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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |

Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
14
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Posted - 2011.10.31 18:58:00 -
[271] - Quote
@CCP Tallest: Most of the time, the act of balancing is either too strong and creates a new FOTM (see projectiles buff), or too small and players are unhappy (your current proposal on hybrids).
It think the best way to approach the hybrid problem is to ask the players what they feel is needed. There are a lot of threads where smart people have investigated the problem and proposed solutions.
Make a best-of of these solutions, and let us, players using hybrids, vote on which is best.
Then maybe you'll not have balance (which is IMHO impossible to obtain), but at least you'll have happy players ! |

Harotak
Malicious Destruction War Against the Manifest
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 18:59:00 -
[272] - Quote
Good changes, but I would like for blasters to get the same 10% damage buff that rails are getting. Also, its the medium hybrids that suffer the most IMO, so possibly increase their damage buff to 15%? |

Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:02:00 -
[273] - Quote
Creat Posudol wrote:Jeffrey Powel wrote:carmelos53 wrote: The proteus in particular is difficult to fit so once these changes hit maybe take another look at mega hulls, bc hulls, t3 and assault ships??
Proteus difficult to fit? lol? Yea I usually have a noticeable amount of PG (not to mention CPU) left and always feel dirty or like I've done something wrong... who knows, maybe I have?
You care to link your fit?
I'm already waiting for a lol fit or civilian blasters on it. Sry but you're not even close to ever convice me of that. |

Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:03:00 -
[274] - Quote
Sam Bowein wrote: vote on which is best.
Let us hope it does not ever come to that. lol |

Razor Blue
Hyvat Pahat ja Eric The Polaris Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:09:00 -
[275] - Quote
Harotak wrote:Good changes, but I would like for blasters to get the same 10% damage buff that rails are getting. Also, its the medium hybrids that suffer the most IMO, so possibly increase their damage buff to 15%?
Yeah, maybe the boost should be vice versa. Blasters get moar damage and Rails more tracking. Then add bit selection to the ammo damage types and voila |

Yvan Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
22
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:13:00 -
[276] - Quote
+10 to speed ? seriously? I don't see that making a big difference, and the +10% damage i still dont see as being enough to bring gallante into the fleets of today....
CCP Tallest, Hybrids are supposed to be the king of all dps there supposed to be monsters, thats why they have multiple negatives....
Negative: Forced into Therm/Kin damage type only Negative: Capacitor usage Negative: Ammo required to fill cargo Negative: 10 second reloads to swap ammo types...
Positive: High DPS
As you can see the HighDPS just doesn't counter the Negatives... Tracking is a huge issue for blasters, but even so with the speed buff ships like the brutix will still DIAF before they get in range of the target, and be able to hold them in place...
The ships either need major speed buffs, more ships with web bonuses, or an ehp buff that will let the little bastards survive enough to get in close to start dealing damage!
TALLEST: There talking about changes to things, how about taking away the stacking penalty from web drones, how about that then suddenly gallante blaster boats can refit with web drones to actually pin there enemy down
Don't get me wrong i'm estatic to see you guys working on hybrids, i just dont think you realize just how badoff gallante ships and weapons currently are in fleet fights (Besides the dominix which has other... graphical fugliness problems) ... |

Yvan Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
22
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:16:00 -
[277] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Nimrod Nemesis wrote:I think the better question is: Will those caldari hybid ship pilots be any more or less a waste of space after replacing their AC's with Blasters or Rails. The answer is quite obivously, "no." Good point, that might actually be the better question. Without considering drones or missiles (advantage Rupture if included): Moa (after buff) 200mm rails (three mfs), spike: 73km+13km = 86km, 157 dps, 422 alpha Rupture 650mm Arties (two tracking enhancers, two gyros), tremor, 57km + 36 km = 93 km, 150 dps, 838 alpha Rupture 650mm Arties (one tracking enhancer, three gyros), tremor, 50km + 28 km = 78 km, 168 dps, 886 alpha As far as I can tell, the results are similar with other ammo types. What compelling reason is there to fly a Moa over a Rupture? What is its niche? Shouldn't Moa dps be significantly higher at the same long ranges as a Rupture, since the Rupture alpha is 2 times as great? Rupture still has same or better dps.
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Give rails ROF not damage, make it so that Railguns are the Autocannons of long range... and blasters are the artillery of in your face FU damage (But even more than artillery since artillery get to choose there damage type and use no cap) |

Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
68
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:25:00 -
[278] - Quote
Quote:Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus
Hail (all sizes): Removed falloff penalty
Speaking as a Minmatar, I hereby declare my love for CCP Tallest. 
Very nice to see CCP identifying an related issue and taking the time to address it there and then. Good stuff. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |

thoth rothschild
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:26:00 -
[279] - Quote
The major problem for gallente gun vessels (not drone boats) is the combination of armor tank and short range guns. Not beeing able to reach 30km , which is warp disruptor kiting range, because of lacking low slots and slowest ship layout is devastating.
it should be minmatar using hybrid and gallente using projectiles.
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:27:00 -
[280] - Quote
Jeffrey Powel wrote:And after that hybrid will be overpowered. Ok for a boost, but don't joke. BTW i like the concept to have 2 close range ammo whith different kin/therm %, very nice idea.
not really blaster are looking at an 8% increase to dps... but a 50% increase to alpha...
though rails are getting a 45% increase to dps (which sounds like a lot) but if ccp does not fix probs then rails will need that means rails need that much more damage... |
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Jane Idoka
LoneStar Industries Comatose Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:29:00 -
[281] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Medium and small blasters became a complete gamble when webbers where nerfed and scrams got boosted. That change was ment to be a boost to AF. That never played out. You acknowledge that there is a problem with webbers in conjunction with blasters but fail to understand the underlying issue. The combined effect of having a rather useless webber and at the same time getting your MWD shut off was the killer. A brutix can lose 75% of it's damage because a rifter is switching it's MWD off.
For Dreads adding the mass boost to siege modules made blasters a complete nono. If you get bumped at jump in you can't drop in siege for minutes. You might even have to relocate via warp out and back in to get into any reasonable range. If there are hostiles around that is simply not an option.
Fiddling around with fitting requirements or tracking wont change anything. The big gamble that are medium and small blasters is still there and I wont take it. Your unwillingness to take a change to the game back that didn't play out as expected is not going to make anything better.
Before we got T2 ships the low kin/therm resi on pretty much any PvP fit ship made up for the lower damage mod on rails. Increasing the base damage wont change that. Any T2 ship got either increased kin or therm resi. With combat prolongment and the RR boost volley damage got even more important in PvP then it used to be. A 10% dps increase wont change that.
I can't see how the proposed changes will improve anything in PvP.
If you really want to change something you need to let rails play in their own league. I would propose to turn rails upside down. Let the shortest rails do the most damage and then give those short rails a hefty damage boost. If you keep trying to have a difference between rails and beams/arties without making them different you will just keep shifting inferiority around.
In my eyes the root of all evil started at the very beginning of EVE when 4 races got introduced that where ment to fill the same role without being redundant. Nobody would argue about the inferiority of Apocs compared to Hulks because those different factions ships are meant to fulfill a different role. If you don't give up on the concept of having the same role for different ships or weapon systems you will just keep shifting FotMs around.
This has been the most insightful post i have read so far and one that i had a feeling for but wasn't quite able to put my finger on until now. One thing that really bugs me about the game and i have been with it for quite a few years now is seeming crapshoot of ship roles for each race, they are all over the place. I think a ground up rethinking of races and ship roles should be really taken for long term health of EVE. As i see it these issue will crop up constantly untill each race is defined by its ships: caldari will excell at EW, minmatar at ductaping... err damage, amarr tanking and gallente at whatever they're supposded to be good at (as long time gallente pilot i'm still not sure what) |

Faelyn L'Darcassan
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:31:00 -
[282] - Quote
I agree with the posts stressing the need for a specific role for hybrids. Now what was that supposed to be again?
Looking at hybrids in RL, they have primarily one damage type - kinetic and due to their nature are somewhat simpler by design than e.g. traditional projective weapons (i.e. fewer parts, not necessarily easier to build though). Since they can use smaller caliber ammo for the same damage than projectiles, they would likely have (much) better tracking at the cost of increased power needs. Rails have long effective range and thus accuracy and damage retention, while blasters have short range but cause huge damage. Thus a possible positioning could be the GÇÿreversalGÇÖ of autocannons & artys (rails - higher ROF, long range, low alpha vs. blasters - lower ROF, high alpha, short range):
Blasters GÇô the ultimate close range weapon of doom: - comparable if not better tracking than autocannons (should comfortably hit ships half class smaller) - low optimal and falloff (fire field contained particle charges), but definitely higher optimal than now - very high volley damage (high energy and mass = massive damage) - comparably high DPS (compensates for short range, i.e. time spent on getting into range) - lower ROF than autocannons and lasers due to need of energizing the charges - relatively high cap use Bottom line: if you get into blaster range, you should wish youGÇÖd never be born in the first place.
Rails GÇô the ultimate sniperGÇÖs choice: - have decent tracking, e.g. half-way between lasers and projectiles - have very high optimal, reasonable falloff (maybe reverse optimal/falloff from artys?) - less volley damage than both projectiles and lasers - comparable DPS at a given range - decent ROF, better than lasers and much better than artillery - medium cap use Bottom line: reliable and consistent long-range power projection & damage retention
To differentiate ammo types, hybrids should have better damage retention over their effective range compared to both projectiles and lasers (missiles have perfect damage retention). They should stick with THERMAL/KINETIC damage and instead of making damage variable, the different charges might have different EWAR effects on targets for a short period of time (think different warheads). E.g., antimatter increasing armor/structure damage, plutonium dissipating capacitor, lead slowing ships down, thorium disrupting sensors, iridium increasing shield damage.
Does this fix hybrids? Maybe yes and maybe not, since one may argue that this was their purpose all along. I believe that any changes to hybrids will necessitate changes to ship stats to make them effective.
Personally I want to see blaster boats viciously fry anything they get on top off and snipers hurt and confuse enemies at long range. The same blaster boats however should be somewhat more resilient such as to have a chance to get there but being armor tanked, should be less agile. Designated blaster boats might get AB/MWD bonuses to get on top faster GÇô think a surprise gank attack, but should again be more sluggish once there, i.e. not outmaneuver minnie ships. These might, if clever enough try to get away using their superior speed. Alternatively, some Gallente ships might get web range bonuses to pin those kiting Minnie ships down and leave them the choice of warping out, or biting the dust if they tally for too long.
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gfldex
22
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:32:00 -
[283] - Quote
Jane Idoka wrote:gfldex wrote: #stuff about pew pew# This has been the most insightful post i have read so far and one that i had a feeling for but wasn't quite able to put my finger on until now.
I demand likes! :->
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Darnok Iksnibiks
Bifrost Investment Group
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:37:00 -
[284] - Quote
Wellcome
I generally like the first iteration of the changes.
Only question i would like to ask is why Hyperion gets only 5 m/s speed boost? It always was the slowest to align Gallente battle ship but the fastest one. now Megathron is as fast as hype while having better agility and tracking bonus. In my opinion Hyperion lost one of its few advantages over mega...
With regards Darnok Iksnibiks |

Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:38:00 -
[285] - Quote
If blasters are so crappy then how about give every gallente ship a web bonus instead of just the new battlecruiser? |

Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:40:00 -
[286] - Quote
Also X-L Blasters really do need the 20% tracking tbh!! |

Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
86
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:42:00 -
[287] - Quote
Ratnose Banker wrote:If blasters are so crappy then how about give every gallente ship a web bonus instead of just the new battlecruiser?
Because even with 5% strgh bonus per level you'll see all cry birdies on Talos thread come up with their main and numberous alts say tons of crap stuff they don't even know about.
You know, the kind of idiot that still thinks in blaster/web range they should keep all the advantages, because someone need to be the last at everything, and in their mind is gallente, so they don't need buffs because somehow they may loose some ships against gallente ... |

Willl Adama
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
36
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:43:00 -
[288] - Quote
The listed changes look fine imo, I don't rly think blasters are so much worse off than the rest tbh. I think most people are underestimating the fitting buff which will give blasters more range/dps generally. There might be a few ships that could still use a slight PG boost though, like the proteus. Latest Video:-á-á Kill Will: Volume 4 |

Kumq uat
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
28
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:46:00 -
[289] - Quote
Still needs more DPS. Too close to AC's in DPS without any of the advantages. |

Metellus Titurius
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:50:00 -
[290] - Quote
My thoughts summed up:
-Rails need a larger bump in damage, otherwise players still have no reason to use them over artillery -Don't decrease the powergrid for rails as much because the point of sniping is to sacrifice a TON of tank for dps at range -Change the T2 ammo for rails so that they offer unique bonuses instead of generic trading of range for dps/dps for range -Assault cruisers like the Eagle and Demios still have no place in a fleet, whether it be null sec or low sec warfare.
Other than me griping about rails still being terrible, the blaster side of the hybrids looks GREAT! |
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Metellus Titurius
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:51:00 -
[291] - Quote
Kumq uat wrote:Still needs more DPS. Too close to AC's in DPS without any of the advantages.
More of my point that there is no reason to use hybrids over AC's, Arty, or Lasers. You'll just be wasting your time in another patch that doesn't change anything. |

TaterRoller
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 19:54:00 -
[292] - Quote
Good start to changes, but not enough. Range is still awful, and the speed boost just isnt enough, I sure hope this list is just tentative. |

Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
88
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Posted - 2011.10.31 19:56:00 -
[293] - Quote
xo3e wrote:"ok. lets boost both close and long range Projectiles, and also Lasers and say that this is Hybrid wepons boost actually" (c) CCP
i dont want to be politically incorrect, but... WTF IS THIS? WHAT IS THE POINT IN BOOSTING TRACKING WHEN BLASTER BOATS STILL CANT GET CLOSE ENOUGH?
this "boost" looks like bad excuse, and blaster boats will still only be able to stand against n00bs in hands of a skilled pilots. and i dont think that this is looks like good balance.
inb4 "whine more n00b... wait.. WHAT?"
I have this same question...
Could you please explain your hesitancy to change ship hybrid bonuses?
(I'm also a bit suprised, I know Caldari are more ranged hybrids, but I didn't realize Caldari had so few blaster boats? I didn't see Caldari AF mentioned at all .. and rails on a harpy are well ... hmmmmmm: Subject to individual opinion)
Please explain the hesitancy to change ship related states to better facilitate Hybrid rebalance? |

Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:05:00 -
[294] - Quote
Got through about 1/2 of the posts here, and I think many of you need to get on EFT and try some new loadouts, using the new stats, before you rant and rave about the proposed rebalancing.
The real problem with Gallente ships has been the combined high PG reqs of both hybrid guns and armor plates, which made balancing gank vs tank difficult. In addition, after the previous across-the-board speed rebalancing, Gallente ships were running a bit too slow, due to the speed/agility penalty from armor plates and armor rigs.
The proposed reduction in PG reqs for hybrid guns means that many of the Gallente blaster ships will be able to fit a full rack of higher grade guns, while maintaining the same amount of tank - ie. instead of electron blasters, you can now fit ion blasters. This is equivalent to giving a massive damage buff to both blasters and railguns. For example, upgrading from T2 medium electron blasters to T2 medium ion blasters, is a 60% boost in damage. Railguns get an additional 10% damage buff, on top of the ability fo upgrade to higher grade guns - from the old T2 350mm rails to the new T2 425mm rails, we're talking about a 50% boost in damage. So, what are you complaining about?
However, the PG reduction is even better than a simple damage buff. Why? Because you can also opt to keep the same gank, and use the extra PG to upgrade your tank instead.
For example, the PG req for an 400mm plate is 30, whereas the PG req for an 800mm plate is 200. In many cases, due to the high PG of the hybrid guns, Gallente ships have been a bit short on PG for the 800mm plate and thus forced to use the 400mm plate. Now, with the lower PG of the guns, you will be able to upgrade many ships to the 800mm plate, which has 100% more armor HP than the 400mm plate. So, armor tanking gets a bit of love out of this hybrid rebalance, too.
But, we don't stop here. Currently, if you want a beefer armor tank, you might opt to use two (2) 400mm plates, or one (1) 800mm plate + RC/PDS module or ACR rig (to boost the PG). The reduction of the gun PG reqs means that you will be able to fit the single 800mm plate, without a PG upgrade, to get the identical tank. This effectively frees up either a low slot or a rig slot - which can be used for an additional damage mod/rig, a tanking mod/rig, or even a speed mod/rig. Yeah, baby!
Next, the buff to Gallente ship max velocity/agility helps to take the edge off of the armor plate penalty. For example, the Incursus (new speed 344 m/s) is now only a hair slower than the Rifter (353 m/s), and likely more agile. With faster tracking blasters, the upgraded Incursus just might be the new FOTM for solo PvP frigs... hmm.
And, finally, the substantial reduction in cap use of the hybrid guns reduces the need for cap rechargers, cap boosters, nosferatus, and CCC rigs. Again, we''re talking about freeing up mod/rig slots which can be used to improve gank, tank, or speed.
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carmelos53
OMG totally awesome corp of one Burning Spear.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:07:00 -
[295] - Quote
Raw damage still doesn't justify switching to gallente blaster boats for close engagements when you can still fly mini with ac and have nearly the same damage but hit at much greater range....
Tracking still needs a bigger buff... I'm sorry but a shield tanked mini has compatible tracking with 2-3 tracking enchancers and gallente doesn't (in general) have enough kids to compensate.....
The proteus still needs to be addressed. Of is still way to low to make it as useful as the other t3s in pvp especially when the legion (after these changes) will be able to hit at 14km op and only be doing 57 less dps.....
If ccp is worried about making gallente overpowered I can undersand.... But keep in mind unless you warp at 0. And keep the target at 0 there is no diversity with blaster boats so they NEED TO BE AMAZING AT 0km and frankly this just isn't enough...
^edit to the poster above me^ you are talking about a very niche market when it comes to fitting electrons instead of ions etc.... I think you need to compare a few ships in eft my friend. The rest of your post is very well thought out and I applaud you for it.
And you stated armor tanking blaster boats now get to drop their cap fittings for extra tank??? I don't know a sigle pilot who uses ccc rigs for pvp.... Yes it will help in missions... But I don't think anybody plays missions unless they have to so question mark to you sir.
Reducing the was needed just to help the fittings on most blaster platforms... It's not a big OMG ehp buff unless you drop some resists for another plate ....
No one uses cap rechargers or power relays in pvp. In some rare cases people might... |

Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:11:00 -
[296] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Got through about 1/2 of the posts here, and I think many of you need to get on EFT and try some new loadouts, using the new stats, before you rant and rave about the proposed rebalancing.
Spoken like someone who's got no experience flying a hybrid platform. |

Dare Devel
Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:17:00 -
[297] - Quote
Dear CCP Tallest... The community has echoed their sentiments towards your proposed changes in various ways. Following are mine...
*) Reduce CPU usage: fixed number change is pure wrong. It should have %age reduction - 15% *) Reduce Powergrid Usage: -12% . This is not enough. I think -30% will give the ability to fit a good tank with speed mods and Cap booster. *) Reduced Capacitor usage: All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use - Thanks very much this was much needed. *) Tracking Speed Increase: All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed - A 40% buff is really necessary. *) Max Velocity +10 - waste of buff. Really not worth anything *) Inertia Modifier -5% - waste of buff. Really not worth anything *) Tech II Ammo: You said "Javelin is quite obviously underpowered". Then you buff it by removing the cap penalty. Is that why it was underpowered? I am not mentioning the tracking speed penalty removal because it is applied to all ammo types.
The whole community has been providing tons of suggestion for years now. It is very sad to see you come out with this solution. You have completely missed out on... 1) Correcting the base optimal and falloff of blasters. 2) Correcting base damage modifiers on hybrid guns (Rails and Blasters). 3) Correcting the stacking penalty of T2 short range ammo.
If you intend to go forward with your proposed changes please re-imburse me the Skill Points that I have for hybrid guns so that I can pick another (projectile or laser). I will be happy with that.
Many Thanks and Best Regards Dare
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Phoenix Torp
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:20:00 -
[298] - Quote
xo3e wrote:" i dont want to be politically incorrect, but... WTF IS THIS? WHAT IS THE POINT IN BOOSTING TRACKING WHEN BLASTER BOATS STILL CANT GET CLOSE ENOUGH?
This is the ******* point, boys. I'm still thinking in a shield active tanking Megathron, favored now than they will lower the capacitor use... |

ATTAKowl
Sigillum Militum Xpisti Fatal Ascension
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:23:00 -
[299] - Quote
I want to see the Rokh with a better drone bay. It is a battleship and should perform like one. |

McBrideCZ
Sardinky ve Vesmiru
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.31 20:23:00 -
[300] - Quote
Railguns really deserves more than 10% damage buff. Other changes sounds pretty sweet!
When we are talking about weapon balance, Tachyon Lasers need some balance too. Compared to Megabeam laser, they offer only tiny damage boost but with huge PG stress.
8x Megabeam II vs. 8x Tachyon II on abaddon with 3xHeat sink II, All level 5 skill and Multifreq. L crystals:
Tachyons will get you 56 more DPS, 3+5 better optimal + falloff and much higher alpha at the cost of 3600 more PG usage and 30 more CPU usage with lower tracking
Compared to insange PG/CPU/Cap usage, the advantage of Tachs vs. Megabeams is very small.
Tachs should use some damage boost or decrease of CPU/PG.
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