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NomadLord
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Posted - 2003.08.28 12:08:00 -
[121]
 Quote:
Quote:
All ships will get updated.
TomB, I got zero understanding on your approach. Here is why:
1. Players already knew about battleship balance and got their battleships accordingly.
2. Players invested huge amounts of isk in their battleships (isk=game time) only to have you turning everything around at once now??
3. I see no need to change battleship balance this way. I deem it more important to correct the current imbalance in future.
Critic is easy, so here comes my suggestion:
1. Balance the battleships thoroughly by boosting stats - a lil bit more a boost for one, a lil less a boost for another (in case you really think its needed to equal out battleships for every role)
2. Introduce the balanced battleships as tech 2 or Version 2 of the old type, which can be acquired separately.
3. One thing to consider: I deem it pointless to have any battleship with only 3 slots in one category. Maybe even 4 is too less. Please review that.
quote]
I really agree with u about that,having the same slots as most or less then a cruiser its not logical in my opinion;even if for example on the armageddon u have 8 turrets i think i would sacrifice one high slot for 1 medium;
Hope that many of u share this thought.
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ULTIMA TREX
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Posted - 2003.08.28 13:54:00 -
[122]
i would rather sacrifice a high slot(non turret slot) for a medium slot too. i dont find smartbombs and vampire tools very useful.
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Iridina
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Posted - 2003.08.28 14:33:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Iridina on 28/08/2003 14:38:50
Quote:
Quote:
I really agree with u about that,having the same slots as most or less then a cruiser its not logical in my opinion;even if for example on the armageddon u have 8 turrets i think i would sacrifice one high slot for 1 medium;
Hope that many of u share this thought.
Perhaps the high-damage for affordable price setup on armageddon was achieved by sacrificing medslots? So when you choose your ship, keep this in mind. If you're just working your way towards apocalypse, and dont really care for the high damage of arma, then you don't _really_ need the 4th medslot, as you will be ditching the arma for apoc anyway?
For those cases where high damage is required, it should come with some weaknesses as well, and in the case of arma, less medslots meaning less maneuverability/resistances.
If you want something else, get another ship, there's a lot to choose from :)
--Irid |
Jerrico Delen
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Posted - 2003.08.28 14:33:00 -
[124]
It would be nice to allow people to move items up slots e.g. put a low slot item in a medium slot, or even a high slot if they want to.
This would increase the flexibility of the ships without overpowering them (but I may be wrong) as you still have the same slot limits.
What does everyone else think?
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Leodis Enteprises Corporation
Small skilled UK based corp, apply if you think you have what it takes. |
Iridina
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Posted - 2003.08.28 15:10:00 -
[125]
Quote:
It would be nice to allow people to move items up slots e.g. put a low slot item in a medium slot, or even a high slot if they want to.
This would increase the flexibility of the ships without overpowering them (but I may be wrong) as you still have the same slot limits.
What does everyone else think?
Idea is interesting, and somehow intuitive, as the only current explanation for highslots is that they take up more power, and as such more power should be able to supply power to low-power requiring elements as well. In order to rationalize the inability to install lowslot items to upper ones could be that lowslot items would require some fine-control mechanisms, stable environment, shielding, etc, things which hislot items wouldn't. hislots = high-power low-cpu, and vice versa-kinda thing.
(except that hislot items tend to take lots of cpu too, and why would armor shield resistance boosters require any finesse?)
Intuivity aside, it would **** up current balance royally :)
Firstly you'd need to nerf/change most lowslots items, as we'd end up seeing configurations like scorpion with 14dmgboosters and 4 guns. 14dmgboosters means (1.096/0.895)^14 = 17x as much damage over time. Fun. Or how about optimal range bonus of 1.23^14 = 18x? :P
Secondly there's the 'problem' in the model of bonuses being multiplicative, not additive. In some cases it works intuitively, like damageresistances and the like, but in some cases not, like in case of afterburners.. I just love how installing a second lif booster is giving me 30% more power than the first one :)
--Irid |
Jerrico Delen
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Posted - 2003.08.28 15:23:00 -
[126]
Good point Iridina,
I forgot about the way some things multiply together. It would be a bit sick and wrong.
========================================
Leodis Enteprises Corporation
Small skilled UK based corp, apply if you think you have what it takes. |
FlareZFX
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Posted - 2003.08.28 15:40:00 -
[127]
Are these changes implemented on the Chaos server now, or are they on Tranquility too already?
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Iridina
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Posted - 2003.08.28 17:00:00 -
[128]
FlareZFX, the features TomB tells of are tested in chaos, no changes to tranquility yet.
I made a lengthy post about the multipliers as a new thread
Some maths, logarithms ahead there, but they dont bite :)
--Irid |
Solas
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Posted - 2003.08.28 17:16:00 -
[129]
Quote:
Edited by: NTRabbit on 27/08/2003 15:34:45
Quote:
I see 2 problems with Battleships.
1. Shield hardeners are a requirement for pvp. EM at absolute least but most always thermal & EM + Shield booster. Without those 3 things you have lost before the battle starts.
Not necessarily... certainly the amarr, and to a lesser extent the gallente battleships have numerous low slots which can be used for energised armour plating - i witnessed a battle between an artillery armed Scorpion (hardeners) and a rail gun armed Megathron (energised armour). The battle lasted for a significant amount of time, but in the end the Megathron died just as it was chipping into the socrpions armour. This was only because the scorpion had shield boosters, but the Megathron had not fitted an armour repairer.
Amarr ships are supposed to be armour reliant, not shield reliant, its why they beat the pants off Caldari and Minmatar ships when it comes to Hull and Armour HP.
Fitting shield items to amarr ships is just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
EDIT: The battle was on chaos a few days ago
I completely agree. A lot of people want to be able have their cake and eat it too. I personally believe shield hardeners are overestimated. There are defensive devices for low slots that can harden armor to the same degree.
Each of these devises gives 15% to every resist. You can also get plating that can add up to 1800 armor hp per module. Now you have hardeners that donÆt take any cap and can keep those weapons on full bore because your cap is not being sucked down by hardeners. Toss a nice armor repair and hull repairer and wala!
You will sacrifice damage for these defenses but it should compensate you nicely. If I would not know better this is how the devs specifically designed Aamar ships to be equipped. The only problem is those nice energized 15% to all plating modules are a bit expensive. Think outside of the box. This game seems to have tactical trade offs out the gazu.
Settings up your Aamar like this wont make you all-powerful though. There are numerous tactics and counter tactics. Like there should be. Aamar, is what I believe to be the equivalent of a tank in other MMOGÆs. Caldari are the casters, Miminatar are the damage dealers, and GallenteÆs are like a mage.
If you look at the numbers and equipment, then capitalized on each races strengths they all look feasible. A little tweak here or there and you have your balance.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.28 21:56:00 -
[130]
I'm still the opinion that a ship will SH will beat *all other* setups without SH - exept they use target jamming.
Contact me and I'll prove it to you on chaos (or you'll prove your point to me 
free speech not allowed here |
Shayden
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Posted - 2003.08.29 01:21:00 -
[131]
Hey, i would just like to ask why only the Caldari Battleships have same contrast in turrets?
Dom 6 - Mega 7
Amar 7 - Apoc 8
Typh 4 - Temp 6
and Scorp and Raven both 4 ?
I still dont see the reason for why i should buy a raven over a scorp 
Would it hurt the balance too much if raven got 5 ? Well would it? 
my 50 cent
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.08.29 01:35:00 -
[132]
Shay, the Raven gets 2 additional high slots, it's just that you can only fit missles there.
Once missles are fixed, the Raven will be quite feared with it's impressive 6 med slots and 5 low.
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Shayden
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Posted - 2003.08.29 02:11:00 -
[133]
Okay, but i just dont see 2 extra missiles slots as a real difference. For its price its still not enough i'd say.
Perhaps when missiles will be fixed our point of view will be changed too, but now, Raven is too underpowered imo, you gotta agree with me on that.
Regards
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Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.29 03:09:00 -
[134]
shayden go check chaos, missiles now turn a properly equipped raven into a flying nightmare. :)
6x wrath torpedo, 2x 425mm railgun, hardeners, jammers, and sensor boosters... put some sensor boosting equipment on low slots to counter jamming, and voila- instant damage machine.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Rising Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.29 11:31:00 -
[135]
Quote:
TomB, I got zero understanding on your approach.
Tier 2 battleships are right now (on Tranquility) not worth buying. The tier 1's can all perform just as well as the tier 2's (if not better in some cases) at a very reduced price. These changes are very much needed and anyone who is flying a battleship of any kind will readily agree. How's that for understanding?
--
"If they're shooting at you, you know you must be doing something right." |
Kimi
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Posted - 2003.08.29 12:39:00 -
[136]
"check chaos, missiles now turn a properly equipped raven into a flying nightmare...."
Hmm
Not unless there have been some drastic changes in the last patch.
The only thing I saw was that missiles were faster. Still too expensive, still too little damage, still take up too much space.
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Valeria
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Posted - 2003.08.29 14:00:00 -
[137]
Quote:
shayden go check chaos, missiles now turn a properly equipped raven into a flying nightmare. :)
Yes, on Chaos where everything is free, they can be fairly effective. But the thing is, it will take about 3+ million in Torpedos to take another Bship down. And that my friend, is insane.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.29 15:46:00 -
[138]
well tom said he was redoing damage stats and costs.. who knows, torpedos may end up with 600-700 damage and only cost 8,000 isk to make.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Kimi
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Posted - 2003.08.29 17:43:00 -
[139]
For torpedoes to be worth what they cost and the sheer sloth of them, they would have to do more like 2500 to 4000 damage - not 600.
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.29 20:39:00 -
[140]
Quote:
For torpedoes to be worth what they cost and the sheer sloth of them, they would have to do more like 2500 to 4000 damage - not 600.
Ok so lets see, get a caracel with 5 torps and 1 shot a battle ship.... something says that, that amount of dmg is absurd, 600-700 a pop firing from 4 launchers would be devistating! And with like a 20 second recharge... raven will be one of the most feared ships out there.....
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.08.29 20:39:00 -
[141]
Quote:
For torpedoes to be worth what they cost and the sheer sloth of them, they would have to do more like 2500 to 4000 damage - not 600.
Ok so lets see, get a caracel with 5 torps and 1 shot a battle ship.... something says that, that amount of dmg is absurd, 600-700 a pop firing from 4 launchers would be devistating! And with like a 20 second recharge... raven will be one of the most feared ships out there.....
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.08.29 21:49:00 -
[142]
Keep calm, she wasn't really suggesting those damages, she was just stating the torps cost too much for their damage.
free speech not allowed here |
Lurk
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Posted - 2003.08.29 22:17:00 -
[143]
And remember ... a launched torpedo is not yet a hit. You can dodge torpedos or shoot em ...
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Stryker
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Posted - 2003.08.29 22:48:00 -
[144]
hmmm, 2500 dmg. i like that idea :-) |
Snowman
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Posted - 2003.08.29 23:17:00 -
[145]
Quote:
And remember ... a launched torpedo is not yet a hit. You can dodge torpedos or shoot em ...
Dunno if your guns would be able to hit an oncoming torpedo let alone do enough damage to it. Unless I'm wrong about the missle hitpoints (taken from tti-nexus) you would not be able to destroy oncoming cruise missles (150hp) unless you had 2 medium smartbombs (80 dmg x 2) or 1 large smartbomb (160 dmg), torps (170hp) on the other hand would be impossible to destroy unless you had some combination of a large smartbomb and medium/small smartbombs.
People complain about how they cannot hit frigates with large/medium weapons, imagine trying to nail an object flying at you going 2km/sec, maybe you might get lucky with a small weapon but I doubt you'd be able to deal enough damage to stop it.
As for the smartbomb/defender missle defences, the rof on smartbombs isn't high enough to be able to fire twice in the time that the missle enters its range and then hits the ship so you need at least 2, so this basically leaves defenders as the best way to destroy oncoming missles as they have their own explosion radius and they can attack missles before they are too close to the ship. Problem is that defenders at the moment (haven't tested recently) are very unreliable compared to their smartbomb alternative.
So which everyone want missles to become better we should also make sure the countermeasures are at least capable of some degree of efficiency.
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Data Loss
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Posted - 2003.08.29 23:22:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Data Loss on 29/08/2003 23:27:57
did you know you can shoot a missle at a missle?(learned this today on chaos test server thanks to those handy BH people) just use a heavy missle on a torp coming at you, maybe even a few light missles if your ROF is good enough. usually is somoene shoots a missle at you its from far away more than far enough for you to target the missle and shoot your own
damage for missles is just great, and the way they make most ships turn and stop and move them is even better. missles have gotten a lot better on chaos and they will be killers when on live server. if they make missles better, be afraid , be very afraid
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Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.08.29 23:38:00 -
[147]
Edited by: Jarjar on 29/08/2003 23:39:00
Quote:
For torpedoes to be worth what they cost and the sheer sloth of them, they would have to do more like 2500 to 4000 damage - not 600.
Edit: Yes, I did read the post properly, so I know that you're not really suggesting it.
2500? Lol. Imagine the fights...
Raven vs <insert bship>, if not jammed
Raven : Fires 6 EM torps, opponent had EM hardeners, so they hit for 5*750 dmg - 3750 damage
Raven: Replaces missiles with kinetic + explosive
Missile 1/2 kills the shields, rest hits armor+hull for 4*2000 damage. Opponent dies, while raven still has shield left.
Total fight time: 35 seconds.
Now, imagine 5000 damage.
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Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.30 00:35:00 -
[148]
i would say torpedos would be comfortable at 600 damage. any more and they can turn a caracal into a suicide boat (just deck it with torpedos and send it to its death, to take out a battleship)
either way, a raven with 6x siege launchers wielding bane torpedos is very evil indeed. factor in the 5% bonus to velocity per level on a torpedo and they can do 2500m/s.
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
Booky
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Posted - 2003.08.30 03:35:00 -
[149]
I just want to ask one question. Am I imagining that in beta my Raven had 6 Turrent slots and 4 Missle slots? So If I remember right, they got switched around>? I mean I would love to have 6 Turrents and 2 Launchers on a Raven, providing they up the Power Grid to 20000 like it used to be.
Ofcourse I could be just dreaming about my times in beta and be totally wrong.
So what was the turrent set up like in beta? I was almost sure I had 6 425mm rails on it then.
Spelling corrections welcome, but don't expect me to edit my post. |
Digital Sin
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Posted - 2003.08.30 04:36:00 -
[150]
im happy with my current gunboat that will sport 8x 425mm railgun. :)
i was thinking about putting a set of magnetic vortex stabilizers on it as well....
"To be content,to be comfortable, is to be complacent. No one learns anything from pleasure..pain on the other hand is a most efficient instructor" |
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