cant think of a reason for it.

Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are

I appreciate this man's application of specification.

Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are

Really?

If you were a sovereign nation exerting full dominion over your defined territories, would you allow non-State-affiliated riff-raff to just waltz around with tanks equipped with depleted uranium shells violencing your women and sowing your fields with salt?

No? Good answer. Yes? Then I have a bridge to sell you.

To be fair its a good fact to state. Since there are capital ships in highsec (freighters, orcas, etc).

Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are

So, this bridge you speak of... arch, beam, truss or suspension? My, uhh, mother wants to know.

Outside of what Tippa said...

Look up the stats of capital reps (local and remote) and capital jump drives... then crunch some numbers.

Now take "normal" annoying situations like station games, high-sec war decs, and force projection and apply those same numbers.

Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are

Incorrect, CCP have moved several capitals from before the ban on highsec capitals to null.

No, you can in fact have capitals in hisec (see: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Veldnaught), you just aren't allowed to use their guns, shoot anything, or rep anything. But *having* the capitals in hisec is not strictly forbidden.

To be fair its a good fact to state. Since there are capital ships in highsec (freighters, orcas, etc).

who gives a flying fck ccp is dumbing down this game day after day anyways. It wouldnt surprise me if a good portion of the ex wow crowd cried so much that ccp lets titans in high sec just to increase sub #'s. Hey look new players you too can fly one of these someday keep resubbing please hilmar needs new jeans.

I don't personally see this as a reason to disallow them. People can already either win their high sec wars, or they can't. If someone can field capitals for a high sec war, then they were already capable of fielding enough of anything else to stomp someone's ass, and likely at a much cheaper price.

I wouldn't be against letting capitals ship entering empire, but for a short amount of time. Something like 24h before the navy or any players can freely shoot it without Concord interfering. This way, caps would be able to move from one null/LS region to another one using hi sec. Of course, no weapons or drones could be used in this 24h (so, no carrier doing lv4 or dread used to bash a pos in empire) and no, we couldn't still build them in empire.

I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)

You can go in high sec if iam right but only for incursion so well there you have it. Ow you need a jump bridge to. If iam right.

Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.

Erm so CCP say they're capital ships, the market category says they're capital ships, you need Capital Ship Construction to build them, yet you still insist they're not capital ships?

maybe the problem is you not the rest of the world

They are capital ships, just a different capital ship than carriers, dreads, supercaps & titans.

As for the main subject, Combat Capital Ships (carriers, dreads etc) in high would be a bad idea since they would be vastly overpowered against anything other than similar class ships, there would have to be so many caveats to allowing them in such as.
The inability to target anything
Tank severely reduced to maybe double a battleship tank
Any extra boosting bonuses (the rorqual) disabled.

Basically the ability to buy/sell them in high sec, but since Combat Capitals & Rorquals can't use stargates that would also have to be addressed, or the allowing of cyno's in highsec.
So maybe allow them through as passing only, so you didn't have to park cyno chars all over the place, but even then it's not something I would like to see. Can you imagine the traffic jam outside Jita 4-4 Cnap as dozens of carriers / dreads start undocking, it's bad enough with freighters

Capitals are not banned in highsec.... cynos are

You mad, bro?

I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)

I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)

Freighters, orcas, and jump freighters are not capital ships.
I don't care what the market category says.

Capitol ships themselves are not banned in hi-sec. The cynosural field (an artificial gravity well) that a Capitol Ship's jump drive needs to lock on to in order to make a jump is banned in Hi-sec.

If that would be so then low sec would be completely useless and the only reason to have those systems is the few systems with FW in them.
Also high sec is the starting area for players, its where you learn the first basics of pvp in this game.

Null sec however is the end game pvp experience where everything is allowed.

I feel the same, but more out of habit and desire for an ease of categorisation to other people than any real-world distinction. Being able to categorise Capitals as a class of ships that can only move systems 'via a jump drive to a cyno because they are too big for system gates' feels a lot cleaner than telling them that a Capital ship is one that 'requires Capital Ship Construction to build'. That just feels artificial to me somehow, and forces people unfamiliar with the ships to look up the blueprint information.

To me Freighters and Orcas will always be just 'super Industrials', but I suppose I'll grudgingly recognise them as being a form of capital ship on a good day and to avoid arguments...

Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

The Orca is not a true capital ship in that it fulfills none of the above conditions. It uses large rigs, doesn't require any real capital skills, and it has less PG and CPU than a battleship.

With regards to Freighters and Jump Freighters... they are "special snowflakes" in more than one way. While they are considered capitals they can somehow fit through stargates. They also posses no ability to fit anything... though that is probably for the best as opening up both ships to fittings would create a host of issues (both immediate and long term).

Try putting a large rail on a dread and see what happens.

I bet it's very similar as to when you put small lasers on a cruiser. (ie- it fits).

GǪand?

Why are capitals banned in high sec?

And that does not make a cruiser a frigate, as was suggested by the poster I quoted.

tl;dr Capital ships do not require capital fittings.

(stuff)

That's not the point. It's a matter of what is more feasible for inexperienced, poor, and/or already stomped players to deal with.

Why?

Same reason I can't have a coastal artillery gun in my front yard; Hilariously over-powered for any rational purpose, ludicrously impractical for any irrational purpose, worries the government, scares the neighbors and wakes their dogs, and is an eyesore besides.

If I had my own island empire, OTOH, I might have some use for it...

Since when has that ever been the point of anything?

Actually, in order to say a ship is a "true" capital...

- it requires capital rigs
- it requires capital skills
- it can use capital mods

Roughly since capships were thrown out of highsec.

They have no role to fill in that part of space and their presence would offer far too much safety, security, and firepower for the owners compared to what others can throw at them at a whim.

So basically, no real reason whatsoever.

Really? So if I had a capship in high sec, you're saying with certainty that no one else would ever have a 'whim' to send their capitals after mine?

aside from having no role, and offering too much in terms of tank and firepower when coupled with the security mechanisms of highsec.

Which mechanisms?

Surely you're not arguing that they shouldn't be in high sec because it would be too hard/costly to gank them?

Of course I am, because that's one of the reasons they're not allowed there any more.

That's a pretty silly reason.

No. What was suggested by the poster was the exact opposite: that what makes a cruiser a cruiser rather than a frigate is its ability to fit cruiser-sized weapons or, more accurately, that what makes a capship a capship rather than some kind of subcap is its ability to fit capship modules, its required use of capital rigs, and that the capship skill is somewhere in its prereq tree.

GǪand that was not the suggestion. Rather, the ability to fit capital modules separates capitals from other ship classes. Orcas, not being able to fit capital modules, therefore aren't really capital in that sense.

Does the Orca require the Capital Ships skill to fly? Too lazy to check

Well if anything, it gives Null sec a certain vibe, as for many its the place where these large ships everyone keeps hearing about are found.

Makes it more exciting for the newer players.

Admit you were a bit excited when you saw your first titan.

Does the Orca require the Capital Ships skill to fly? Too lazy to check

Speaking of which...

Is a jump drive considered a capital module? (Not micro jump drive which admittedly is a new addition to Eve)

I did find this little gem though on the eve wiki-

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Orca

When you go down to ship classifications it does list the Orca as a capital.

Blame CCP maybe?

The Orca is an industrial command ship, not a capital industrial ship.

Then CCP should correct their wiki as it is a source of information for capsuleers.

As you can see, it is listed as a capital ship.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Personally I wouldn't count an orca as a cap ship. IMO even Blops are more similar to cap ships than Orcas.

Freighters and Jump freighters though.... I personally don't see the argument against counting them as capitals.

They're allowed into highsec, can be built in highsec, and can use stargates. They're not capitals.

Except nothing I said was incorrect and it provides a very clear definition.

If I have to go with a definition of capitals, which one do you think I should use: the one some random guy provides, or the one provided by ccp?

It just happens to be wrong. According to ccp anyway, but what do they know?

CCP doesn't provide a definition GÇö only an arbitrary designation.

Oh, and the wiki is not a reliable source for anything, especially not the CCP-exclusive and locked-down pages.

And that arbitrary designation is what the discussion is about. And that arbitrary designation is provided by CCP, who also happens to provide a definition for said designation.

No, nothing I said was wrong, according to CCP or otherwise.

They're allowed into highsec, can be built in highsec, and can use stargates. They're not capitals.

The "arbitrary designation" capital ships includes orcas, freighters, and jump freighters.

GǪwhich don't actually fit under the (non-official) description of what makes a capital ship a capital ship that some players invented when writing that page:

GÇ£A capital ship is any of a class of ships requiring the Capital Ship Assembly Array to constructGÇ¥ GÇö which Orcas, freighters and JFs don't.

GÇ£Capital ships are also unique within Eve in that they cannot use the jump gate networkGÇ¥ GÇö which Orcas, freighters and JFs can.

GÇ£Only capitals are able to fit capital-class tanking modulesGÇ¥ GÇö which Orcas, freighters, and JFs can't.

But Orcas and jump freighters and freighters are really really big! That means they're capital ships! Big = capital ship!


Anyway, you know what other subclass of ship has a clear and concise definition not given by CCP? Supercapitals. As in, the two ship types incapable of docking in stations or traversing any kind of wormhole, and which must be built in Capital Ship Assembly Arrays (which require sovereignty and an ihub upgrade).

No, nothing I said was wrong, according to CCP or otherwise.

If you feel strongly about it, change the article on CCP's wiki. Until then, I see orcas, freighter, and jump freighters listed as capitals, they're capitals.

I have no intention of starting an edit war. It's preposterous however that merely editing a wiki article should be enough to change your opinion.

It would hardly change my opinion. What CCP does or does not do after the change to the wiki might change my position.

That only raises the question of what exact characteristic it is you use to choose to see them as capital ships. Sounds like it's just market placementGǪ

Of course, going by the market placement, HACs were not cruisers for the longest time.

But Orcas and jump freighters and freighters are really really big! That means they're capital ships! Big = capital ship!

I like this: Super dooper big shiny = capital!

Honestly, they're listed as capitals in game, they're listed as capitals on the official wiki, ccp considers them capitals. They're capitals, until CCP says otherwise. Appeal to authority argument for the win.

So if the rendering loop was bugged and they only showed up the size of pods, you'd no longer consider them capitals?

Again, they're listed as capitals in the market GÇö in the inventory, there isn't even such a classification as a capship; some non-authority has listed them in an unofficial wiki page; and CCP doesn't offer any direct consideration at all. The closest is their rules against getting new capital ships into highsec GÇö a rule that explicitly does not include the three ship classes in question.

So they really have to say anything at all before they can start to say GÇ£otherwiseGÇ¥.

The official wiki lists them as capitals, feel free to change it if you like.

They are listed in game as capitals.

You can say they don't fit in well with capitals until you're blue in the face, I don't care.

GǪexcept, of course, that it's not an official page GÇö those are locked down and under the control of CCP (and thus even more unreliable than the player-made ones).

GǪin the market, but not the inventory. That's part of the hilarity of it all: the game itself can't make up its mind.

I'm merely asking you what characteristics you've chosen to follow to make such a firm statement. I could just be mean and ask you which characteristics you've chosen to ignore to come to this conclusion, but that's just a matter of six of one or half a dozen of the otherGǪ

Do people want to use their purple items so much in highsec they decided that running l4s in a carrier is the way to go

Of course I am, because that's one of the reasons they're not allowed there any more.

You can't do missions with them because of gates and ship restrictions.

Against subcaps they're worse then battleships in terms of DPS. Against subcaps they're very easy to kill.

i think they will allow capital in highsec when player start conquer empire space in future game's expension.

If that ever happens, it won't be highsec anymore.

I was gonig to read throguh the thread but then did a TL:DR

I always through the whole no Caps in High sec was a storyline thing.. as in the major Parties dont want cilvillians flying around in massive ships of war.

but then again i havent really read all of the storyline stuff.. (I'm sure its great and i would love it.. I'm just more focused on the player politics then the NPC)

Not all missions use acceleration gates.


Not sure where you got that impression. A sentry fit carrier can get better DPS than a Vindicator, with the tracking and range of, well, sentries.

You know, if they would just come out with a heavy battleship that could fit one dread weapon there would be no need for caps in highsec and everything would be better balanced.

Just sayin'...

You know, if they would just come out with a heavy battleship that could fit one dread weapon there would be no need for caps in highsec and everything would be better balanced.

Just sayin'...

Because super tough-guy ships belong in super tough-guy space.

Superbattleships would be cool. Not sure what CCP was thinking when they jumped from ships of around 200k EHP max to millions and then made them the equivalent of a siege catapult (structure bashing), WoW portal (titans) and a holy priest (carrier).

They skipped over the Yamato Bisimark class ships we could have used for shooting players and went with giant healing portal creating castle breach garbage.

Super battleships ftw

based on when they came out ... it's because (large) POS are so damn hard to take down with BS.

Sm and Med aren't terrible -- but you can break them with only a handful of pilots in BS (or tier3 BC ... uh ... "attack bc" now?) fielding meta guns and faction ammo.

It almost feels like the original idea was for towers to be split by "security region" -- i.e. hisec got smalls, lowsec got meds, and nullsec got larges ... but corps/alliances/solo players got too rich for that to really work out ...

A capital ship is a ship that requires the capital ships skill.

Ships that require the capital ships skill:
Rorqual, Archon, Thanatos, Nidhoggur, Chimera, Revelation, Moros, Naglfar, Phoenix, Aeon, Nyx, Hel, Wyvern, Revenant, Avatar, Erebus, Ragnarok, and Leviathan.

Notice that this list incorporates every ship in the game that cannot use stargates, has too much mass to traverse wormholes into highsec, and cannot be built in highsec. Then it becomes much easier to just say "you cannot build capital ships in highsec, use stargates in a capital ship, or pass through a wormhole to highsec in a capital ship."

Except it would be extremely easy to gank them wouldn't it?

More importantly, CCP says exploitcapital. What you say is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship

I wanna see this footage of a Capital Combat Ship exploding at the hands of CONCORD.

NOW !!!!!!!!!

Yet another thing that make the various security sectors different.

The difference isn't a bad thing.

I cant think of a reason for it. Concord Melts them just as fast as any other ship and theyre not really useful for ganking due to damage application vs non capitals. Ship restrictions seem against the spirit of the game.

Is CCP afraid of Jita 4-4 exploding in a glorious rain of doomsday weapons? (Note I am unaware if NPC stations can even take damage)

Yes this whole restiction is stupid things that make opened universe look unrealistic, in RL tanks or carriers are able to explole air and seas withoult limits but military order, here no things like you cant neter this ocean because bla bla bla, well capitals are not allowed in some regions because of game mechanic hoverwer this still give stupid look at this matter.

I must be stupid because I don't understand how one can get Leviathan into a .6 system even on Sisi.

So Russia can just park its tanks in Atlanta, Georgia whenever it wants. Cause your suggesting that (for example) titans from the CFC (Sovereign entity) should be allowed to park in Jita (Part of the Caldari Sovereign entity).

Physics allow enter all military class vessels and ships without restriction to any area in earth.... Politics is other thing, If Russians want they can do it in theory because here no limitts to move psyhical obiect with mass to x place on earth...

So Russia can just park its tanks in Atlanta, Georgia whenever it wants. Cause your suggesting that (for example) titans from the CFC (Sovereign entity) should be allowed to park in Jita (Part of the Caldari Sovereign entity).

Buy one and undock.

Supers aren't on market on sisi.

Yes this whole restiction is stupid things that make opened universe look unrealistic, in RL tanks or carriers are able to explole air and sea-oceans withoult limits , here no things like you cant enter this ocean because bla bla bla, well capitals are not allowed in some regions because of game mechanic howerver this still give stupid look at this matter.

Go buy a a main battle tank and roll it down your capitals streets.

There are quite a lot of military vehicles which are privately owned. Weapons disabled in most cases. However the analogy you made doesnt really apply to EvE since we owned and operate ships up to battleship class and at least one dread is in highsec already.

Go fly a military Iranian jet over America.

Hell, try flying an American registered plane over somewhere like the white house or area 51.

Supers aren't on market on sisi.

They are when they need to be. Such is the nature of the test server. After that, it's just a matter of hoping that they'll wait a while before the next character mirroring so you can enjoy your 100-stack of Erebuses.

Go fly a military Iranian jet over America.

Hell, try flying an American registered plane over somewhere like the white house or area 51.

....and this thread needs a Tippia argument.

I believe that the proper plurality of that is "Erebii", Tippia, as in: "Damnit, PL dropped a fuckton of Erebii on my noobship"

Even if it's not, it sounds cooler.....and this thread needs a Tippia argument.

Go fly a military Iranian jet over America.

Hell, try flying an American registered plane over somewhere like the white house or area 51.

General rule of of ancient plurals: if you think it ends with -ii, it doesn't.

Based on that, any member of a SOV holding alliance should be barred from entering empire space unless they were given trespassing rights.