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Troezar
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Posted - 2003.08.25 11:44:00 -
[61]
Ok how about this, please feel free to criticise!
Add one fixed module per battleship which is unique non-removable and defines that ship type.
e.g. Special ECM module on Scorpion, Caldari as supposed to be hi-tech then give them an edge in this.
One particularly good laser on an Apoc or maybe a drone only Gallente b'ship can carry. A Raven could have an advanced missile launcher (if missiles get sorted of course)
This seems to make sense and would give ships a bit more individuality and a reason other than slot layout or grid/cpu size. I don't see any point in having ships so customisable that they all end all the same we have 4 races all with specialities lets see some of this reflected more in the ships. I'd like to have a ship with a weapon on board I know the opposition don't have...
Of course if you wanted to be really radical you would only allow lasers on Amarr, Hybrids on Gall and Caldari and Projs on Minmatar rather than the current bonus system. But that probably happens anyway.
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Iridina
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:10:00 -
[62]
These changes sound quite good.
Mary Anne, the people who made their decisions about obtaining battleships can sell their current ones and buy the new ones, their prices shouldn't be affected by much. Continuous boosting with no nerfing would lead to (effect) inflation, which isn't that nice. You'd need to boost everything, just to realize nothing actually happened, and that some balance might've been lost along the way, not good.
Dominix - Megathron,
dnix absolutely does not need any boosts, it's the best close range damage dealing ship already (using blaster cannons and having the ability to equip 7 dmgboosters due to its high cpu), and because its 5 medslots it's quite versatile in addition to that as well.
Mega now got the tunes it needed to make it a viable choice (in relation to dnix), more turrets, overall betters stats, but a bit less cpu, one less medslot and half dronebay makes them both useful. Good balance.
Scorpion - Raven
To be solved by missile tuning. Definitely in the end the choice will be interesting, and scorpion will forever be the best support ship, but Raven will probably be The missile platform.
Armageddon - Apocalypse
Apoc was clearly better than arma already before, after these latest pathces, it seems like there's no reason to choose arma over apoc? Giving apoc 50 cpu is ok, but if I were asked, I'd give arma an additional 50 as well. It's still not enough to equip a full set of tachyons and dmgboosters, but still enough to have arma have some edge over apoc, but also weaker and severaly lacking ability to specialize.
Typhoon - Tempest
I have no first hand experience on these, but it looks like this issue isn't going to solved well before the missile tune kicks in. Judging from the numbers alone, they both seem a bad choice generally, just like raven. Depending on the tune, things will swing either way. Typhoon having more lowslots and cpu will make it better choice in some occasions, but Tempest has more grid and turret hardpoints. After this patch, the advantages of Typhoon over Tempest narrow down though, as it will have only 50 more cpu, and one lowslot more.
So, in the end, it seems like the choices between dominix-megathron and scorpion-raven will be the interesting ones, whereas the choice between armageddon-apoc and tempest-typhoon will almost always swing towards the level 2 ship.
--Irid
--Irid |
John Zeppe
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:21:00 -
[63]
" it seems like there's no reason to choose arma over apoc?"
Do you find a reason to choose a level 1 cruiser over a level 3 cruiser, if you've got the money to buy both?
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ROFL
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:24:00 -
[64]
 Quote:
Armageddon - Apocalypse
Apoc was clearly better than arma already before, after these latest pathces, it seems like there's no reason to choose arma over apoc?
Price. When we stop trying to turn all battleships into the same ship with a different skin, the prices will be the deciding factor. We can't all have the same battleship with the same stats. Stop whining about how the megathron cant mount 4 tachyons because it doesn't have the same power grid as the Apoc. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THAT WAY.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:40:00 -
[65]
Brilliant argument. With that we wouldn't had to "suffer" an balancing. Pro's uber - it's supposed to be that way. Tachyon having tracking of hybrid blasters - it's supposed to be that way.
free speech not allowed here |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:40:00 -
[66]
Regarding the 5th low-slot on Raven not being needed... well, there's more thing to put in there other than weapon upgrades. Armor and shield upgrades for example, or power diagnostics, or capacitor power relays to allow you to run more hardeners, or those sensor upgrades etc.
I'm very happy with the 5th low-slot. And it definitly shouldn't have another med-slot, that's what the Scorpion is for.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Raven DeBlade
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:55:00 -
[67]
Raven is still the weakest Battleship, even weaker than level 1 battleships, so still no reason to get 1
"To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees"
"Any statements made above this line are my persona" |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.08.25 12:55:00 -
[68]
"I'm currently making tests with missiles on Chaos, but I'm using test missiles and changing them every 5 minutes so I won't be changing current missiles for players to test until I get some success. It will probably take a while before they will work as intended. The changes will be cruise missiles and torpedos having slow agility but high max velocity, for slow accelerating but get high speed, long range missiles."
TomB can we get a missile changes thread when you start changing those more extensively?
I've seen some people say that what we need are battleship sized launchers. That is the last thing we need. Missiles do not do more damage when fired from larger launchers. All the large launchers do is make you fire slower.
What we need are for missiles to travel MUCH faster and remove all the bugs. Also I think they need to be fired faster. Oh, and take up less space in the cargo hold and cost less.
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TomB
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Posted - 2003.08.25 13:05:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Armageddon - Apocalypse
Apoc was clearly better than arma already before, after these latest pathces, it seems like there's no reason to choose arma over apoc? Giving apoc 50 cpu is ok, but if I were asked, I'd give arma an additional 50 as well. It's still not enough to equip a full set of tachyons and dmgboosters, but still enough to have arma have some edge over apoc, but also weaker and severaly lacking ability to specialize.
Typhoon - Tempest
I have no first hand experience on these, but it looks like this issue isn't going to solved well before the missile tune kicks in. Judging from the numbers alone, they both seem a bad choice generally, just like raven. Depending on the tune, things will swing either way. Typhoon having more lowslots and cpu will make it better choice in some occasions, but Tempest has more grid and turret hardpoints. After this patch, the advantages of Typhoon over Tempest narrow down though, as it will have only 50 more cpu, and one lowslot more.
The Armageddon can still deal more damage than the Apocalypse, it has one more low slot it can use for damage booster and it has skill speciality 5% faster rate of fire per level.
The Minmatar battleships have projectile speciality with their battleship skill. They are a bit weaker than other ships but you have to count in that if they choice projectiles, they are not loosing much capacitor. And yes they will both get a major boost when missiles will get more useful (working pretty well so far on Chaos, tuning still needed though).
"Where is my hat?" |
Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.25 13:14:00 -
[70]
Quote:
So, in the end, it seems like the choices between dominix-megathron and scorpion-raven will be the interesting ones, whereas the choice between armageddon-apoc and tempest-typhoon will almost always swing towards the level 2 ship.
Isnt that how its supose to be? Lvl 2 ships cost more, take more time to train for, thus they should be better in most situations....
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Berged
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Posted - 2003.08.25 13:21:00 -
[71]
You can say one on one yadder yadder yadder but isnt eve played in corps? Therefore when pvp pirate hunting you are rarely going to be alone as that is suicidal. Most of the time you will have a jammer ship supporting a gun or missile boat such as the raven or apoc. The drone ships can be used as well then when the enemys locked down. Arguing about everything here isnt going to do a lot as all items have something to combat it, its what you use when your hunting that makes the difference.
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Gan Ning
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Posted - 2003.08.25 14:32:00 -
[72]
Hi TomB,
How about a change to Raven's bonus stats by giving it 5% Missile Speed, and 5% Missile Damage per level?
Then fix missiles so that they don't collide with each other. Also fix Defender and FoF missiles as they are really busted and go after the sender or his friends most of the time.
I havent seen any damage mods for Missiles and I assume that there aren't any. So for a Raven to be a competitive Lv2 Battleship it needs better missile bonuses.
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Nightwing
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Posted - 2003.08.25 15:04:00 -
[73]
Please tell me again why the Raven is the slowest Battleship?
Caldari are supposed to be fast high tech right?
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Miriel Arkonis
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Posted - 2003.08.25 15:54:00 -
[74]
Quote:
" it seems like there's no reason to choose arma over apoc?"
Do you find a reason to choose a level 1 cruiser over a level 3 cruiser, if you've got the money to buy both?
Yes, Blackbird.
If you're Amarr and want to use drones you might buy an Arbitrator rather than switch to Gallente, you certainly won't use a Maller.
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NTRabbit
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Posted - 2003.08.25 16:00:00 -
[75]
I like the idea of a missile damage and ROF bonus on the Raven, much more useful than the current one.
And the minmatar ships are supposed to be the fastest - perhaps the Raven can have an equal speed to the apoc or megathron (whichever is slowest) or remain at its current speed, but have a high agility, ie can turn faster and evade turret fire a little better. The Raven's lack of mass compared to the other lvl 2 battleships would certainly indicate that such a thing is true.
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#eve-online irc.stratics.com - Former official IRC channel (Legacy)
#eve-online irc.coldfront.net - Official Unofficial IRC channel
WE R 4TW! |
John Zeppe
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Posted - 2003.08.25 16:26:00 -
[76]
Quote:
Quote:
" it seems like there's no reason to choose arma over apoc?"
Do you find a reason to choose a level 1 cruiser over a level 3 cruiser, if you've got the money to buy both?
Yes, Blackbird.
If you're Amarr and want to use drones you might buy an Arbitrator rather than switch to Gallente, you certainly won't use a Maller.
I actually meant level 1, not "lower than level 3". BB is level 2. 
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:24:00 -
[77]
Edited by: The Wretch on 25/08/2003 17:29:49
Qball the raven can not get seven medium slots. Medium slot rule the world. I almost think it should loose a medium slot when missles get fixed and pick up 2 low slots. You are being a greedy ****  . But yeah - it is funny seeing your missles blow up on you when we spare for fun.
"Also all battleships are way too cheap. It's ridiculous that so many people are using them. Frigates are nothing more then a steppingstone to the cruiser after which they become useless. And from the cruiser to battleship may last a bit longer eventually everybody will get there."
Okay - I think the wealth and large amount of buyers to Techell have gotten you a little out of touch here. They are by no means cheap - especially for the casual player. You go into battle with a bship your ass is a lot more uptight about loosing it then some dime a dozen cruiser.
I think what you are seeing is a lot more ppl working harder and playing smarter to get the funds to purchase them. EvE has been out a while now and ppl have had time to accumulate wealth. You are just now seeing it spent.
I know several players who have lost bships that simply quit after it since can be a ***** getting the resources together to replace it.
I have an arma, apoc, and purchasing a raven next weekend (then the mega and tempest). None of them are cheap imo - even with the nice price Techell and TTI gives Cyberdyne.
Suggestion: Why not increase the skill bonuses given to T2 bships or give 3 bonuses instead of 2?
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Shill DeGruin
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Posted - 2003.08.25 17:30:00 -
[78]
Hi ... thanks for looking at Battleship balance guys.
Whilst boosts to CPU , speed, power etc are welcomed, I'd have to agree with Stavros that slot allocation is really what determines the strength of a ship.
Take for example the Dominix .... I'd still prefer to use it over a Megathron even with these latest boosts. Why ? Simply because Dominix has more medium slots and as many low slots. This allows versatility. I'm sure that there are many out there who would say something similar regards the Apoc/Armageddon.
I'm off the opinion that in general, rank 2 battleships should not have weaker stats/slots than their rank 1 counterparts ( unless they are designed with a quirk in mind that bestows a major advantage at the expense of another area eg Scorpion ...with 8 meds but only 4 highs )
Anyway ...just my 2 cents worth. Hope you experiment with med slots too :)
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 18:21:00 -
[79]
Same here - I don't want to give up a med slot.
The tempest looks now nice, though - 5 med and 6 low. If it only wouldn't be so ugly.
free speech not allowed here |
Eilora Wingshy
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Posted - 2003.08.25 19:39:00 -
[80]
*slaps ana* Oh shuush with you.. the Tempest is the most beutifully crafted vessel ever to have flown through the blackness of space! (closelly followed by the mega. I won't even comment on those poor flying cigarthingys, or the guppy =/)
*pets the Tempest*
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My opinions are my own and not those of my corp
I don't suffer from insanity, I revel in it.
If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be research. |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.25 19:55:00 -
[81]
*watches Eilora slapping a random bystander*
Er - Hello? I'm over here.
*handsa leaflet about glasses & a magnifying lens to Eilora*
free speech not allowed here |
eriq
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Posted - 2003.08.25 20:12:00 -
[82]
one thing that's important imo, the move from a lvl 1 ship to a lvl 2 should be a no brainer. the lvl 2 ship should always be superior to a lvl 1 of the same race. i believe the apoc achieves this over the arma, the mega also meets this goal although the 5th med slot on the dominix is a bit iffy.
don't know squat about the typhoon/tempest.
this brings us to the raven/scorp issue. this is not a logical progression decision that's made here it's a complete change of philosophy, you either do ew OR you go with missiles. if you want to make the raven superior to the scorp give it the same med slots and add the missile bonuses or not, that makes it a no brainer upgrade path with the increased shields and such.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.08.25 20:51:00 -
[83]
"i believe the apoc achieves this over the arma"
In terms of damage my arma puts my apoc to shame due to the 8 low slots and the rof bship bonus the arma has.
The extra medium slot is nice in the apoc, but hardly separates the performance between the two.
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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Shill DeGruin
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Posted - 2003.08.25 21:09:00 -
[84]
Likewise the extra medium and low slot for a Dominix makes it more than a match for a Megathron ( which although it has more high slots suffers from a lack of CPU to make use of them )
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Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.08.25 23:33:00 -
[85]
I wish there were no 'levels' in ships.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.08.25 23:38:00 -
[86]
"I wish there were no 'levels' in ships."
Yup, me too. This was brought up alot while the game was in beta, and while it did get a bit better, it could still be alot less wasteful. I have for example never, ever seen a Heron flying around, and it's such a good looking ship too.
In a perfect world there would be a reason to use every single ship out there.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Xelios
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Posted - 2003.08.26 00:52:00 -
[87]
That all depends Wretch. An extra med slot can be invaluable in battle, it's an extra EM hardener which blocks even more of your damage, negating any extra low slots you may have.
I do think the Apoc should have the same ROF bonus though.
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QBall
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Posted - 2003.08.26 02:48:00 -
[88]
You know whats funny, is my raven couldn't even kill a frig, I'm sad now, plus the Test server update doesn't have my raven so I'm stuck using the megathron oh well :(
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"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
QBall
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Posted - 2003.08.26 04:08:00 -
[89]
Another thing of curiousity, on the Raven and Scorpion is that, they are both missle heavy, but both of them have the extremely low cargo for their respective battleship classes.
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"OMG IT'S TRAMMEL 2.0!!!!"
-QBall
And
QQ is QQ |
Roloco
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Posted - 2003.08.26 07:12:00 -
[90]
Ammo Hold is all I can say. Its like a drone bay and cargo hold just is used only to hold ammo and it would make battleships (and other combat ships). Hold tons of ammo on a Bship like it should and keep haulers the king of cargo space. This could solve Battleships ammo space prob (esp with large ammo and missiles taking up so much space). Just a thought.... there is a few threads on the topic and no one yet to my knowledge has disagreed on it.. Any down side to this? If ya want you should read some of the threads on it... There some ware in this section 
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