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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending Gentlemen's Interstellar Nightclub
10
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:23:00 -
[301] - Quote
@Tallest/Ballancers: Not quite certain how often this was brougth up in this thread already, btu could we also lower the size of hybrid ammo, while we're at it? |
Al'ha
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:23:00 -
[302] - Quote
Max Velocity +10? Funny joke. Another one Matar boost. Again. Why CCP do not like Gallente?.. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
10
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:25:00 -
[303] - Quote
Hail w/o falloff penalty.
TY TY TY TY TY TY |
ArmyOfMe
TEDDYBEARS. Excuses.
41
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:26:00 -
[304] - Quote
Speed and agility on blasterships needs to be improved even more tbh. The boats are still sluggish as hell, and cant get close to other ships fast enough. Remember that those damn buffer tanks, or plates/armor rigs makes the gallente blasterboats slower. That wouldnt be such a problem if it wasnt for the fact that we have the worst optimal and falloff range of all race's.
The deimos is one of the ships that need a special look at, since it is atm a useless ship.
CCP, for the love of god boost the deimos..... |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
80
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:27:00 -
[305] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Got through about 1/2 of the posts here, and I think many of you need to get on EFT and try some new loadouts, using the new stats, before you rant and rave about the proposed rebalancing.
Spoken like someone who's got no experience flying a hybrid platform.
yeah i know eh the thing with pre boosted blasters is on eft they looked awesome... but we need more than just on paper awesome...we need in game awesome and the boost from CCP Tallest will just make them look better on paper but not in practice
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PinkKnife
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
5
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:27:00 -
[306] - Quote
Quote:Before we start looking at armor tanking issues or individual ships, Hybrid weapons as a whole need to be boosted up to a level where using them becomes desirable.
Highlighted for those who I think glossed over this. However it seems they aren't done with Gallente/Hybrids just yet. |
Iohet Nolafew
Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD.
9
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:28:00 -
[307] - Quote
Metellus Titurius wrote:My thoughts summed up:
-Rails need a larger bump in damage, otherwise players still have no reason to use them over artillery -Don't decrease the powergrid for rails as much because the point of sniping is to sacrifice a TON of tank for dps at range -Change the T2 ammo for rails so that they offer unique bonuses instead of generic trading of range for dps/dps for range -Assault cruisers like the Eagle and Demios still have no place in a fleet, whether it be null sec or low sec warfare.
Other than me griping about rails still being terrible, the blaster side of the hybrids looks GREAT!
Only makes sense if sniping did overwhelming DPS, which it doesn't. Maybe be more applicable if you weren't limited on max targeting range, but that is not the case.
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:[quote=xo3e] (I'm also a bit suprised, I know Caldari are more ranged hybrids, but I didn't realize Caldari had so few blaster boats? I didn't see Caldari AF mentioned at all .. and rails on a harpy are well ... hmmmmmm: Subject to individual opinion)
Probably because when you tank a Caldari ship you explode its sig. They're more rail oriented because they need to stay out of optimal as much as possible. Doesn't help that the ships already have higher sigs than average even without shield mods.
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Jade Greenfire
KISIN Enterprises
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:30:00 -
[308] - Quote
Question for you CCP Tallest:
I realise this is for ships, but I am curious as to what changes you plan for hybrid POS guns/batteries to make them effective & attractive alternate to the standard projectile & lazers batteries? Seems they need some rebalancing love too.
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Jane Idoka
LoneStar Industries Comatose Alliance
4
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:31:00 -
[309] - Quote
Celebris Nexterra wrote:Hmmm, I am now motivated to make a stupidly simple analogy for what you're saying about blasters vs all other weapon types.
You give a person a shotgun (Gallente ship with blasters), you give the opponent an assault rifle (Minmatar ship with AC's). You place these two people in an open field at 50m (any place in space where the ships do not land on top of each other). The person with the shotgun is actually Aretha Franklin, while the person with the AR is Usain Bolt. Usain is able to run at full speed while shooting his gun and never missing, while Aretha "runs" while shooting and never hitting. Sure, it'll take a few hits before she goes down, but she has absolutely no chance to ever hit her target. NOW BOOST HER SPEED BY 10%!!!!
And you tell me this is fair?
+1 for giving Aretha Franklin a shotgun... |
PhantomTrojan
Shadows of Fornax E C L I P S E
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:37:00 -
[310] - Quote
This will make most of the hybrid weapon close somehow to balanced, but still almost every gallente "ship" need some kind of buff because this is nowhere near enough to make the Diemost viable or even the brutix, atarte and eos. I also think that the blaster need a decent damage buff of 5-10%, to compensate for the half of ur ehp lost approaching to the target if you can catch up... |
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ArmyOfMe
TEDDYBEARS. Excuses.
41
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:38:00 -
[311] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Quote:Before we start looking at armor tanking issues or individual ships, Hybrid weapons as a whole need to be boosted up to a level where using them becomes desirable. Highlighted for those who I think glossed over this. However it seems they aren't done with Gallente/Hybrids just yet. Lets not forget how long it took them to look at hybrids in the first place
I guess we'll see them looking at blasterboats around, oh i dont know 2015? (and thats if we're lucky)
CCP, for the love of god boost the deimos..... |
thoth rothschild
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:39:00 -
[312] - Quote
Celebris Nexterra wrote:Hmmm, I am now motivated to make a stupidly simple analogy for what you're saying about blasters vs all other weapon types.
You give a person a shotgun (Gallente ship with blasters), you give the opponent an assault rifle (Minmatar ship with AC's). You place these two people in an open field at 50m (any place in space where the ships do not land on top of each other). The person with the shotgun is actually Aretha Franklin, while the person with the AR is Usain Bolt. Usain is able to run at full speed while shooting his gun and never missing, while Aretha "runs" while shooting and never hitting. Sure, it'll take a few hits before she goes down, but she has absolutely no chance to ever hit her target. NOW BOOST HER SPEED BY 10%!!!!
And you tell me this is fair?
this is awesome !!!! +1 from me
Could not have sayd it more clear and funny :) You Sir are my hero <3
per request : This Post can be found on Page 11 :> |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
173
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:39:00 -
[313] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Sizeof Void wrote:Got through about 1/2 of the posts here, and I think many of you need to get on EFT and try some new loadouts, using the new stats, before you rant and rave about the proposed rebalancing.
Spoken like someone who's got no experience flying a hybrid platform. yeah i know eh the thing with pre boosted blasters is on eft they looked awesome... but we need more than just on paper awesome...we need in game awesome and the boost from CCP Tallest will just make them look better on paper but not in practice
Indeed, mainly because we need to evaluate the effects the inertia modification is going to have in game, which is something EFT really can't tell us.
If the accelleration increase is significant enough, the subtle benefits could very well put this thing over the top as far a win factor goes.
One other factor that is very subtle, but could have a significant overall effect would be a reduction for Gallante boats Signature Radius. If it takes a bit longer to target them and get a scram/web on them that lets the better accelleration pay off larger dividends.
Justify it as a function of their organic hull designs, or perhaps an inherent part of all Gallante tech due to their knowledge of Sensor Dampning tech. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
OOooole
nina k Corp
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:41:00 -
[314] - Quote
after 2 yers this OMFG Damage Increase:
All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier
and speed joke boost ? realy
Winter patch will be anothre joke
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Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
60
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:42:00 -
[315] - Quote
Blasters could still use more damage. Since their optimal and falloff is low and the most often operate in falloff, they need a bigger damage advantage in comparison to pulse lasers, either that or increased optimal and falloff.
The penalties on Void should also be reduced because right now there is no point in even using this ammo. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:45:00 -
[316] - Quote
Pretty pleased with all the listed changes. Looking forward to flying all the web-bonused hybrid platforms this winter.
Love the across the board T2 closerange ammo reform. I'm hard just thinking about it.
One request for an additional change: the Thorax and its derivatives all need an additional mid-slot. This would allow them to do scram/web/booster/propmod in an armor configuration or scram/2x lse/prop in a shield configuration. Both are sort of necessary for their respective roles (a slow armor setup needs that web, an unbonused shield tank needs 2 LSEs to get an acceptable quantity of EHP). Personally I would also apply +1 mid to the Vigilant as well, since its current configuration makes it "useable" rather than "better than average"-- not what you'd expect from an extremely expensive faction cruiser. The Deimos and Thorax definitely need a fourth mid though... like *need* need. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
7
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:47:00 -
[317] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Tiger's Spirit wrote:Blaster need more changes for better working.
At least +50% optimal (mega with t2 neutron guns have now 4.5km optimal with antimatter ammo and lvl5 skills) and at least +25% faloff (mega with t2 neutron guns have now 13km faloff with antimatter ammo and lvl5 skills)
After this changes would be 6.75km optimal, with 16.25km falloff. (antimatter)
Stop trying to make blasters like autocannons. They're -NOT- autocannons. Autocannons = Assault Rifles. Blasters = Shotguns. Huge damage at zero range.
Please dont post anymore.
Assault rifle ? Shotgun ? :D megauberlol |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:50:00 -
[318] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote: Spoken like someone who's got no experience flying a hybrid platform.
I suppose so. I've only been flying Gallente gunboats for 3.5 years, with 18 million SP in guns. I apologize for being presumptuous.
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Perdition64
The Xenodus Initiative. ORPHANS OF EVE
12
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:53:00 -
[319] - Quote
Raimo wrote:Valarie Rikeen wrote: We can see that DPS is not too far apart, (768 dps vs 592 dps), yet the speed of a hurricane is 1434 m/s vs the Brutix's 1112 m/s (before the change). Tank is only different by 4k EHP.
thats not really "close" brutix has 25% more damage. also, remember you are comparing a tier 1 BC with a tier 2
Just needed to correct this, read my later post, the real 3 damage mod gank fit overload DPS figures are 965 for Brutix and 905 for Hurricane, sans implants. Also, the tier system is ******** anyway so it's not a good justification, and in the Gallente case, Brutix is the gank BC anyway Myrm. gank DPS vs Cane is even worse, Myrm ganks for only 868 so fix Hybrids AND Drones, eh?
Yeah, dont come to me for fits, I lost my database and have only rumbled back from my slumber BECAUSE of the possibility of where this patch could go. |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:58:00 -
[320] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:Nimrod Nemesis wrote: Spoken like someone who's got no experience flying a hybrid platform.
I suppose so. I've only been flying Gallente gunboats for 3.5 years, with 18 million SP in guns. I apologize for being presumptuous.
I would have stuck with having no experience, tbh. You don't help you case by proving you have no excuse to be so ignorant. |
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Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
25
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Posted - 2011.10.31 20:59:00 -
[321] - Quote
One of my friends and I came up with what I think is an interesting solution based on the RP of what a blaster and rail gun are supposed to be
Right now we have projectiles which have versatile ammo uses and lasers and hybrids which trade damage for range.
Our idea is to change hybrid ammo so that it trades range for cap usage but keeps the damage the same.
So the damage on all large ammo caldari navy L ammo (for instance) would be 23 thermal 32.2 kinetic, but antimatter would have -50% optimal and no cap cost increase, and Iron would have +70% optimal and +120% cap usage
This would mean that gallente ships are still the close range choice and Amarr are still the kings of damage projection, but gallente ships can get out to the range of conflag lasers, they just cost around 2x as much cap to do it.
The RP reason for this is that blasters are basically a ball of plasma generated by the round being fired, and it costs more cap to heat the ammo and keep the plasma hot over that long a distance.
For Rails, the extra cap is used to fire the projectile faster off the rail achieving a better time on target and thus more range but the shell is lighter resulting in the same damage.
Thoughts?
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PhantomTrojan
Shadows of Fornax E C L I P S E
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:01:00 -
[322] - Quote
Alex Harumichi wrote:KFenn wrote: Stop trying to make blasters like autocannons. They're -NOT- autocannons.
Autocannons = Assault Rifles. Blasters = Shotguns. Huge damage at zero range.
Agree on this. Problem is, when talking about medium and large blasters: 1) The ships need to be fast and nimble enough to be able to apply that zero range damage effectively. They aren't. 2) The damage that blasters do when in their optimal needs to be large enough to compensate for their tiny operational envelope. It isn't. ACs are strictly better than blasters in almost all situations (talking about actual pvp here, not laboratory conditions), even more so considering the hulls that use them are also significantly faster than blaster hulls. This buff, unfortunately, does not change that equation (especially since it also contains a huge AC buff, which I see no reason for). agreed
Blaster barely have more damage than autocannon y they have way less range than anything else. Blasters needs something around 40% damage boots to compensate for their crappy range and tracking at that range. |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
31
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:07:00 -
[323] - Quote
Quote:** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.)
Light Electron Blaster II: PG 4 Light Ion Blaster II: PG 7 200mm Autocannon II: PG 4 150mm Autocannon II: PG 2 125mm Autocannon II: PG 1
Really? Best 200mm autocannon has (half,same) PG of (Ions,Electrons) and (Ions,Electrons) have very low PG requirements?
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
212
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:13:00 -
[324] - Quote
I approve of this improvement. |
ArmyOfMe
TEDDYBEARS. Excuses.
41
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:16:00 -
[325] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Quote:** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.) Light Electron Blaster II: PG 4 Light Ion Blaster II: PG 7 200mm Autocannon II: PG 4 150mm Autocannon II: PG 2 125mm Autocannon II: PG 1 Really? Best 200mm autocannon has (half,same) PG of (Ions,Electrons) and (Ions,Electrons) have very low PG requirements? Shhh, its because blasters do so much more damage then ac's
Oh wait......
CCP, for the love of god boost the deimos..... |
Perdition64
The Xenodus Initiative. ORPHANS OF EVE
12
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:21:00 -
[326] - Quote
I think I managed to replicate the fit Raimo was talking about,
I stuck 2 nano's in the lows of the hurricane though.
What we end up with, CCP Tallest is this comparison:
965 dps vs 810 dps + 2 medium neuts 8-9km effective range vs 13-14km 1,112m/s vs 1400+ (with 2 nanos and MWD on I get 1552 m/s) Cap usage vs 0 cap usage Oh, and very very similar tank.
Now, honestly CCP Tallest, 1v1, which one would you use.
I think it is clear that a mere +20% tracking and a reduction in cap usage will not resolve the issues blasters have at the moment. The buff needs to go deeper . An increase to DPS on top, 10-20% would make blasters competetive. These comparisons are 1v1 at close range, very idealistic conditions for the blasters, yet they're still losing. What does this say. |
Garbad theWeak
23
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:21:00 -
[327] - Quote
So I plugged in the changes into pyfa and compared a hellcat vs. a new and improved blaster thron. Both have standards you would expect -- heavy cap booster, mwd, and web + scram.
Megathron: 1245 DPS (928 excluding ogres) 105k EHP 2x as good tracking as the abby (~.06) a heavy neut almost cap stable, with the booster can run mwd + neut for several minutes ~40% faster with MWD on
Abby: 918 DPS (760 excludign drones) 177k EHP, also has much better resist profile (better reps) can fire to 45k using scorch not at all cap stable
So the mega is faster, does substantially more dps, tracks better, is cap stable, and can neut out to 25k. The abby has far, far more EHP and range but has cap issues. In a fleet, you can reasonably expect a damnation improving resists, further magnifying the EHP gap. You can also expect reps from a gaurdian, who has energy to waste, reducing or eliminating the cap problems of the abby.
So which would you rather have: ~30% more dps at close range or up to 5x as much range and 2x as much ehp? I think the hellcat clearly wins. |
SilverTrav
Aequitas Legare
0
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:23:00 -
[328] - Quote
Zerkuron wrote:I don`t use Missiles or rockets so I can`t say anythig about this. I didn`t take E-War into account, but I think ECM is good as it is, but the other E-WAR should use a look at. Especially Dampener need an overhaul. (Maybe a fall-off or opti reduction instead of longer tergeting time, which only assist ecm but is in no way a standalone effect for use)
This doesn't seem like the right forum thread for an EWAR post... but in case you didn't know, dampeners have scripts which DO reduce the range at which you can effectively attack at by decreasing the max targeting range with one type of script, or reduce scan resolution (lock time) with the other type of script. With no scripts they affect both. Who cares if your falloff is 60+ km if you can only target 3km (stupid serpentis missions.....) and if it takes you 40 seconds to lock something then they have that much more time to be dishing out damage to you before you can return fire (provided you aren't using weaponry that doesn't require a target lock of course) so I don't agree that they don't work as a stand-alone effect.
TL/DR
What does EWAR have to do with hybrid boost? |
Perdition64
The Xenodus Initiative. ORPHANS OF EVE
12
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:25:00 -
[329] - Quote
Garbad theWeak wrote:
So which would you rather have: ~30% more dps at close range or up to 5x as much range and 2x as much ehp? I think the hellcat clearly wins.
Many comparisons CCP, all showing the changes to be somewhat lacklustre. Your move. :)
Would be nice to get CCP Tallest's ideas following feedback, pretty soon. |
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
1
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Posted - 2011.10.31 21:31:00 -
[330] - Quote
A few insights and ideas regarding Hybrids, solutions on how they could be fixed, and further elaboration on some of the notions provided in earlier pages.
1) Sniper Mechanics (Probing) and Railguns
It is relatively pointless to have a weapon system based around 150km+ range using today's mechanics. As it is, you can warp directly to any target that is at least 50km from you by having a warp-to anchor at least 150km in line with your opponent. Whether that is a covert ops that entered system, warped away, dropped probes, then warped to 100 on the hostiles sitting off gate, or simply a bookmark in the general direction of your opponents, long range pilots are screwed if the close range hostiles are well prepared. If longer away than 150k, a warp to zero warp-in is easily done and adios long range fleet.
I assume these mechanics are intentional by CCP, and until they are changed there's not much hope for Railguns beyond killmail whoring with a non-zero damage entry on a killmail, or trying to pick off ships at ultra long range while aligned to warp (non-fleet, as any fleet will tank the damage and repair).
2. Blasters and their Niche
Autocannons provide an immense amount of DPS, most notably with their ability to switch ammo types to what can punch a hole through hostile's tanks the best and hit out even past Pulse ranges. Even if blasters had a 10% advantage over projectiles, they don't have the ability to adapt to the situation and remain inferior.
How I would fix blasters: Give medium/large blasers about a 30%+ boost to damage, an optimal under web range, virtually no falloff, and ungodly tracking. A battleship could hit a cruiser afterburning with a single web under 10k at max traversal (maybe not for full). A cruiser the same with a frigate. A frigate, while WMDing, should be able to in a tight orbit hit full force against larger ships with small blasters, and/or remain effective against other frigates in a knife fight. Keep Gallente ships slow and fat (no change), and allow blasters to provide a zone of death around the fleet. Any hostile that enters that zone should effectively bend over and kiss its ass goodbye. That's a niche that is missing from EVE, and would fit nicely with teh blaster paradigm. Slow, Fat, and up close the deadliest motherf*cker you've ever seen.
This would allow them to keep their armor bonuses as well, as active tanks would be beneficial for solo/small gang warfare. It wouldn't fix their viability in larger fleet warfare however, but below might be a start.
3. Fixing Gallente ships: Drone viability in PvP
If you did (2) above, the only thing missing would be the pvp viability of larger drones. Small/Medium/ECM drones have good viability in combat, but Heavy's should actually be expected to outrun Battleships (and even Battlecruisers) within the drone control range of ships. Boost Heavy's to about the speed of Mediums, Mediums slightly faster, and keep lights where they are at. Increase the effectiveness of utility drones so that they aren't useless. Add light/medium webbing drones so that Gallente ships could, in theory, catch targets that are outside their own web range. Yes, this would also be a double edged sword, as web drones would ALSO act as an achilles heal of Gallente ships for kiting purposes... see #2. Further, why the hell doesn't the Myrmidon have a 100m bandwidth and the Hyperion/Proteus have (or the ability to have) 125m bandwidth?
Allow heavier drones to play a larger role in Nullsec warfare with fleets rolling across grid, and nuance some of the smaller drone bays of Gallente ships slightly larger, and suddenly having a complement of Gallente ships around could be rather beneficial.
4. Balancing Hybrids
One of EVE's greatest attributes is that it has vast differences between common uses of game mechanics, compared to other MMO's which in many instances simply change the graphics and/or buttons for DPS classes and call them different. Hybrids need their niche, and while Railguns have always had theirs (max range, even though game mechanics make it useless in practice), blasters have lost theirs. Give them a new one (see #2 above for an idea), and not just a "bleh" second rate damage system that can't outdamage Projectiles in practice, nor get their weapons in optimal ranges. If you just boost the speed of Gallente ships as a crutch for a broken weapon system, you aren't really fixing the problem, and gallente ships will either remain pointless or pass a tipping point where they invalidate one or more other races comparable ship types. |
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